Australia seals it's fate, SSM vote 61% yes

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Daniel2
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Re: Australia seals it's fate, SSM vote 61% yes

Post by Daniel2 »

Fiannan wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:32 pm
Daniel2 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:31 pm
Fiannan wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:25 pm
Science shows that the more older brothers a man has, he's exponentially more likely to end up gay.
One study that was never replicated.

Also, correlation does not imply causation. Often the true variables are overlooked.
Your sources are obviously out of date. These studies and more have been replicated in multiple studies across multiple countries and in multiple specialties.
Please list them.
I have. No one wanted to invest the time in listening to the four hours of discussion about it I posted previously. But here's two links again:

http://www.mormonstories.org/byu-profes ... sexuality/

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/gay ... 02025?mt=2

Now, assuming you decide you won't listen to them: if you won't take the time or effort to educate yourself, why should I?
Last edited by Daniel2 on November 17th, 2017, 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Daniel2
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Re: Australia seals it's fate, SSM vote 61% yes

Post by Daniel2 »

Fiannan wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:32 pm And you never answered the question Daniel2. Is there a moral basis for denying same sex relations and marriage between relatives - i.e. a mother and grown daughter?
In all honestly, can't think of a secular reason why it should be denied. Can you, other than "God said no"?

But then again, presumably, sometimes God says "yes" to incest, as he did multiple times in The Bible:
In ancient times, tribal nations preferred endogamous marriage – marriage to one's relatives;[1] the ideal marriage was usually that to a cousin, and it was often forbidden for an eldest daughter to even marry outside the family.[1] Marriage to a half-sister, for example, is considered incest by most nations today, but was common behaviour for Egyptian pharaohs; similarly, the Book of Genesis portrays Sarah as marrying Abraham, her half-brother, without criticising the close genetic relationship between them,[2] and the Book of Samuel treats the marriage of a royal prince to his half-sister as unusual, rather than wicked.[1]

One of the most notable features of all the lists is that sexual activity between a man and his own daughter is not explicitly forbidden. Although the first relation mentioned after the Levitical prohibition of sex with "near kin" names that of "thy father",[10] it must be taken into account that the Hebrew original text only addresses male Jews with regard to their female relatives.[11] The talmud argues that the absence is because the prohibition was obvious, especially given the proscription against a relationship with a granddaughter,[12] although some biblical scholars have instead proposed that it was originally in the list, but was then accidentally left out from the copy on which modern versions of the text ultimately depend, due to a mistake by the scribe.[13] The second list in the Holiness code noticeably differs from the first by not including the closer relatives, and it might be assumed that obviousness is the explanation here as well.[1] One might argue that the explicit prohibition against engaging in sexual activity with a woman as well as with her daughter,[14] implicitly forbids sexual activity between a man and his daughter. However, the rationale might suggest otherwise (the original text is unclear here), since it mentions only that "they" (i.e., the woman and the daughter) are related.[15] John Calvin did not consider the father-daughter-relation to be explicitly forbidden by the bible, but regarded it as immoral nevertheless.[16]

Apart from the case of the daughter, the first incest list in the Holiness code roughly produces the same rules as were followed in early (pre-Islamic) Arabic culture;[1] in Islam, these pre-existing rules were made statutory.[13] The rules in this list are, however, ignored in several prominent cases in the Torah – Jacob is described as having married his first wife's sister,[17][18][19] and Abraham as having a father in common with Sarah[2] (rather than a mother, which would have been permitted by the list).

Ezekiel implies[13] that, in his time, marriage between a man and his stepmother, or his daughter-in-law, or his sister, were frequent.[20] This situation seems to be the target of the Deuteronomic version of the incest prohibition, which only addresses roughly the same three issues[1][13] (though prohibiting the mother-in-law in place of the daughter-in-law). Early rabbinic commentators instead argue that the Deuteronomic list is so short because the other possible liaisons were obviously prohibited, and these three were the only liaisons difficult to detect, on account of the fact that, in their day, a man's stepmother, half-sister, and mother-in-law usually lived in the same house as the man (prior to any liaison).[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_the_Bible
Not to mention the children of Adam and Eve, who would have had to have entered into incestuous marriages to people the earth, if one believes the scriptural account... and let alone that many Latter-day Saints have historically taught that Elohim had relations with his daughter, Mary, in order to beget their son, Jesus (thus making him Mary's half brother/half son). So..... maybe religion isn't always consistent, either... Oh, bother! ;)

Todd
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Re: Australia seals it's fate, SSM vote 61% yes

Post by Todd »

Daniel2 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:05 pm
Todd wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:18 pm Once again, thank for your openness and clarification.

My next question is, did you know you were gay or had you already had an encounter (sexual or otherwise) with another man before you married your wife. And if so, why did you marry her? Was it due to overt pressure from peers/parents/church or was it perceived pressure? Or a combo of both.

Also, did you serve a mission in the church (or were you ever a member) and if so how did that factor into your decision to marry a woman.
Great questions, Todd. Thank you for asking.

I've known since I was five years old that I was more drawn to men than women. Prior to puberty, I (like other children with no sexual experience of their own) had no mental frame of context to understand what 'sexual attraction' was, but I remember, as a child, seeing male bodies and finding them beautiful in ways that I didn't feel when looking at women. Namely, when my father and four older brothers and I went to the gym to play sports, I was drawn to watching the male form. Over the years, I had many ongoing, reoccurring dreams of snuggling up to a warm, hairy-chested body and feeling a sense of profound peace and contentment as I ran my fingers through the hair (neither my father nor brothers are hairy-chested, and I'm unaware of any male figures from my childhood with whom I had personal contact with who have that physical trait. Never had I seen porn of any sort, and I was never abused physically, sexually, or otherwise, having had a great relationship with both parents and all my siblings). I had always assumed it was an animal when I was younger--but as my body transformed during puberty, the body came further into shape, and I realized it was a man that I was snuggled up together with. I loved the sense of peace, security, and pure love that emanated from our shared, entwined nakedness (which actually wasn't sexual in nature, at first, but ultimately became more so, throughout my teenage years).

Throughout my elementary school years, I had crushes on several of my fellow (male) classmates, but due to a few 'close calls' of expressing too much affection, I learned that the term 'gay' and 'sodomite' (neither of which I had ever identified as, since I didn't even know what they meant) were socially repugnant and were associated with boys expressing affection for other boys. I learned carefully to hide any of my feelings of affection for my fellow boy classmates/friends/acquaintances, and, like most other kids learning to navigate the social norms, had 'girl friends' by passing notes in class (the sort that read, "Will you go out with me? check the yes box for yes, check the no box for no'), and went as far as <gasp> sitting NEXT to my "girlfriends" at lunch or holding hands at recess.

The only encounter I had with a boy, sexual or otherwise, was when I was 11-years-old. I had hit puberty early (at age 10), and a fellow classmate and I were assigned to share a tent at Boy Scout camp one weekend. He wasn't LDS, and was by far more aware of sex than I was. As we stripped to our underwear before bed. It became clear we were both interested in exploring each others' bodies, and we ended up playing 'doctor,' of sorts, that included some mutual touching. Since that time, both two Bishops and two different LDS therapists I've counseled with through LDS Social Services have assured me that that type of interaction was/is fairly common around puberty, and that boys in close quarters will often engage in same-sex touching/play as a means of comparison/learning about their bodies. In the days that followed that incident, however, I was SO mortified that I ended up bearing my testimony to this other boy that I knew that what we had done was wrong, and I hoped he didn't think ill of Mormonism or the LDS church because we actually didn't believe in behaving in such ways and I hoped he would someday consider joining.

After that, masturbation was the only sexual outlet I had for several years, until I was 17. At that time, I decided I had better stop in order to prepare for my mission (as the youngest of 5 sons raised in the mission field overseas and holding great (non-sexual) love and respect for the missionaries who were always regulars at our Sunday dinner table, I never questioned that I would serve a mission). I had heard that the rules at the time suggested 19-year-olds who don't serve missions had had to abstain from masturbation for at least 12 months prior to serving, and since I knew I had made an even worse sin of fooling around with another boy, I figured I'd double that period and abstain from masturbation for at least two years, so that when I met with my bishop I could hopefully show him my sincerity by saying it was all in the past.

I loved my first semester at BYU, but I knew I would have to confess to the bishop and would likely have to spend more time in the repentance processes than other boys due to eventually having to confess not only the years I'd masturbated, but also that one same-sex encounter, so I went several months earlier than my peers to talk to my bishop about getting prepared. Through tears and anguish, I told him everything, including the details of what the other boy and I had done, my ongoing attractions to men and not women, and most of what I've revealed here. Even at that time, I eschewed the title of 'gay' and considered myself straight with the problem that I was attracted to men, not women. My bishop was patient and loving, and he told me that he was inspired by my faithfulness and example of true penance. He promised me, "in the name of the Lord," that I had repented and my sins were as white as snow. He told me that the Lord not only forgave me, but it was as though my sins were washed away in the Atonement. He said, as a Judge appointed in Israel, and with the authority of his holy calling, that I never needed to speak of this again with anyone, and promised, that as I served a mission and followed the path the church recommended, that I should take a beautiful daughter of our Heavenly Father to the temple and that the Lord would bless me with 'natural' affections and that my same-sex attractions would be no more.

I left his office lighter than I had ever felt before. I served a worthy mission, and loved the time I spent in service of the church and spreading the gospel. I was successful and brought many people to join the church. I consumed the scriptures, Doctrines of Salvation, Gospel Doctrine, Mormon Doctrine, Jesus the Christ, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, The Miracle of Forgiveness (ouch!), and every issue of La Liahona (especially the conference ones). I cross referenced my scriptures and became known as the missionary that knew the gospel forward and backward; if other missionaries were teaching Catholics, Evangelicals, or even Jehovah's Witnesses, they would come to me with questions about scriptures. So long as I was clothed entirely in the ideals of the mission, I wasn't bothered by attractions to men, and my struggles with masturbation weren't an issue.

It wasn't until I returned to BYU and started trying to date girls that my difficulties returned. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't find attraction to women. I got along GREAT with many of the women I dated; we had lots of fun, it was always easy to talk, but when it came to even the most chaste kiss or even holding hands, my palms were cold and I always felt a slight revulsion. It felt 'wrong.' As I was working through all of this (along with frequent temple attendance, at least once a week if not more) and daily scripture study and prayer, one morning I was in the shower, and as I used the shower head, I became stimulated enough to the point I couldn't stop myself, and I climaxed. Mortified, I believed (as I had read and studied on my mission) that if one repents and returns to one's sin, then ALL the former instances of sin return upon one's head. Desperate, I knew I had to re-confess all that had happened again. So I went to my (now new) BYU bishop and recited to him all that I have recounted here with the greatest of anguish and all the torment which wracked my soul. Once again, this second bishop listened with time and patience, asked a few questions, and virtually repeated, almost word for word, what the first bishop had promised; my sins were forgiven, I never needed to tell anyone about this again, I should find a good woman and take her to the temple and the Lord would bless me and all of this would 'go away' once I started having 'relations with my wife.' He added that he believed that Satan was trying to get ahold of me because I was one of the great and faithful ones in the pre-mortal existence spoken of in the Pearl of Great Price, and that the devil knew this was the way he could get my soul. This second bishop also added one additional important detail; not only did I never have to bring this up again, he said, but he recommended I avoid bringing this up to the woman I would someday marry... "The Lord remembers this no more, and you have repented. If you were to tell this to her, it would unnecessarily burden your relationship together; it would likely only cause her pain and cause her to question her womanhood... This is now in your past, and I bless you that you will move beyond it as you seek to love the Lord." Again, I walked away feeling lighter, but still unsure.

Several months of maintaining church activity and immersing myself in scriptures, prayer, temple attendance, and dating, I continued to struggle with feelings of attraction towards any of the girls I was dating, certainly not enough to ask one to marry me. It was then that The Daily Universe (BYU's newspaper) ran a weekly ad in the personals that said, "Do You Struggle with Unwanted Same-Sex Attraction? Call Jeff at ***-***-****". I had been avoiding that weekly ad for some time now, believing that if I called, it would show a lack of faith on my part in what the bishops had promised. But I finally decided through thought and prayer that perhaps that ad was an extension of and answer TO some of the promises of what my bishops had blessed me with. One fateful night, I called and spoke with Jeff. Turns out he was a graduate student at BYU who was running the local Evergreen chapter. Evergreen was an unofficial, though closely affiliated, group aimed at providing group 'Reparative Therapy" for men who "struggled with same-sex attraction." He offered to meet with me and see if I would be a good fit. Over the next 6 months, I meet weekly with Jeff Robinson, who's psychological specialty was counseling "SSA-attracted" men to help them "overcome their unwanted SSA." We delved into the very fabric of my emotional life and development. But over six months, we could find none of the alleged triggers that 'cause' homosexual attractions; in stead, I was raised in a loving family with a present father, a non-overbearing mother, four great older brothers, no sexual abuse, no porn exposure, no effeminate mannerisms or isolation from my peers because of feeling different, was good and engaged in sports, well liked and accepted at school, etc. After six months, Jeff said he couldn't really find anything that would account for my same-sex attraction other than the devil trying to delude me, and that if I stayed faithful, he was confident that the Lord would bless me and encouraged me to find a good woman, get married, and follow "The Great Plan of Happiness."

That night, I went home and as I was reading my scriptures, I came across that missionary one that says, "Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every world of the Lord be established." Two or three witnesses. Two bishops... one therapist.... I tried to convince myself, despite any misgivings, that I had had my witnesses of what God wanted me to do. My misgivings were surely Satan. I had to follow their counsel as if the Lord himself had given it to me; I would find a woman, get married, and never tell her or anyone else about my past sins, which, though they had been as scarlet, were now as white as snow and the Lord remembered them not. And so, I did.

And that's how I ended up in a dysfunction, dishonest, and tragic marriage 8 years later. I don't blame the bishops... I have forgiven them for their well-intentioned but horrifically-misguided counsel. They were doing what they believed to be right and likely speaking form their heart, as Elizabeth and some others likely are here. I have accepted that I alone and responsible for my actions, and that if I had had the wherewithal to be open to asking different questions, I would have. In the words of one philosopher, "If I had known better, I would have done better." But I simply didn't have a frame of reference to question the authority figures in my life that I believed spoke the mind, heart, and will of The Lord. The best I could ultimately do, in the circumstances, was be accountable, come forward and tell my wife everything, and try to make restitution as best I could.

Hope that helps, Todd.

Best to you,
D
Thank you for your candor Daniel.

You mentioned your loving family. How did they react to you when you came out as a gay man? Was it when you were leaving your wife? Was your family supportive or did they react negatively?

Also, you mentioned that you left your wife after confessing to her and the bishop that you cheated on her multiple times. Did she still want to make the marriage work? Was she willing to stay with you? Or did you file the divorce paperwork and force her hand because you couldn't do it anymore? Or was it a mutual falling out?

I know that marriage is challenging even under the right conditions. Do you feel like your marriage would have been different if you were able to not cheat on your wife? I'm curious about this because it is not just a gay issue. One of my friend's wife cheated on him because she felt no attraction to him any more. She said their relationship was unnatural and "dead to her." My friend tried to make the marriage work, but in the end she had zero attraction to him (after 22 years of marriage). This was her justification to divorcing him and "moving on" -- Which entailed eventually marrying her old high school boyfriend.

One last thing. You mentioned that you had no problems with masterbation or same sex attraction while you were on your mission. That you were the model missionary -- completely clothed in the ideals of the mission. Why do you think you were not bothered by same sex attraction or had a desire to masterbate?

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Re: Australia seals it's fate, SSM vote 61% yes

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