The “shortage of Mormon men”

[AI2.0]

and now-a-day's their weaknesses have made it harder for women and children to be able to trust them.

and it is attitudes like these that have taught LDS men that the church is no place for them.

If you can't understand how this very statement typifies the entire discussion then there is not much more I can say.

Are you effing kidding me???????

Sarah is 100% correct. THis is not an 'attitude' some selfish, insensitive LDS women have and they are destroying their husband's fragile egos!!!!!

Let's look at this again for you, since I have to assume you didn't understand Sarah's point.

'Now-aday's their weaknesses have made it harder for women and children to be able to trust them."

Now-aday' means today and the temptations and trials that face LDS men today. The biggest temptation good striving to do right LDS men face today would be Pornography. 'Weaknesses' is not the fact that men are sexual beings, that's good. Frankly, it's a strong factor in men choosing to marry a woman and have a family with her. 'Weaknesses' means good, righteous men who for whatever reason, fall into the damaging trap of looking at pornography--which they hide from their wives and continue to live, on the surface as they know they should--often reading scriptures with family, attending church, serving in callings, even attending the temple with their wives. They live a double life and then something happens--they forget to close a window, they forget to use 'private viewing' or their wife actually catches them looking at it. Whatever, the point is that the wife (or a child) will find out the husband has been living this double life and the myth, the happy family is shatterered. This means the wife can not trust her husband because she's now aware that he's been lying to her--who knows for how long.

Are you going to deny that this is a problem? If you do, you are lying to yourself--it's happening in LDS families at an alarming rate.

Heavenly Father delights in the chastity of women (Jacob 2:28) the immorality which abounds in the secular world and is infecting the LDS community is an abomination in his eyes.

The Lord would say this to men who do this to their families--who break their wive's hearts and destroy their trust:

"Behold ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites; ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them: and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." verse 35

Is the Lord hard on men? Is Jacob being a jerk because he told the men that their 'bad examples' were hurting their wives? What were they doing that was so bad? They weren't doing anything illegal--it was legal to have wives and concubines--but God's standards are higher and he told them they couldn't follow the world. The same goes for pornography-It is not allowed for worthy priesthood holders to look at this filth. It damages the chastity of women (which the Lord abhors) and it damages the men who participate and who view it.

And it destroys trust in a marriage and family. And the Lord is not pleased and if you don't like that our church leaders take men to task over this, you need to look at your own attitudes and pride in this area. They speak to us what the Lord wants us to hear--and if that's hard for men to bear, that's too bad.

So, yes. Sarah is right--LDS men who give in to their weaknesses--to the temptations of this day, are destroying the trust their wives and children have in them.

[Fiannan]

Perhaps now you can see why some women have referred to marriage as "legalized prostitution," and why for generations women were not allowed to divorce or work outside of the home. It's so the man could control and manipulate the woman and not give her the choice of leaving. And if she was forced out for not giving the man what he wanted, she would have to beg for her and her children. So she was stuck, and had to please her man's desires for fear of the consequences if she didn't. She didn't have the freedom to leave. All this did was create an attitude of entitlement among men, and force women into their role, causing them to give sex out of fear rather than enjoy it out of love. (Unless they had wise husbands who figured out the laws of love and attraction.) No wonder feminism sprung up!

Wow, did you get that from a lecture in a women's studies course at a liberal university?

[Now it's the guys turn to resent the fact that sex is not something that comes easy after marriage. You want your freedom, and porn is your way of gaining that sexual freedom. So while you complain about being scolded for porn, you point the finger at any woman who dares leave her husband because she wants to be free to choose.

Wow, so now if a guy wants sex a woman can leave him? Is that what you are saying?

I'm not excusing women's selfish behavior, but trying to help you understand that everyone wants to feel free to choose, even in marriage, and you can't force anyone to love you or give you what you want. The only course that leads to happiness is to give and receive motivated by love, respect and appreciation, and not motivated by fear or selfishness (giving only to receive something in return.) The movie Beauty and the Beast is a great movie for conveying these principles.

No wonder I have seen so many LDS men who go through divorce and marry Asian or Latino women.

And now Disney is a source of spiritual and relationship principles? Disney???

[Sunain]

I know from experience that there is a lack of Temple Worthy Young Women in Canada. Multiple stake statistics here also prove it. So while there is a lot of eligible Mormon women in Utah, that isn't always the case for all countries and not everyone wants to live in "Happy Valley".

[Serragon]

and now-a-day's their weaknesses have made it harder for women and children to be able to trust them.

and it is attitudes like these that have taught LDS men that the church is no place for them.

If you can't understand how this very statement typifies the entire discussion then there is not much more I can say.

Are you effing kidding me???????

Sarah is 100% correct. THis is not an 'attitude' some selfish, insensitive LDS women have and they are destroying their husband's fragile egos!!!!!

Let's look at this again for you, since I have to assume you didn't understand Sarah's point.

'Now-aday's their weaknesses have made it harder for women and children to be able to trust them."

Now-aday' means today and the temptations and trials that face LDS men today. The biggest temptation good striving to do right LDS men face today would be Pornography. 'Weaknesses' is not the fact that men are sexual beings, that's good. Frankly, it's a strong factor in men choosing to marry a woman and have a family with her. 'Weaknesses' means good, righteous men who for whatever reason, fall into the damaging trap of looking at pornography--which they hide from their wives and continue to live, on the surface as they know they should--often reading scriptures with family, attending church, serving in callings, even attending the temple with their wives. They live a double life and then something happens--they forget to close a window, they forget to use 'private viewing' or their wife actually catches them looking at it. Whatever, the point is that the wife (or a child) will find out the husband has been living this double life and the myth, the happy family is shatterered. This means the wife can not trust her husband because she's now aware that he's been lying to her--who knows for how long.

Are you going to deny that this is a problem? If you do, you are lying to yourself--it's happening in LDS families at an alarming rate.

Heavenly Father delights in the chastity of women (Jacob 2:28) the immorality which abounds in the secular world and is infecting the LDS community is an abomination in his eyes.

The Lord would say this to men who do this to their families--who break their wive's hearts and destroy their trust:

"Behold ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites; ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them: and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." verse 35

Is the Lord hard on men? Is Jacob being a jerk because he told the men that their 'bad examples' were hurting their wives? What were they doing that was so bad? They weren't doing anything illegal--it was legal to have wives and concubines--but God's standards are higher and he told them they couldn't follow the world. The same goes for pornography-It is not allowed for worthy priesthood holders to look at this filth. It damages the chastity of women (which the Lord abhors) and it damages the men who participate and who view it.

And it destroys trust in a marriage and family. And the Lord is not pleased and if you don't like that our church leaders take men to task over this, you need to look at your own attitudes and pride in this area. They speak to us what the Lord wants us to hear--and if that's hard for men to bear, that's too bad.

So, yes. Sarah is right--LDS men who give in to their weaknesses--to the temptations of this day, are destroying the trust their wives and children have in them.

Although pornography is a problem, it has nothing to do with why this policy of men not being allowed to be alone with children was implemented.

[Fiannan]

Now-aday' means today and the temptations and trials that face LDS men today. The biggest temptation good striving to do right LDS men face today would be Pornography. 'Weaknesses' is not the fact that men are sexual beings, that's good. Frankly, it's a strong factor in men choosing to marry a woman and have a family with her. 'Weaknesses' means good, righteous men who for whatever reason, fall into the damaging trap of looking at pornography--which they hide from their wives and continue to live, on the surface as they know they should--often reading scriptures with family, attending church, serving in callings, even attending the temple with their wives. They live a double life and then something happens--they forget to close a window, they forget to use 'private viewing' or their wife actually catches them looking at it. Whatever, the point is that the wife (or a child) will find out the husband has been living this double life and the myth, the happy family is shatterered. This means the wife can not trust her husband because she's now aware that he's been lying to her--who knows for how long.

You do realize how many LDS women either look at porn movies alone or with their husband, don't you? You know, I read an article a couple years ago about a man who was struggling with doubts about the Church. His VERY devout wife consulted with women in the Church and every one of them asked if he was addicted to porn. She became so angry she quit the Church.

Sorry, I feel more triggered than an SJW seeing a happy couple with three children playing in a park. I have seen marriages break up over finances or over emotional traumas not at all associated with the fault of the other spouse. I have seen women in the Church who, while their husbands are off doing construction work to earn a living for the family they are busy under the sheets with one or more other men. Women are not angels. And while I do not agree with Mohammed who said few women will smell the fragrances of Paradise I do look at the abortion rate today and wonder how many of these women are finding out they are pregnant and getting an appointment without their husband's knowledge. To be honest I only know one good Protestant "Jesus girl" who did this, but that was because the husband had gotten hiself fixed and she got pregnant a year later. Amazing how that sort of thing happens.

[HappyCamper8]

...and why for generations women were not allowed to divorce or work outside of the home. It's so the man could control and manipulate the woman and not give her the choice of leaving.

Interesting. Could you provide some reference for where you learned this? Thanks.

Now it's the guys turn to resent the fact that sex is not something that comes easy after marriage.

This sums it up doesn't it? Sometimes it's not about "being equal", but about getting even. Making it "fair". To make something "fair", we have to push it too far the other way it seems.

If your wife is requiring checklists of you and is being needy or demanding, it is probably in response to how you are approaching her about sex.

This is offensive. Sorry, but it just is. A diagnosis with "probably", followed by the cure.

[Gage]

If you tell a man that he is falling short, he can rally himself to act on that, but in general, the woman will feel beat up and defeated, and may not be able to muster the energy or desire to improve.

Oh, wow. How offensive to women everywhere.

If you tell a woman she is falling short she gets upset and defensive. Or at least every woman I have ever dated was this way.

[Gage]

Gage, I'm sorry that you and your wife are having sex for the wrong reasons and it's causing you both to be resentful and become more selfish, trying to get something out of each other. Perhaps now you can see why some women have referred to marriage as "legalized prostitution," and why for generations women were not allowed to divorce or work outside of the home. It's so the man could control and manipulate the woman and not give her the choice of leaving. And if she was forced out for not giving the man what he wanted, she would have to beg for her and her children. So she was stuck, and had to please her man's desires for fear of the consequences if she didn't. She didn't have the freedom to leave. All this did was create an attitude of entitlement among men, and force women into their role, causing them to give sex out of fear rather than enjoy it out of love. (Unless they had wise husbands who figured out the laws of love and attraction.) No wonder feminism sprung up!



What? When did I say that. Im just saying if I let my wife decide I think a year would go by without it and it probably would not bother her, now I am joking to some extent but you get the idea. ALL I was trying to say is my wife does not make me feel guilty or call me selfish for asking her to come to bed. Is it selfish for her to run up a credit card for clothes and nails and hair and whatever else I pay for each month. But its now called legalized prostitution? LOL. Do I ask my wife for sex every night, nope, does she feel used and like a prostitute, not sure you would have to ask her. Cmon lady you killin me.

[Gage]

DO you think all these young women that marry rich older men are looking for love? DO you think that a woman that looks for a good provider is looking for love or a good provider? Which one is more important? Do women search for love among the poor?

[Crackers]

If you tell a man that he is falling short, he can rally himself to act on that, but in general, the woman will feel beat up and defeated, and may not be able to muster the energy or desire to improve.

Oh, wow. How offensive to women everywhere.

I can see where you might think that if you just pull that one sentence out of the hundreds I have written on this thread. Take it in context.

[HappyCamper8]

If you tell a man that he is falling short, he can rally himself to act on that, but in general, the woman will feel beat up and defeated, and may not be able to muster the energy or desire to improve.

Oh, wow. How offensive to women everywhere.

I can see where you might think that if you just pull that one sentence out of the hundreds I have written on this thread. Take it in context.

I apologize for taking it out of context. Will you please explain this in context for me? Thanks.

[PressingForward]

Sex......In our marriage we’ve done good in this department. When the “not tonight dear I have a headache” thing started, I was a little put off, when it started to be a habit, I started doing the same thing in return (now THAT WAS A HARD THING TO DO!) I told her I will never beg for sex. Didn’t take long to return to a healthy sex life. Neither of us are submissive, and neither of us would appreciate a submissive spouse.
I asked my wife to marry me because she was a very independent woman. Marriage taught us both how co-dependent we are of each other. I’m an unusual LDS man though, one reason I’m not accepted by most LDS men. I stayed at home and raised both our children.

[Gage]

Sex......In our marriage we’ve done good in this department. When the “not tonight dear I have a headache” thing started, I was a little put off, when it started to be a habit, I started doing the same thing in return (now THAT WAS A HARD THING TO DO!) I told her I will never beg for sex. Didn’t take long to return to a healthy sex life. Neither of us are submissive, and neither of us would appreciate a submissive spouse.
I asked my wife to marry me because she was a very independent woman. Marriage taught us both how co-dependent we are of each other. I’m an unusual LDS man though, one reason I’m not accepted by most LDS men. I stayed at home and raised both our children.

I accept that and wish I could stay home and raise mine. I am very jealous of your situation. I told my wife that if she holds out on me it was ok for me to step out, told her it was right there in the manual. I guess she believed me.

[Fiannan]

So any thoughts on how half the world views this issue?

[Sarah]

Perhaps now you can see why some women have referred to marriage as "legalized prostitution," and why for generations women were not allowed to divorce or work outside of the home. It's so the man could control and manipulate the woman and not give her the choice of leaving. And if she was forced out for not giving the man what he wanted, she would have to beg for her and her children. So she was stuck, and had to please her man's desires for fear of the consequences if she didn't. She didn't have the freedom to leave. All this did was create an attitude of entitlement among men, and force women into their role, causing them to give sex out of fear rather than enjoy it out of love. (Unless they had wise husbands who figured out the laws of love and attraction.) No wonder feminism sprung up!

Wow, did you get that from a lecture in a women's studies course at a liberal university?

[Now it's the guys turn to resent the fact that sex is not something that comes easy after marriage. You want your freedom, and porn is your way of gaining that sexual freedom. So while you complain about being scolded for porn, you point the finger at any woman who dares leave her husband because she wants to be free to choose.

Wow, so now if a guy wants sex a woman can leave him? Is that what you are saying?

I'm not excusing women's selfish behavior, but trying to help you understand that everyone wants to feel free to choose, even in marriage, and you can't force anyone to love you or give you what you want. The only course that leads to happiness is to give and receive motivated by love, respect and appreciation, and not motivated by fear or selfishness (giving only to receive something in return.) The movie Beauty and the Beast is a great movie for conveying these principles.

No wonder I have seen so many LDS men who go through divorce and marry Asian or Latino women.

And now Disney is a source of spiritual and relationship principles? Disney???

That little synopsis is just my logical conclusion, except the "legalized prostitution" phrase. I read that somewhere years ago and it always stuck with me because it really shocked me that someone would label marriage that way. But when I read Gage's description of his wife (he is apparently joking about) of her demanding things first and him threatening to withhold the credit card - money for sex, sex for money - not a good way to navigate a marriage.

So Fiannan, why do you think in the past women have not been allowed the same opportunities to work and receive an education, or divorce their husbands?

And I don't think you need to disparage Disney Princesses. All of the early ones were humble, meek, submissive, unselfish, and generous. Cinderella slaves away and finally gets the chance to go to the castle (temple), but she first is dressed in beautiful garments, and cleansed of her filth. She goes and meets the Prince (who is a type of the Savior), and he's left with a token and she leaves with a token (the slipper). And then of course we know the rest of the story. All these classic Disney stories teach wonderful truths.

Wow, so now if a guy wants sex a woman can leave him? Is that what you are saying?

No, I'm not saying that. Woman's duty is to remain with her husband and love him the best she can, just like it is the man's duty to remain with the wife and love her the best he can. I was only pointing out the hypocrisy of calling for more scoldings for the women while wanting the scoldings for the men to stop. Isn't that a double standard?

[Sarah]

Gage, I'm sorry that you and your wife are having sex for the wrong reasons and it's causing you both to be resentful and become more selfish, trying to get something out of each other. Perhaps now you can see why some women have referred to marriage as "legalized prostitution," and why for generations women were not allowed to divorce or work outside of the home. It's so the man could control and manipulate the woman and not give her the choice of leaving. And if she was forced out for not giving the man what he wanted, she would have to beg for her and her children. So she was stuck, and had to please her man's desires for fear of the consequences if she didn't. She didn't have the freedom to leave. All this did was create an attitude of entitlement among men, and force women into their role, causing them to give sex out of fear rather than enjoy it out of love. (Unless they had wise husbands who figured out the laws of love and attraction.) No wonder feminism sprung up!



What? When did I say that. Im just saying if I let my wife decide I think a year would go by without it and it probably would not bother her, now I am joking to some extent but you get the idea. ALL I was trying to say is my wife does not make me feel guilty or call me selfish for asking her to come to bed. Is it selfish for her to run up a credit card for clothes and nails and hair and whatever else I pay for each month. But its now called legalized prostitution? LOL. Do I ask my wife for sex every night, nope, does she feel used and like a prostitute, not sure you would have to ask her. Cmon lady you killin me.

I apologize for taking your comments to mean something they didn't. I'm glad to hear that you feel like your wife is doing fine.

[Lizzy60]

Cinderella, and also Sleeping Beauty, were NOT originally Disney Princesses. They are far, far older than the Disney versions, and their plots do have some wonderful eternal truths. However, the current crop of Disney Princesses are crap. Feminists and SJW's.

[Fiannan]

And I don't think you need to disparage Disney Princesses. All of the early ones were humble, meek, submissive, unselfish, and generous. Cinderella slaves away and finally gets the chance to go to the castle (temple), but she first is dressed in beautiful garments, and cleansed of her filth. She goes and meets the Prince (who is a type of the Savior), and he's left with a token and she leaves with a token (the slipper). And then of course we know the rest of the story. All these classic Disney stories teach wonderful truths.

The original Cinderella story - sounds more like an episode of American Horror Story: https://medium.com/@aprilknight/the-dar ... f487afe559

That little synopsis is just my logical conclusion, except the "legalized prostitution" phrase. I read that somewhere years ago and it always stuck with me because it really shocked me that someone would label marriage that way. But when I read Gage's description of his wife (he is apparently joking about) of her demanding things first and him threatening to withhold the credit card - money for sex, sex for money - not a good way to navigate a marriage.

The Bible says something totally different.

[Fiannan]

Cinderella, and also Sleeping Beauty, were NOT originally Disney Princesses. They are far, far older than the Disney versions, and their plots do have some wonderful eternal truths. However, the current crop of Disney Princesses are crap. Feminists and SJW's.

Well, Sleeping Beauty in the original story wakes up while giving birth to twins.

[Sarah]

...and why for generations women were not allowed to divorce or work outside of the home. It's so the man could control and manipulate the woman and not give her the choice of leaving.

Interesting. Could you provide some reference for where you learned this? Thanks.

Now it's the guys turn to resent the fact that sex is not something that comes easy after marriage.

This sums it up doesn't it? Sometimes it's not about "being equal", but about getting even. Making it "fair". To make something "fair", we have to push it too far the other way it seems.

If your wife is requiring checklists of you and is being needy or demanding, it is probably in response to how you are approaching her about sex.

This is offensive. Sorry, but it just is. A diagnosis with "probably", followed by the cure.

Sorry to offend you, but this is my own personal experience talking, which I realize doesn't apply to everyone, thus why I used the would "probably." Yes, I am making some assumptions. Many times when a women feels empty she will try to fill it by wanting time and money and things from her husband to fill up that emptiness. If you are giving her everything she needs physically and emotionally, she "probably" would respond with less demanding, needy behavior too.

And that phrase I used, "now its the man's turn" - probably shouldn't have used because I wasn't suggesting that woman get even, I was making an observation of what is happening in society now with women not being as submissive or accommodating as they used to be.

[Gage]

Look Sarah I am sure you are a fine woman, but man after reading some of your comments about sex in marriage and these liberal and feminist views, I dont even want to have sex anymore, I feel like I should be ashamed or something, like repentance shame. Gosh where did life get so complicated? I have sex with my wife, she has sex with me (sometimes), I mean it can be that easy, it really can be.

[captainfearnot]

None of them were originally Disney princesses. All of them come from older fairy tales, legends, or stories. (Or in the case of Pocahontas, history.)

Except Merida, but Disney stole her from Pixar. So they're still batting zero as far as original material.

[Sarah]

Look Sarah I am sure you are a fine woman, but man after reading some of your comments about sex in marriage and these liberal and feminist views, I dont even want to have sex anymore, I feel like I should be ashamed or something, like repentance shame. Gosh where did life get so complicated? I have sex with my wife, she has sex with me (sometimes), I mean it can be that easy, it really can be.

Well, with sex there is always a good, better, best, right? Just trying to help people out.

[captainfearnot]

The original Cinderella story - sounds more like an episode of American Horror Story: https://medium.com/@aprilknight/the-dar ... f487afe559

Right? Or something out of the Old Testament.

[Sarah]

Sex......In our marriage we’ve done good in this department. When the “not tonight dear I have a headache” thing started, I was a little put off, when it started to be a habit, I started doing the same thing in return (now THAT WAS A HARD THING TO DO!) I told her I will never beg for sex. Didn’t take long to return to a healthy sex life. Neither of us are submissive, and neither of us would appreciate a submissive spouse.
I asked my wife to marry me because she was a very independent woman. Marriage taught us both how co-dependent we are of each other. I’m an unusual LDS man though, one reason I’m not accepted by most LDS men. I stayed at home and raised both our children.

Love the reverse psychology, or whatever you'd call it - playing hard to get. It works! Ever hear of the book, The Rules?