Conceal carry in church

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

mirkwood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:02 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:00 pm
He was arrested. Are you talking about the police that arrested him?
Yes. He would not have given up if not caught by an armed man.
We aren’t talking about police or FBI, who do carry even at church.

We are talking about regular members, carrying and concealing at church, which our leaders don’t want.

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:06 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:56 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:19 pmAnd you misread what I'm saying, if you think I "want to join with your fellow AR-15" owners and fight the roaming bands". Couldn't be further from the truth. I just want to be prepared if conditions called for it. You apparently don't. A big difference between you and myself.
Where have our leaders spoke about arming with guns? Are you saying those with guns are better Mormons?
Why do people always seem to make unfounded assumptions about almost any statement. I've said what I've said and it has nothing to do w/making a judgment against those who don't follow my ideas on the subject. I simply don't think in terms of "better Mormons", or not.

Though I do think that those who neglect to prepare for their defense and the defense of their families and loved-ones, are somewhat foolish, and have their heads in the sand to some degree. Has nothing to do with their Mormonhood. Though Mormons should know better.

Yes, our leaders have talked about this issue before (maybe some of the quotes in this thread). I think they really don't have to say much in view of the already existing scriptures on the subject, which have been quoted in this thread and many times elsewhere.
Give me a quote from the last 30 years, not military or police.

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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21.2.4
Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:11 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:06 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:56 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:19 pmAnd you misread what I'm saying, if you think I "want to join with your fellow AR-15" owners and fight the roaming bands". Couldn't be further from the truth. I just want to be prepared if conditions called for it. You apparently don't. A big difference between you and myself.
Where have our leaders spoke about arming with guns? Are you saying those with guns are better Mormons?
Why do people always seem to make unfounded assumptions about almost any statement. I've said what I've said and it has nothing to do w/making a judgment against those who don't follow my ideas on the subject. I simply don't think in terms of "better Mormons", or not.

Though I do think that those who neglect to prepare for their defense and the defense of their families and loved-ones, are somewhat foolish, and have their heads in the sand to some degree. Has nothing to do with their Mormonhood. Though Mormons should know better.

Yes, our leaders have talked about this issue before (maybe some of the quotes in this thread). I think they really don't have to say much in view of the already existing scriptures on the subject, which have been quoted in this thread and many times elsewhere.
Give me a quote from the last 30 years, not military or police.
Such hasn't been my study. Too busy for such things. Existing quotes from scripture cover the bases for me.

But I will make a similar request of you: Give me a quote from the last 30 years from the Brethren saying we aren't responsible for our own and our families defense, and/or that they say we should give up our guns. I do seem to recall that there have been recent quotes discouraging the members from 'hoarding' guns, however.
Last edited by larsenb on November 17th, 2017, 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:17 pm 21.2.4
Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.
If the Brethren want this, so be it.

However, one could carry a lethal weapon into Church and still feel the Church was a haven from the cares and concerns of the world. Why be so black-and-white about it? How about the poor armed cops?

My guess is that if their was a shooting in an LDS chapel (at least in the US), similar in scope and carnage to the recent shooting in Texas, the Brethren might very well augment this decision to require one or more trained armed guards to be present in all official, relatively large-scale Church meetings.

I would have no problem with this.

Otherwise, the percentage of members attending church might very well drop off if they felt they were not physically safe when doing so. Especially, if this became a more wide-spread trend; maybe encouraged by the gunmen knowing they were likely to avoid serious opposition in their murderous activities because of the virtual advertisement that LDS Chapels and Temples were likely to be gun-free zones.

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:20 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:11 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:06 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:56 pm

Where have our leaders spoke about arming with guns? Are you saying those with guns are better Mormons?
Why do people always seem to make unfounded assumptions about almost any statement. I've said what I've said and it has nothing to do w/making a judgment against those who don't follow my ideas on the subject. I simply don't think in terms of "better Mormons", or not.

Though I do think that those who neglect to prepare for their defense and the defense of their families and loved-ones, are somewhat foolish, and have their heads in the sand to some degree. Has nothing to do with their Mormonhood. Though Mormons should know better.

Yes, our leaders have talked about this issue before (maybe some of the quotes in this thread). I think they really don't have to say much in view of the already existing scriptures on the subject, which have been quoted in this thread and many times elsewhere.
Give me a quote from the last 30 years, not military or police.
Such hasn't been my study. Too busy for such things. Existing quotes from scripture cover the bases for me.

But I will make a similar request of you: Give me a quote from the last 30 years from the Brethren saying we aren't responsible for our own and our families defense, and/or that they say we should give up our guns. I do seem to recall that there have been recent quotes discouraging the members from 'hoarding' guns.
Because we had not yet received physical bodies, we fought the War in Heaven without swords, guns, or bombs. But the fighting was just as intense as any modern war, and there were billions of casualties.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/04/the- ... n?lang=eng

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:36 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 3:20 pm
Such hasn't been my study. Too busy for such things. Existing quotes from scripture cover the bases for me.

But I will make a similar request of you: Give me a quote from the last 30 years from the Brethren saying we aren't responsible for our own and our families defense, and/or that they say we should give up our guns. I do seem to recall that there have been recent quotes discouraging the members from 'hoarding' guns.
Because we had not yet received physical bodies, we fought the War in Heaven without swords, guns, or bombs. But the fighting was just as intense as any modern war, and there were billions of casualties.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/04/the- ... n?lang=eng
Your quote doesn't quite cover the bases, simply because we are acting in a sphere where we HAVE received bodies. So actually, the quote undermines your argument.

Keep searching.

Me? I'm just avoiding work I need to do on a garden-room wall.

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David13
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by David13 »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:56 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 2:19 pmAnd you misread what I'm saying, if you think I "want to join with your fellow AR-15" owners and fight the roaming bands". Couldn't be further from the truth. I just want to be prepared if conditions called for it. You apparently don't. A big difference between you and myself.
Where have our leaders spoke about arming with guns? Are you saying those with guns are better Mormons?
They are those that follow the words of the Lord in the Book of Mormon.

And the talks as follows:


"Not only should we have strong spiritual homes, but we should have strong temporal homes. We should avoid bondage by getting out of debt as soon as we can, pay as we go, and live within our incomes. There is wisdom in having on hand a year's supply of food, clothing, fuel (if possible), and in being preparing to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst, while working for the best."
Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 263-264

"As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave."
Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, Vol 1, p. 171 - 172, July 31, 1853
dc

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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Live by Faith and not by Fear
we could raise our families in righteousness if we would:

Follow the prophet.

Create the true spirit of the gospel in our hearts and homes.

Be a light to those among whom we live.

Focus on the ordinances and principles taught in the temple. (See D&C 115:5; Harold B. Lee, “Your Light to Be a Standard unto the Nations,” Ensign, Aug. 1973, 3–4.)

As we followed this counsel, our faith increased and our fears decreased. I believe we can raise righteous children anywhere in the world if they are taught religious principles in the home.
No guns needed. Light, not warlike.

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mirkwood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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*sigh* you're willfully missing the point.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/te ... ooter.html

Not a police officer. Want a bunch more? Do your own research, get out of your paradigm.

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

mirkwood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:05 pm *sigh* you're willfully missing the point.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/te ... ooter.html

Not a police officer. Want a bunch more? Do your own research, get out of your paradigm.
The downside of models and paradigms is that they can trap people in them. Models are only truly good when they have give a true view of what they are describing and/or are predictive, otherwise they can become traps.

It's is normally a waste of time to get into a discussion/argument with people who are thusly trapped.

A sign of someone in this condition, is that whatever point you may make in a discussion, or how ever logical it may be, the trapped person will barely, if ever, respond or acknowledge or refute the point or information you provide.

The 'bifurcation' logical error normally is very pervasive in the arguments provide by people trapped by their models, along with unwarranted generalizations, of one stripe or another.

I see this again and again, and then again, on forum discussions such as this one. I personally try to avoid such things. Not always successful, but being aware of the danger helps.

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:37 pm
mirkwood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:05 pm *sigh* you're willfully missing the point.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/te ... ooter.html

Not a police officer. Want a bunch more? Do your own research, get out of your paradigm.
The downside of models and paradigms is that they can trap people in them. Models are only truly good when they have give a true view of what they are describing and/or are predictive, otherwise they can become traps.

It's is normally a waste of time to get into a discussion/argument with people who are thusly trapped.

A sign of someone in this condition, is that whatever point you may make in a discussion, or how ever logical it may be, the trapped person will barely, if ever, respond or acknowledge or refute the point or information you provide.

The 'bifurcation' logical error normally is very pervasive in the arguments provide by people trapped by their models, along with unwarranted generalizations, of one stripe or another.

I see this again and again, and then again, on forum discussions such as this one. I personally try to avoid such things. Not always successful, but being aware of the danger helps.
Imagine people having a different opinion...Your logic on your opinion always seems right.

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

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mirkwood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Smug self righteousness. :roll:

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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mirkwood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:36 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Smug self righteousness. :roll:
Have you noticed the names ya’ll are calling..

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Joel
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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Elderly man accidentally shoots wife at Tennessee church during talk about church shooting

Tennessee man accidentally shot himself and his wife at church during a discussion about the recent massacre at a Texas church.

Elder members of First United Methodist Church in Tellico Plains were meeting Thursday afternoon to eat a Thanksgiving dinner when the mass shooting came up, and one of them asked if anyone brought their gun to church, reported WATE-TV.

Police said a man in his 80s pulled out a .380 caliber Ruger handgun and boasted, “I carry my handgun everywhere.

The man removed the magazine, cleared the chamber and showed the weapon to some other men, then put the magazine back in, evidently loaded a round into the chamber and returned the gun to his holster, police said.

Someone else walked up and asked to see the gun, police said, and the man took out the weapon again.

He pulled it back out and said, ‘With this loaded indicator, I can tell that it’s not loaded,'” according to Police Chief Russ Parks.

He then pulled the trigger, apparently forgetting he had put a round in the chamber.

The gun was lying on its side on a table, and the bullet sliced the man’s palm and entered the left side of his wife’s abdomen and exited the right.

Both of them were hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries.

No charges will be filed in the shooting, police said.

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mirkwood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

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Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:44 pm Have you noticed the names ya’ll are calling..
I have not called you a single name, yet you have repeatedly referred to me (and others) as Telestial in a condescending manner. Look in the mirror.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Silver
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Silver »

Robin Hood wrote: November 18th, 2017, 5:02 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.
RH, you're denying history again. The Joseph to whom you refer used a pistol to try to kill his attackers in Carthage jail. We are obviously miles apart on this issue, but I won't let you rewrite history. Joseph Smith was the leader of the Nauvoo Legion, a nasty little militia with guns. Guns, RH, guns that shoot, and make noise, and kill people and horrible stuff like that. You cannot pretend away the fact that he, the Prophet of the Restoration, knew the proper role of guns in society. Your attempts to "guilt" us with references to a Telestial mindset are in vain. When I make it to the Celestial Kingdom, I am going to design and manufacture my own guns just to spite you. I will make them so powerful they can hit you down in the Terrestrial Kingdom where you'll be sent for not being valiant in supporting the God-given right to defend oneself.

I'm sorry that you live in a country which has largely neutered men from protecting their loved ones and their homes. Your anti-gun bias exists in some degree due to where you live. Luckily, I live in America, which, in spite of its many, many faults, still allows me to possess weapons for defense. The day is coming however when the right to self-defense will be tested even here, in the only land where the Gospel had a chance of being restored. In a land with a God-inspired Constitution which recognizes God-given rights.

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David13
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by David13 »

Robin Hood wrote: November 18th, 2017, 5:02 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.
Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Robin Hood wrote: November 18th, 2017, 5:02 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.
Joseph used a gun to shoot back at the mobbers coming up the stairs for him and his companions in the Carthage Jail. As I recall, he actually shot one or more of them.

Was Joseph trapped in a "Telestial/Babylonian" mindset when he did this??

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Robin Hood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

David13 wrote: November 18th, 2017, 9:40 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 18th, 2017, 5:02 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.
Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

And even in that "free country" the Saints were murdered and raped, chased from their homes, and had the supposed political guardians of the constitution issue an extermination order against them. The Saints were thrown out of Missouri and Illinois at gun point (by the way, none of that would have happened in England; a civilised nation ;) ).
How come they didn't just shoot back? Are you really accusing Joseph, Brigham and all of the priesthood of "neglecting and omitting an important part of (their) priesthood authority"? Were they "emasculated"?
Let's face it, according to your worldview, the Saints ran away.

So, a question or two. What did Jesus mean when he said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword? What did he mean when he told us to turn the other cheek? Do you agree with Jesus that we should love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

larsenb wrote: November 18th, 2017, 10:05 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 18th, 2017, 5:02 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 4:53 pm

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.
Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.
Joseph used a gun to shoot back at the mobbers coming up the stairs for him and his companions in the Carthage Jail. As I recall, he actually shot one or more of them.

Was Joseph trapped in a "Telestial/Babylonian" mindset when he did this??
Yes, I believe he probably was, just like the rest of us.
But this should not come as a surprise to us. As far as we are aware, the only people who ever managed to break free of the stranglehold this mindset has upon us were Moses, Elijah, John, the Three Nephites, and Enoch's people.

Let's must keep in mind that Joseph firing a pistol at the mobbers achieved nothing. They still killed him and his brother. It made absolutely no difference to the outcome.
Live by the sword you die by the sword.

lundbaek
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by lundbaek »

I wonder how many of you are aware of the "Send a Gun to Defend an English Home" program that started back when England was actually threatened by invasion by Germany ("Wir Fahren Gegen England"). Americans were asked to donate personal, privately owned guns to some organization that managed to get them to England. I've read that after the war those guns, presumably most of them at least, were dumped in the sea somewhere off Southend.

Silver
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Silver »

Joseph fired the pistol to save the others. He was very well aware of why the mobbers came to Carthage jail that day. Those servants of Satan weren't there to kill Willard Richards.

Joseph went to the window to save the others. If he landed on the ground alive, the evil men there would have shot him and stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered. If he died in the window or on the way down, the evil men there would have stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered.

Joseph sacrificed his life to save the others.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13) RH, you're wrong about Joseph having a Telestial mindset.

And you're wrong about the use of guns for defensive purposes. If this discussion were being held 1,000 years ago, would you be poo-pooing on spears or high-capacity quivers? A gun is a tool. A tool. It can be used for good or evil, but of itself it is neither good nor evil.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

We're never going to agree to on this.
A gun is a tool, but a tool designed exclusively for killing. Unlike a lorry for example.
I mean, the Olympic committee didn't think up a new sport one day, saying "let's have a target and get someone to invent something we can use to shoot at it that isn't an arrow". The gun was invented with the sole purpose of killing people. It wasn't invented to kill animals or knock cans off a wall etc. It was designed to kill human beings.

Most tools have a primary use. A hammer knocks in a nail, a chainsaw fells a tree. I can use those tools for another purpose if I choose. I could hit you over the head or decapitate you with them. These tools would be very effective in this scenario. But that would constitute a misuse of these otherwise useful tools.
When a gun is used to kill someone, it is not a misuse of the gun in and of itself. It is exactly what the gun was designed to do.

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