Conceal carry in church

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Robin Hood
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Location: England

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:53 am
Silver wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:20 pm
Arenera wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:14 pm

Maybe you didn’t pay attention to how Nephi felt about the destruction of his entire posterity.

We are talking about the entire destruction of 2 civilizations. Is that silly Finrock?
You know what you lack? You lack a word that appears three times in your signature. I'll give you a hint. It starts with a great, big ol' "W" and it ends with a "isdom."

Brother Browning, Mormon, sure had a nice gun manufacturing facility in Nauvoo, with the prophet's approval.
And how successful were the saints in establishing Zion?
Big, big fail!
The prospect of becoming a Zion people by the time they were in Nauvoo had evaporated. The Saints, and the prophet it seems, had given up on that effort. So of course they would arm themselves; they were still very much of this Babylonian world.
They also had a distillery; perhaps we can justify drinking whisky too.
RH, by holding your current position you're having to overlook that guns are a tool. They are merely a tool. I can kill someone with a big tool called a lorry. In fact, it's been done recently in your country. A hammer is another tool, deadly when placed in the hands of someone intent on doing harm. Are we to eliminate all tools because they can be used for evil?

Obviously, the saints' unsuccessful attempt to establish Zion was due to what was in their hearts, not the type of tool they used to defend themselves. They also used guns to feed themselves. Would you rather they starve to death? That they reduce their diet down to only what they could kill with their bare hands? Or should hands also be illegal?
Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, have Peter reprimand Jesus, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?

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David13
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Location: Utah

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by David13 »

Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:47 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:53 am
Silver wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:20 pm

You know what you lack? You lack a word that appears three times in your signature. I'll give you a hint. It starts with a great, big ol' "W" and it ends with a "isdom."

Brother Browning, Mormon, sure had a nice gun manufacturing facility in Nauvoo, with the prophet's approval.
And how successful were the saints in establishing Zion?
Big, big fail!
The prospect of becoming a Zion people by the time they were in Nauvoo had evaporated. The Saints, and the prophet it seems, had given up on that effort. So of course they would arm themselves; they were still very much of this Babylonian world.
They also had a distillery; perhaps we can justify drinking whisky too.
RH, by holding your current position you're having to overlook that guns are a tool. They are merely a tool. I can kill someone with a big tool called a lorry. In fact, it's been done recently in your country. A hammer is another tool, deadly when placed in the hands of someone intent on doing harm. Are we to eliminate all tools because they can be used for evil?

Obviously, the saints' unsuccessful attempt to establish Zion was due to what was in their hearts, not the type of tool they used to defend themselves. They also used guns to feed themselves. Would you rather they starve to death? That they reduce their diet down to only what they could kill with their bare hands? Or should hands also be illegal?
Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?


I'd say following what we have been told:

"Alma 43

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies."

Amen

If we don't survive, do we establish Zion? No, we just perish.

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Arenera
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Posts: 2712

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
The truth is this: Even police officers who have had to kill a criminal in the line of duty may struggle with their feelings afterward. According to Sergeant Jim Faraone, a 20-year veteran with the Salt Lake City Police Department, “It is hard on a person emotionally.” In fact, he says, “we’d be concerned if it didn’t affect them. They are going to see it again in their sleep, and play it over and over again [in their mind]. I think many officers probably put themselves in greater jeopardy, realizing the finality of letting a bullet go. It could not be a casual thing.”

A person who can casually take the life of another—even that of a violent criminal—is not the kind of person you want on your police force. And it is not the kind of person a follower of Christ would want to be.
Consider the experience of Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. Some years ago, Elder Oaks was living in Chicago when one night he was confronted by a young robber with a gun. Elder Oaks had no money to give him, no watch, nothing of value except his car—and his wife was in the car. Both Elder Oaks and his wife were at great risk. During the encounter, Elder Oaks had an opportunity to grab the gun without the likelihood of being shot. “I was taller and heavier than this young man,” Elder Oaks explains, “and at that time of my life was somewhat athletic. I had no doubt that I could prevail in a quick wrestling match if I could get his gun out of the contest.

“Just as I was about to make my move, I had a unique experience. I did not see anything or hear anything, but I knew something. I knew what would happen if I grabbed that gun. We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man’s chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also knew that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.

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Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

David13 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:54 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:47 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:53 am

And how successful were the saints in establishing Zion?
Big, big fail!
The prospect of becoming a Zion people by the time they were in Nauvoo had evaporated. The Saints, and the prophet it seems, had given up on that effort. So of course they would arm themselves; they were still very much of this Babylonian world.
They also had a distillery; perhaps we can justify drinking whisky too.
RH, by holding your current position you're having to overlook that guns are a tool. They are merely a tool. I can kill someone with a big tool called a lorry. In fact, it's been done recently in your country. A hammer is another tool, deadly when placed in the hands of someone intent on doing harm. Are we to eliminate all tools because they can be used for evil?

Obviously, the saints' unsuccessful attempt to establish Zion was due to what was in their hearts, not the type of tool they used to defend themselves. They also used guns to feed themselves. Would you rather they starve to death? That they reduce their diet down to only what they could kill with their bare hands? Or should hands also be illegal?
Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?


I'd say following what we have been told:

"Alma 43

46 And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies."
So you have to let someone shoot at you twice before returning fire?

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

David13 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:54 am

If we don't survive, do we establish Zion? No, we just perish.
What... you mean like the Nephites?

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Silver »

Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:47 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:53 am
Silver wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:20 pm

You know what you lack? You lack a word that appears three times in your signature. I'll give you a hint. It starts with a great, big ol' "W" and it ends with a "isdom."

Brother Browning, Mormon, sure had a nice gun manufacturing facility in Nauvoo, with the prophet's approval.
And how successful were the saints in establishing Zion?
Big, big fail!
The prospect of becoming a Zion people by the time they were in Nauvoo had evaporated. The Saints, and the prophet it seems, had given up on that effort. So of course they would arm themselves; they were still very much of this Babylonian world.
They also had a distillery; perhaps we can justify drinking whisky too.
RH, by holding your current position you're having to overlook that guns are a tool. They are merely a tool. I can kill someone with a big tool called a lorry. In fact, it's been done recently in your country. A hammer is another tool, deadly when placed in the hands of someone intent on doing harm. Are we to eliminate all tools because they can be used for evil?

Obviously, the saints' unsuccessful attempt to establish Zion was due to what was in their hearts, not the type of tool they used to defend themselves. They also used guns to feed themselves. Would you rather they starve to death? That they reduce their diet down to only what they could kill with their bare hands? Or should hands also be illegal?
Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, have Peter reprimand Jesus, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?
RH, you're waxing philosophical and taking the discussion away from the reality that has existed since the first day Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden. If Adam, the first man, didn't fashion a spear or knife from materials available, how could he protect himself and Eve from the lions, tigers and bears that were no longer the cuddly herbivores they knew in the Garden?

Do you get it? At that time there weren't even other men with mean black rifles from whom Adam needed to defend himself. As long as Eve didn't go Lorena Bobbit on Adam, he would not need to defend himself from her, the only other person on Earth (which is spherical) at the time. However, Adam had the right, and the duty, to defend his little family of two. God gave Adam the natural right to defend himself. If Adam had succumbed to a bear attack, you wouldn't be bishop nor would you be blessed with the opportunity to read the wisdom that flows from my fingertips.

Now let's say you, RH, were attacked by a lion or an evil man -- it doesn't matter which. Are you going to kneel, bare your chest and offer your life willingly? If you are weaponless, as is your preference, you may opt to run away to avoid being killed. However, based on your twisted logic, you would be a faithless sinner for doing so.

Why? Because you are using tools, your feet, to avoid death. The scriptures clearly say, "If thy (feet) offend thee, cast them far from thee." See how ridiculous you've made the simple act of self-preservation?

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Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 8:35 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:47 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:38 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:53 am

And how successful were the saints in establishing Zion?
Big, big fail!
The prospect of becoming a Zion people by the time they were in Nauvoo had evaporated. The Saints, and the prophet it seems, had given up on that effort. So of course they would arm themselves; they were still very much of this Babylonian world.
They also had a distillery; perhaps we can justify drinking whisky too.
RH, by holding your current position you're having to overlook that guns are a tool. They are merely a tool. I can kill someone with a big tool called a lorry. In fact, it's been done recently in your country. A hammer is another tool, deadly when placed in the hands of someone intent on doing harm. Are we to eliminate all tools because they can be used for evil?

Obviously, the saints' unsuccessful attempt to establish Zion was due to what was in their hearts, not the type of tool they used to defend themselves. They also used guns to feed themselves. Would you rather they starve to death? That they reduce their diet down to only what they could kill with their bare hands? Or should hands also be illegal?
Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, have Peter reprimand Jesus, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?
RH, you're waxing philosophical and taking the discussion away from the reality that has existed since the first day Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden. If Adam, the first man, didn't fashion a spear or knife from materials available, how could he protect himself and Eve from the lions, tigers and bears that were no longer the cuddly herbivores they knew in the Garden?

Do you get it? At that time there weren't even other men with mean black rifles from whom Adam needed to defend himself. As long as Eve didn't go Lorena Bobbit on Adam, he would not need to defend himself from her, the only other person on Earth (which is spherical) at the time. However, Adam had the right, and the duty, to defend his little family of two. God gave Adam the natural right to defend himself. If Adam had succumbed to a bear attack, you wouldn't be bishop nor would you be blessed with the opportunity to read the wisdom that flows from my fingertips.

Now let's say you, RH, were attacked by a lion or an evil man -- it doesn't matter which. Are you going to kneel, bare your chest and offer your life willingly? If you are weaponless, as is your preference, you may opt to run away to avoid being killed. However, based on your twisted logic, you would be a faithless sinner for doing so.

Why? Because you are using tools, your feet, to avoid death. The scriptures clearly say, "If thy (feet) offend thee, cast them far from thee." See how ridiculous you've made the simple act of self-preservation?
Adam did not have to protect himself from the wild animals. The enmity between man and the animal kingdom came later.
Nibley addressed this issue extensively when he explained the role and behaviour of Nimrod. I'm quite surprised you didn't know that.

Do you have any idea what being a Zion people looks like? Do you think the people of Enoch were just like us? Do you think we just need to tweek a little here and there and hey presto along comes Zion?

If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got.

You trust in your gun, and I'll trust in my God.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Silver »

Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 9:03 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 8:35 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:47 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 5:38 am

RH, by holding your current position you're having to overlook that guns are a tool. They are merely a tool. I can kill someone with a big tool called a lorry. In fact, it's been done recently in your country. A hammer is another tool, deadly when placed in the hands of someone intent on doing harm. Are we to eliminate all tools because they can be used for evil?

Obviously, the saints' unsuccessful attempt to establish Zion was due to what was in their hearts, not the type of tool they used to defend themselves. They also used guns to feed themselves. Would you rather they starve to death? That they reduce their diet down to only what they could kill with their bare hands? Or should hands also be illegal?
Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, have Peter reprimand Jesus, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?
RH, you're waxing philosophical and taking the discussion away from the reality that has existed since the first day Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden. If Adam, the first man, didn't fashion a spear or knife from materials available, how could he protect himself and Eve from the lions, tigers and bears that were no longer the cuddly herbivores they knew in the Garden?

Do you get it? At that time there weren't even other men with mean black rifles from whom Adam needed to defend himself. As long as Eve didn't go Lorena Bobbit on Adam, he would not need to defend himself from her, the only other person on Earth (which is spherical) at the time. However, Adam had the right, and the duty, to defend his little family of two. God gave Adam the natural right to defend himself. If Adam had succumbed to a bear attack, you wouldn't be bishop nor would you be blessed with the opportunity to read the wisdom that flows from my fingertips.

Now let's say you, RH, were attacked by a lion or an evil man -- it doesn't matter which. Are you going to kneel, bare your chest and offer your life willingly? If you are weaponless, as is your preference, you may opt to run away to avoid being killed. However, based on your twisted logic, you would be a faithless sinner for doing so.

Why? Because you are using tools, your feet, to avoid death. The scriptures clearly say, "If thy (feet) offend thee, cast them far from thee." See how ridiculous you've made the simple act of self-preservation?
Adam did not have to protect himself from the wild animals. The enmity between man and the animal kingdom came later.
Nibley addressed this issue extensively when he explained the role and behaviour of Nimrod. I'm quite surprised you didn't know that.

Do you have any idea what being a Zion people looks like? Do you think the people of Enoch were just like us? Do you think we just need to tweek a little here and there and hey presto along comes Zion?

If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got.

You trust in your gun, and I'll trust in my God.
OK, blessings on you.

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Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Robin Hood »

Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 9:10 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 9:03 am
Silver wrote: November 17th, 2017, 8:35 am
Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 7:47 am

Jesus said those who lived by the sword would die by the sword.
A sword is just a tool. But Jesus still reprimanded Peter for using it in defence... even of him.

When the Lord promises that he will protect us on condition of our complete faith in him, we are faced with a choice. We can believe him and put our whole trust in him completely, or we can believe him but have a Plan B just in case.
The next step is to justify Plan B, have Peter reprimand Jesus, and even try to pass it off as God's will.

Which approach do you think is closer to Zion?
RH, you're waxing philosophical and taking the discussion away from the reality that has existed since the first day Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden. If Adam, the first man, didn't fashion a spear or knife from materials available, how could he protect himself and Eve from the lions, tigers and bears that were no longer the cuddly herbivores they knew in the Garden?

Do you get it? At that time there weren't even other men with mean black rifles from whom Adam needed to defend himself. As long as Eve didn't go Lorena Bobbit on Adam, he would not need to defend himself from her, the only other person on Earth (which is spherical) at the time. However, Adam had the right, and the duty, to defend his little family of two. God gave Adam the natural right to defend himself. If Adam had succumbed to a bear attack, you wouldn't be bishop nor would you be blessed with the opportunity to read the wisdom that flows from my fingertips.

Now let's say you, RH, were attacked by a lion or an evil man -- it doesn't matter which. Are you going to kneel, bare your chest and offer your life willingly? If you are weaponless, as is your preference, you may opt to run away to avoid being killed. However, based on your twisted logic, you would be a faithless sinner for doing so.

Why? Because you are using tools, your feet, to avoid death. The scriptures clearly say, "If thy (feet) offend thee, cast them far from thee." See how ridiculous you've made the simple act of self-preservation?
Adam did not have to protect himself from the wild animals. The enmity between man and the animal kingdom came later.
Nibley addressed this issue extensively when he explained the role and behaviour of Nimrod. I'm quite surprised you didn't know that.

Do you have any idea what being a Zion people looks like? Do you think the people of Enoch were just like us? Do you think we just need to tweek a little here and there and hey presto along comes Zion?

If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got.

You trust in your gun, and I'll trust in my God.
OK, blessings on you.
And upon you my friend.

Benjamin_LK
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2502
Location: Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Benjamin_LK »

Silver wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:41 pm Does the Book of Mormon teach that we are authorized to defend ourselves unto bloodshed, if necessary?

Yes, it does.

Those who argue otherwise remind me of the evangelical Christians who shout that they are saved by grace while studiously ignoring James' inspired teaching that "Faith without works is dead."
The Bible does too. Using lethal force against Burgulars in your house is authorized as well. Put in mind that these two books make a whole.

Joseph Smith saved the lives of Taylor and Richards by shooting at people and drawing their fire to himself. John Taylor became the prophet after Brigham Young, years later, and that's just getting started about Carthage and what happened there. A lot of people miss the big picture.

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Arenera
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Posts: 2712

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

Benjamin_LK wrote: November 17th, 2017, 9:57 am
Silver wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:41 pm Does the Book of Mormon teach that we are authorized to defend ourselves unto bloodshed, if necessary?

Yes, it does.

Those who argue otherwise remind me of the evangelical Christians who shout that they are saved by grace while studiously ignoring James' inspired teaching that "Faith without works is dead."
The Bible does too. Using lethal force against Burgulars in your house is authorized as well. Put in mind that these two books make a whole.

Joseph Smith saved the lives of Taylor and Richards by shooting at people and drawing their fire to himself. John Taylor became the prophet after Brigham Young, years later, and that's just getting started about Carthage and what happened there. A lot of people miss the big picture.
You are right on missing the big picture. May your guns keep you safe and sound.

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mirkwood
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Posts: 1740
Location: Utah

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by mirkwood »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 8:20 am The truth is this: Even police officers who have had to kill a criminal in the line of duty may struggle with their feelings afterward. According to Sergeant Jim Faraone, a 20-year veteran with the Salt Lake City Police Department, “It is hard on a person emotionally.” In fact, he says, “we’d be concerned if it didn’t affect them. They are going to see it again in their sleep, and play it over and over again [in their mind]. I think many officers probably put themselves in greater jeopardy, realizing the finality of letting a bullet go. It could not be a casual thing.”

Boy I sure hope you aren't trying to say that Jim Faraone was against the use of force. Nothing can be further from the truth.
A person who can casually take the life of another—even that of a violent criminal—is not the kind of person you want on your police force. And it is not the kind of person a follower of Christ would want to be.

True, but that doesn't discount that such actions are automatically unjustified. You should have read what was said more closely.


Consider the experience of Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. Some years ago, Elder Oaks was living in Chicago when one night he was confronted by a young robber with a gun. Elder Oaks had no money to give him, no watch, nothing of value except his car—and his wife was in the car. Both Elder Oaks and his wife were at great risk. During the encounter, Elder Oaks had an opportunity to grab the gun without the likelihood of being shot. “I was taller and heavier than this young man,” Elder Oaks explains, “and at that time of my life was somewhat athletic. I had no doubt that I could prevail in a quick wrestling match if I could get his gun out of the contest.

“Just as I was about to make my move, I had a unique experience. I did not see anything or hear anything, but I knew something. I knew what would happen if I grabbed that gun. We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man’s chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also knew that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.

That is a great story. It doesn't support your position. This experience was in the context of personal, individual revelation, about a specific moment in time, for a specific person. As much as you want to force it into your paradigm, this was not a cry for pacifism.


Joseph Smith told us that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth. That book is filled with examples of, justification of and commandments to defend ourselves. If it is the most correct book, there must be some truth there. You all just don't like it.

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Arenera
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Posts: 2712

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

mirkwood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 10:13 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 8:20 am The truth is this: Even police officers who have had to kill a criminal in the line of duty may struggle with their feelings afterward. According to Sergeant Jim Faraone, a 20-year veteran with the Salt Lake City Police Department, “It is hard on a person emotionally.” In fact, he says, “we’d be concerned if it didn’t affect them. They are going to see it again in their sleep, and play it over and over again [in their mind]. I think many officers probably put themselves in greater jeopardy, realizing the finality of letting a bullet go. It could not be a casual thing.”

Boy I sure hope you aren't trying to say that Jim Faraone was against the use of force. Nothing can be further from the truth.
A person who can casually take the life of another—even that of a violent criminal—is not the kind of person you want on your police force. And it is not the kind of person a follower of Christ would want to be.

True, but that doesn't discount that such actions are automatically unjustified. You should have read what was said more closely.


Consider the experience of Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. Some years ago, Elder Oaks was living in Chicago when one night he was confronted by a young robber with a gun. Elder Oaks had no money to give him, no watch, nothing of value except his car—and his wife was in the car. Both Elder Oaks and his wife were at great risk. During the encounter, Elder Oaks had an opportunity to grab the gun without the likelihood of being shot. “I was taller and heavier than this young man,” Elder Oaks explains, “and at that time of my life was somewhat athletic. I had no doubt that I could prevail in a quick wrestling match if I could get his gun out of the contest.

“Just as I was about to make my move, I had a unique experience. I did not see anything or hear anything, but I knew something. I knew what would happen if I grabbed that gun. We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man’s chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also knew that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.

That is a great story. It doesn't support your position. This experience was in the context of personal, individual revelation, about a specific moment in time, for a specific person. As much as you want to force it into your paradigm, this was not a cry for pacifism.


Joseph Smith told us that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth. That book is filled with examples of, justification of and commandments to defend ourselves. If it is the most correct book, there must be some truth there. You all just don't like it.
For the 2 verses you can find in the Book of Mormon to support your gun position, I can find many others to support peace, and a higher vision.

Benjamin_LK
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2502
Location: Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Benjamin_LK »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 10:12 am
Benjamin_LK wrote: November 17th, 2017, 9:57 am
Silver wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:41 pm Does the Book of Mormon teach that we are authorized to defend ourselves unto bloodshed, if necessary?

Yes, it does.

Those who argue otherwise remind me of the evangelical Christians who shout that they are saved by grace while studiously ignoring James' inspired teaching that "Faith without works is dead."
The Bible does too. Using lethal force against Burgulars in your house is authorized as well. Put in mind that these two books make a whole.

Joseph Smith saved the lives of Taylor and Richards by shooting at people and drawing their fire to himself. John Taylor became the prophet after Brigham Young, years later, and that's just getting started about Carthage and what happened there. A lot of people miss the big picture.
You are right on missing the big picture. May your guns keep you safe and sound.
Strawman fallacy. I don't believe it's my guns that do keep me safe. You're making it up.

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David13
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by David13 »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 10:46 am
mirkwood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 10:13 am
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 8:20 am The truth is this: Even police officers who have had to kill a criminal in the line of duty may struggle with their feelings afterward. According to Sergeant Jim Faraone, a 20-year veteran with the Salt Lake City Police Department, “It is hard on a person emotionally.” In fact, he says, “we’d be concerned if it didn’t affect them. They are going to see it again in their sleep, and play it over and over again [in their mind]. I think many officers probably put themselves in greater jeopardy, realizing the finality of letting a bullet go. It could not be a casual thing.”

Boy I sure hope you aren't trying to say that Jim Faraone was against the use of force. Nothing can be further from the truth.
A person who can casually take the life of another—even that of a violent criminal—is not the kind of person you want on your police force. And it is not the kind of person a follower of Christ would want to be.

True, but that doesn't discount that such actions are automatically unjustified. You should have read what was said more closely.


Consider the experience of Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve. Some years ago, Elder Oaks was living in Chicago when one night he was confronted by a young robber with a gun. Elder Oaks had no money to give him, no watch, nothing of value except his car—and his wife was in the car. Both Elder Oaks and his wife were at great risk. During the encounter, Elder Oaks had an opportunity to grab the gun without the likelihood of being shot. “I was taller and heavier than this young man,” Elder Oaks explains, “and at that time of my life was somewhat athletic. I had no doubt that I could prevail in a quick wrestling match if I could get his gun out of the contest.

“Just as I was about to make my move, I had a unique experience. I did not see anything or hear anything, but I knew something. I knew what would happen if I grabbed that gun. We would struggle, and I would turn the gun into that young man’s chest. It would fire, and he would die. I also knew that I must not have the blood of that young man on my conscience for the rest of my life.

That is a great story. It doesn't support your position. This experience was in the context of personal, individual revelation, about a specific moment in time, for a specific person. As much as you want to force it into your paradigm, this was not a cry for pacifism.


Joseph Smith told us that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth. That book is filled with examples of, justification of and commandments to defend ourselves. If it is the most correct book, there must be some truth there. You all just don't like it.
For the 2 verses you can find in the Book of Mormon to support your gun position, I can find many others to support peace, and a higher vision.

You can find verses that support peace, but they don't negate the one that says you are not to allow your enemies to kill you.
And you have to have a way and a means to do that.
God will protect you, but it is up to you to do the footwork.
Just like God will provide for you, but it's up to you to go to work when scheduled to obtain the provisions for you.
dc

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mirkwood
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by mirkwood »

David13 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 12:09 pm You can find verses that support peace, but they don't negate the one that says you are not to allow your enemies to kill you.
And you have to have a way and a means to do that.
God will protect you, but it is up to you to do the footwork.
Just like God will provide for you, but it's up to you to go to work when scheduled to obtain the provisions for you.
dc

la la la la la I can't hear you la la la la la.

;)

larsenb
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Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Robin Hood wrote: November 16th, 2017, 12:49 am . . . .

Really?
I suggest we read the Book of Mormon properly. The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people.
Do you honestly believe people will carry guns in Zion?
The Nephites failed to establish Zion. For all Captain Moroni's efforts, untimately it was a failure. The Nephites trusted in their weapons of war more than they trusted in God and that is the situation we're in today.
I recommend people read President Kimball's 1976 sermon, and then take long hard look at our world and our personal conduct in it. In my view when we carry guns around we simply buy into the Babylonian mindset.
We trust in the arm of flesh.
"The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people. "

From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out largely because they stopped living the righteous principle of conducting only defensive warfare. I first realized this only after reading Nibley's comments on this issue, who is the first one I know of to really point out the scriptural basis for this idea. Currently, the US ( via the Bush doctrine) has started allowing offensive or 'preemptive' warfare; which I take as a very bad sign for our survival as a nation.

Carrying guns round has to do with protecting our lives and families in the context of a fairly dangerous society. Statistically, guns are used in this country to prevent crime and protect the gun carriers and those they love, at least > 67,000 times a year.

In a fully functional millenial/Zion society, these conditions will not exist. Guns won't be needed.

Robin Hood, to really understand this mindset (the need to protect yourself and family, etc.,), you should read: "Dial 911 and Die", which I've mentioned before. This book is pushed by "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" ( http://www.jpfo.org ). This site has some excellent articles explaining these ideas. Many Jews really understand this issue because of what happened to them in Nazi Germany (ref. the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc.)

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Robin Hood wrote: November 17th, 2017, 9:03 am . . . .
You trust in your gun, and I'll trust in my God.
They aren't mutually exclusive. I'll trust in God to help me use my gun correctly and appropriately. If bad guys are posing serious threat to members of my family . . . . with maybe one starting a stabbing motion with a knife in hand toward one of them, I hope God will help me remain calm enough to take a quick careful bead and get a shot off.

I think God is more apt to help those prepared to help themselves, especially in protecting members of their family . . . which we are commanded to do. So being able to protect your family, even in the most dangerous and extreme conditions, is actually keeping a commandment of God.

Maybe its partly my Vietnam experience. That tended to dissolve any illusions I had about a 'safe' society, and that somebody, or anybody could not be a potential threat to me and mine.
Last edited by larsenb on November 17th, 2017, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:06 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 16th, 2017, 12:49 am . . . .

Really?
I suggest we read the Book of Mormon properly. The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people.
Do you honestly believe people will carry guns in Zion?
The Nephites failed to establish Zion. For all Captain Moroni's efforts, untimately it was a failure. The Nephites trusted in their weapons of war more than they trusted in God and that is the situation we're in today.
I recommend people read President Kimball's 1976 sermon, and then take long hard look at our world and our personal conduct in it. In my view when we carry guns around we simply buy into the Babylonian mindset.
We trust in the arm of flesh.
"The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people. "

From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out largely because they stopped living the righteous principle of conducting only defensive warfare. I first realized this only after reading Nibley's comments on this issue, who is the first one I know of to really point out the scriptural basis for this idea. Currently, the US ( via the Bush doctrine) has started allowing offensive or 'preemptive' warfare; which I take as a very bad sign for our survival as a nation.

Carrying guns round has to do with protecting our lives and families in the context of a fairly dangerous society. Statistically, guns are used in this country to prevent crime and protect the gun carriers and those they love, at least > 67,000 times a year.

In a fully functional millenial/Zion society, these conditions will not exist. Guns won't be needed.

Robin Hood, to really understand this mindset (the need to protect yourself and family, etc.,), you should read: "Dial 911 and Die", which I've mentioned before. This book is pushed by "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" ( http://www.jpfo.org ). This site has some excellent articles explaining these ideas. Many Jews really understand this issue because of what happened to them in Nazi Germany (ref. the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc.)
Zion is the pure in heart, not the pure in AR 15s.

We have the choice to study the gun route now. As we learned from the BOM, and World War II, you might have the “tool” advantage, but not for long. If the US is invaded, good luck with your AR 15s. They will surely help with Atomic bombs.

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:19 pm . . . . Zion is the pure in heart, not the pure in AR 15s.

We have the choice to study the gun route now. As we learned from the BOM, and World War II, you might have the “tool” advantage, but not for long. If the US is invaded, good luck with your AR 15s. They will surely help with Atomic bombs.
My view of gun ownership is that they are primarily to be used as a tool in defense of me, my family and those I love, from people posing physical threat. And of course, if we are invaded, with my guns, I would be in position to join in the general defense of our nation . . . if needed and if necessary, or the defense of my immediate neighborhood against thugs, etc. You, with no guns, will be allowed to avoid this 'opportunity', if a gun or weapons aren't available to you.

In terms of using them to prevent and overcome internal tyranny, they are more problematic. In the aggregate, however, the potential tyrants are going to be given pause in pursuing their plans to fruition, in the face of such a wide-spread gun ownership in this country. This is one of the prime reasons, I believe, the 'globalists' are hell bent in outlawing gun ownership, which is almost a done-deal in California.

larsenb
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Once again, I think it is very, very unwise to advertise a specific area as a gun-free zone, especially for your home or the Church building you use. Doing so, invites these areas as much better targets for a madman bent on choosing an area where he could inflict maximum damage, without expecting retaliation.

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David13
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by David13 »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:19 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:06 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 16th, 2017, 12:49 am . . . .

Really?
I suggest we read the Book of Mormon properly. The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people.
Do you honestly believe people will carry guns in Zion?
The Nephites failed to establish Zion. For all Captain Moroni's efforts, untimately it was a failure. The Nephites trusted in their weapons of war more than they trusted in God and that is the situation we're in today.
I recommend people read President Kimball's 1976 sermon, and then take long hard look at our world and our personal conduct in it. In my view when we carry guns around we simply buy into the Babylonian mindset.
We trust in the arm of flesh.
"The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people. "

From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out largely because they stopped living the righteous principle of conducting only defensive warfare. I first realized this only after reading Nibley's comments on this issue, who is the first one I know of to really point out the scriptural basis for this idea. Currently, the US ( via the Bush doctrine) has started allowing offensive or 'preemptive' warfare; which I take as a very bad sign for our survival as a nation.

Carrying guns round has to do with protecting our lives and families in the context of a fairly dangerous society. Statistically, guns are used in this country to prevent crime and protect the gun carriers and those they love, at least > 67,000 times a year.

In a fully functional millenial/Zion society, these conditions will not exist. Guns won't be needed.

Robin Hood, to really understand this mindset (the need to protect yourself and family, etc.,), you should read: "Dial 911 and Die", which I've mentioned before. This book is pushed by "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" ( http://www.jpfo.org ). This site has some excellent articles explaining these ideas. Many Jews really understand this issue because of what happened to them in Nazi Germany (ref. the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc.)
Zion is the pure in heart, not the pure in AR 15s.

We have the choice to study the gun route now. As we learned from the BOM, and World War II, you might have the “tool” advantage, but not for long. If the US is invaded, good luck with your AR 15s. They will surely help with Atomic bombs.

So you don't believe God will protect you from atomic bombs? Oh ye of little faith ...
dc

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Arenera
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Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by Arenera »

David13 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:44 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:19 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:06 pm
Robin Hood wrote: November 16th, 2017, 12:49 am . . . .

Really?
I suggest we read the Book of Mormon properly. The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people.
Do you honestly believe people will carry guns in Zion?
The Nephites failed to establish Zion. For all Captain Moroni's efforts, untimately it was a failure. The Nephites trusted in their weapons of war more than they trusted in God and that is the situation we're in today.
I recommend people read President Kimball's 1976 sermon, and then take long hard look at our world and our personal conduct in it. In my view when we carry guns around we simply buy into the Babylonian mindset.
We trust in the arm of flesh.
"The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people. "

From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out largely because they stopped living the righteous principle of conducting only defensive warfare. I first realized this only after reading Nibley's comments on this issue, who is the first one I know of to really point out the scriptural basis for this idea. Currently, the US ( via the Bush doctrine) has started allowing offensive or 'preemptive' warfare; which I take as a very bad sign for our survival as a nation.

Carrying guns round has to do with protecting our lives and families in the context of a fairly dangerous society. Statistically, guns are used in this country to prevent crime and protect the gun carriers and those they love, at least > 67,000 times a year.

In a fully functional millenial/Zion society, these conditions will not exist. Guns won't be needed.

Robin Hood, to really understand this mindset (the need to protect yourself and family, etc.,), you should read: "Dial 911 and Die", which I've mentioned before. This book is pushed by "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" ( http://www.jpfo.org ). This site has some excellent articles explaining these ideas. Many Jews really understand this issue because of what happened to them in Nazi Germany (ref. the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc.)
Zion is the pure in heart, not the pure in AR 15s.

We have the choice to study the gun route now. As we learned from the BOM, and World War II, you might have the “tool” advantage, but not for long. If the US is invaded, good luck with your AR 15s. They will surely help with Atomic bombs.

So you don't believe God will protect you from atomic bombs? Oh ye of little faith ...
dc
If your faith is in your guns, you have missed getting the faith to have power in the priesthood.

If you want to join with your fellow AR 15s and fight the roaming bands, go for it.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by larsenb »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:57 pm
David13 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:44 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:19 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:06 pm

"The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people. "

From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out largely because they stopped living the righteous principle of conducting only defensive warfare. I first realized this only after reading Nibley's comments on this issue, who is the first one I know of to really point out the scriptural basis for this idea. Currently, the US ( via the Bush doctrine) has started allowing offensive or 'preemptive' warfare; which I take as a very bad sign for our survival as a nation.

Carrying guns round has to do with protecting our lives and families in the context of a fairly dangerous society. Statistically, guns are used in this country to prevent crime and protect the gun carriers and those they love, at least > 67,000 times a year.

In a fully functional millenial/Zion society, these conditions will not exist. Guns won't be needed.

Robin Hood, to really understand this mindset (the need to protect yourself and family, etc.,), you should read: "Dial 911 and Die", which I've mentioned before. This book is pushed by "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" ( http://www.jpfo.org ). This site has some excellent articles explaining these ideas. Many Jews really understand this issue because of what happened to them in Nazi Germany (ref. the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc.)
Zion is the pure in heart, not the pure in AR 15s.

We have the choice to study the gun route now. As we learned from the BOM, and World War II, you might have the “tool” advantage, but not for long. If the US is invaded, good luck with your AR 15s. They will surely help with Atomic bombs.

So you don't believe God will protect you from atomic bombs? Oh ye of little faith ...
dc
If your faith is in your guns, you have missed getting the faith to have power in the priesthood.

If you want to join with your fellow AR 15s and fight the roaming bands, go for it.
For me, it's not so much "miss[ing] the faith to have power in the priesthood", its more like being responsibly prepared to keep the commandment of God to defend my loved ones from harm, even to the shedding of blood.

You may find yourself in a situation, Arenera, where you are caught off guard and aren't able to marshal or ramp up your Spiritual resources to exercise that kind of faith . . . unless you are living in that heady atmosphere all the time, and have the kind of protection from God where such things never happen to you. If this is so, you are far beyond me. That would be wonderful. I rather envy you, if this is the case. It's one of my goals.

I'm normally a fairly fearless fellow, but I had the experience in the Utah West Desert, of being caught off-guard by heavily armed men (bandoliers, and all) who had just picked up a drug drop from an airplane. I won't go into detail, but I was catapulted into almost paralyzing fear, and felt that I barely got out of that by the skin of my teeth. Now, in retrospect, the reason I didn't come to harm, may very well be because of God's protection. And, I would have been hard pressed to defend myself, if if I had had a gun, but could have potentially gone down fighting and taking 1 or 2 with me.

And you misread what I'm saying, if you think I "want to join with your fellow AR-15" owners and fight the roaming bands". Couldn't be further from the truth. I just want to be prepared if conditions called for it. You apparently don't. A big difference between you and myself.

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David13
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Location: Utah

Re: Conceal carry in church

Post by David13 »

Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:57 pm
David13 wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:44 pm
Arenera wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:19 pm
larsenb wrote: November 17th, 2017, 1:06 pm

"The Nephites were wiped out. They were destroyed from off the face of the earth. Why, because they would never fully trust God and live righteously. Captain Moroni was making the best of the situation with a stiffed necked people. "

From my reading of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were wiped out largely because they stopped living the righteous principle of conducting only defensive warfare. I first realized this only after reading Nibley's comments on this issue, who is the first one I know of to really point out the scriptural basis for this idea. Currently, the US ( via the Bush doctrine) has started allowing offensive or 'preemptive' warfare; which I take as a very bad sign for our survival as a nation.

Carrying guns round has to do with protecting our lives and families in the context of a fairly dangerous society. Statistically, guns are used in this country to prevent crime and protect the gun carriers and those they love, at least > 67,000 times a year.

In a fully functional millenial/Zion society, these conditions will not exist. Guns won't be needed.

Robin Hood, to really understand this mindset (the need to protect yourself and family, etc.,), you should read: "Dial 911 and Die", which I've mentioned before. This book is pushed by "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" ( http://www.jpfo.org ). This site has some excellent articles explaining these ideas. Many Jews really understand this issue because of what happened to them in Nazi Germany (ref. the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, etc.)
Zion is the pure in heart, not the pure in AR 15s.

We have the choice to study the gun route now. As we learned from the BOM, and World War II, you might have the “tool” advantage, but not for long. If the US is invaded, good luck with your AR 15s. They will surely help with Atomic bombs.

So you don't believe God will protect you from atomic bombs? Oh ye of little faith ...
dc
If your faith is in your guns, you have missed getting the faith to have power in the priesthood.

If you want to join with your fellow AR 15s and fight the roaming bands, go for it.

My faith is in God, but I don't try to shirk my part, the footwork.
And what's with the AR15 nonsense? Is that the only gun you know of?


But you didn't answer the question. Don't you have faith in God that he will protect you from nuclear weapons?
dc

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