Conceal carry in church

[larsenb]

*sigh* you're willfully missing the point.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/te ... ooter.html

Not a police officer. Want a bunch more? Do your own research, get out of your paradigm.

The downside of models and paradigms is that they can trap people in them. Models are only truly good when they have give a true view of what they are describing and/or are predictive, otherwise they can become traps.

It's is normally a waste of time to get into a discussion/argument with people who are thusly trapped.

A sign of someone in this condition, is that whatever point you may make in a discussion, or how ever logical it may be, the trapped person will barely, if ever, respond or acknowledge or refute the point or information you provide.

The 'bifurcation' logical error normally is very pervasive in the arguments provide by people trapped by their models, along with unwarranted generalizations, of one stripe or another.

I see this again and again, and then again, on forum discussions such as this one. I personally try to avoid such things. Not always successful, but being aware of the danger helps.

[Arenera]

*sigh* you're willfully missing the point.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/08/te ... ooter.html

Not a police officer. Want a bunch more? Do your own research, get out of your paradigm.

The downside of models and paradigms is that they can trap people in them. Models are only truly good when they have give a true view of what they are describing and/or are predictive, otherwise they can become traps.

It's is normally a waste of time to get into a discussion/argument with people who are thusly trapped.

A sign of someone in this condition, is that whatever point you may make in a discussion, or how ever logical it may be, the trapped person will barely, if ever, respond or acknowledge or refute the point or information you provide.

The 'bifurcation' logical error normally is very pervasive in the arguments provide by people trapped by their models, along with unwarranted generalizations, of one stripe or another.

I see this again and again, and then again, on forum discussions such as this one. I personally try to avoid such things. Not always successful, but being aware of the danger helps.

Imagine people having a different opinion...Your logic on your opinion always seems right.

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

[mirkwood]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Smug self righteousness.

[Arenera]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Smug self righteousness.

Have you noticed the names ya’ll are calling..

[Joel]

Elderly man accidentally shoots wife at Tennessee church during talk about church shooting

Tennessee man accidentally shot himself and his wife at church during a discussion about the recent massacre at a Texas church.

Elder members of First United Methodist Church in Tellico Plains were meeting Thursday afternoon to eat a Thanksgiving dinner when the mass shooting came up, and one of them asked if anyone brought their gun to church, reported WATE-TV.

Police said a man in his 80s pulled out a .380 caliber Ruger handgun and boasted, “I carry my handgun everywhere.

The man removed the magazine, cleared the chamber and showed the weapon to some other men, then put the magazine back in, evidently loaded a round into the chamber and returned the gun to his holster, police said.

Someone else walked up and asked to see the gun, police said, and the man took out the weapon again.

He pulled it back out and said, ‘With this loaded indicator, I can tell that it’s not loaded,'” according to Police Chief Russ Parks.

He then pulled the trigger, apparently forgetting he had put a round in the chamber.

The gun was lying on its side on a table, and the bullet sliced the man’s palm and entered the left side of his wife’s abdomen and exited the right.

Both of them were hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries.

No charges will be filed in the shooting, police said.

[mirkwood]

Have you noticed the names ya’ll are calling..

I have not called you a single name, yet you have repeatedly referred to me (and others) as Telestial in a condescending manner. Look in the mirror.

[Robin Hood]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

[Silver]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

RH, you're denying history again. The Joseph to whom you refer used a pistol to try to kill his attackers in Carthage jail. We are obviously miles apart on this issue, but I won't let you rewrite history. Joseph Smith was the leader of the Nauvoo Legion, a nasty little militia with guns. Guns, RH, guns that shoot, and make noise, and kill people and horrible stuff like that. You cannot pretend away the fact that he, the Prophet of the Restoration, knew the proper role of guns in society. Your attempts to "guilt" us with references to a Telestial mindset are in vain. When I make it to the Celestial Kingdom, I am going to design and manufacture my own guns just to spite you. I will make them so powerful they can hit you down in the Terrestrial Kingdom where you'll be sent for not being valiant in supporting the God-given right to defend oneself.

I'm sorry that you live in a country which has largely neutered men from protecting their loved ones and their homes. Your anti-gun bias exists in some degree due to where you live. Luckily, I live in America, which, in spite of its many, many faults, still allows me to possess weapons for defense. The day is coming however when the right to self-defense will be tested even here, in the only land where the Gospel had a chance of being restored. In a land with a God-inspired Constitution which recognizes God-given rights.

[David13]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

[larsenb]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Joseph used a gun to shoot back at the mobbers coming up the stairs for him and his companions in the Carthage Jail. As I recall, he actually shot one or more of them.

Was Joseph trapped in a "Telestial/Babylonian" mindset when he did this??

[Robin Hood]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

And even in that "free country" the Saints were murdered and raped, chased from their homes, and had the supposed political guardians of the constitution issue an extermination order against them. The Saints were thrown out of Missouri and Illinois at gun point (by the way, none of that would have happened in England; a civilised nation ).
How come they didn't just shoot back? Are you really accusing Joseph, Brigham and all of the priesthood of "neglecting and omitting an important part of (their) priesthood authority"? Were they "emasculated"?
Let's face it, according to your worldview, the Saints ran away.

So, a question or two. What did Jesus mean when he said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword? What did he mean when he told us to turn the other cheek? Do you agree with Jesus that we should love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?

[Robin Hood]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Joseph used a gun to shoot back at the mobbers coming up the stairs for him and his companions in the Carthage Jail. As I recall, he actually shot one or more of them.

Was Joseph trapped in a "Telestial/Babylonian" mindset when he did this??

Yes, I believe he probably was, just like the rest of us.
But this should not come as a surprise to us. As far as we are aware, the only people who ever managed to break free of the stranglehold this mindset has upon us were Moses, Elijah, John, the Three Nephites, and Enoch's people.

Let's must keep in mind that Joseph firing a pistol at the mobbers achieved nothing. They still killed him and his brother. It made absolutely no difference to the outcome.
Live by the sword you die by the sword.

[lundbaek]

I wonder how many of you are aware of the "Send a Gun to Defend an English Home" program that started back when England was actually threatened by invasion by Germany ("Wir Fahren Gegen England"). Americans were asked to donate personal, privately owned guns to some organization that managed to get them to England. I've read that after the war those guns, presumably most of them at least, were dumped in the sea somewhere off Southend.

[Silver]

Joseph fired the pistol to save the others. He was very well aware of why the mobbers came to Carthage jail that day. Those servants of Satan weren't there to kill Willard Richards.

Joseph went to the window to save the others. If he landed on the ground alive, the evil men there would have shot him and stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered. If he died in the window or on the way down, the evil men there would have stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered.

Joseph sacrificed his life to save the others.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13) RH, you're wrong about Joseph having a Telestial mindset.

And you're wrong about the use of guns for defensive purposes. If this discussion were being held 1,000 years ago, would you be poo-pooing on spears or high-capacity quivers? A gun is a tool. A tool. It can be used for good or evil, but of itself it is neither good nor evil.

[Robin Hood]

We're never going to agree to on this.
A gun is a tool, but a tool designed exclusively for killing. Unlike a lorry for example.
I mean, the Olympic committee didn't think up a new sport one day, saying "let's have a target and get someone to invent something we can use to shoot at it that isn't an arrow". The gun was invented with the sole purpose of killing people. It wasn't invented to kill animals or knock cans off a wall etc. It was designed to kill human beings.

Most tools have a primary use. A hammer knocks in a nail, a chainsaw fells a tree. I can use those tools for another purpose if I choose. I could hit you over the head or decapitate you with them. These tools would be very effective in this scenario. But that would constitute a misuse of these otherwise useful tools.
When a gun is used to kill someone, it is not a misuse of the gun in and of itself. It is exactly what the gun was designed to do.

[David13]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

And even in that "free country" the Saints were murdered and raped, chased from their homes, and had the supposed political guardians of the constitution issue an extermination order against them. The Saints were thrown out of Missouri and Illinois at gun point (by the way, none of that would have happened in England; a civilised nation ).
How come they didn't just shoot back? Are you really accusing Joseph, Brigham and all of the priesthood of "neglecting and omitting an important part of (their) priesthood authority"? Were they "emasculated"?
Let's face it, according to your worldview, the Saints ran away.

So, a question or two. What did Jesus mean when he said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword? What did he mean when he told us to turn the other cheek? Do you agree with Jesus that we should love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?

The saints didn't run away. They were grossly outnumbered. They indeed did fight back and died doing so. Just like the Norman invasion of England.

Your nation is civilized today except for the violent Islamic invasion that will exterminate you soon. You may have hidden your head in the ground on the issue, but if you watch news reports, they are raping and pillaging, and marching in your streets, beating your subjects as they go.

And for the vast and bloody history your nation has, it would be 'civilized". Why was Hadrian's wall built? Because the Roman's felt they could not subdue the Scots, the heathens to the north. That was after the English surrendered, so you weren't really civilized, you were Romanized.

And later Normanized. Who was Clement Atlee? Except for Churchill the English have a great history of appeasement and capitulation.

The Saints fought the best they could.

Are you familiar with Porter Rockwell and the plans made to defend the church against the war the United States declared on the Saints and the church? They were prepared for a great battle, which, due to the United States realizing their unconstitutional error, was avoided.

Have you ever heard of the Mormon Battalion? If you visit San Diego there is a history museum there with a nice exhibit to their contribution to the war between the states.

Did civilized England ever have a civil war? What happened to the King then?

Ah, Robin Hood, you twist everything, including scripture, to suit your concept of unilateral disarmament. Again, it's common where you live, and why Americans had to fight WWII for you. Otherwise you'd be posting in German now.
dc

The persecutors of the saints in this country were not guardians of the Constitution. They were criminals. Indeed we don't hate Liliburn Boggs.

We forgive him as we have been forgiven.


Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. A soldier may kill, or be killed. It's simple really.

We don't live by the sword, but we follow scripture.

The Saints moved where persecution was too great to make a stand. But they went west, found and established their own land, and made a stand, with guns to defend it, as commanded by the word of God. And the process isn't over yet.

I guess you just don't know much about your own history, or American or church history.

Turning the other cheek means not becoming contentious and argumentative. And having patience for those who do not or cannot or refuse to understand the history.

Doing good means trying to educate a fellow on scripture and history.

You haven't answered my question:

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN:

Alma 43
46 ... ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

Yes, it does mean that when they come into the church and shoot one, or two people, you are to shoot them to stop them.

It was done in Texas recently, only the one who shot him had to come from across the street to do it, as the parishioners in the church failed in their duty to defend their families unto the shedding of blood. That was due to the deadly and inaccurate and misguided interpretation of scripture by their pastor which resulted in far more deaths.

dc

[David13]

We're never going to agree to on this.
A gun is a tool, but a tool designed exclusively for killing. Unlike a lorry for example.
I mean, the Olympic committee didn't think up a new sport one day, saying "let's have a target and get someone to invent something we can use to shoot at it that isn't an arrow". The gun was invented with the sole purpose of killing people. It wasn't invented to kill animals or knock cans off a wall etc. It was designed to kill human beings.

Most tools have a primary use. A hammer knocks in a nail, a chainsaw fells a tree. I can use those tools for another purpose if I choose. I could hit you over the head or decapitate you with them. These tools would be very effective in this scenario. But that would constitute a misuse of these otherwise useful tools.
When a gun is used to kill someone, it is not a misuse of the gun in and of itself. It is exactly what the gun was designed to do.

Hoodie, it seems no matter which way you turn you end up getting it all wrong.

The gun was indeed built and designed and developed as a hunting tool. It still is primarily used as such. I now live in the heart, the middle of prime hunting territory. That's all they talk about here now, is how they got a deer or an elk.

And you don't seem to know your Olympics much also. Indeed they DO have shooting competition, hitting a target.

You also don't seem to understand rattle snakes, and how guns stop them from biting a person.

You are now grasping at straws, very common when one gets close to realizing how wrong his interpretation is.
dc

[Robin Hood]

Joseph fired the pistol to save the others. He was very well aware of why the mobbers came to Carthage jail that day. Those servants of Satan weren't there to kill Willard Richards.

Joseph went to the window to save the others. If he landed on the ground alive, the evil men there would have shot him and stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered. If he died in the window or on the way down, the evil men there would have stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered.

Joseph sacrificed his life to save the others.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13) RH, you're wrong about Joseph having a Telestial mindset.

And you're wrong about the use of guns for defensive purposes. If this discussion were being held 1,000 years ago, would you be poo-pooing on spears or high-capacity quivers? A gun is a tool. A tool. It can be used for good or evil, but of itself it is neither good nor evil.

I'm sorry Silver, but you're going to have to reference that. It 's a bit of a stretch in my view and certainly romanticises the martydom beyond anything which is historically justified.

[David13]

I wonder how many of you are aware of the "Send a Gun to Defend an English Home" program that started back when England was actually threatened by invasion by Germany ("Wir Fahren Gegen England"). Americans were asked to donate personal, privately owned guns to some organization that managed to get them to England. I've read that after the war those guns, presumably most of them at least, were dumped in the sea somewhere off Southend.

Indeed, just another example of the English getting it all wrong going into the situation, and all wrong coming out of the situation.

If it wasn't for the Americans and their guns and other war armaments (and their men who used those guns) Robin Hood would be posting in German today.
dc

[Robin Hood]

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

And even in that "free country" the Saints were murdered and raped, chased from their homes, and had the supposed political guardians of the constitution issue an extermination order against them. The Saints were thrown out of Missouri and Illinois at gun point (by the way, none of that would have happened in England; a civilised nation ).
How come they didn't just shoot back? Are you really accusing Joseph, Brigham and all of the priesthood of "neglecting and omitting an important part of (their) priesthood authority"? Were they "emasculated"?
Let's face it, according to your worldview, the Saints ran away.

So, a question or two. What did Jesus mean when he said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword? What did he mean when he told us to turn the other cheek? Do you agree with Jesus that we should love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?

The saints didn't run away. They were grossly outnumbered. They indeed did fight back and died doing so. Just like the Norman invasion of England.

Your nation is civilized today except for the violent Islamic invasion that will exterminate you soon. You may have hidden your head in the ground on the issue, but if you watch news reports, they are raping and pillaging, and marching in your streets, beating your subjects as they go.

And for the vast and bloody history your nation has, it would be 'civilized". Why was Hadrian's wall built? Because the Roman's felt they could not subdue the Scots, the heathens to the north. That was after the English surrendered, so you weren't really civilized, you were Romanized.

And later Normanized. Who was Clement Atlee? Except for Churchill the English have a great history of appeasement and capitulation.

The Saints fought the best they could.

Are you familiar with Porter Rockwell and the plans made to defend the church against the war the United States declared on the Saints and the church? They were prepared for a great battle, which, due to the United States realizing their unconstitutional error, was avoided.

Have you ever heard of the Mormon Battalion? If you visit San Diego there is a history museum there with a nice exhibit to their contribution to the war between the states.

Did civilized England ever have a civil war? What happened to the King then?

Ah, Robin Hood, you twist everything, including scripture, to suit your concept of unilateral disarmament. Again, it's common where you live, and why Americans had to fight WWII for you. Otherwise you'd be posting in German now.
dc

The persecutors of the saints in this country were not guardians of the Constitution. They were criminals. Indeed we don't hate Liliburn Boggs.

We forgive him as we have been forgiven.


Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. A soldier may kill, or be killed. It's simple really.

We don't live by the sword, but we follow scripture.

The Saints moved where persecution was too great to make a stand. But they went west, found and established their own land, and made a stand, with guns to defend it, as commanded by the word of God. And the process isn't over yet.

I guess you just don't know much about your own history, or American or church history.

Turning the other cheek means not becoming contentious and argumentative. And having patience for those who do not or cannot or refuse to understand the history.

Doing good means trying to educate a fellow on scripture and history.

You haven't answered my question:

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN:

Alma 43
46 ... ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

Yes, it does mean that when they come into the church and shoot one, or two people, you are to shoot them to stop them.

It was done in Texas recently, only the one who shot him had to come from across the street to do it, as the parishioners in the church failed in their duty to defend their families unto the shedding of blood. That was due to the deadly and inaccurate and misguided interpretation of scripture by their pastor which resulted in far more deaths.

dc

The English weren't even in the British Isles at the time of the Romans. You need to get your history straight. And when we did arrive, we beat the Scots... eventually.
The Norman invasion was a takeover of the aristocracy, not an invasion/war in the traditional sense. The Normans were Vikings who had settled in Normandy. So the Vikings (Danes) who were already settled here were hardly going to object!

[David13]

Joseph fired the pistol to save the others. He was very well aware of why the mobbers came to Carthage jail that day. Those servants of Satan weren't there to kill Willard Richards.

Joseph went to the window to save the others. If he landed on the ground alive, the evil men there would have shot him and stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered. If he died in the window or on the way down, the evil men there would have stopped firing into the room where Joseph and the others had gathered.

Joseph sacrificed his life to save the others.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13) RH, you're wrong about Joseph having a Telestial mindset.

And you're wrong about the use of guns for defensive purposes. If this discussion were being held 1,000 years ago, would you be poo-pooing on spears or high-capacity quivers? A gun is a tool. A tool. It can be used for good or evil, but of itself it is neither good nor evil.

I'm sorry Silver, but you're going to have to reference that. It 's a bit of a stretch in my view and certainly romanticises the martydom beyond anything which is historically justified.

Wrong again. There is nothing "romantic" about a gun battle, or a murder of a man in a jail cell. It is absolutely historically correct.

Compare it to Charles the First losing his head? Did he get any of them first? No. Rather a bloody conclusion for a "civilized" nation.
dc

[David13]

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

And even in that "free country" the Saints were murdered and raped, chased from their homes, and had the supposed political guardians of the constitution issue an extermination order against them. The Saints were thrown out of Missouri and Illinois at gun point (by the way, none of that would have happened in England; a civilised nation ).
How come they didn't just shoot back? Are you really accusing Joseph, Brigham and all of the priesthood of "neglecting and omitting an important part of (their) priesthood authority"? Were they "emasculated"?
Let's face it, according to your worldview, the Saints ran away.

So, a question or two. What did Jesus mean when he said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword? What did he mean when he told us to turn the other cheek? Do you agree with Jesus that we should love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?

The saints didn't run away. They were grossly outnumbered. They indeed did fight back and died doing so. Just like the Norman invasion of England.

Your nation is civilized today except for the violent Islamic invasion that will exterminate you soon. You may have hidden your head in the ground on the issue, but if you watch news reports, they are raping and pillaging, and marching in your streets, beating your subjects as they go.

And for the vast and bloody history your nation has, it would be 'civilized". Why was Hadrian's wall built? Because the Roman's felt they could not subdue the Scots, the heathens to the north. That was after the English surrendered, so you weren't really civilized, you were Romanized.

And later Normanized. Who was Clement Atlee? Except for Churchill the English have a great history of appeasement and capitulation.

The Saints fought the best they could.

Are you familiar with Porter Rockwell and the plans made to defend the church against the war the United States declared on the Saints and the church? They were prepared for a great battle, which, due to the United States realizing their unconstitutional error, was avoided.

Have you ever heard of the Mormon Battalion? If you visit San Diego there is a history museum there with a nice exhibit to their contribution to the war between the states.

Did civilized England ever have a civil war? What happened to the King then?

Ah, Robin Hood, you twist everything, including scripture, to suit your concept of unilateral disarmament. Again, it's common where you live, and why Americans had to fight WWII for you. Otherwise you'd be posting in German now.
dc

The persecutors of the saints in this country were not guardians of the Constitution. They were criminals. Indeed we don't hate Liliburn Boggs.

We forgive him as we have been forgiven.


Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. A soldier may kill, or be killed. It's simple really.

We don't live by the sword, but we follow scripture.

The Saints moved where persecution was too great to make a stand. But they went west, found and established their own land, and made a stand, with guns to defend it, as commanded by the word of God. And the process isn't over yet.

I guess you just don't know much about your own history, or American or church history.

Turning the other cheek means not becoming contentious and argumentative. And having patience for those who do not or cannot or refuse to understand the history.

Doing good means trying to educate a fellow on scripture and history.

You haven't answered my question:

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN:

Alma 43
46 ... ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

Yes, it does mean that when they come into the church and shoot one, or two people, you are to shoot them to stop them.

It was done in Texas recently, only the one who shot him had to come from across the street to do it, as the parishioners in the church failed in their duty to defend their families unto the shedding of blood. That was due to the deadly and inaccurate and misguided interpretation of scripture by their pastor which resulted in far more deaths.

dc

The English weren't even in the British Isles at the time of the Romans. You need to get your history straight.
The Norman invasion was a takeover of the aristocracy, not an invasion/war in the traditional sense. The Normans were Vikings who had settled in Normandy. So the Vikings (Danes) who were already settled here were hardly going to object!

Well, now not just grasping at straws, but nit picking. What do you want to call the people of the area now known as England at the time of the Roman conquest of that land? Pre English?

Stop grasping at straws and nit picking, and explain why you aren't posting in German now. Because you are wrong about self defense.
That's why.
dc

[Robin Hood]

And even in that "free country" the Saints were murdered and raped, chased from their homes, and had the supposed political guardians of the constitution issue an extermination order against them. The Saints were thrown out of Missouri and Illinois at gun point (by the way, none of that would have happened in England; a civilised nation ).
How come they didn't just shoot back? Are you really accusing Joseph, Brigham and all of the priesthood of "neglecting and omitting an important part of (their) priesthood authority"? Were they "emasculated"?
Let's face it, according to your worldview, the Saints ran away.

So, a question or two. What did Jesus mean when he said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword? What did he mean when he told us to turn the other cheek? Do you agree with Jesus that we should love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?

The saints didn't run away. They were grossly outnumbered. They indeed did fight back and died doing so. Just like the Norman invasion of England.

Your nation is civilized today except for the violent Islamic invasion that will exterminate you soon. You may have hidden your head in the ground on the issue, but if you watch news reports, they are raping and pillaging, and marching in your streets, beating your subjects as they go.

And for the vast and bloody history your nation has, it would be 'civilized". Why was Hadrian's wall built? Because the Roman's felt they could not subdue the Scots, the heathens to the north. That was after the English surrendered, so you weren't really civilized, you were Romanized.

And later Normanized. Who was Clement Atlee? Except for Churchill the English have a great history of appeasement and capitulation.

The Saints fought the best they could.

Are you familiar with Porter Rockwell and the plans made to defend the church against the war the United States declared on the Saints and the church? They were prepared for a great battle, which, due to the United States realizing their unconstitutional error, was avoided.

Have you ever heard of the Mormon Battalion? If you visit San Diego there is a history museum there with a nice exhibit to their contribution to the war between the states.

Did civilized England ever have a civil war? What happened to the King then?

Ah, Robin Hood, you twist everything, including scripture, to suit your concept of unilateral disarmament. Again, it's common where you live, and why Americans had to fight WWII for you. Otherwise you'd be posting in German now.
dc

The persecutors of the saints in this country were not guardians of the Constitution. They were criminals. Indeed we don't hate Liliburn Boggs.

We forgive him as we have been forgiven.


Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. A soldier may kill, or be killed. It's simple really.

We don't live by the sword, but we follow scripture.

The Saints moved where persecution was too great to make a stand. But they went west, found and established their own land, and made a stand, with guns to defend it, as commanded by the word of God. And the process isn't over yet.

I guess you just don't know much about your own history, or American or church history.

Turning the other cheek means not becoming contentious and argumentative. And having patience for those who do not or cannot or refuse to understand the history.

Doing good means trying to educate a fellow on scripture and history.

You haven't answered my question:

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN:

Alma 43
46 ... ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

Yes, it does mean that when they come into the church and shoot one, or two people, you are to shoot them to stop them.

It was done in Texas recently, only the one who shot him had to come from across the street to do it, as the parishioners in the church failed in their duty to defend their families unto the shedding of blood. That was due to the deadly and inaccurate and misguided interpretation of scripture by their pastor which resulted in far more deaths.

dc

The English weren't even in the British Isles at the time of the Romans. You need to get your history straight.
The Norman invasion was a takeover of the aristocracy, not an invasion/war in the traditional sense. The Normans were Vikings who had settled in Normandy. So the Vikings (Danes) who were already settled here were hardly going to object!

Well, now not just grasping at straws, but nit picking. What do you want to call the people of the area now known as England at the time of the Roman conquest of that land? Pre English?

Stop grasping at straws and nit picking, and explain why you aren't posting in German now. Because you are wrong about self defense.
That's why.
dc

They weren't English, they were Britons; a Celtic people. There was no England, ie. land of the Angles. It was known as Britannia at the time of the Romans, and as Albion before that.
The English arrived after the Romans left.

The reason I'm not posting in German right now is because Hitler was unable to invade our island because we fought the Germans off, otherwise known as the Battle of Britain. The other main reason was the stunning victory of the Soviets on the eastern front.

Another reason we went on to win the war, as apposed to just not being invaded/conquered, was because of American involvement.

But I believe the main reason was because it was God's will.

[Arenera]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

Mormons. Guns. Strong. Masculine.

[larsenb]

Imagine priesthood power...well, when people are entrenched in the Telestial mindset, they don’t see or want or believe in the higher.

Absolutely agree.
It is the Telestial/Babylonian mindset which informs much of this debate.
Nearly 200 years on and we've learned nothing. Joseph would turn in his grave.

Robin Hood and Arenera, I do not agree with you on this.

You are neglecting and omitting an important part of your Priesthood responsibility, as set for and given to us by the word of God. You do so due I suppose to your emasculated environment, where the subjects live as sheep, and not citizens.

I guess that's why the gospel was restored where it was restored, in a free country, to the extent that our freedom still exists. Because when socialism/communism take over they destroy and prohibit religion. It competes with the sovereignty and sanctity of government. Where government is the only god that you are allowed.

In the United States we actually believe that our God is a higher authority than the government, not the other way around. Perhaps in your country you are not allowed to believe that, based on the Monarchy being the supreme power and all, even as that power has now mostly been transferred to the government.

So, like Silver posts, your "guilt trip" just might be more applicable to you.
dc

Mormons. Guns. Strong. Masculine.

Arenera. No guns. Weak. Feminine?? Shirks primary responsibility of defending self, family and loved-ones?? Could this really be?? I hope not.

Nephites. Weapons. Strong . . . Able to fend off Lamanite attackers.