The “shortage of Mormon men”

[Fiannan]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Then why are gians mentioned AFTER the flood? Also, what happened to Cain?

[Fiannan]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Adam and Eve had at least 55 children according to Josephus, but only several are mentioned by name. Obviosly the Bible is not complete.

[gardener4life]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Then why are gians mentioned AFTER the flood? Also, what happened to Cain?

Basically in short, we have a big gap in scriptures between the time that Noah's people left the ARK and the time period of Abraham. In fact we're barely even told anything about this time period except a few verses we can finish reading the sum of within about five minutes. We know that something bad happened during that time period and there was a big secret combination to overthrow the priesthood government in effect during that time. We catch glimpses of this from the Book of Ether, where they quote that their leaders kept them from teaching about the secret combinations that conspired to destroy them at that time in the time of their father's fathers. They were kept from a lot of knowledge to keep them from activating secret combinations again. Yet it says that Satan just re-whispered them to bad wicked people again. This is all hinted at in the book of Ether, and you can piece it together when you research keywords of 'works of darkness, secret acts, secret combinations' and other key phrases and from some other pieces of texts. Its not entirely obvious until you get passed only searching for key words you know but it can be fleshed out.

Thus we don't know everything about that day and we won't in this life partly because people's hearts are weak and not anchored in 'bed rock faith'. But we do know that many did NOT survive the flood. This is confirmed in D&C, Pearl of Great Price, and the other scriptures. The giants appear to have come from some of the lineage of Ham, and other people that mixed in the land of the Canaanites before Israel inherited the land of the canaanites. It's also possible that some of them came from the line of Shem but I haven't confirmed that.

But why are we kept from knowing about that period? Its because the Lord doesn't want the Gentiles to follow the secret combinations and be destroyed...earlier than they should. (Moroni hints at this in Ether Chapter 8 and in parts where the last part of Mormon and Moroni's books in the Book of Mormon are located.)

One thing I want to point out is the wicked and evil spirits that follow Satan try to discredit the spriptures. You know this? Why do they do that? They are trying to 'make God a liar'. They want to discredit Jesus too. This is obvious but its so obvious we forget it. They will always instigate people to not fully believe the scriptures by especially making it seem like God's works are impossible. This is why the Noah's Ark story is always discredited as ...'there couldn't possibly have been a flood where only 8 people survived on a planet'.

Here are some scriptures that show why and motive for why we have some gaps in the scriptures or references there of;

Ether 8:18 And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; (even as they of old...they had hints of this. Also verse 17 And it was the daughter of Jared who put it into his heart to search up these things of old; and Jared put it into the heart of Akish; wherefore, Akish administered it unto his kindred and friends, leading them away by fair promises to do whatsoever thing he desired. (What period are they referencing? The period of Nimrod!

-Jewish tradition has Nimrod as a name as a symbol of rebellion. The link below goes into it when you read the section of the Tower of Babel. It seems that Nimrod activated one of the first terrible wicked recreations of a kingdom of wickedness after the flood. And the Jaredites hint that this may be one of the sources of why their leaders hint that secret combinations were kept from being taught...and thus that whole time period was basically forbidden to be talked about? (Why would they have ONLY referenced antedeluvian periods if those people hadn't already been punished?) Nimrod was also the grandson of Ham. And other scriptures do also reference that certain others of Ham's line were upset for wanting the right to rule and to hold the priesthood but in those times because their hearts were full of wicked things they couldn't have it. Then later Nimrod's secret combination occurs.

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1998/03/i-h ... n?lang=eng (Good reading for understanding what happened with Nimrod overthrowing the right to rule, the priesthood, and shows he was the first king of the Babylonians.)

In fact it's interesting that we already know from history (nonscriptural) that Nimrod was the first king of the Babylonians...but where people have the disconnect is they fail to link 'Tower of Babel' to 'Tower of Babelonians' and that Nimrod was the founder! Oh wow...now its making sense! So Nimrod fought against the sons and grandsons of Noah (references to this are hard to find but do exist and are floating around), and that he tried kill and throw out the real priesthood to be the leader, then start the kingdom on the own. And how does he do this? He tells the people we don't need those guys, we can build our own tower to God'.

Ahh, so thats why the tower of Babel was a big deal huh...interesting.

Non-scripture source but shows relevance;

The Christian Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea as early as the early 4th century, noting that the Babylonian historian Berossus in the 3rd century BC had stated that the first king after the flood was Euechoios of Chaldea, identified him with Nimrod. George Syncellus (c. 800) also had access to Berossus, and he too identified Euechoios with the biblical Nimrod. More recently, Sumerologists have suggested additionally connecting both this Euechoios, and the king of Babylon and grandfather of Gilgamos who appears in the oldest copies of Aelian (c. 200 AD) as Euechoros, with the name of the founder of Uruk known from cuneiform sources as Enmerkar.

What's interesting about this? It shows false priesthood and false kingship done by Nimrod to overthrow the freedom of the people right after the flood. Nimrod and Ham didn't have the priesthood right to rule. Yet they somehow ended up with the first kingdom? How is that possible unless they had done more than just build a tower to God. (Tower of Babel). There are missing pieces! We are kept from knowing half of it. The real issue is "they built a tower to God after overthrowing the real priesthood, and killing the real priesthood leaders of the day". Ahh, now it makes sense...I mean if there sin was only building a lousy tower than maybe the judgment was because the tower was ugly too (Just kidding). I mean when you read about the tower of Babel nobody thinks...hmmm why was building a tower so bad unless...there's more to it. OK, there was a lot of pride involved...but then you see OK pride was why Nimrod overthrew the priesthood. He put himself in front of the righteous and made himself the king. So pride really was involved too.

If you think about it another clue is that Abraham was the first real patriarchal order after Noah...um where did the others go then? Abraham was quite a long time after Noah. But he did receive the Priesthood from Melchizedek, (Shem). But where did all the others go? There are clearly a lot of missing pieces.

This is partly also why you will never see a full picture of any Nephilim references or others around that period of time or antedeluvian times because a lot of things will stay hidden until people have faith like the brother of Jared. (Promised in Ether...) And when will that be? During the Milennium.

[Spaced_Out]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Adam and Eve had at least 55 children according to Josephus, but only several are mentioned by name. Obviosly the Bible is not complete.

The earth was baptised during the flood and completely covered with water and Noah was in the ark for 370days - no other flesh that had the breath of life survived the flood - it is official teachings of the LDS church and all scripture there is no mistake and not open to interpretation. To state otherwise is to deny the prophets and spirit of revelation and the account of Noah. The only account we have of Noah is from scripture anything else is conjecture and wild imagination.

[Fiannan]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Adam and Eve had at least 55 children according to Josephus, but only several are mentioned by name. Obviosly the Bible is not complete.

The earth was baptised during the flood and completely covered with water and Noah was in the ark for 370days - no other flesh that had the breath of life survived the flood - it is official teachings of the LDS church and all scripture there is no mistake and not open to interpretation. To state otherwise is to deny the prophets and spirit of revelation and the account of Noah. The only account we have of Noah is from scripture anything else is conjecture and wild imagination.

I quoted Hugh Nibley on a related thread as to why this is not a correct interpretation.

Let me put it forth this way, pretend civilization as we know it ends, all records are lost because Mormons put things on computer and due to the destruction of the electrical grid everything gets erased. However, someone finds a box full of old Ensigns with General Conference talks dating from 1970 - 2000. During those years just about all references to anything political will be focused on the United States. How often will events in North Korea be mentioned? Probably not at all. Obviously the Church leadership being located in the USA makes the focus on what happens in the USA. That was the same with Noah. Do you think he even preached to far-flung corners of the earth containing primitive peoples? No, he was concerned with the millions of people who made up his civilization. And after the flood would he have mentioned surviving peoples in other parts of the world? Probably not.

[Fiannan]

The earth was baptised during the flood and completely covered with water and Noah was in the ark for 370days

And God made Adam out of a dirt clod and made Eve out of a stolen bone. Come on, we know that much of the Old Testament is symbolic. Having a "burning of the bossum" does not mean someone has to grab a fire extinnguisher and spray you before you die from burns.

[Spaced_Out]

The earth was baptised during the flood and completely covered with water and Noah was in the ark for 370days

And God made Adam out of a dirt clod and made Eve out of a stolen bone. Come on, we know that much of the Old Testament is symbolic. Having a "burning of the bossum" does not mean someone has to grab a fire extinnguisher and spray you before you die from burns.

I heard in general conference that an apostle noted that all over animals have an extra set of ribs more than humans due to God having taken a rib to make Eve. If a medical specialist an apostle says so it is so... So has the spirit of God acknowledge the doctrine to me...These things have to be spiritually understood as natural man understands not the things of God.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng
When Eve was created—when her body was made by God—Adam exclaimed, “Bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man” (Moses 3:23).

From the rib of Adam, Eve was formed (see Gen. 2:22; Moses 3:22; Abr. 5:16). Interesting to me is the fact that animals fashioned by our Creator, such as dogs and cats, have thirteen pairs of ribs, but the human being has one less with only twelve. I presume another bone could have been used, but the rib, coming as it does from the side, seems to denote partnership. The rib signifies neither dominion nor subservience, but a lateral relationship as partners, to work and to live, side by side.

[Fiannan]

I heard in general conference that an apostle noted that all over animals have an extra set of ribs more than humans due to God having taken a rib to make Eve. If a medical specialist an apostle says so it is so... So has the spirit of God acknowledge the doctrine to me...These things have to be spiritually understood as natural man understands not the things of God.

Didn't Brigham Young say that the bodies of Adam and Eve were from other worlds?

Also, men and women have the same number of ribs.

[mcusick]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Then why are gians mentioned AFTER the flood? Also, what happened to Cain?

Cain died. Cain is not immortal. Implicit in the Lord's cursing is that Cain could be killed.

Folklore should not inform your understanding.

[Fiannan]

Interesting. So the Nephilim were merely sons and daughters of priesthood holders? Were did the giants come from that tried to kill Noah and why did many survive the flood?

Only 8 people survived the flood - it is confirmed in the NT, OT and D&C..

Then why are gians mentioned AFTER the flood? Also, what happened to Cain?

Cain died. Can is not immortal. Implicit in the Lord's cursing is that Cain could be killed.

Folklore should not inform your understanding.

That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims

Deuteronomy 2:20

[JohnnyL]

I seriously wish someone would talk to us sisters about avoiding porn.

I was in a stake conference where a GA noted that many women were looking at porn in the Church but he also noted that it was more serious for men because they had the priesthood.

Wait, don't women have a uterus? Isn't that equally as important?

I listen to my husband and male friends and hear the familiar discouragement in their voices.

I feel sorry for men who have high empathy and high levels of guilt. I believe such men wind up hurting and thus are weeded out of our religion far more than those who do not have such high levels of these emotions.

Maybe so. But, they are also better at the Spirit, and probably, maybe strangely, commitment.

[Thinker]

This thread has been interesting.
Regarding Noah... https://youtu.be/ATGrbTN63H4

Many good points have been made & I’ve learned a couple things - thanks guys and gals.
This topic is related to other complex topics like marriage, feminism, chauvenism - even Noah’s ark! Ha ha

Some thoughts:
-Men tend to think more logically than women (generally - there’re exceptions like me).
-Internet access makes hiding inconvenient history & facts impossible & attempts to anyway, loses credibility.
-Church leaders kiss up to women while being harder on men for several reasons: projection & attempt to throw women a bone considering how men preside etc, partly maybe they sense that women take things to heart more than men, & women tend to have more influence on children (the future of the church) so care is given to not push them away.
-The porn “problem” would be less a problem if sexuality was acknowledged as part of being human rather than as a shameful thing that is mostly avoided. About 1/4 of women never orgasm during sex & that might be why sex feels more as a chore to some (& why they stop) especially when sex is viewed by such shameful restrictions.
-I hate to say this but the church is in need of real leadership - someone who sees a vision of where we need to go and leads us there. These sweet men are trying their best with the cards they have - but what can you expect from someone in their last years of life, when they struggle physically and mentally?
-Someone mentioned men divorcing and then marrying latina or asian women. I wonder what point they were trying to make. I have seen this & (this is going to sound racist which I’m not but), in those cases, it seemed that the men wanted to be with someone “safer” who’d appreciate them more.
-Children do best being raised by both parents - one full time - generally mom (nursing etc). Some men & women have set the financial bar way higher than needed. It is still possible for many to have a one-income family if you live more modestly. Kids grow up fast & once they are all in school all day, moms can work part time - but ideally the goal of both parents is to ensure the best raising of their kids - above financial aspirations or marital struggles (besides extremes like abuse - by husband or wife).

[Fiannan]

-Church leaders kiss up to women while being harder on men for several reasons: projection & attempt to throw women a bone considering how men preside etc, partly maybe they sense that women take things to heart more than men, & women tend to have more influence on children (the future of the church) so care is given to not push them away.

This is probably the reason we hear of women divorcing righteous men and being pampered afterwards. True, it is rare for the children to stay committed to the Church when a woman does this (there is only so far cognitive dissonance can be employed by a young mind when they read the scriptures about the sin of divorce) but leaders do attempt to try to be there for the kids.

Also, I think the reason eyebrows go up at church when an age gap exists in a relationship is due to trying to steer clear of early prophets and leaders marrying women 30 or 40 years younger than them. I actually think one reason some people were a bit put off by Trump is that he has a wife who is almost 30 years younger. Odd since early Church leaders would have given him a congratulatory pat on the back and thumbs up, except perhaps wondering why he only made one baby with her.

-The porn “problem” would be less a problem if sexuality was acknowledged as part of being human rather than as a shameful thing that is mostly avoided. About 1/4 of women never orgasm during sex & that might be why sex feels more as a chore to some (& why they stop) especially when sex is viewed by such shameful restrictions.

I think this problem is solving itself to a degree since more and more young women are accessing porn themselves. Problem is, they tend to go to the more weird stuff than men and thus are becoming more aggressive and experimental in relationships.

-I hate to say this but the church is in need of real leadership - someone who sees a vision of where we need to go and leads us there. These sweet men are trying their best with the cards they have - but what can you expect from someone in their last years of life, when they struggle physically and mentally?

True to a degree. When you were born in the 1920s your frame of reference is the jitterbug, looking forward to the brand new Tom and Jerry cartoon at movie intervention and wondering if TV was going to catch on or if it were merely a fad. A lot has changed in the culture since then. Of course this is not to diminish from their role in preserving and promoting the Gospel, but it will affect their perceptions.

[Thinker]

Thanks Fiannan. I appreciate your grounded perspectives.
I agree with a lot, except I don’t see porn as appealing to most women - more like soaps and romance novels etc. Women get turned on emotionally (which is why men need to work on listening & intimate communication!). And I’m not for polygamy. But otherwise, what you’ve expressed makes a lot of sense.

One more factor applies not only to this topic but plays a major role in marriage & divorce. By nature, we women tend to test men but the Mormon tests are much harder & many men are not up for it. Some higher testing is good but some is nit-picky & misses the mark. The ideal is that a man is appropriately tested and does respond by improving, but does not bend so far as to break & allow the woman to control. It’s like birds - where males must build nests and then females come and test the nest (really thrash at it) to see if it’s good enough for chicks. The nest can’t be too weak, but it can’t be too rigid either.

My man, (well his wife’s man ) Jordan Peterson summed this up: “Men test ideas and women test men.” https://youtu.be/rqLtEBVkZpA

[BruceRGilbert]

. . . and so, occasionally we get glimpses into the problem with archetypes and the accumulation of wisdom:

Suggesting, of course, that the way to "perfection" is in the overcoming of "self" and not necessarily the "denial" of "self."

The "Mormon" man, is he an archetype or enigma that doesn't exist? Are the terms, jointly used, an oxymoron? Has the "Mormon" man been masticated by the culture of our time? I would have to conclude that there may be more truth in the "OP" than presupposed.

[Crackers]

This thread has been interesting.
Regarding Noah... https://youtu.be/ATGrbTN63H4

Many good points have been made & I’ve learned a couple things - thanks guys and gals.
This topic is related to other complex topics like marriage, feminism, chauvenism - even Noah’s ark! Ha ha

Some thoughts:
-Men tend to think more logically than women (generally - there’re exceptions like me).
-Internet access makes hiding inconvenient history & facts impossible & attempts to anyway, loses credibility.
-Church leaders kiss up to women while being harder on men for several reasons: projection & attempt to throw women a bone considering how men preside etc, partly maybe they sense that women take things to heart more than men, & women tend to have more influence on children (the future of the church) so care is given to not push them away.

Kiss up?

-The porn “problem” would be less a problem if sexuality was acknowledged as part of being human rather than as a shameful thing that is mostly avoided. About 1/4 of women never orgasm during sex & that might be why sex feels more as a chore to some (& why they stop) especially when sex is viewed by such shameful restrictions.

Have you ever read Elder Holland's short book called Of Souls, Symbols and Sacraments? He describes how sexual relations bring us closer to godhood more than anything else. He eloquently articulates sex's beauty and powers. It is only shameful when used inappropriately or outside of marriage, and that's because it s a misuse of something so inherently powerful. That is what the LDS church teaches, not as powerfully or clearly all the time, but that is clearly its position. Honestly, my entire life has been as an active member, and I have never been taught that, within its proper bounds, sex is shameful or to be avoided.

-I hate to say this but the church is in need of real leadership - someone who sees a vision of where we need to go and leads us there. These sweet men are trying their best with the cards they have - but what can you expect from someone in their last years of life, when they struggle physically and mentally?

I don't think you hated saying that at all. That was very telling.

-Someone mentioned men divorcing and then marrying latina or asian women. I wonder what point they were trying to make. I have seen this & (this is going to sound racist which I’m not but), in those cases, it seemed that the men wanted to be with someone “safer” who’d appreciate them more.
-Children do best being raised by both parents - one full time - generally mom (nursing etc). Some men & women have set the financial bar way higher than needed. It is still possible for many to have a one-income family if you live more modestly. Kids grow up fast & once they are all in school all day, moms can work part time - but ideally the goal of both parents is to ensure the best raising of their kids - above financial aspirations or marital struggles (besides extremes like abuse - by husband or wife).

[sandman45]

The earth was baptised during the flood and completely covered with water and Noah was in the ark for 370days

And God made Adam out of a dirt clod and made Eve out of a stolen bone. Come on, we know that much of the Old Testament is symbolic. Having a "burning of the bossum" does not mean someone has to grab a fire extinnguisher and spray you before you die from burns.

I have heard from current prophets seers and revelators that the flood was literal and did cover this realm called earth

[sandman45]

This thread has been interesting.
Regarding Noah... https://youtu.be/ATGrbTN63H4

Many good points have been made & I’ve learned a couple things - thanks guys and gals.
This topic is related to other complex topics like marriage, feminism, chauvenism - even Noah’s ark! Ha ha

Some thoughts:
-Men tend to think more logically than women (generally - there’re exceptions like me).
-Internet access makes hiding inconvenient history & facts impossible & attempts to anyway, loses credibility.
-Church leaders kiss up to women while being harder on men for several reasons: projection & attempt to throw women a bone considering how men preside etc, partly maybe they sense that women take things to heart more than men, & women tend to have more influence on children (the future of the church) so care is given to not push them away.

Kiss up?

-The porn “problem” would be less a problem if sexuality was acknowledged as part of being human rather than as a shameful thing that is mostly avoided. About 1/4 of women never orgasm during sex & that might be why sex feels more as a chore to some (& why they stop) especially when sex is viewed by such shameful restrictions.

Have you ever read Elder Holland's short book called Of Souls, Symbols and Sacraments? He describes how sexual relations bring us closer to godhood more than anything else. He eloquently articulates sex's beauty and powers. It is only shameful when used inappropriately or outside of marriage, and that's because it s a misuse of something so inherently powerful. That is what the LDS church teaches, not as powerfully or clearly all the time, but that is clearly its position. Honestly, my entire life has been as an active member, and I have never been taught that, within its proper bounds, sex is shameful or to be avoided.

-I hate to say this but the church is in need of real leadership - someone who sees a vision of where we need to go and leads us there. These sweet men are trying their best with the cards they have - but what can you expect from someone in their last years of life, when they struggle physically and mentally?

I don't think you hated saying that at all. That was very telling.

-Someone mentioned men divorcing and then marrying latina or asian women. I wonder what point they were trying to make. I have seen this & (this is going to sound racist which I’m not but), in those cases, it seemed that the men wanted to be with someone “safer” who’d appreciate them more.
-Children do best being raised by both parents - one full time - generally mom (nursing etc). Some men & women have set the financial bar way higher than needed. It is still possible for many to have a one-income family if you live more modestly. Kids grow up fast & once they are all in school all day, moms can work part time - but ideally the goal of both parents is to ensure the best raising of their kids - above financial aspirations or marital struggles (besides extremes like abuse - by husband or wife).

Amen we need real men with beards as prophets. And that will not be Politically Correct and tell it how it is. And to STOP dressing in suits and ties and trying to be like BABYLON and WALLSTREET.

We need them to PROPHESY as prophets, we need them to SEE into the Urim and Thummim as seers, we need them to REVEAL as revelators.

When was the last time we had a seer actually SEE into the Urim and Thummim?! Joseph? It’s about time one of the current brethren do that!!

We need leaders to show people how to talk to God face to face like Moses tried to do with the children of Israel. For Moses wanted all to become prophets and not just rely on him(Moses) to speak in behalf of God.

[brianj]

Thanks Fiannan. I appreciate your grounded perspectives.
I agree with a lot, except I don’t see porn as appealing to most women - more like soaps and romance novels etc. Women get turned on emotionally (which is why men need to work on listening & intimate communication!). And I’m not for polygamy. But otherwise, what you’ve expressed makes a lot of sense.

I try to be faithful to my covenants so I steer clear of pornography, but I wasn't always LDS and am simultaneously blessed and cursed with a very good memory. I also have a lot of friends who are not LDS, many of whom do partake of pornography. One recently told me that modern porn is not made for men and explained why without going into details of the "acting."

In the old days, what I recall, is films shot in sleazy environments with guys who weren't particularly attractive - actors much like the guys watching porn in cheap, dark hotel rooms. The male viewer was able to project himself into the scene. But these days the men are almost always very good looking and impeccably groomed - what women tend to want. The sets are often brightly lit mansions with expensive luxury cars parked out front, business jets, or luxury resorts. The actresses are often wearing very expensive jewelry. My friend's conclusion, after giving a more detailed description, was that your typical man is not going to be able to project himself into this type of environment because he could never afford it, but this is there to appeal to women who want to be the pampered beauty of a rich guy.

Many women have a very emotional craving for what a lot of money can buy. Heck, look at Sex and the City. I recall an interview wherein one of the actresses expressed regret for being a part of that series. She was in a movie theater for a screening, and apparently there's a scene where a guy who wants to marry one of the women gives her a giant walk-in closet. The women in the theater audibly swooned over that scene, equating a ridiculous expenditure with love.

[BeNotDeceived]

I'd be careful about going into this nephilim stuff to. There is a lot of embellishment beyond what the scriptures actually say in regards to them and a lot of it is kind of strange ideas. That's not official doctrine by prophets, seers, and revelators. People keep trying to add to the doctrine by intellectual sources that don't have the spirit of revelation.

This video is very long, but very interesting!

[Fiannan]

People can complain this way or that about women are too materialistic or men are too shell-shocked to get married but the end result will be that only a minority of LDS women will manage to get an LDS (active or not) man and maybe 2/3 will either marry outside the Church, be genetic dead-ends or have to use sperm donors to have kids.

The women who do not reproduce will contribute nothing to the genetic future of the Church.
The women who marry outside the Church (if they are lucky to get a man even then) will quite often have their children not connected to the LDS faith in the long-run.
The women who get sperm donation will at least contribute to the genetic future of the Church but generally such women only make one or perhaps two kids.
The women who do marry in the Church are being pressured by society (often wolves in sheep's clothing inside the Church) to limit their families. Many will conform to worldly ideals but not all. However, the latter will become increasingly rare.

So which will be the first temple decommissioned and sold to Muslims to become a mosque?

[Fiannan]

I also have a lot of friends who are not LDS, many of whom do partake of pornography. One recently told me that modern porn is not made for men and explained why without going into details of the "acting."

It may reflect the trend in many shows being produced for cable nowadays, that being the craving of women audiences for more sex and nudity. Yes, younger women want this, but they also want a story line and women not being exploited or portrayed as weak. As for porn, I had read that after the financial crash of 2007 many upper-class people help to make the ends meet by renting out their homes for porn shoots while mom, dad and the kids go on a vacation. This may explain the reason porn is now shot quite often with luxurious backdrops. I had never considered the idea that this was to lure female viewers but if it is then women are watching movies that further the idea that they are missing out.

[Thinker]

For the record, I am all for boldly stating truths & who cares about political correctness!
When I suggested better leadership, I mean these men who are leaving the church obviously are looking elsewhere for male role models. Why? Maybe some prioritize wordly things, but many are not inspired by what they get from the church - otherwise they’d be hanging around more. Don’t shoot the messenger. This thread and statistics show that men are leaving the church more. Why? If you want to solve a problem you need to know what the problem is.

Personally I love the elderly - many have so much wisdom to share. But It’s pretty clear that as people get really old, their mental and physical abilities become limited and I just think men need more which they’re not getting so they’re leaving. It’s similar idea that I believe both men and women should NOT have children when they really old (usually it’s men) because then they don’t have the energy etc to properly guide them all of the years they need it.

As to what specifically is needed from leadership- I’d say a big start would be correcting cognitive distortions - which would help solve numerous problems, besides being more mentally healthy and godly.

=

Bruce - thanks for the Jordan Peterson clip. It gets to the heart of the spiritual dilemma so many face (especially in our church). It’s the idea mentioned in scripture of not being luke warm & the parable of the talents. Many times I felt the temptation of doing nothing in order to be “safe” from sin. To deeply realize that “in each of us is a bit of all of us” is humbling but also scarey. To realize not just the good but also the evil that we each are capable of is something most want to ignore and pretend such horrible human weaknesses belong exclusively to “those bad guys over there.” Just as courage is not the absense of fear, but is acting in the face of fear... realizing our own potential and THEN consciously choosing the better part, is more godly than closing one eye while looking at & acting on our potential.

Another way of looking at it is through Fowler’s Faith stages. Stage 3 (where most active members probably are) might think stage 4 & 5 people have slipped behind - just because they are no longer “closing the other eye.” And maybe stage 4 & 5 people get tired of being called names like “apostate” or “sinner” just for opening their other eye (so to speak) & when nobody lives God’s will perfectly.
http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

[BruceRGilbert]

"Revolving Door" Disillusionment.

It is one thing to identify or "recognize" a problem and quite another to understand "why." The "grand exodus" from the Church "may be" related to the "sifting" that was foretold or something quite different. With the advent of "ready access to information," it is apparent that "the weaknesses of the flesh" and "continuity" of a "charted course" has fallen prey to "irregularities." Such things have a tendency to cause "cognitive dissonance" and "re-examination." We live during a time when "history" is being re-interpreted, revised, and sometimes denied. In all of the "re-examination," the "baby," sometimes get thrown out with the wash," instead of fostering increased faith in "personal revelation." Too, the issue is further complicated when the "life blood" of "continuing revelation" is replaced with "inspiration" in the form of "review;" administration versus ministry. Edification is possible on "milk," but "protein" is had from "meat." The "Heavens" need not be closed.

[BruceRGilbert]

For the record, I am all for boldly stating truths & who cares about political correctness!
When I suggested better leadership, I mean these men who are leaving the church obviously are looking elsewhere for male role models. Why? Maybe some prioritize wordly things, but many are not inspired by what they get from the church - otherwise they’d be hanging around more. Don’t shoot the messenger. This thread and statistics show that men are leaving the church more. Why? If you want to solve a problem you need to know what the problem is.

As to what specifically is needed from leadership- I’d say a big start would be correcting cognitive distortions - which would help solve numerous problems, besides being more mentally healthy and godly.

=

Bruce - thanks for the Jordan Peterson clip. It gets to the heart of the spiritual dilemma so many face (especially in our church). It’s the idea mentioned in scripture of not being luke warm & the parable of the talents. Many times I felt the temptation of doing nothing in order to be “safe” from sin. To deeply realize that “in each of us is a bit of all of us” is humbling but also scarey. To realize not just the good but also the evil that we each are capable of is something most want to ignore and pretend such horrible human weaknesses belong exclusively to “those bad guys over there.” Just as courage is not the absense of fear, but is acting in the face of fear... realizing our own potential and THEN consciously choosing the better part, is more godly than closing one eye while looking at & acting on our potential.

Again, I am grateful. The exchange reminds me of Zenos' analogy of the olive tree that was used as a segue for Jacob's exposition and expansion into the allegory of the Vineyard. It is the utilization of information from another and building, therewith. I am reminded by Einstien's statement of being able to see further because of standing on the backs of giants. From sure foundations spring great edifices and in our "relative" instances, "mansions."

“If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.”
( History of the Church, 6:303. )

The greatest of all sight is that which looks within, it is called "in-sight." Thank you, Thinker - "in each of us is a bit of all of us" . . . it is called "Godliness."