Is Pleasure same as Joy?

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Juliet
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Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Juliet »

If the purpose of our creation is to have joy, then what about being alive is joyful? Is it an inner sense of peace, that comes from abstaining from worldly things, and if so, why are we here to have joy if worldly things are not meant to be a part of our joy?

Why do we have so many topics on porn, and dieting? Seems every other commercial has either porn, or food advertisements.

Could it be that we have not learned to use food and sex to help us create a fullness of joy, and so instead we are prone to see the negative side and turn what was supposed to make us happy into physical and relationship death modules?

What is the way to overcome the flesh is to actually care for it, nurture it, and pamper it within reasonable boundaries?

When you think about it, why would anyone overeat? It hurts the tummy to overeat. If one was concerned with their well being, then they would be in tune to know not to over eat. Eating the right amounts would allow one to maximize pleasure obtained from food.

If we were obsessed with obtaining sexual utopia, then maybe we would obsess ourselves with finding our beloved to fulfill our deepest desires for sexual loving connection. Who would want a fake sexual experience with a photo when they are obsessed with finding an intimate and eternal experience of bliss with one's beloved?

I think we program ourselves to fail because we don't emphasize the importance of nurturing every last drop of gooey delicious milk out of life.

When we are gods, what are we going to do with all that power? Work 80 hours a week building planets and beings? Why even seek that level of inheritance when we can't so much as eat an ice cream cone in this lowly telestial sphere without feeling bad about it? Or gasp, even think about desiring sex.

Poor poor us.

larsenb
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

It's certainly a pleasure to experience pure joy.

Tough to sort out symantically and because of layered meanings. Probably not worth the effort.

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Thinker
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Thinker »

Pleasure is short terms satisfaction. Joy is deeper, longer sense of happiness. Joy comes by looking at the big picture and progressing - which implies learning to love oneself and others well.

Overeating is a difficult addiction because you can't just quit cold-turkey. Diets generally are wasted money and time - it's pretty basic: eat less and move more. Eating less is about 80% of it... but when you exercise daily (even if it's just 15 minutes hard) - you generally feel like eating better. And much of the decisions are at the grocery store: don't buy junk food - just buy healthy food. Who wants to overeat on vegetables? :)

Sex is more complex because it (ideally ;) ) involves another person, intimacy - which depends on relating well. But how pleasurable and joyful it is when you feel close to someone and then express that sexually!

Michelle
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Michelle »

Wow, I have been working on this problem for over a year. I have even made charts and notes and spent a long time pondering this. What a think to see first things this morning!

I don't think pleasure is the same as joy, but I can think of situations in which they coexist. I can also think of instances in which one may experience pleasure, but not joy: such as gluttony or sexual promiscuity. In fact, in such instances it may be pleasure and sorrow that coexist.

Pleasure seems to be the physical equivalent of joy. Joy being the spiritual equivalent of pleasure.
Their opposites are pain and sorrow.

In relation to your specific examples:

I have found that the prophets have taught that sex is meant to be both pleasurable and joyful, but only when done in righteousness. We have been taught that God put the sexual desire into us and that it is good, so I don't understand why so many people think it is sinful. It is the expression of that desire, whether in thought or action, that determines whether it is experienced in righteousness. Desiring my husband is good both in thought and action. Desiring anyone else in thought or action is sinful and while it may bring temporary pleasure to some, it cannot bring joy only sorrow.

I have found the same about food. This, I think is the more common problem in the time and place where I live. If you study the scriptures about food you see that very few of us are living (or have even been raised to live) according to their instruction when it comes to food.

I was raised on the Standard American Diet and I have the standard American health problems.

I studied the scriptures and changed my diet. Besides cutting out processed food and eating real food in as natural a form as safely possible, (Pres. Benson teaches about this.) one of the biggest changes is to try to eat food in season as much as possible. I have found that the flavor of food changes because you are eating it with periods of a sort of fasting in between. Just a couple of example, the last couple of years I have refrained from eating potatoes and apples except in season. Once they come in season, I can eat them as much as I want until they go back out. I cannot tell you both how delicious they taste and how much I am able to consume of these without any adverse affects. The same with every other fruit and vegetable.

I actually made a chart years ago with the produce as it comes in season in my area divided in two week periods. My menu is built on that, but the cool thing is: when you are eating seasonally the food needs much less prep. You don't have to spice up your apples by putting them in an apple crisp or pie with lots of sugar, because they already taste like candy! The same is true for most produce, you are full and satisfied at the end of the season and crave it when the season comes around again so that you don't need to adulterate it with lots of prep or added ingredients.

One other point, I have found that when I eat food plainly I don't want to overeat. There is literally a moment between one bite and the next when I think, "This is so delicious I want another bite!" and "That was my last bite, it doesn't even taste good right now." Instantly. My body knows what it needs and what it does not. I never overeat or get bloated like that and I am satisfied. (For plain food, think of Daniel not just when he refuses the kings meat, but also later in the book when he needs an explanation of the revelation he received in a dream.)

I spoke about produce, which is probably not too hard for people to imagine liking at least some kind. It turns out it is true of grains as well. I can now eat a bowl of oatmeal with nothing on it and enjoy it until the bite when I am done. And I will enjoy it again, even the next morning, without hesitation. That did not happen overnight, but it did happen more quickly than I thought. That doesn't mean I always eat it plain, I may add fruit or nuts sometimes, but it is possible to enjoy a plain grain. I do the same with pancakes and waffles. I can eat them plain or with fruit or nuts and still enjoy them.

Even meat is eaten seasonally when we refrain except during winter. (I would eat it during cold and famine as well, ;) )

When you get to that point, the ice cream, doesn't really call like it use to because your desire for pleasure and joy are both being met.

One last point, I mentioned that eating seasonally creates a sort of fast for each item that makes it more desirable and delicious when it comes around again. In the Old Testament the Law of Moses actually required the righteous to abstain from sexual intercourse while a woman was on her period as well as the week after it stopped. There is a lot of meaning in this that I won't get into right now, but you can see how "fasting" from intercourse for approximately 2 weeks a month and then "feasting" for two weeks a month might increase the pleasure for both the husband and the wife. Just a pattern I noticed. ;)

Edits are links/quotes added:
Second: food. To a great extent we are physically what we eat. Most of us are acquainted with some of the prohibitions, such as no tea, coffee, tobacco, or alcohol. What need additional emphasis are the positive aspects—the need for vegetables, fruits, and grains, particularly wheat. In most cases, the closer these can be, when eaten, to their natural state— without overrefinement and processing—the healthier we will be. To a significant degree, we are an overfed and undernourished nation digging an early grave with our teeth, and lacking the energy that could be ours because we overindulge in junk foods. I am grateful to know that on this campus you can get apples from vending machines, that you have in your student center a fine salad bar, and that you produce an excellent loaf of natural whole-grain bread. Keep it up and keep progressing in that direction. We need a generation of young people who, as Daniel, eat in a more healthy manner than to fare on the “king’s meat”—and whose countenances show it (see Daniel 1).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taf ... sts-steps/

RAB
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by RAB »

From Footnote 2, page 248, Jesus the Christ, by James E. Talmage:

2. Pleasure Versus Happiness.—"The present is an age of pleasure-seeking, and men are losing their sanity in the mad rush for sensations that do but excite and disappoint. In this day of counterfeits, adulterations, and base imitations, the devil is busier than he has ever been in the course of human history, in the manufacture of pleasures, both old and new; and these he offers for sale in most attractive fashion, falsely labeled, Happiness. In this soul-destroying craft he is without a peer; he has had centuries of experience and practise, and by his skill he controls the market. He has learned the tricks of the trade, and knows well how to catch the eye and arouse the desire of his customers. He puts up the stuff in bright-colored packages, tied with tinsel string and tassel; and crowds flock to his bargain counters, hustling and crushing one another in their frenzy to buy.

"Follow one of the purchasers as he goes off gloatingly with his gaudy packet, and watch him as he opens it. What finds he inside the gilded wrapping? He has expected fragrant happiness, but uncovers only an inferior brand of pleasure, the stench of which is nauseating.

"Happiness includes all that is really desirable and of true worth in pleasure, and much beside. Happiness is genuine gold, pleasure but gilded brass, which corrodes in the hand, and is soon converted into poisonous verdigris. Happiness is as the genuine diamond, which, rough or polished, shines with its own inimitable luster; pleasure is as the paste imitation that glows only when artificially embellished. Happiness is as the ruby, red as the heart's blood, hard and enduring; pleasure, as stained glass, soft, brittle, and of but transitory beauty.

"Happiness is true food, wholesome, nutritious and sweet; it builds up the body and generates energy for action, physical, mental and spiritual; pleasure is but a deceiving stimulant which, like spirituous drink, makes one think he is strong when in reality enfeebled; makes him fancy he is well when in fact stricken with deadly malady.

"Happiness leaves no bad after-taste, it is followed by no[Pg 248] depressing reaction; it calls for no repentance, brings no regret, entails no remorse; pleasure too often makes necessary repentance, contrition, and suffering; and, if indulged to the extreme, it brings degradation and destruction.

"True happiness is lived over and over again in memory, always with a renewal of the original good; a moment of unholy pleasure may leave a barbed sting, which, like a thorn in the flesh, is an ever-present source of anguish.

"Happiness is not akin with levity, nor is it one with light-minded mirth. It springs from the deeper fountains of the soul, and is not infrequently accompanied by tears. Have you never been so happy that you have had to weep? I have." From an article by the author, Improvement Era, vol. 17, No. 2, pp. 172, 173.

MMbelieve
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by MMbelieve »

Pleasure is physical
Joy is spiritual

maybe?

There would then be pleasures that bring us Joy as well. Perhaps then nourishing the spirit and experiencing joy could enhance and produce pleasure on the physical side.

How many of us find pleasure in service to others? If our spirit feels joy in service to others then I believe our physical bodies will feel the pleasure of service, even if physically draining.

Sexual things and food both feed the body's pleasures. We need to learn to partake of both on a higher level so we can enjoy or find joy in both. We will not have "joy" in these things if we partake of them in anyway that offends the spirit. Overeating is definitely pleasurable for some people but they do not have joy, they have sorrow for their overindulgance (same as sex and porn).

They are feeding the physical only. Our physical is corrupt and weak-full of desires, it often offends us with what it can crave or express. Our spirit can be pure and help us to govern our physicals to a more acceptable manner which does bring both pleasure and joy. I think its the wrong use of or inappropriate expressions that hurt our spirits and bring guilt instead of joy. Low-confidence and self-esteem instead of confidence (with faith).

The world feeds on our weaknesses and insecurities...it will offer all kinds of replacements to help us artificially gain joy. Viewing or engaging in pornography will NEVER bring joy but it works so very well, attracting and fooling nearly every human. If a person is full of joy or even partly full of joy, I believe they wouldn't see pornography the same way as someone seeking to fill voids in their happiness. When we are incomplete, we will naturally be looking for ANYTHING to complete us and the adversary know the most powerful ways to trick us into thinking we are happy. But of course, he will out us and reveal us and leave us miserable and full of shame ie. Hell.

larsenb
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

I'm sure pleasure and pleasing have the same root. Many things are pleasing. Those things that are pleasing are spread across a very, very broad spectrum. One can normally take distinct pleasure in many pleasing experiences, which of course does not preclude some of these experiences being damaging in other ways.

As mentioned, experiencing joy is very pleasing. It is a distinct pleasure.

But unless you qualify the word 'pleasure' with an appropriate descriptor (e.g., sexual physical pleasure), you're kind of wasting your time and spinning your wheels in trying to differentiate the two words; and you really aren't saying much or being very understandable or profound.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by oneClimbs »

Answer to the second half of the equation? http://oneclimbs.com/2017/11/12/incomprehensible-joy/

gardener4life
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by gardener4life »

pleasure does not equal joy.

Joy is daily living consistent long term (and yes spiritually first). Pleasure is fleeting for the moment, and gone the next (physical). This is very close to discussing also the difference between love and infatuation.

larsenb
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

gardener4life wrote: November 14th, 2017, 1:07 am pleasure does not equal joy.

Joy is daily living consistent long term (and yes spiritually first). Pleasure is fleeting for the moment, and gone the next (physical). This is very close to discussing also the difference between love and infatuation.
Again, I think you would do better to qualify your use of the word pleasure. My sense is that you are referring to physical pleasure. You can take pleasure in many, many activities and states of mind, body and spirit, including joy.

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Sirocco
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Sirocco »

I get too much pleasure since joy is in short supply.
It's not a very good replacement.

Juliet
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Juliet »

larsenb wrote: November 14th, 2017, 11:45 am
gardener4life wrote: November 14th, 2017, 1:07 am pleasure does not equal joy.

Joy is daily living consistent long term (and yes spiritually first). Pleasure is fleeting for the moment, and gone the next (physical). This is very close to discussing also the difference between love and infatuation.
Again, I think you would do better to qualify your use of the word pleasure. My sense is that you are referring to physical pleasure. You can take pleasure in many, many activities and states of mind, body and spirit, including joy.
What are some of those activities and states of mind? The reason I mention sex and food is because they are often classified as evil but also pleasurable. So I meant to add a connotation into the title of pleasure and joy that perhaps if we worried less about sex or food being evil and more about how to really obtain joy from it, we would be less prone to pitfalls such as obesity and immorality.

I believe that we are here to have physical joy, real physical pleasure and much as we possibly can. Doing so requires one to portion out pleasure responsibly. This attitude can help overcome guilt that causes so many to remain trapped and guilty for partaking of what could be a real blessing is one stops seeing it as guilt inducing and instead seeks to fulfill those needs and desires in the most beneficial way.

Juliet
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Juliet »

Michelle wrote: November 13th, 2017, 11:12 am Wow, I have been working on this problem for over a year. I have even made charts and notes and spent a long time pondering this. What a think to see first things this morning!

I don't think pleasure is the same as joy, but I can think of situations in which they coexist. I can also think of instances in which one may experience pleasure, but not joy: such as gluttony or sexual promiscuity. In fact, in such instances it may be pleasure and sorrow that coexist.

Pleasure seems to be the physical equivalent of joy. Joy being the spiritual equivalent of pleasure.
Their opposites are pain and sorrow.

In relation to your specific examples:

I have found that the prophets have taught that sex is meant to be both pleasurable and joyful, but only when done in righteousness. We have been taught that God put the sexual desire into us and that it is good, so I don't understand why so many people think it is sinful. It is the expression of that desire, whether in thought or action, that determines whether it is experienced in righteousness. Desiring my husband is good both in thought and action. Desiring anyone else in thought or action is sinful and while it may bring temporary pleasure to some, it cannot bring joy only sorrow.

I have found the same about food. This, I think is the more common problem in the time and place where I live. If you study the scriptures about food you see that very few of us are living (or have even been raised to live) according to their instruction when it comes to food.

I was raised on the Standard American Diet and I have the standard American health problems.

I studied the scriptures and changed my diet. Besides cutting out processed food and eating real food in as natural a form as safely possible, (Pres. Benson teaches about this.) one of the biggest changes is to try to eat food in season as much as possible. I have found that the flavor of food changes because you are eating it with periods of a sort of fasting in between. Just a couple of example, the last couple of years I have refrained from eating potatoes and apples except in season. Once they come in season, I can eat them as much as I want until they go back out. I cannot tell you both how delicious they taste and how much I am able to consume of these without any adverse affects. The same with every other fruit and vegetable.

I actually made a chart years ago with the produce as it comes in season in my area divided in two week periods. My menu is built on that, but the cool thing is: when you are eating seasonally the food needs much less prep. You don't have to spice up your apples by putting them in an apple crisp or pie with lots of sugar, because they already taste like candy! The same is true for most produce, you are full and satisfied at the end of the season and crave it when the season comes around again so that you don't need to adulterate it with lots of prep or added ingredients.

One other point, I have found that when I eat food plainly I don't want to overeat. There is literally a moment between one bite and the next when I think, "This is so delicious I want another bite!" and "That was my last bite, it doesn't even taste good right now." Instantly. My body knows what it needs and what it does not. I never overeat or get bloated like that and I am satisfied. (For plain food, think of Daniel not just when he refuses the kings meat, but also later in the book when he needs an explanation of the revelation he received in a dream.)

I spoke about produce, which is probably not too hard for people to imagine liking at least some kind. It turns out it is true of grains as well. I can now eat a bowl of oatmeal with nothing on it and enjoy it until the bite when I am done. And I will enjoy it again, even the next morning, without hesitation. That did not happen overnight, but it did happen more quickly than I thought. That doesn't mean I always eat it plain, I may add fruit or nuts sometimes, but it is possible to enjoy a plain grain. I do the same with pancakes and waffles. I can eat them plain or with fruit or nuts and still enjoy them.

Even meat is eaten seasonally when we refrain except during winter. (I would eat it during cold and famine as well, ;) )

When you get to that point, the ice cream, doesn't really call like it use to because your desire for pleasure and joy are both being met.

One last point, I mentioned that eating seasonally creates a sort of fast for each item that makes it more desirable and delicious when it comes around again. In the Old Testament the Law of Moses actually required the righteous to abstain from sexual intercourse while a woman was on her period as well as the week after it stopped. There is a lot of meaning in this that I won't get into right now, but you can see how "fasting" from intercourse for approximately 2 weeks a month and then "feasting" for two weeks a month might increase the pleasure for both the husband and the wife. Just a pattern I noticed. ;)

Edits are links/quotes added:
Second: food. To a great extent we are physically what we eat. Most of us are acquainted with some of the prohibitions, such as no tea, coffee, tobacco, or alcohol. What need additional emphasis are the positive aspects—the need for vegetables, fruits, and grains, particularly wheat. In most cases, the closer these can be, when eaten, to their natural state— without overrefinement and processing—the healthier we will be. To a significant degree, we are an overfed and undernourished nation digging an early grave with our teeth, and lacking the energy that could be ours because we overindulge in junk foods. I am grateful to know that on this campus you can get apples from vending machines, that you have in your student center a fine salad bar, and that you produce an excellent loaf of natural whole-grain bread. Keep it up and keep progressing in that direction. We need a generation of young people who, as Daniel, eat in a more healthy manner than to fare on the “king’s meat”—and whose countenances show it (see Daniel 1).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taf ... sts-steps/
Love your points, awesome how you have found more joy on eating and that makes you not need to overeat.

moving2zion
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by moving2zion »

Flat out I have reached the age that overeating is no longer pleasurable, but a delicious meal with good friends is joyful. Sleeping more is also joyful- my nights tending little kids taught me that😋

gardener4life
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by gardener4life »

I would encourage you all to use the scriptures to interpret this rather than the modern craftiness of men.

davedan
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by davedan »

Ravi Zacharias talks some on this.

If we just glut ourself on pleasure, we are not demonstrating sacredness, reverence, or thankfulness. By establishing boundaries on human behavior, we demonstrate sacredness, holiness, reverence, and thankfulness. You cannot experience joy and happiness without sacred and reverent thankfullness.

Thankfullness = happiness. Can you be thankful and not happy? If you never establish boundaries, you can never satisfy the boundless desire. Wickedness never was happiness.
Last edited by davedan on November 16th, 2017, 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Michelle
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Michelle »

Juliet wrote: November 14th, 2017, 10:23 pm
larsenb wrote: November 14th, 2017, 11:45 am
gardener4life wrote: November 14th, 2017, 1:07 am pleasure does not equal joy.

Joy is daily living consistent long term (and yes spiritually first). Pleasure is fleeting for the moment, and gone the next (physical). This is very close to discussing also the difference between love and infatuation.
Again, I think you would do better to qualify your use of the word pleasure. My sense is that you are referring to physical pleasure. You can take pleasure in many, many activities and states of mind, body and spirit, including joy.
What are some of those activities and states of mind? The reason I mention sex and food is because they are often classified as evil but also pleasurable. So I meant to add a connotation into the title of pleasure and joy that perhaps if we worried less about sex or food being evil and more about how to really obtain joy from it, we would be less prone to pitfalls such as obesity and immorality.

I believe that we are here to have physical joy, real physical pleasure and much as we possibly can. Doing so requires one to portion out pleasure responsibly. This attitude can help overcome guilt that causes so many to remain trapped and guilty for partaking of what could be a real blessing is one stops seeing it as guilt inducing and instead seeks to fulfill those needs and desires in the most beneficial way.
I do believe we can find (and are suppose to find) joy in food and sex, it is the misuse that causes guilt and sorrow. But that is not the same a "portioning out pleasure" they way you seem to be describing it. Otherwise we could say, "one or two alcoholic drinks on occasion is OK as long as you don't get drunk or become an alcoholic."

The problem is that when you partake of physical pleasure inappropriately, it impedes your ability to enjoy it appropriately.

An example might be using porn (including romance novels) makes appropriate sex/relationships with your spouse less enjoyable. With food, if I eat a dessert and then eat an apple, the apple doesn't taste quite as good. Our minds and bodies are pretty good at determining which of two options are more pleasurably stimulating.

God made sex and food appropriately pleasurable in their natural and normal state. Outside of that they may be hyper-stimulating and even addictive.
Doctrine and Covenants 59:15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance
16 Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;
17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;
18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;
19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.
20 And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.

Michelle
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Michelle »

7 deadly sins: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth.

Each one is a virtue taken to extremes:
It is good to be neat and clean and work hard because it is right. It is not good to do it for praise
It is good to work and provide for one's temporal needs. It is not good to do it simply to accumulate wealth.
It is good to experience appropriate physical attraction to one's spouse. It is not good to indulge in pornography or inappropriate sexual relations.

It is good to recognize the blessings in our own lives and others lives. It is not good to want another's blessings.

It is good to eat appropriate amounts of appropriate food. It is not good to overindulge.

It is good to use judgement to recognize good from evil and defend the defenseless. It is not good to be offended easily or judge unrighteously.

It is good to rest regularly from our work and get enough sleep. It is not good to avoid work and responsibility and expect or demand that another provide for our needs.

Many good things that bring joy are pleasurable. Many good things that bring joy are not pleasurable, but they are still joyful. Adam and Eve could not experience a fullness of joy without leaving the Garden of Eden.

Rand
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Rand »

In my experience, no, they are not the same. Pleasure is, by and large, a physical and emotional state. Joy is a virtue, or a way of engaging the Spirit of God. The Book of Mormon and the DC mostly connect Joy to the eternal nature of families. "Men are that they might have joy" is an expression linked to Eternal Life, or God's type of life. Pleasure is, although enjoyable, a state of physical perception that can be noble, but can be distorted by the adversary to further his purposes. Joy however, cannot be highjacked by Satan.

davedan
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by davedan »

Pleasure is just the physical sensation alone.

Joy is the physical and spiritual enjoyment together by receiving the gift with thanksgiving, reverence, and proper "judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion."

larsenb
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

Juliet wrote: November 14th, 2017, 10:23 pm
larsenb wrote: November 14th, 2017, 11:45 am
gardener4life wrote: November 14th, 2017, 1:07 am pleasure does not equal joy.

Joy is daily living consistent long term (and yes spiritually first). Pleasure is fleeting for the moment, and gone the next (physical). This is very close to discussing also the difference between love and infatuation.
Again, I think you would do better to qualify your use of the word pleasure. My sense is that you are referring to physical pleasure. You can take pleasure in many, many activities and states of mind, body and spirit, including joy.
What are some of those activities and states of mind? The reason I mention sex and food is because they are often classified as evil but also pleasurable. So I meant to add a connotation into the title of pleasure and joy that perhaps if we worried less about sex or food being evil and more about how to really obtain joy from it, we would be less prone to pitfalls such as obesity and immorality.

I believe that we are here to have physical joy, real physical pleasure and much as we possibly can. Doing so requires one to portion out pleasure responsibly. This attitude can help overcome guilt that causes so many to remain trapped and guilty for partaking of what could be a real blessing is one stops seeing it as guilt inducing and instead seeks to fulfill those needs and desires in the most beneficial way.
"What are some of those activities and states of mind? "

One takes pleasure in doing a job well, in a sunset and the beauty of the world in general, in being recognized for something you did that was good, in rigorous exercise; in solving a knotty problem, in many other kinds of worthwhile activities and expressions of talents; in just feeling healthy and energetic; in reading a really good book, encountering a very clever turn of phrase, enjoying well-written poetry, listening to various kinds of music; helping out some needy group or person; making someone laugh without resorting to crudity; entertaining a group or a person, etc., etc., etc.

AND . . . . . in feeling joy in one capacity or another. It is VERY pleasurable to feel joy, especially that of a spiritual nature that verifies the deeper meanings of life and that connects with Deity and the Spirit.

Pleasure can be taken as pertaining to just physical pleasure, but why confine it to just sex and gastronomic appetite, or things hedonistic in general? Again, pleasure has the same root as pleasing. I.e., something that is pleasing could be described as producing pleasure in one who is being pleased. Lots of activities and states of mind/body are pleasing, and hence, give pleasure. They are pleasurable

It may be that w/many religious folks, and LDS in particular, the word is associated just with the physical/emotional pleasures of sex and food.

Too narrow a definition for me; kind of a waste of time to try to force-fit a very narrow and black-and-white meaning to the word pleasure, without qualifying the type of pleasure you are trying to separate from joy. But to each his/her own. I doubt, however, you're going to arrive at any profundities in the attempt unless you really clarify how you're using the word.

larsenb
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

Rand wrote: November 15th, 2017, 2:56 pm . . . . . . Pleasure is, although enjoyable, a state of physical perception that can be noble, but can be distorted by the adversary to further his purposes. . . . . . .
Notice how you say: "Pleasure is . . . enjoyable . . . " Notice the embedded 'joy' in enjoyable. You could also say: "Joy is pleasurable" . . . and if you disagree with that statement, are you then saying that joy is not pleasurable, is not pleasing??

Of course you are welcome to select how you want to use the word pleasure. Philosophers do this type of thing quite a bit, but they try to make it very clear how they are expanding or narrowing the meaning of a word or phrase beyond or as a subset of the conventional meaning, and that the usage they put forth is to be used only in the context of their philosophical system.

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Yahtzee
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by Yahtzee »

"If we look to the world and follow its formulas for happiness, we will never know joy. The unrighteous may experience any number of emotions and sensations, but they will never experience joy! Joy is a gift for the faithful. It is the gift that comes from intentionally trying to live a righteous life, as taught by Jesus Christ." - Russell M. Nelson

larsenb
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Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

Yahtzee wrote: November 16th, 2017, 12:11 am "If we look to the world and follow its formulas for happiness, we will never know joy. The unrighteous may experience any number of emotions and sensations, but they will never experience joy! Joy is a gift for the faithful. It is the gift that comes from intentionally trying to live a righteous life, as taught by Jesus Christ." - Russell M. Nelson
Elder Nelson is talking about one of the highest joys, which is a gift to the faithful followers of Jesus Christ. OK, I concede. To call this kind of joy pleasurable, pleasing IS kind of anemic. Though this joy is certainly most pleasing.

But I could swear that I felt a kind of joy at the birth of my first son. Calling that 'pleasurable' is also kind of anemic, but it was also extremely pleasing and produced a profound sense of gratitude. Experiences of these kinds of joy also seems to be associated with a strong sense of awe.

larsenb
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Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Is Pleasure same as Joy?

Post by larsenb »

Though joy is pleasurable, I would say it goes beyond mere pleasure. Maybe some of you have already mentioned this, but I think you could say that joy does embody other powerful emotions/perceptions including the sense of gratitude and awe that I mentioned. I think it also induces a sense of having been connected with something very profound (awe?) and it reinvigorates your sense that life has deep meaning, which also brings a sense of responsibility in how your conduct and lead your life . . . almost a moral component to it.

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