Question and advice

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
cappaccio
captain of 100
Posts: 155

Question and advice

Post by cappaccio »

Question: What does the handbook say about when an 18 years old should/could be ordained Elders to the Melchizedek PH?

Situation: My son just turned 18, he has been really excited to start going to EQ with me and has asked me many questions about the Melchizedek PH. He does not want to continue to go to Priest Quorum. He is a High School Senior. Today he came with me to EQ and the YM Pres and Priests Advisor came in and made a big deal about him being in the wrong Quorum, said he isn't an Elder and he was in the wrong meetings. I didn't fight it, didn't want to make a big deal out of it. My wife and I have made an appointment with the Bishop this Tuesday to discuss this with him.

I have known YM that were ordained as Elders in high school. The YM president has made many comments to my son that he will not be able to be ordained an Elder while still in HS. My son will either be with me in EQ or he will stop going.......so what is the right way to handle this?

I would like your thoughts. Thanks

User avatar
BYULAWGUY
captain of 50
Posts: 71

Handbook 2 8.8

Post by BYULAWGUY »

 
8.8 Conferring the Melchizedek Priesthood on 18-Year-Old Young Men
Worthy brethren may receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and be ordained elders when they are 18 years old or older. Based on individual circumstances, such as a young man’s testimony and maturity, school graduation, desire to continue with peers, and college attendance, the bishop determines whether a young man should be ordained an elder soon after his 18th birthday or remain with the priests quorum longer. In making this decision, the bishop consults first with the young man and his parents. By age 19, or prior to leaving home to attend college, serve in the military, or accept full-time employment, all worthy brethren should be ordained elders.

Young Men leaders and elders quorum leaders work together to make the transition into the elders quorum successful for each young man.

User avatar
David13
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7072
Location: Utah

Re: Question and advice

Post by David13 »

cappaccio wrote: October 22nd, 2017, 7:02 pm Question: What does the handbook say about when an 18 years old should/could be ordained Elders to the Melchizedek PH?

Situation: My son just turned 18, he has been really excited to start going to EQ with me and has asked me many questions about the Melchizedek PH. He does not want to continue to go to Priest Quorum. He is a High School Senior. Today he came with me to EQ and the YM Pres and Priests Advisor came in and made a big deal about him being in the wrong Quorum, said he isn't an Elder and he was in the wrong meetings. I didn't fight it, didn't want to make a big deal out of it. My wife and I have made an appointment with the Bishop this Tuesday to discuss this with him.

I have known YM that were ordained as Elders in high school. The YM president has made many comments to my son that he will not be able to be ordained an Elder while still in HS. My son will either be with me in EQ or he will stop going.......so what is the right way to handle this?

I would like your thoughts. Thanks

I think the important thing is, that no matter what the decision at this time, you need to keep going to your quorum, and your son needs to continue going to whichever quorum they determine him to be in.
It's more important to go than which quorum he is in.
dc

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Question and advice

Post by brianj »

I don't know if you graduate from priests quorum when you turn 18 or when you finish high school, but when I have known several priests to attend elders quorum when before being ordained an elder. If an 18 year old girl is kicked out of young women, why should an 18 year old boy be compelled to attend priests?

I would definitely suggest asking your Bishop. If people have a problem with an adult joining the elders, ask them why we don't see middle age converts sent to the priests quorum and why elders can expect an invitation to attend with high priests when they hit their 40s or 50s.

User avatar
cappaccio
captain of 100
Posts: 155

Re: Question and advice

Post by cappaccio »

Thank You.
We will be visiting with our Bishop. I like how the handbook words the direction. I think it is different for each YM. I think I am more upset at how the YM president is handling it and acting like I don't have a choice as his Father, he didn't want ask me what I thought, just pull my son from a meeting, very rudely I think.

I do think my son is ready, based on the questions he is asking me about PH Blessings and such. He has been going to the Temple with his friends the past 6 months to perform Baptisms for the Dead and he wants to be able to perform those Baptisms, though I think he needs to be Endowed as well, that I think needs to wait until after graduation in preparation for a mission.

brianj, it is funny you mention an 18 year old girl being kicked out of YW. We had this happen to one of our neighbors this year, she wanted to continue to attend YW with her sister who is also a Laurel......she was flat out denied, and stopped coming to Church all together, she is now in Logan at USU and has decided to not attend Church.....do I think that is because she was kicked out of YW? No, other issues have to part of that reason, but I do think it would have been ok to let her attend YW for 4 months before she went off to school.

User avatar
kgrigio
captain of 100
Posts: 423
Location: Iowa

Re: Question and advice

Post by kgrigio »

brianj wrote: October 22nd, 2017, 7:43 pm I don't know if you graduate from priests quorum when you turn 18 or when you finish high school, but when I have known several priests to attend elders quorum when before being ordained an elder. If an 18 year old girl is kicked out of young women, why should an 18 year old boy be compelled to attend priests?
18 year old young women who have not graduated high school are not "kicked out of young women". Being in the bishopric of a ward with both ym and yw that are 18, but have not graduated (early birthdays) they are all still participating in the ym and yw programs. We did talk about one girl last year that was in the same boat that wanted to go to RS and we didn't stop her, mainly because it wouldn't have mattered what we said. For the most part it is a non-issue and most kids just stick with the ym/yw programs until after high school. We even have yw who have graduated and are 18 and still want to be apart of the yw for the summer months due to girls camp and activities. For the most part we still let them, although the yw president wishes would move on to RS.

It all comes down to what is stated in the handbook and quoted above. It is up to the Bishop, ym/yw leaders and parents. The only thing I have found that can somewhat be construed as 18 year old waiting until after high school is for a young man that receives his mission call and getting his endowments. My son was in this boat and they don't want a young man getting his endowments out while still in high school, the whole garments in the locker room talk is hard enough with men. He went almost three months with his call before being ordained an elder and getting his endowments out.

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: Question and advice

Post by gardener4life »

I wonder if the other boys in the young men aren't getting along with your son, or not treating him well? Normally they would rather be with people their own age! I'd seen in many instances young men or young women will prefer being with their own age over being with 'those old people'. So if he's not comfortable being in young men then something isn't right. (This could mean being alienated too and not outright stating specific incidents')

Anyway try to work it out.

For both sides this shouldn't be an all or nothing. Everyone should be on the same page that people aren't expendable and that it can be worked out. All sides should also come together with love and not 'this has to be my way or else'. You can also look for guidance from the spirit, and I'd spent time reading the book of mormon together with your son to get him ready for this (daily). One thing in my mind is that youth are pretty vulnerable at this age. Satan is working extra hard on them now because this age the results of their choices can really either give them a life or chain them down. I'd try to hit home that there is sometimes adversity in life, and that you can get this worked out with the scriptures as examples how to deal with adversity.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Question and advice

Post by brianj »

kgrigio wrote: October 22nd, 2017, 8:10 pm
brianj wrote: October 22nd, 2017, 7:43 pm I don't know if you graduate from priests quorum when you turn 18 or when you finish high school, but when I have known several priests to attend elders quorum when before being ordained an elder. If an 18 year old girl is kicked out of young women, why should an 18 year old boy be compelled to attend priests?
18 year old young women who have not graduated high school are not "kicked out of young women". Being in the bishopric of a ward with both ym and yw that are 18, but have not graduated (early birthdays) they are all still participating in the ym and yw programs. We did talk about one girl last year that was in the same boat that wanted to go to RS and we didn't stop her, mainly because it wouldn't have mattered what we said. For the most part it is a non-issue and most kids just stick with the ym/yw programs until after high school. We even have yw who have graduated and are 18 and still want to be apart of the yw for the summer months due to girls camp and activities. For the most part we still let them, although the yw president wishes would move on to RS.

It all comes down to what is stated in the handbook and quoted above. It is up to the Bishop, ym/yw leaders and parents. The only thing I have found that can somewhat be construed as 18 year old waiting until after high school is for a young man that receives his mission call and getting his endowments. My son was in this boat and they don't want a young man getting his endowments out while still in high school, the whole garments in the locker room talk is hard enough with men. He went almost three months with his call before being ordained an elder and getting his endowments out.
I thought Handbook 2 said a young woman advances to Relief Society oh her 18th birthday.

Regardless, I am a fan of transition windows, not forcing people to stay where they are. As a young men's advisor, if a teacher's quorum president wanted to start attending priests a month early I would discourage him because of his priesthood keys. But I would support any other teacher leaving a little early. If someone wants to go to elders when he turns 18 or stick with priests for a few extra months, I think it should be permitted. I don't know what's up this YM president's rear.

If it is up to the individual, their parents, and their leaders, (as I think it should be to allow for individual circumstances) then this YM president wasn't following the established guidelines.

User avatar
Yahtzee
captain of 100
Posts: 710

Re: Question and advice

Post by Yahtzee »

We just sustained an 18 year old high school senior to be ordained an elder today. I admittedly raised an eyebrow today, but that's more because this kid is a real punk, not because of his school status. For the most part I welcome it. I think if we're going to be raising the bar, we need to allow our young men and women to reach higher expectations. Stop coddling them and let them grow up. Let him learn to be a man from other men.

MMbelieve
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5072

Re: Question and advice

Post by MMbelieve »

I was discussing a related topic today with someone. I see differences in the way we categorize men and women in the church and it prompts questions for me. For example, to go to the women's conference a girl needs to be 8 years old...primary! not even young women's but to go to the priesthood session a boy needs to be 12 and have the priesthood. Why the difference? I think the girls should also be at least in YW.

Why doesn't the relief society have different groups like the priesthood does? Not status or authority but maybe age or duties? Then I thought...the men are given a disservice in the church. They are not just members that attend meetings like women do, they are priesthood. But aren't they also men in the church first? I think an 18 year old has the right to chose to go to EQ if he wants even if he doest have the proper priesthood title yet, because hes a male adult of the church. He's not the age of YM and I believe holding him back could have negative aspects for him.
Why does he have to be an Elder to be with the men? He's a man afterall...perhaps they should join the men and be welcomed into adulthood and all the various aspects of being a man, like the women are.

What makes a woman "worthy" of being in RS? Age! That's it. And they are 18 being put in a room full (or not so full) of women they are nothing like. They aren't married. They aren't mothers, or grandmothers, or otherwise experienced adults. Yet, in that room is where she belongs regardless if she fits in or not.

It's just funny to me to have these differences and at the same time it's enlightening to realize that men are not treated like men like they should be, they are "priesthood". I hope that makes sense, not trying to diminish the responsibility of the priesthood at all.

The differences between the two has led me to think the church is making things more difficult for the men and are holding them back. Women don't have such an issue, conference when baptized and RS when an adult. I mean really, a girl only has to be 8 which is a member so boys should only have to be 8, a member. But they can't go learn with the men until 4 years after girls can?

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13109
Location: England

Re: Question and advice

Post by Robin Hood »

Whether ordained an Elder or not, he can go to the Elders Quorum with his father.
What are they going to do, drag him out kicking and screaming?

gardener4life
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1690

Re: Question and advice

Post by gardener4life »

There is just one thing as an afterthought I managed to think of. And I'm not sure if this is why they are kicking up their heels or not. But by knowing it you can pray about it. Melchizedek priesthood holders being ordained to the that office, as in 'Elder', and also for High Priests are to be submitted to a sustaining vote in the meetings of the members or body of the priesthood, as part of their process going in. This is part of Stake Conference. This is in the D&C as official inspiration of the Lord. I'm not sure if this is part of why they are blocking him or not. And they are trying to help people see that process as a mentorship experience now of working with the youth and not just stamping a card without knowing if they are ready for it. If that's the case then you can help get your son ready for whatever interview questions may come about, which might be stuff like things on a temple recommend interview...do you keep the law of chastity, do you keep the word of wisdom, and do you pay tithing, among others.

For now if you read the Book of Mormon everyday with your son for awhile I think this will help you to prevent this from being a cancerous issue with him. It will help him to feel approval from the Lord, which will calm the approvals or disapprovals of others. Also it's very cool that you are looking for answers to help your family without holding back. Thumbs up.

You can do it! Hang in there. And good job for trying to be proactive parent.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Question and advice

Post by inho »

This is also relevant:
Handbook 2, 8.11

Adults who hold an Aaronic Priesthood office are members of that quorum. However, they meet with the elders or high priests for Sunday instruction. The bishop may also invite 18-year-old Aaronic Priesthood holders to meet with the elders quorum.
The word may implies that the standard is to have 18-year-old AP holder to meet with priests.

RAB
captain of 100
Posts: 175

Re: Question and advice

Post by RAB »

We have dealt with several of those issues in my prior ward. My take on the 18 YO YM was that if the YM wanted to go to Elder's Quorum, that's where he should go, and if the YW wanted to stay with the YW until after the summer of HS graduation, we didn't make a fuss about that either. We did have one YW, where the YW presidency really wanted us to help her transition because she was just too mature to be around the other YW. The Lord provided a simple solution...we gave her a calling that removed her from YW. Bishops should always remember one of the primary purposes of the Church is to support the family. As such, what the parents feel about the matter, and what the YM/YW feel about the matter should weigh most heavily in any decisions made. And to RobinHood's point, no, we would never drag someone out of a class unless it presented an actual legitimate threat or disruption to the rest of the class. Besides, 18 year olds that are not yet ordained should be considered prospective Elders, so EQ would not be a bad place to spend some time. But, staying in YM and providing an example and some leadership to the younger quorum members would not be a bad way to go either.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4066
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Question and advice

Post by brianj »

gardener4life wrote: October 23rd, 2017, 1:59 am There is just one thing as an afterthought I managed to think of. And I'm not sure if this is why they are kicking up their heels or not. But by knowing it you can pray about it. Melchizedek priesthood holders being ordained to the that office, as in 'Elder', and also for High Priests are to be submitted to a sustaining vote in the meetings of the members or body of the priesthood, as part of their process going in. This is part of Stake Conference. This is in the D&C as official inspiration of the Lord. I'm not sure if this is part of why they are blocking him or not. And they are trying to help people see that process as a mentorship experience now of working with the youth and not just stamping a card without knowing if they are ready for it. If that's the case then you can help get your son ready for whatever interview questions may come about, which might be stuff like things on a temple recommend interview...do you keep the law of chastity, do you keep the word of wisdom, and do you pay tithing, among others.

For now if you read the Book of Mormon everyday with your son for awhile I think this will help you to prevent this from being a cancerous issue with him. It will help him to feel approval from the Lord, which will calm the approvals or disapprovals of others. Also it's very cool that you are looking for answers to help your family without holding back. Thumbs up.

You can do it! Hang in there. And good job for trying to be proactive parent.
We're not discussing immediate ordination, just where he attends. There's no requirement to be an elder to join elders quorum.

I was 18 years old and eight months out of high school when I met the missionaries and atended church for the first time. I clearly recall someone saying it's too bad I was 18 so I couldn't meet with people my own age. I wasn't even baptized or ordained a priest at that time.

User avatar
cappaccio
captain of 100
Posts: 155

Re: Question and advice

Post by cappaccio »

Thank You Everybody. I will let you know how our meeting the Bishop goes.

The YM president did text my son that evening and apologized for dragging him out of EQ and that he could have figured out a better way to do that.

User avatar
cappaccio
captain of 100
Posts: 155

Re: Question and advice

Post by cappaccio »

Well we had our meeting with our Bishop..........
He was definitely blindsided by our reason to meet with him. His first comment was a very passionate NO.....our son would NOT BE ALLOWED to attend Elders Quorum. He said our son isn't ready and that our Stake President would also NEVER allow a HS student to be ordained (we have not requested him be ordained, just allowed to attend EQ).

After much discussion, back and forth he softened and agreed to speak with our son about this. He had very good advice and instruction that Priests Quorum is more geared to his age and helping him prepare for a mission. Elders is more geared to prepare for life/marriage/family......We agreed with him 100% on this aspect.....but he was also not understanding with us that we would rather him be in ANY quorum at church with us than NO quorum at all and not at church.

I have asked my son to pray about it and prepare himself to meet with the Bishop and to have an open heart and listen to him.

He was not aware that the YM president pulled my son out of EQ on Sunday.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: Question and advice

Post by JohnnyL »

MMbelieve wrote: October 23rd, 2017, 12:37 am I was discussing a related topic today with someone. I see differences in the way we categorize men and women in the church and it prompts questions for me. For example, to go to the women's conference a girl needs to be 8 years old...primary! not even young women's but to go to the priesthood session a boy needs to be 12 and have the priesthood. Why the difference? I think the girls should also be at least in YW.

Why doesn't the relief society have different groups like the priesthood does? Not status or authority but maybe age or duties? Then I thought...the men are given a disservice in the church. They are not just members that attend meetings like women do, they are priesthood. But aren't they also men in the church first? I think an 18 year old has the right to chose to go to EQ if he wants even if he doest have the proper priesthood title yet, because hes a male adult of the church. He's not the age of YM and I believe holding him back could have negative aspects for him.
Why does he have to be an Elder to be with the men? He's a man afterall...perhaps they should join the men and be welcomed into adulthood and all the various aspects of being a man, like the women are.

What makes a woman "worthy" of being in RS? Age! That's it. And they are 18 being put in a room full (or not so full) of women they are nothing like. They aren't married. They aren't mothers, or grandmothers, or otherwise experienced adults. Yet, in that room is where she belongs regardless if she fits in or not.

It's just funny to me to have these differences and at the same time it's enlightening to realize that men are not treated like men like they should be, they are "priesthood". I hope that makes sense, not trying to diminish the responsibility of the priesthood at all.

The differences between the two has led me to think the church is making things more difficult for the men and are holding them back. Women don't have such an issue, conference when baptized and RS when an adult. I mean really, a girl only has to be 8 which is a member so boys should only have to be 8, a member. But they can't go learn with the men until 4 years after girls can?
I can't imagine myself, a quick gospel learner at that age of 8, enjoying, learning, understanding, or even sitting through that session... ;)

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: Question and advice

Post by JohnnyL »

cappaccio wrote: October 24th, 2017, 11:35 pm He had very good advice and instruction that Priests Quorum is more geared to his age and helping him prepare for a mission. Elders is more geared to prepare for life/marriage/family......We agreed with him 100% on this aspect.....but he was also not understanding with us that we would rather him be in ANY quorum at church with us than NO quorum at all and not at church.
It must be different in your ward.

Priests was goofing-off, more or less.

EQ was for mission preparation--learning to hang around older men who have issues you're going to learn about and have to help with on your mission; giving lessons to older men who often know more than you do about the gospel; examples you can "touch" who have lived/ striven to live the gospel, a more "realistic" "gospel in life" feeling, etc.

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: Question and advice

Post by Lizzy60 »

My son was ordained an Elder while still in High School. There is NO hard-and-fast rule against it, so it seems problematic that your Bishop, and in his opinion your Stake President, would be 100% against it. I sense some control issues (unrighteous dominion, anyone?) going on.

User avatar
cappaccio
captain of 100
Posts: 155

Re: Question and advice

Post by cappaccio »

Update: The Bishop asked my Son and I to visit with him this past Sunday. He first apologized about how he treated us originally about the situation. He said he was confusing a section in the handbook about missionaries and had gone back and reread the sections about 18 year old young men and advancement in the PH. He is still very much suggesting that my son stay in YM until he graduates but that if my son wants to advance to the Melchizedek PH he would start that process. My son agreed he would stay in YM and pray about what he wants to do, he did ask if he could attend EQ once in a while to help him with his decision. The Bishop agreed that is a good idea.

All is well now. However I still think the YM president should apologize in person to me and my son about the scene he caused that is still being talked about.

Post Reply