The “shortage of Mormon men”

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DEEPER storm
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The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by DEEPER storm »

You note that Mormonism has the worst sex imbalance ratio of any church except the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And this is especially true in Utah as compared to the rest of the nation. Why?

Research suggests that the increasingly imbalanced sex ratio among Utah Mormons is like the canary in the proverbial coal mine: this is a sign of something bigger, that Utah Mormons are actually becoming less religious. You attribute the gender gap to a growing trend of apostasy among Mormon men. Can you explain?

gardener4life
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by gardener4life »

I've been worried about this. I have seen a lot of people leave the truth church. All the young men I went to church with when I was a boy aren't even in the church. But what's crazy is how could they do that?! I KNOW for a fact that they felt the spirit. There were groups of us that went on scout groups and mutual things with the very best leaders we could have been given. They'd talk to us very non-threateningly about getting to our future and staying in the gospel and identified the Spirit. It was amazing.

And then a few years ago I heard one of them became a queer. And I almost couldn't believe it, because I'd remembered all the church activities where I knew we felt the spirit. Rejection of truth is the way the Nephite nation destroyed itself and the Jaredites. We don't want to go there.

I wish people could be accepting of other members too, especially those with disabilities, and those that don't have wealth of the world. I think this is contributing to it. As a country we're teaching each other to only accept people in the great and spacious building instead of holding onto faith.

brianj
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by brianj »

DEEPER storm wrote: October 14th, 2017, 4:50 pm You note that Mormonism has the worst sex imbalance ratio of any church except the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And this is especially true in Utah as compared to the rest of the nation. Why?

Research suggests that the increasingly imbalanced sex ratio among Utah Mormons is like the canary in the proverbial coal mine: this is a sign of something bigger, that Utah Mormons are actually becoming less religious. You attribute the gender gap to a growing trend of apostasy among Mormon men. Can you explain?
Who is the "you" that you refer to, Deeper storm?

Z2100
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Z2100 »

gardener4life wrote: October 14th, 2017, 5:07 pm I've been worried about this. I have seen a lot of people leave the truth church. All the young men I went to church with when I was a boy aren't even in the church. But what's crazy is how could they do that?! I KNOW for a fact that they felt the spirit. There were groups of us that went on scout groups and mutual things with the very best leaders we could have been given. They'd talk to us very non-threateningly about getting to our future and staying in the gospel and identified the Spirit. It was amazing.

And then a few years ago I heard one of them became a queer. And I almost couldn't believe it, because I'd remembered all the church activities where I knew we felt the spirit. Rejection of truth is the way the Nephite nation destroyed itself and the Jaredites. We don't want to go there.

I wish people could be accepting of other members too, especially those with disabilities, and those that don't have wealth of the world. I think this is contributing to it. As a country we're teaching each other to only accept people in the great and spacious building instead of holding onto faith.
Millions of people in the Americas are going to die in the future.

eddie
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by eddie »

DEEPER storm wrote: October 14th, 2017, 4:50 pm You note that Mormonism has the worst sex imbalance ratio of any church except the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And this is especially true in Utah as compared to the rest of the nation. Why?

Research suggests that the increasingly imbalanced sex ratio among Utah Mormons is like the canary in the proverbial coal mine: this is a sign of something bigger, that Utah Mormons are actually becoming less religious. You attribute the gender gap to a growing trend of apostasy among Mormon men. Can you explain?
Please document where you get your information.

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captainfearnot
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

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Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:14 pm Millions of people in the Americas are going to die in the future.
Everyone is going to die in the future.

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captainfearnot
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by captainfearnot »

eddie wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:27 pm Please document where you get your information.

I don't know what sources OP had in mind, but the trend he mentions is well documented.

http://universe.byu.edu/2015/10/20/rati ... than-men1/
http://time.com/dateonomics/
http://www.ldsliving.com/Gender-gap-wid ... y-/s/67001
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormonisms ... 1484345864
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/mor ... r-gap.html
Last edited by captainfearnot on October 16th, 2017, 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Z2100
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Z2100 »

captainfearnot wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:42 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:14 pm Millions of people in the Americas are going to die in the future.
Everyone is going to die in the future.
I'm talking about the cleansing

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Alaris
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Alaris »

Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:58 pm
captainfearnot wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:42 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:14 pm Millions of people in the Americas are going to die in the future.
Everyone is going to die in the future.
I'm talking about the cleansing
The righteous will always be protected, so considering there are more active mormon women to men, then perhaps this scripture will be relevant in the not-too-distant future.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

gardener4life
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by gardener4life »

eddie wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:27 pm
DEEPER storm wrote: October 14th, 2017, 4:50 pm You note that Mormonism has the worst sex imbalance ratio of any church except the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And this is especially true in Utah as compared to the rest of the nation. Why?

Research suggests that the increasingly imbalanced sex ratio among Utah Mormons is like the canary in the proverbial coal mine: this is a sign of something bigger, that Utah Mormons are actually becoming less religious. You attribute the gender gap to a growing trend of apostasy among Mormon men. Can you explain?
Please document where you get your information.
This would be an interesting discussion question. I've heard sisters are generally more faithful than brothers too. But I actually haven't seen any statistics on paper on it. Rather than a prove it discussion it would be interesting to go over. One thing I can say on the matter is that I've talked to other teachers in normal schools, not church; and I remarked to one of them one time I thought it was odd that the girls in the class are always higher numbers in the class than the boys who want to be good. There are still boys that want to be good. I don't want anyone to think there isn't. At any rate this other teacher said back to me in response that part of it is because women spend time with each other and mentor their younger friends and daughters more than the men spend time with their sons.

Well I'm interested in other thoughts that others will say on the matter.

gardener4life
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by gardener4life »

alaris wrote: October 14th, 2017, 9:22 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:58 pm
captainfearnot wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:42 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:14 pm Millions of people in the Americas are going to die in the future.
Everyone is going to die in the future.
I'm talking about the cleansing
The righteous will always be protected, so considering there are more active mormon women to men, then perhaps this scripture will be relevant in the not-too-distant future.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
I wanted to say thanks for this comment.
I actually haven't felt any inspiration on the part about seven women taking hold of one man. I sure hope it's not meaning child support though XD or credit cards XD

Seriously what I did want to reiterate though is that the scriptures are all over the place talking about qualifying for protection of the Lord. We could do more to remember this and also HOW it works.

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Alaris
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Alaris »

gardener4life wrote: October 14th, 2017, 9:25 pm
alaris wrote: October 14th, 2017, 9:22 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:58 pm
captainfearnot wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:42 pm

Everyone is going to die in the future.
I'm talking about the cleansing
The righteous will always be protected, so considering there are more active mormon women to men, then perhaps this scripture will be relevant in the not-too-distant future.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
I wanted to say thanks for this comment.
I actually haven't felt any inspiration on the part about seven women taking hold of one man. I sure hope it's not meaning child support though XD or credit cards XD

Seriously what I did want to reiterate though is that the scriptures are all over the place talking about qualifying for protection of the Lord. We could do more to remember this and also HOW it works.
LOL :D :D :D

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

Males are given a warrior spirit. Now keep that in mind.

Christianity in general is losing its male members. Of course Christianity was castrated long ago but just as you geld a male of any species it takes a while for the residual testosterone to wear off.

So take a look at what is taking place in the general society, boys are being drugged for so-called "ADHD" while also told by parents (often divorced or single moms) and female grade school teachers that their natural instincts are wrong. As they grow up the society holds up "men" who behave more like women, and I am not talking Tom boy women. The only place men can escape into something more male is pornography and gaming -- which many are doing.

In the past two decades the talks in Church are less intellectually stimulating as we need to make sure the less-intelligent or spiritual can follow them. Males find nothing to challenge their minds. Conference talks are little more than meme-generator moments. Yes, they are spiritual, yes they are truth, but there is little to challenge higher-order cognitive skills. They are emotion-based.

So back to the point, males are warriors. Yet even in our religion if a man tries to exercise strength in the family he will likely get reproved for having "unrighteosu dominion" by some unhappy mother-in-law.

Thoughts?

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Alaris
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Alaris »

Fiannan wrote: October 14th, 2017, 9:56 pm Males are given a warrior spirit. Now keep that in mind.

Christianity in general is losing its male members. Of course Christianity was castrated long ago but just as you geld a male of any species it takes a while for the residual testosterone to wear off.

So take a look at what is taking place in the general society, boys are being drugged for so-called "ADHD" while also told by parents (often divorced or single moms) and female grade school teachers that their natural instincts are wrong. As they grow up the society holds up "men" who behave more like women, and I am not talking Tom boy women. The only place men can escape into something more male is pornography and gaming -- which many are doing.

In the past two decades the talks in Church are less intellectually stimulating as we need to make sure the less-intelligent or spiritual can follow them. Males find nothing to challenge their minds. Conference talks are little more than meme-generator moment. Yes, they are spiritual, yes they are truth, but there is little to challenge higher-order cognitive skills. They are emotion-based.

So back to the point, males are warriors. Yet even in our religion if a man tries to exercise strength in the family he will likely get reproved for having "unrighteosu dominion" by some unhappy mother-in-law.

Thoughts?
I will certainly vouch for the challenge Mormon men face in trying to lead a house in righteousness against the unrelenting assault of the devil to diminish the man's role as head of the house.

Can we even say the words, "head of the house" without some degree of Pavlovian societal cringe?

Joining that effort of opposition against man's divine role to any degree has the effect of making the other lures of the adversary even more...alluring

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

Can we even say the words, "head of the house" without some degree of Pavlovian societal cringe?
Wow, I would bet if you used those words in today's Sunday school class you will trigger more than a few women who will look at their poodle husbands and ask, "You don't agree with that, do you?"

Spaced_Out
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Spaced_Out »

I have briefly addressed this topic anther thread. 'It is in bits a pieces all over the thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46647&p=814607#p814607

A few thoughts on some of the issues:
Employment: The strong focus on marriage by the sisters, but male salaries are insufficient to cover marriage with high cost of housing, so they loose interest and drift away as they see marriage as unattainable.
Millennials Are Delaying Marriage Because Men Aren't Earning Enough
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-1 ... ing-enough
Righteousness, pornography is a serous problem -- our previous Bishop used to tell me they are all looking at porn, since I was previously in that position a few times and was the ward clerk. We used to chat generally about issues never individuals.

General focus on Marriage. Yes the sisters are more focused on marriage, due to feminism and other legal issues, lack of faith in the future. Males shy away. The sisters think that if they only can get married then they will be happy and all the problems will be over - males run and cower in fear at the very thought.

Timing. It uses to be be temple, mission, marriage, children education, church callings. I am a convert while still in youth and the only member of my family to join the church. Pre Kimball was the prophet at the time and every conference it was get married your first priority, worry about education etc later. The mind 1980" is when the male falling away started, so the PH leadership started by trying to progress people to keep them active. We do the same with investigators, baptism, Temple, family history, callings, keep goals in front of them and keep them progressing.
Today it is too hard to expedite the progression of YSA and they fall away. Only one or two of the YM that were my age group when I joined the church are still active.

Just about every ward I have attended there are more high priests than active elder quorum members, we are becoming an older church. Many

Spaced_Out
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Spaced_Out »

I have briefly addressed this topic anther thread. 'It is in bits a pieces all over the thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46647&p=814607#p814607

A few thoughts on some of the issues:
Employment: The strong focus on marriage by the sisters, but male salaries are insufficient to cover marriage with high cost of housing, so they loose interest and drift away as they see marriage as unattainable.
Millennials Are Delaying Marriage Because Men Aren't Earning Enough
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-1 ... ing-enough
Righteousness, pornography is a serous problem -- our previous Bishop used to tell me they are all looking at porn, since I was previously in that position a few times and was the ward clerk. We used to chat generally about issues never individuals.

General focus on Marriage. Yes the sisters are more focused on marriage, due to feminism and other legal issues, lack of faith in the future. Males shy away. The sisters think that if they only can get married then they will be happy and all the problems will be over - males run and cower in fear at the very thought.

Timing. It uses to be be temple, mission, marriage, children education, church callings. I am a convert while still in youth and the only member of my family to join the church. Pre Kimball was the prophet at the time and every conference it was get married your first priority, worry about education etc later. The mind 1980" is when the male falling away started, so the PH leadership started by trying to progress people to keep them active. We do the same with investigators, baptism, Temple, family history, callings, keep goals in front of them and keep them progressing.
Today it is too hard to expedite the progression of YSA and they fall away. Only one or two of the YM that were my age group when I joined the church are still active.

Just about every ward I have attended there are more high priests than active elder quorum members, we are becoming an older church. Many

Z2100
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Z2100 »

alaris wrote: October 14th, 2017, 9:22 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:58 pm
captainfearnot wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:42 pm
Z2100 wrote: October 14th, 2017, 8:14 pm Millions of people in the Americas are going to die in the future.
Everyone is going to die in the future.
I'm talking about the cleansing
The righteous will always be protected, so considering there are more active mormon women to men, then perhaps this scripture will be relevant in the not-too-distant future.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Are you implying that polygamy will be practiced again?

Gage
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Gage »

It always amazes me that people today are amazed that the Church is "dwindling" in unbelief. What do the scripture say? I am not sold on this premise that "men are leaving and the sisters are "holding on" and remaining righteous to the end. I know plenty of Sisters who's husbands stay in bed on Sunday mornings but she and her kids are always there on Sunday mornings. Some of the Sisters do not believe half of what they read or are taught or what the Prophet says, (they just about all do not believe the church's stance on gays I can just about guarantee that) they just do not want to be shun outside of church, dont want their kids shun, they love the sense of community, they love their friends in the church so they continue to "show up". I just dont think all of this is as important to men, or shall I say some men, that leave the church.

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

they just about all do not believe the church's stance on gays I can just about guarantee that
Nor the Church stance on pornography...except the ones who can use their husband's history file to gain sympathy when they are unhappy with the marriage.

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harakim
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by harakim »

Gage wrote: October 15th, 2017, 11:01 am It always amazes me that people today are amazed that the Church is "dwindling" in unbelief. What do the scripture say? I am not sold on this premise that "men are leaving and the sisters are "holding on" and remaining righteous to the end. I know plenty of Sisters who's husbands stay in bed on Sunday mornings but she and her kids are always there on Sunday mornings. Some of the Sisters do not believe half of what they read or are taught or what the Prophet says, (they just about all do not believe the church's stance on gays I can just about guarantee that) they just do not want to be shun outside of church, dont want their kids shun, they love the sense of community, they love their friends in the church so they continue to "show up". I just dont think all of this is as important to men, or shall I say some men, that leave the church.
I think this is at least somewhat accurate. Women are more likely to follow and men are more likely to try and find their own path. Whoever wrote about the ADHD and teachers hit the nail on the head.

brianj
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by brianj »

alaris wrote: October 14th, 2017, 9:22 pm The righteous will always be protected, so considering there are more active mormon women to men, then perhaps this scripture will be relevant in the not-too-distant future.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
There's a footnote on the word reproach in the LDS publication of the Bible: IE the stigma of being unmarried and childless.

I get the impression that there will be a shortage of men, perhaps due to the wars that are prophesied to come. But we also see an increasing number of women who have no interest in ever having a husband or children. I tend to believe Isaiah is referring to a time in the future when the population has been humbled enough for people to accept the gospel and these women come to recognize that they have been very wrong by not having a husband and children. These women will then come to a smaller number of men wanting to have a husband and children, but afraid to become a burden to the men they approach.

JohnnyL
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by JohnnyL »

There are a few men I would have in HP quorum, and a few I wish would go back to EQ, lol. In other words, priesthood meetings could be much, much better. That's probably why a lot of men stop coming.

Lots of men are NOT looking at porn. Besides, I consider it an effect, not a cause.

I know lots of guys who are ahead of their wives, in lots of ways.

Scouts instead of YW was a big problem.

Not talking with guys is a problem.

Being nice to girls and mean to guys doesn't seem to have helped. Threads here, comments on LDS magazine sites, comments on dating sites all point to similar things: men are treated by society (and women) like crap and raked over the coals over small matters, women are put on a pedestal and kid-gloved. Even in the church.

Vaccines is a problem (ADHD, autism, much more)--and since testosterone is involved in assimilation of toxins, it affects more boys than girls.

You used to be able to go to school, get a good job based on schooling and ability to work, get a good pay, buy a house, raise a family of four in comfort. Good luck now. Lots of things have changed that make that extremely difficult for most. I can get a house twice as nice + 40 acres in Missouri/ Alabama/ Arkansas/ etc. compared to what I can get in near the corridor in Utah.

I can get a higher-paying job in most other places.

I got a job once, then it got pulled because the boss was basically anti-male (one other guy in the company--his wife already worked there). It's not uncommon with women. I used to do fine with divorced women, but now the male hate seems to be more common in single women.

Dropping a few words like "Instagram" in a talk is not enough to show people you understand. There seems to be too much "I wonder" and "It seems" in too many of those talks. If this is such an important matter, what is being done about it??

We could go on and on.

brianj
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by brianj »

Fiannan wrote: October 14th, 2017, 10:06 pm
Can we even say the words, "head of the house" without some degree of Pavlovian societal cringe?
Wow, I would bet if you used those words in today's Sunday school class you will trigger more than a few women who will look at their poodle husbands and ask, "You don't agree with that, do you?"
I was once in a Sunday School class where a man said something about presiding in the home and his wife responded by arguing with him! The world has been moving toward the destruction of the family, with contempt for proper roles being a major factor. Many women in the church treat their husbands with contempt and refuse to show respect or even consider his counsel.

Sadly, women know how to lie and have become expert at doing so. They will play the role of the ideal Mormon wife during courtship and into the beginning of the marriage, but once they get settled they start showing that they have no intention of submitting to or respecting their husbands.

I've even seen it on this board. Paraphrasing a post in a previous thread: "Physical intimacy is a very special thing so, even though it may be the most important thing a woman can do to show love to her husband, he should be thankful to have her show love in the way she feels like showing love instead of the way he needs love expressed. And if he ever withholds love just because his wife is consistently withholding her love, then he's showing that his love is conditional."

Tree
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Tree »

As I have told my friends & family-- this whole Mormon culture is messed but not the principles of the Gospel.

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