Curious Workmanship...

[Rand]

This phrase shows up several times in the Book of Mormon. Nephi describes his manner of building the ship as "Curious Workmanship". I have long been subconsciously pestered by that phrase. The Liahona was constructed with "Curious Workmanship". What does that mean? In Ether 10:27, they used curious workmanship as well as in Alma 37:39.

On a perhaps tangent path, I have long wondered how the ancient inhabitants of the Americas work stones to fit together like they did. The would mate two stones together, with the two sides of the stones that would join, being rough and uneven, and yet the two stones, sometimes being very large, would fit together so tightly that there was not space at all, even so tight that water would not leak out between the two stones. How did they carve, or shape the two stones, appearing very rough on the mating surface, and still they fit snuggly together? I wonder if that is an example of curious workmanship?

Nephi "did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men."

Just prior to this statement in 1 Ne 17:50 Nephi says: "If God had commanded me to do all things I could do them. If he should command me that I should say unto this water, be thou earth, it should be earth; and if I should say it, it would be done.

51 And now, if the Lord has such great power, and has wrought so many miracles among the children of men, how is it that he cannot instruct me, that I should build a ship?"

Is this the way the Lord taught Nephi to build the ship? Did Nephi command the materials to take the shape that he wanted them to take, and by faith shaped the materials in a manner of "Curious Workmanship"?

It brought to mind the account in Visions of Glory where the temple in Independence is being built and there are people shaping the stone with their hands, like we might mold soft clay. Is that "Curious Workmanship"?

Any thoughts?

[Michelle]

I think about this too. I don't think it involved special tech (like we think of today) and machinery.

I think it is a combination of inspiration, tools of some kind (though probably mechanical, not digital) and priesthood power.

[gardener4life]

I think it does mean a superior stronger work. But it doesn't necessarily mean 'sci fi' for that particular day, but who knows. I also think curious workmanship is an interesting phrase. The scriptures are so full of cool and interesting things that will catch our attention if we're trying to listen.

[marc]

In my opinion and experience, "curious workmanship" is a compliment from someone who is skilled in a trade and yet cannot quite explain how something was built, which requires skill in a trade to build it.

[Alaris]

Curious means it was unlike anything they had ever seen... So much so that it peeked their curiosity.

[JohnnyL]

This phrase shows up several times in the Book of Mormon. Nephi describes his manner of building the ship as "Curious Workmanship". I have long been subconsciously pestered by that phrase. The Liahona was constructed with "Curious Workmanship". What does that mean? In Ether 10:27, they used curious workmanship as well as in Alma 37:39.

On a perhaps tangent path, I have long wondered how the ancient inhabitants of the Americas work stones to fit together like they did. The would mate two stones together, with the two sides of the stones that would join, being rough and uneven, and yet the two stones, sometimes being very large, would fit together so tightly that there was not space at all, even so tight that water would not leak out between the two stones. How did they carve, or shape the two stones, appearing very rough on the mating surface, and still they fit snuggly together? I wonder if that is an example of curious workmanship?

Nephi "did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men."

Just prior to this statement in 1 Ne 17:50 Nephi says: "If God had commanded me to do all things I could do them. If he should command me that I should say unto this water, be thou earth, it should be earth; and if I should say it, it would be done.

51 And now, if the Lord has such great power, and has wrought so many miracles among the children of men, how is it that he cannot instruct me, that I should build a ship?"

Is this the way the Lord taught Nephi to build the ship? Did Nephi command the materials to take the shape that he wanted them to take, and by faith shaped the materials in a manner of "Curious Workmanship"?

It brought to mind the account in Visions of Glory where the temple in Independence is being built and there are people shaping the stone with their hands, like we might mold soft clay. Is that "Curious Workmanship"?

Any thoughts?

When I read "curious workmanship", to me it means something man is not familiar with; workmanship/ product completely out of place or time.

[Rand]

Good comments. My interest is why the word curious was used instead of intricate, wonderful, fine, flawless, etc. Those are all words that would be used to define excellent workmanship. But curious? Seems a strange word to use unless it was truly and unusual manner of working the wood, metal, etc.
He also said, "neither did I build the ship after the manner of men". He didn't say the manner of men up until that time. He said the manner of men, period.

[oneClimbs]

Nice; exact; subtile; made with care. - Webster’s 1828

[passionflower]

Rand,
The word "curious workmanship" as used in the BOM has occult meaning. And the descriptions above me all fit under this umbrella. The reason words like, "intricate, wonderful, fine, flawless, etc" are not used is because "excellent workmanship" isn't the true distinguishing factor between the boat Nephi built and a Phoenician boat, for example.

To put it more in our own vernacular, Nephi directed the building of the boat that took his family, etc to the Americas in a truly spiritual manner.

Remember on one of JS visits to the Angel Moroni, who shocks him for allowing the thought to cross his mind that he might use the gold plates for personal gain? Don't underestimate this experience. It was much stronger than walking across a carpet and touching a doorknob. Something similar happens to Laman and Lemuel when they refuse to support Nephi in building the boat. But this time, it was not an angel, but Nephi himself who shocked his brethren to the point he almost killed them.

Nephi was granted angelic powers in building the boat. Everything about it was revealed from heaven.

You bet it was of a "curious workmanship"

[oneClimbs]

v

[oneClimbs]

Rand,
The word "curious workmanship" as used in the BOM has occult meaning. And the descriptions above me all fit under this umbrella. The reason words like, "intricate, wonderful, fine, flawless, etc" are not used is because "excellent workmanship" isn't the true distinguishing factor between the boat Nephi built and a Phoenician boat, for example.

Occult? The word occurs several times in the Bible. Who can forget the "curious" girdle of the ephod?

Exodus 28:8,27-28
Exodus 29:5
Exodus 39:5,20-21
Exodus 35:32
Leviticus 8:7

"And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen."

"And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,"

I pointed out in a recent post (link below) how Nephi appears very familiar with the scriptures, particularly Moses and the Exodus. Note that almost all of the instances of "curious" are within the books of Moses, Exodus and Leviticus. So instead of theoretically tieing the word curious to Joseph Smith and "occult" meanings, how about considering an attribution to Nephi and his knowledge of the Books of Moses?

http://oneclimbs.com/2017/09/05/behind- ... knowledge/

Othe definitions are: Wrought with care and art; elegant; neat; finished; as a curious girdle; curious work Exodus 28:8 and 30. Rare; singular;

Occult stuff is nothing but a bunch of mimicry and plagiarism from authentic sources. You can find references to a number of good things in the occult. It's like badly written religious fan fiction.

[passionflower]

Rand,
The word "curious workmanship" as used in the BOM has occult meaning. And the descriptions above me all fit under this umbrella. The reason words like, "intricate, wonderful, fine, flawless, etc" are not used is because "excellent workmanship" isn't the true distinguishing factor between the boat Nephi built and a Phoenician boat, for example.

Occult? The word occurs several times in the Bible. Who can forget the "curious" girdle of the ephod?

Exodus 28:8,27-28
Exodus 29:5
Exodus 39:5,20-21
Exodus 35:32
Leviticus 8:7

"And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen."

"And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,"

I pointed out in a recent post (link below) how Nephi appears very familiar with the scriptures, particularly Moses and the Exodus. Note that almost all of the instances of "curious" are within the books of Moses, Exodus and Leviticus. So instead of theoretically tieing the word curious to Joseph Smith and "occult" meanings, how about considering an attribution to Nephi and his knowledge of the Books of Moses?

http://oneclimbs.com/2017/09/05/behind- ... knowledge/

Othe definitions are: Wrought with care and art; elegant; neat; finished; as a curious girdle; curious work Exodus 28:8 and 30. Rare; singular;

Occult stuff is nothing but a bunch of mimicry and plagiarism from authentic sources. You can find references to a number of good things in the occult. It's like badly written religious fan fiction.

What in the world are you describing as "occult stuff"?
The accurate and specific meaning of the word "occult" does fit in perfectly in these OT verses you cite, Nephi knew what it meant, and used it in the same manner.
The descriptive term " curious workmanship" is indeed an occult term in its' true sense, and exploring it will indeed answer the honest questions Rand poses.

Don't be so easily offended at a "word".

Simply put, Occult is a spiritual term whose best English synonym would equal="Hidden".

This makes every symbol in the temple "occult" in nature. Temple symbology shares this with the parables throughout the scriptures, particularly those of Jesus. The idea is to "reveal" and then "conceal". Ask any Temple President and you will not only know this, but also that I was making no imaginiative theoretical tie in, as you said, when I brought JS and his very bad experience with Angel Moroni into the picture.

[Rand]

Occult can be an uncomfortable word, because of its common usages. "The Occult" is an uncomfortable idea. Your usage of the word is a little different than the common man's understanding. It does add a dimension to the discussion.

[oneClimbs]

What in the world are you describing as "occult stuff"?
The accurate and specific meaning of the word "occult" does fit in perfectly in these OT verses you cite, Nephi knew what it meant, and used it in the same manner.
The descriptive term " curious workmanship" is indeed an occult term in its' true sense, and exploring it will indeed answer the honest questions Rand poses.

Don't be so easily offended at a "word".

Simply put, Occult is a spiritual term whose best English synonym would equal="Hidden".

This makes every symbol in the temple "occult" in nature. Temple symbology shares this with the parables throughout the scriptures, particularly those of Jesus. The idea is to "reveal" and then "conceal". Ask any Temple President and you will not only know this, but also that I was making no imaginiative theoretical tie in, as you said, when I brought JS and his very bad experience with Angel Moroni into the picture.

I'm very familiar with temple symbology, probably a little obsessed with it in fact. I'm not offended by the word occult I just don't think the application is justifiable or clear to this audience.

The definition of the word "curious" does relate to fine craftsmanship, that can be demonstrated. I don't see where curious is or needs to be associated with 'hidden' things, that seems like reading too much into it. The word occult also carries the baggage of being long associated with magic arts and even satanism. Up until now, you are first person I've encountered who has used it in a positive sense describing LDS theology. To me it feels like someone asking their non-member friend, "Hey, would you like to come to my cult?" Then the friend objects uncomfortably and the response is, "I mean 'cult' in its pure sense, a group of people who pay devotion to something." Yeah, you're using the word correctly, but in spite of the baggage it carries and ultimately the failure of its ability to communicate your idea. In the context of this exchange, I don't even think the word "occult" or hidden were even necessary to make your point.

Both the liahona and the ship were said to have been crafted with curious workmanship. Nephi even said that his brothers noted that the work was "exceedingly fine" which is synonymous with "curious." The craftsmanship was impressive, perhaps beyond or at the extremes of human ability. They were still physical objects and at least for the ship, there was a human hand involved in the actual construction. This doesn't prove God's hand was involved, it certainly was, and suggests it to the human mind, but there is still room for doubt, these being physical objects and all.

So the fact that they were "curiously" constructed could be language that Nephi uses to indicate the divine hand or he could have just been trying to emphasize that these objects were extremely well-crafted. On another level, the language here could fulfil the same purpose that symbols do in being unique or vague enough to allow different ideas to be communicated to different people.

[gardener4life]

mainstream English speakers use the word 'occult' when describing rituals of darkness. Even if a dictionary book says otherwise this is their frame of mind and what kind of images they have. Therefore I suggest you don't use it with anything of true religion.

[passionflower]

Occult can be an uncomfortable word, because of its common usages. "The Occult" is an uncomfortable idea. Your usage of the word is a little different than the common man's understanding. It does add a dimension to the discussion.

After reading all the feedback, I see I have done nothing but upset people, so granted. My apologies. Maby the word "hidden" would have gone over better.

To get back to your question, Rand, I believe the description of the Sword of Laban is interesting:
"And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel." ( 1Nephi 4:9 )

A very fine and very rare sword indeed in both workmanship and materials, yet not described as being of curious workmanship.

When the descriptive phrase "curious workmanship" is used, I believe something is being described that is otherworldly.

If anyone is not prone to react to the word "occult" ( it also has medical usage, etc ) PM me. We could really open up this discussion.

[oneClimbs]

Passionflower, nobody is “upset” with the word, you just didn’t preface what you meant by it originally. It could be that curious implies otherworldly but the word “occult” carries some heavy baggage that say, “hidden,” does not. Feel free to use the word, but I’d unpack your context a little.

“Occult” is usually a slur in these circles, I’m only suggesting on clarifying your premise a little more in this crowd.

[passionflower]

Passionflower, nobody is “upset” with the word, you just didn’t preface what you meant by it originally. It could be that curious implies otherworldly but the word “occult” carries some heavy baggage that say, “hidden,” does not. Feel free to use the word, but I’d unpack your context a little.

“Occult” is usually a slur in these circles, I’m only suggesting on clarifying your premise a little more in this crowd.

Your criticism is justified. I didn't preface or explain before I dropped the bomb, and I take the paddled on my behind feedback as well deserved. It is a cultural thing with me as it is everyday MO for a dutch person to be very direct, blunt and straight to the point. Sigh.... I know this is not an endearing trait to an american audience. Sorry.

So back to all that curious workmanship. And I will be disagreeing with you that "curious workmanship" is just referring to extraordinary skilled work. But I can see why you might think so.

I believe the description "curious workmanship" is always being used in a spiritual manner. It seems to me, and I am just talking off the top of my head, that all the OT references to "curious workmanship" are about holy items, rituals, or things pertaining to them. In The BOM, "curious" workman abound during times of righteousness and accompanying prosperity. However, in Acts 19:19 this is said: "Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver".

I am taking it for granted that "curious works" and "curious arts" are synonymous. I wouldn't think that the books of "curious" arts talked about here were just books about how to do art "really really well". Why burn them to the tune of a loss of 50,000 pieces of silver worth of books if that's all the word "curious" meant?

What would you or anyone think of substituting for the word "occult" the word "sealed"? Two thirds of the BOM is "sealed". I am not certain what this looked liked visually ( do you ?), but spiritually and literally speaking, two thirds of the BOM was hidden away from us by this sealing. Doesn't the open part of the BOM tell us that this sealed part contains information from clear back to the foundation of the world? and perhaps the oaths and rites of the secret combinations?

Whenever I think of scriptural boat building, I think of Noah's Ark, too. Every now and then a thread comes up holding up the premise of antediluvian peoples having to be high tech and scientifically advanced in the same manner we are today, with Noahs' Ark being held up as proof. But Joseph Smith stated that the Ark was the first floating device ever made, and no boats or water craft of any kind existed before it did. ( I read this in the History of the Church as compiled by BH Roberts, I can't remember exactly where ). Therefore, in my book it stands to reason the Ark was another job of "curious workmanship", the likes of which no one had ever seen before with every inch of the construction being the result of revelation. I am only making an assumption, but I think it's rational one, at least considering what I think "curious workmanship" means.

[JohnnyL]

Occult can be an uncomfortable word, because of its common usages. "The Occult" is an uncomfortable idea. Your usage of the word is a little different than the common man's understanding. It does add a dimension to the discussion.

"The Occult" vs. "occult".

[JohnnyL]

Occult can be an uncomfortable word, because of its common usages. "The Occult" is an uncomfortable idea. Your usage of the word is a little different than the common man's understanding. It does add a dimension to the discussion.

After reading all the feedback, I see I have done nothing but upset people, so granted. My apologies. Maby the word "hidden" would have gone over better.

To get back to your question, Rand, I believe the description of the Sword of Laban is interesting:
"And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel." ( 1Nephi 4:9 )

A very fine and very rare sword indeed in both workmanship and materials, yet not described as being of curious workmanship.

When the descriptive phrase "curious workmanship" is used, I believe something is being described that is otherworldly.

If anyone is not prone to react to the word "occult" ( it also has medical usage, etc ) PM me. We could really open up this discussion.

Exactly.

There is no knowledge nowadays that could make a Liahona. It was, and still is, out of place and time.

Nephi received knowledge "from time to time" about how to build the ship. No one, not just Phoenicians, could build a ship like that. It was out of place and time.

[passionflower]

Occult can be an uncomfortable word, because of its common usages. "The Occult" is an uncomfortable idea. Your usage of the word is a little different than the common man's understanding. It does add a dimension to the discussion.

After reading all the feedback, I see I have done nothing but upset people, so granted. My apologies. Maby the word "hidden" would have gone over better.

To get back to your question, Rand, I believe the description of the Sword of Laban is interesting:
"And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel." ( 1Nephi 4:9 )

A very fine and very rare sword indeed in both workmanship and materials, yet not described as being of curious workmanship.

When the descriptive phrase "curious workmanship" is used, I believe something is being described that is otherworldly.

If anyone is not prone to react to the word "occult" ( it also has medical usage, etc ) PM me. We could really open up this discussion.

Exactly.

There is no knowledge nowadays that could make a Liahona. It was, and still is, out of place and time.

Nephi received knowledge "from time to time" about how to build the ship. No one, not just Phoenicians, could build a ship like that. It was out of place and time.

You aren't stopping here, are you? Please continue.

[Teancum]

I find it very interesting that the liahona had writing on it that was easy to read and was changed from time to time.

1Nephi 16

28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.

29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.

Alma 37

39 And behold, there cannot any man work after the manner of so curious a workmanship. And behold, it was prepared to show unto our fathers the course which they should travel in the wilderness.

40 And it did work for them according to their afaith in God; therefore, if they had faith to believe that God could cause that those spindles should point the way they should go, behold, it was done; therefore they had this miracle, and also many other miracles wrought by the power of God, day by day.

41 Nevertheless, because those miracles were worked by asmall means it did show unto them marvelous works. They were bslothful, and forgot to exercise their faith and diligence and then those marvelous works ceased, and they did not progress in their journey;

42 Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did anot travel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.

This, to me, is reminiscent of today's digital computer driven wristwatch. I'm not saying that is what the liahona was, but the description seems similar to technology that we have today. Also, devices like these today are not "made by man" in the sense that no man could make such intricate circuitry (our hands are too big) - i.e. those devices are machines made by other machines. Here, though, the scriptures tell us that The Lord prepared it. If he could cause the rocks to be turned into T.V. sets or other miracles, then there is no end to the possibilities that The Lord could do.

[Michelle]

“While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

“After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/js?lang=eng

These are some pretty "curious" passages I have wondered about.

[JohnnyL]

Nephi worked metal very well, and knew metalworking. The Liahona was, no doubt, also of excellent workmanship. But even thought the sword of Laban was of excellent, it wasn't curious. And this is interesting, because when Nephi first sees it, he IS curious about it, enough to draw it without seemingly even realizing it (or close enough). He is very impressed with it, perhaps even in awe of it. But the Liahona is not just well-made, it is beyond his understanding of working metal, because of the spiritualness of it. No mortal could have made it. The ship was also "strange" to man--no mortal could have taught him how to make it.

[JohnnyL]

I find it very interesting that the liahona had writing on it that was easy to read and was changed from time to time.

1Nephi 16

28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.

29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.

Alma 37

39 And behold, there cannot any man work after the manner of so curious a workmanship. And behold, it was prepared to show unto our fathers the course which they should travel in the wilderness.

40 And it did work for them according to their afaith in God; therefore, if they had faith to believe that God could cause that those spindles should point the way they should go, behold, it was done; therefore they had this miracle, and also many other miracles wrought by the power of God, day by day.

41 Nevertheless, because those miracles were worked by asmall means it did show unto them marvelous works. They were bslothful, and forgot to exercise their faith and diligence and then those marvelous works ceased, and they did not progress in their journey;

42 Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did anot travel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.

This, to me, is reminiscent of today's digital computer driven wristwatch. I'm not saying that is what the liahona was, but the description seems similar to technology that we have today. Also, devices like these today are not "made by man" in the sense that no man could make such intricate circuitry (our hands are too big) - i.e. those devices are machines made by other machines. Here, though, the scriptures tell us that The Lord prepared it. If he could cause the rocks to be turned into T.V. sets or other miracles, then there is no end to the possibilities that The Lord could do.

Reminiscent, but much more.

How well it worked was based on/ "powered by" faith. It contained directions from God--like a live stream, or updated every time they looked. It was a super-GPS, showing which route was best, taking into consideration food, water, weather, enemies, emergency supplies, etc.

I imagine the closest we can get to that is a great GPS + dowsing, and even that can't come close to it.