The “shortage of Mormon men”

[JohnnyL]

There isn't a shortage of Mormon men, there does seem to be a shortage of righteous, committed LDS men who want to marry righteous committed LDS women.

We know that there is a large percentage of returned missionaries who go inactive after their missions. One has to wonder why? There are lots of reasons; They get caught up in worldly interests, some get involved with pornography and this keeps them from having an interest in a real woman or hurts their ability to relate to real women; Others fall back into their old high school ways and don't really want to move into adulthood, taking on a wife, children and looking forward to a future of working to make a living to support them. They don't put the time or effort into seeking out a wife, but instead, keep relationships superficial. Some LDS men's standards of attitude/behavior are lax; they aren't truly committed to living righteous, clean lives of service and devotion and will drag down their family to their telestial level and resent their wife/girlfriend's attempts to get them to live on a terrestrial or celestial level.

I agree with much of the second paragraph. Still, those RM's that leave? They aren't all male. I've known female RM's to do the same. All those reasons fit both sides. But yes, I've sat by EQ president at BYU when he disagreed, in more than a whisper, very much so with the bishop's chastity talk. I've heard guys say, "I can't go out with that girl--she made out with me. I need someone better than that."

Oftentimes, I think that they are hampered by the candy store dilemna. With the internet making the world so small, they see how many different choices they have in marriageable women and so they can't decide. They don't want to settle with one and so, put it off with endless dating or 'hanging out'.

Yes! This was part of my problem, too. But a talk on "hanging out" (wait, now it's multiple talks) will not really do much, while I think a spiritual talk on understanding and overcoming "candy store" WOULD.

A serious problem is making poor dating/marriage choices: Many make poor choices, choosing their dates/mates because of superficial things--it's surprising how many men will blindly saddle themselves with a pretty, young, immature high maintenance girl--because they were attracted to her and wanted a wife that would make their friends envious. Then, she turns out to be shallow and selfish, unprepared for the sacrifices needed to make a relationship work, making them and their mate miserable and regardless of whether the marriage survives or not--the man becomes bitter, resentful and makes the mistake of judging all women to be like their wife/exgirlfriend. Then, it's no wonder the men then can't find anyone interested in them--they have such a misogynistic attitude that comes across to women they come in contact with-- so, why would any sane woman want to take that on?

Those pretty, young, immature high maintenance girls--they're all "righteous, committed" LDS! (And I totally agree with what you wrote here, too. It happens all the time.)

IMO, it's more attractive to remain single than have to settle for marrying a man who's problems prevent him from being a good husband and father and will make your life miserable.

I agree, it would be.

Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here. Telling men that they will find a great wife as long as they are righteous, work hard, go to church, stay temple worthy, and treat all women with respect is about as nonsensical as telling a woman all she has to do is marry an RM and celestial happiness is guaranteed. It takes both sides.

Agree. And both sides need to hear and understand the truth.

If there's one aspect of church culture that rubs me wrong it's the deification of all women and the constant "Stop playing video games and thinking naughty thoughts" attacks we get as men, even if we do neither. Men aren't the only imperfect beings God created. However, we seem to be the only ones whose flaws can be fairly targeted. The following meme sums it up pretty well:
womensconference.jpg
What if men were congratulated for staying worthy, for preparing to be responsible providers, for seeking virtuous women? What if our efforts at staying true to the gospel were praised as frequently as they are in Relief Society or Women's Conference? If you ever listen to Priesthood session and compare it to Women's Conference, in one you get a stern fatherly talking to while in the other it's all "You sisters are just awesome. It's just a shame all you celestial ladies have to put up with telestial husbands." Jesus wasn't deferential to one gender or the other - he called out imperfections when needed and praised when needed. I don't see the equality these days.

I already had an abusive dad, I don't need to go to GC priesthood meetings and get it all over again...

There are plenty of good single Mormon men. I would put it to you that there are plenty out there who are single by no fault of their own. Satan isn't just attacking the men of the church. Just last night my wife was sitting with her extended family talking about how we both work to strengthen each others' weaknesses, neither of us being perfect. I think that is how it ought to be. I'm not perfect, she's not perfect, but we're both doing our best. Blame and keeping score only keep us apart.

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.

Iwritestuff, I'm sorry you disagree with me, I suspect you didn't read the 2 pages of posts which came before mine or you might understand where I was coming from. WherecanIturnforpeace obviously read the posts. She saw the ugly sweeping condemnation of women that was the consensus of the posters. There is a subset of men on this forum who apparently have been so ill-treated by the women in their lives, that they see no value in them and blame them for all the problems in their lives. The consensus among this subset is that women are; Selfish, money grubbing, evil, immoral, cruel. What's most frightening is that they seem to reserve their most strongest contempt for LDS women.

I actually hope our church leaders will stop saying nice things about the women in the church since it seems to be backfiring. Instead of helping them to realize the importance of showing charity and love for their wives, daughters and mothers, it seems to make some men even more resentful and angry.

What would any sane person expect, really? When you yell at your son and everything that comes out of your mouth to him is negative and you just talk about his problems; then, praise your daughter and care so much for her and adore her, when in fact they're pretty equal--do ya think?

As a woman in the church, I certainly don't feel that I'm diefied.

I know women that are mad at their husbands because their husbands DON'T deify them, lol.

I hear the conference talks that counsel us to do better, to live more righteous lives, to serve more, to love more to treat others with kindness and selflessness--I hear those talks as counsel for ME, not for others only and not just for the men. I don't understand this vile contempt and ugliness that is regularly heaped on women--especially LDS women, when these types of threads come up on the forum.

It's the one-sidedness. It's: When you yell at your son and everything that comes out of your mouth to him is negative and you just talk about his problems; then, praise your daughter and care so much for her and adore her, when in fact they're pretty equal--from our church leaders. It's the continual one-sidedness in the culture. It's like the comment you first wrote.

It's about HAVING A VOICE.

Because it's been going on for way too long, too much, and men--being who they are--generally won't say a thing about it, so it just keeps getting worse.

...

I gave my thoughts on the topic of the 'shortage of mormon men' and as a mother of two older marriageable age LDS girls, I am familiar with some reasons why my daughters haven't found eternal companions yet.

Having hung out (and not just going over to eat and goof off a moment, but like take them shopping, walk home with them, etc.) with and dated hundreds of young (and older) women, I have plenty of thoughts to share, too. I don't make up the negative things I write about women, and sometimes, I tone them down and leave things out. In my last ward, lots of guys came to church without their member wives. My ward now is high in divorces, and most are men who got taken for a loop in more than one way.

I have no doubt there are decent young men out there for my daughters; heck, we have some in our ward. Well, we've had some in every ward I've ever been in, frankly.

NOW--what all that does, is not give me a completely bitter view on women, but it does give me a much more truthful view. Because of that, when I see what is promulgated in the church, it doesn't make me happy.

They are looking for men who are committed to living the gospel all the time, not just on Sundays or when it's convenient. They want men who honor their priesthood and live morally clean lives. They want men who want to have children and want to be a leader in their home--righteously lead the family as moral priesthood holders. They want men who will love and cherish them and be monogamously faithful to them--both physically and virtually. They want men who will be good providers (not rich--this often means a man is too caught up in the world) and be good, loving fathers. They want husbands who value the role a mother plays in raising and nurturing a family. They want husbands who will honor them and treat them as equals and truly enjoy spending time with them. This may seem like too high of standards to hope for, but when you are looking for a man to be the father of your children, you need to find the very best. A man who will be a lazy father, who will not care for his family, or is selfish or has bad habits or is not committed to righteous living, can do horrible damage to his children and their own prospects for happy productive lives and strong moral foundations.

And men are looking for the equal on the other side.

If this is too much to ask of LDS men, then I guess we're going to have a lot of righteous single women in the church, because I don't think they are going to lower their standards of what makes a virtuous man and why should they? Why should they marry a man who doesn't love the Lord as much as they do, who doesn't want to live the gospel on the spiritual level that they do? And if there are a lot of good single men, as you suggest, who want the same thing, then it shouldn't be a problem--there should be plenty of devout LDS to pare up with eachother.

And if this is too much to ask of LDS women, then I guess we're going to have a lot of righteous single men in the church...

[Fiannan]

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.

[Gage]

Did you just blame a man for his wife's actions? Did I read this correctly? Men look for superficial things in a woman? So women are going around looking for the fat, ugly, poor guy? As young men in the church it was drilled into us that as long as we stay faithful, pay our tithing, honor our Priesthood, God would send us a beautiful, sexy, loyal wife. This is a load. Women are looking for the hot Alpha guy with the big house, and nice cars, the guy that has plenty of money to give her, if he is a faithful Priesthood holder- well ok that cant hurt anything. So what these Bishops should have been telling us was hey a few of you are gona grow up to be good looking rich men, you will have the beautiful sexy women falling at your feet, dont worry so much about how faithful you are, because you dont have to. For you other average and below average looking guys with temple recommends, good luck nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Okay, in fairness we need to look at the differences between males and females to explain some of the traits that have, sadly, been manipulated by society so that they no longer function as they were meant to.

Women are given only a short period of their lives to reproduce; let’s say 15 years to 40. That means if a woman lives to be 80 then only less than 1/3 of her time on earth she was capable of bringing forth offspring. If she fails to reproduce then, at least as far as biology is concerned, she is a failure and her DNA will cease to exist upon her death.

During that short period of life, if blessed with pregnancy, she will be severely hampered in her ability to get food and provide for her other needs. And after the birth she is also going to have to place a great deal of attention in her child. Therefore she will seek a male that is capable of providing for her and assisting her in rearing her children. She must choose wisely as she only makes an egg a month and once impregnated she will no longer be available for reproduction for about two years. So it appears women will desire a male who is superior in one of three areas:

1) Physical strength. Such a man can protect her and he is capable of securing resources.
2) Intellectual strength (cleverness). Such a man can use cunning to advance his interests and thus hers.
3) Wealth. Regardless of looks, strength or intelligence (or a temple recommend) if a man possesses wealth then it gives her and her children safety and security.

Now as for how these can be manipulated we live in a consumeristic society that must sell people on the idea that the grass is greener around the corner. Women’s magazines promote materialism, fashion, achieving the best orgasm and losing weight. That pretty much sums up their message. The rest of the media also promote the idea that a woman must have a husband that looks great and makes lots of money so she can indulge her fantasies. At the same time they are told to hold off on reproducing and that they should date often (in other words have sex with many types of men and women) and “see the world.” Career is vital and maternal feelings can be projected onto a cute cat or dog. This is the propaganda that hits all women today and then when you mix that with their natural instincts you get a product that may not be so pleasant to live with.

Of course those women who stay close to the Gospel and strive to discern between good and evil are more immune to this than those who think that the world is a fun place. Yes, many good LDS women exist who don’t fall for Satanic lies (be they on TV or in Relief Society) and desire to make families that our Heavenly Father would be proud of.

yep I can agree with all that.

[Sarah]

We're told regularly about the deficiencies of men, and we're told to man up and grow a pair. Men are rude and crude and have dirty minds, and are disgusting, creepy, women have to "settle" for a man, etc.

If you point out deficiencies of women, you are dismissed as a woman hater.

On our local news the other day they showed a conference against domestic violence. I noted that pretty much everyone there was female, and they shared stories of women being beaten by husbands. Fair enough, there are many bad guys out there.

But I wondered when the following was ever going to be shown on the news.

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc ... ner-abuse/

SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.

There's a reason this "headline" or "summary" was never reported. Here's the actual survey data. https://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/ ... 2010-a.pdf

It's kind of hard to find all the the points mentioned in that summary. I finally did find them but it wasn't easy. If there is any headline that should come out of this survey, it is that 1 in 5 women have been raped and 1 in 71 men have. It also might help to explain what is meant by "psychological aggression" and "control over sexual or reproductive health:"

Psychological aggression
includes expressive aggression (such as name calling,
insulting or humiliating an intimate partner) and coercive control, which includes
behaviors that are intended to monitor and control or threaten an intimate partner.
•
Control of reproductive or sexual health
includes the refusal by an intimate partner
to use a condom. For a woman, it also includes times when a partner tried to get her
pregnant when she did not want to become pregnant. For a man, it also includes times
when a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to become pregnant.

I'm not trying dismiss your grievances. No one should feel they need to tolerate receiving violence, aggression, or manipulation. But is seems obvious to me that whoever wrote that "summary" had an agenda of stirring up feelings of male-victumhood. The bottom line is that no one wants to feel controlled. Everyone wants their freedom. That is why people need boundaries on their behavior if they are feeling controlled, used or manipulated. If you have a demanding wife, lovingly explain why you cannot give. If you have a demanding husband, do the same. If someone is not giving to you what you want, putting pressure on that person to give to you more time, money or sex is never going to work. You will come across as controlling. The only thing you can do is work and sacrifice to please God - which means having children and raising a righteous family - and respond to your spouse's withholding with love and persuasion.

[JohnnyL]

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.

Exactly!!

Either that, or the wives silently put up with abuse/ mistreatment.

[PressingForward]

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.

Totally disagree with the “rightousness = prosperous” doctrine. But boy it does exist in our church. Saw a 3year convert to the church become a High Councilman a few years back. Many people were surprised. I wasn’t, he fit the profile of the Local church leaders, Doctors, Lawyers and local Business Owners, of which he was the latter.

[Serragon]

Yep. And you can believe the ones that have husbands that leave gain all the sympathy from the members and some eat it up. A one time Bishop in my ward found out some things about the Church he didnt agree with so he denounced his membership, left the Church. Ok, the wife before all this is already not happy with the marriage, this I knew, because I was good friends with their son. She rode the sympathy card like a champ, woe is me my husband left the church he has destroyed our marriage. Turns out she had been cheating on him with the same man before and after he left the Church, imagine that.

She was cheating on him, but she's the victim. She sounds like she has a lot in common with my not-yet-ex.

Mine publicly announced her engagement on Facebook four months before our first court date (which was postponed), she has made multiple statements to government officials about living with her fiance, she lives in a two bedroom apartment where our son has his own room, and has twice told a Bishop that she's not living with anybody else. And, apparently, she's telling everybody who will give her sympathy about what an abusive person I am. The really pathetic part: the stories of abuse that she tells describe how she treated me.

There are plenty of good and faithful sisters out there.

But it is a large problem in the church that our expectations for men are much higher than they are for women. We often give voice in talks to the idea that women are more naturally virtuous and faithful than men. This is absolutely false. I would suggest that it says more about how we measure faith than the faith itself.

When I was an Elders Quorum president, one of the members of the quorum went through a divorce. She left him and the kids because, in her words, he was not being faithful to his temple covenants. These "covenants" consisted of him making enough money to keep her happy. She left and within a few months and was dating a doctor in another ward and was married in just over a year. She devastated this mans life, took his kids, and received no negative consequence from the church at all. On the contrary, she was treated as a victim in her new ward.

I think another reason that many men are leaving the church is because the church has become very feminine and centralized, much like society at large. It no longer offers them anything of value. Compare what priesthood service meant in previous generations to now. I look at what my grandfathers did compared to what we do today and am left saddened. The focus of the church has changed from spreading the word of God, service, and building zion communities to "families", where the father is simply a second mother. Your church experience is planned by committees in Salt Lake instead of the members of the local ward. Quorum meeting is just another sunday school class. The word quorum has no significance at all anymore.

Men do not thrive in an environment where they have a title of leader but are really a manager. Where very little that is masculine is expected of them, but much that is feminine is. Where they are told repeatedly to quell that natural man where the same is not often emphasized with the sisters. Where men cannot be left alone with a woman or a child for fear they will attack them sexually. Where homosexuality is being treated as a normal male trait. Where men are often judged based on their career choice and wealth instead of their devotion to Christ.

I know many men who maintain a testimony of the restored Gospel but do not attend church. They just don't see the point anymore.

[Fiannan]

I think another reason that many men are leaving the church is because the church has become very feminine and centralized, much like society at large. It no longer offers them anything of value. Compare what priesthood service meant in previous generations to now. I look at what my grandfathers did compared to what we do today and am left saddened. The focus of the church has changed from spreading the word of God, service, and building zion communities to "families", where the father is simply a second mother. Your church experience is planned by committees in Salt Lake instead of the members of the local ward. Quorum meeting is just another sunday school class. The word quorum has no significance at all anymore.

Men do not thrive in an environment where they have a title of leader but are really a manager. Where very little that is masculine is expected of them, but much that is feminine is. Where they are told repeatedly to quell that natural man where the same is not often emphasized with the sisters. Where men cannot be left alone with a woman or a child for fear they will attack them sexually. Where homosexuality is being treated as a normal male trait. Where men are often judged based on their career choice and wealth instead of their devotion to Christ.

What he said.

[DEEPER storm]

Single/divorced, & widowed, A Question:


What are your biggest Red Flags about choosing a (new) partner?

-Religion ?

-Finances ?

- Personality/ character issues ? (specifically, please)

- Family conflicts/ expectations ?

[Spaced_Out]

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.

Totally disagree with the “rightousness = prosperous” doctrine. But boy it does exist in our church. Saw a 3year convert to the church become a High Councilman a few years back. Many people were surprised. I wasn’t, he fit the profile of the Local church leaders, Doctors, Lawyers and local Business Owners, of which he was the latter.

Some people come down to earth with many gifts of the spirit and develop them both spiritually and in vocation, and are given many talents or bring them with from the preexistence.. This is also due to hard work - becoming a doctor one must work hard in school and at work to be successful and will develop many talents on the way. It is not for you to judge another and the decisions of PH leaders. It has nothing to do with wealth but the individual gifts of the spirit and talents they have developed as well as righteous desires. I had a Bishop that was a fork lift driver in a steel mill, our current Bishop has no post high school qualifications so it does not always work like that.

Leadership is one of the most difficult things to develop in people many simply don't have it or are not prepared to accept responsibility. One needs to learn to follow first before leading, all I hear is the PH leaders are incorrectly criticising the males and chasing them away from the church and appointing people to positions of responsibility above them who are more desrving, the woman in the church have all the power and the men are easily manipulated... None of these things show leadership but cowardice and no surprise the sisters take control due to the extreme lack in leadership from the individuals making these accusations.

D&C46:29 That unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.

[Gage]

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.

Totally disagree with the “rightousness = prosperous” doctrine. But boy it does exist in our church. Saw a 3year convert to the church become a High Councilman a few years back. Many people were surprised. I wasn’t, he fit the profile of the Local church leaders, Doctors, Lawyers and local Business Owners, of which he was the latter.

Many Mormons base their testimonies on the things they have, not to the truth of the BofM or church doctrine, etc., many dont agree with much of what they read or are taught. Prosperous doctrine, I've seen it my whole life. The Church must be true as I am successful and have more than most. I must be living righteously as I am successful and have more than most. Righteousness is many times determined by how successful you are.

[Crackers]

Please know that the experiences many of you have shared here, about being made to feel less valued as a man and conversely seeing women as being put on a pedestal and given a pass on anything they do wrong, is not pervasive in the church. My husband has never in his life been made to feel this way, and neither have I or any of my teenagers (of both genders). I have never had any friends or family members mention anything of the kind happening in their experience. I have never heard this mentioned in any church classes or meetings. So please consider that while this may be your experience in your wards and lives, it is not mine, and it is not necessarily your neighbors'.

Sometimes we just find ourselves in difficult places and situations, surrounded by "difficult" people. I'm not saying that these things aren't happening to you, but I do think some of you have had some unfortunate experiences in the social culture of the church (as you've described), and now you are looking for it this particular problem, and have an ax to grind, and can't see that it isn't nearly as pervasive as you think it is. I am truly pained that some of you feel this way, and hope that you can find a way to look for the positive around you and see that things aren't as bad as you think.

[Sarah]

Yep. And you can believe the ones that have husbands that leave gain all the sympathy from the members and some eat it up. A one time Bishop in my ward found out some things about the Church he didnt agree with so he denounced his membership, left the Church. Ok, the wife before all this is already not happy with the marriage, this I knew, because I was good friends with their son. She rode the sympathy card like a champ, woe is me my husband left the church he has destroyed our marriage. Turns out she had been cheating on him with the same man before and after he left the Church, imagine that.

She was cheating on him, but she's the victim. She sounds like she has a lot in common with my not-yet-ex.

Mine publicly announced her engagement on Facebook four months before our first court date (which was postponed), she has made multiple statements to government officials about living with her fiance, she lives in a two bedroom apartment where our son has his own room, and has twice told a Bishop that she's not living with anybody else. And, apparently, she's telling everybody who will give her sympathy about what an abusive person I am. The really pathetic part: the stories of abuse that she tells describe how she treated me.

There are plenty of good and faithful sisters out there.

But it is a large problem in the church that our expectations for men are much higher than they are for women. We often give voice in talks to the idea that women are more naturally virtuous and faithful than men. This is absolutely false. I would suggest that it says more about how we measure faith than the faith itself.

When I was an Elders Quorum president, one of the members of the quorum went through a divorce. She left him and the kids because, in her words, he was not being faithful to his temple covenants. These "covenants" consisted of him making enough money to keep her happy. She left and within a few months and was dating a doctor in another ward and was married in just over a year. She devastated this mans life, took his kids, and received no negative consequence from the church at all. On the contrary, she was treated as a victim in her new ward.

I think another reason that many men are leaving the church is because the church has become very feminine and centralized, much like society at large. It no longer offers them anything of value. Compare what priesthood service meant in previous generations to now. I look at what my grandfathers did compared to what we do today and am left saddened. The focus of the church has changed from spreading the word of God, service, and building zion communities to "families", where the father is simply a second mother. Your church experience is planned by committees in Salt Lake instead of the members of the local ward. Quorum meeting is just another sunday school class. The word quorum has no significance at all anymore.

Men do not thrive in an environment where they have a title of leader but are really a manager. Where very little that is masculine is expected of them, but much that is feminine is. Where they are told repeatedly to quell that natural man where the same is not often emphasized with the sisters. Where men cannot be left alone with a woman or a child for fear they will attack them sexually. Where homosexuality is being treated as a normal male trait. Where men are often judged based on their career choice and wealth instead of their devotion to Christ.

I know many men who maintain a testimony of the restored Gospel but do not attend church. They just don't see the point anymore.

Well, like Brigham said in his day, if we ever get the call, "to your tents O Israel," because that's the only thing that would keep the people pure, you'll have plenty of manly things to do. You can chop all the wood you want and build lots of fires and guard us women while we tend the children and do all the cooking.

Seriously though, your friend's divorce is unfortunate, and I would guess it is fairly unusual if indeed the woman's main reason for leaving was for more money. We know that outsiders never get the whole story on divorce, or just one side of it. But for every woman in the Church who engages in bad behavior there is a man who is guilty of the same or similar crimes. If women are getting away with more, because of the weaknesses of men, those deeds are not going to be glossed over by God at judgment day, so best not to worry about what others are getting away with and worry about yourself, and not whine or complain about what our Church leaders are or not doing. If men are getting the tougher message, or higher standard placed upon them (which I don't believe they are), then why does that bother you? On one hand you want a more masculine environment in Church culture, but when treated like the tough guys you are you complain that women are getting softer treatment?

I'm with Crackers - it is not my experience at all in the Church, nor my husband's, that there is some pervasive man-bashing or woman praising in the Church. I hear the praise go both ways in testimony meeting, and there is a good balance in my ward of faithful men and women. I have been very impressed with everyone in my ward, men and women, although materialism and worldliness gets the best of both genders. I've had Bishops with very humble vocations.

I do think men need to be with other men and be working together. My husband would like nothing more than to go on a mission again and be with the boys, so maybe that is what the men are longing for - that team feeling like they have when playing sports. Being at home with children is so not fun - I get it! But I think if men have the chance to be in a good presidency, they get that man-time they need. If men aren't involved in a good-working council or presidency, I can see how they would feel something was missing in their church service.

[Serragon]

Please know that the experiences many of you have shared here, about being made to feel less valued as a man and conversely seeing women as being put on a pedestal and given a pass on anything they do wrong, is not pervasive in the church. My husband has never in his life been made to feel this way, and neither have I or any of my teenagers (of both genders). I have never had any friends or family members mention anything of the kind happening in their experience. I have never heard this mentioned in any church classes or meetings. So please consider that while this may be your experience in your wards and lives, it is not mine, and it is not necessarily your neighbors'.

Sometimes we just find ourselves in difficult places and situations, surrounded by "difficult" people. I'm not saying that these things aren't happening to you, but I do think some of you have had some unfortunate experiences in the social culture of the church (as you've described), and now you are looking for it this particular problem, and have an ax to grind, and can't see that it isn't nearly as pervasive as you think it is. I am truly pained that some of you feel this way, and hope that you can find a way to look for the positive around you and see that things aren't as bad as you think.

These things are pervasive. The anecdotal reasons you have given do not mean the problem doesn't exist. It simply means you have not noticed it. It is often difficult to see problems from the inside. A different perspective can make hidden things become clear. Many active men have no clue that church culture has been feminized because it is normal to them. There are some men who actually prefer this type of culture. But for many, it is distasteful.

I have no axe to grind. I have been in church leadership for over 20 years and am simply trying to help fix the issues. We talk about these things in presidency meetings often.

I learned the severity of the problem while visiting Elders who no longer came to church. It didn't take long to see a pattern develop. it is not talked about at church, because there is no real forum to talk about it at church. Very few quorums use their meetings as an actual quorum meetings where these things might get discussed. Whenever someone begins talking about things that are are critical of our current church culture or leaders in church meetings, people get uncomfortable or hostile. We often value not offending more than we value truth and self-reflection.

You seem to have a good heart, but telling people "things aren't as bad as you think" is no solution. it simply puts the blame on the people who no longer find any value in the feminized culture and and the feminized Gospel being preached.

[Serragon]

Well, like Brigham said in his day, if we ever get the call, "to your tents O Israel," because that's the only thing that would keep the people pure, you'll have plenty of manly things to do. You can chop all the wood you want and build lots of fires and guard us women while we tend the children and do all the cooking.

...

I do think men need to be with other men and be working together. My husband would like nothing more than to go on a mission again and be with the boys, so maybe that is what the men are longing for - that team feeling like they have when playing sports. Being at home with children is so not fun - I get it! But I think if men have the chance to be in a good presidency, they get that man-time they need. If men aren't involved in a good-working council or presidency, I can see how they would feel something was missing in their church service.

These comments are very condescending and show that you actually do not get it. Yours is is an extremely shallow interpretation of a serious problem.

[Gage]

I'm with Crackers - it is not my experience at all in the Church, nor my husband's, that there is some pervasive man-bashing or woman praising in the Church. I hear the praise go both ways in testimony meeting, and there is a good balance in my ward of faithful men and women. I have been very impressed with everyone in my ward, men and women, although materialism and worldliness gets the best of both genders. I've had Bishops with very humble vocations.


[/quote]


Do you think the Bishop is gona get up in Sacrament meeting and start bashing everyone in Relief Society?

[Crackers]

Please know that the experiences many of you have shared here, about being made to feel less valued as a man and conversely seeing women as being put on a pedestal and given a pass on anything they do wrong, is not pervasive in the church. My husband has never in his life been made to feel this way, and neither have I or any of my teenagers (of both genders). I have never had any friends or family members mention anything of the kind happening in their experience. I have never heard this mentioned in any church classes or meetings. So please consider that while this may be your experience in your wards and lives, it is not mine, and it is not necessarily your neighbors'.

Sometimes we just find ourselves in difficult places and situations, surrounded by "difficult" people. I'm not saying that these things aren't happening to you, but I do think some of you have had some unfortunate experiences in the social culture of the church (as you've described), and now you are looking for it this particular problem, and have an ax to grind, and can't see that it isn't nearly as pervasive as you think it is. I am truly pained that some of you feel this way, and hope that you can find a way to look for the positive around you and see that things aren't as bad as you think.

These things are pervasive. The anecdotal reasons you have given do not mean the problem doesn't exist. It simply means you have not noticed it. It is often difficult to see problems from the inside. A different perspective can make hidden things become clear. Many active men have no clue that church culture has been feminized because it is normal to them. There are some men who actually prefer this type of culture. But for many, it is distasteful.

I have no axe to grind. I have been in church leadership for over 20 years and am simply trying to help fix the issues. We talk about these things in presidency meetings often.

I learned the severity of the problem while visiting Elders who no longer came to church. It didn't take long to see a pattern develop. it is not talked about at church, because there is no real forum to talk about it at church. Very few quorums use their meetings as an actual quorum meetings where these things might get discussed. Whenever someone begins talking about things that are are critical of our current church culture or leaders in church meetings, people get uncomfortable or hostile. We often value not offending more than we value truth and self-reflection.

You seem to have a good heart, but telling people "things aren't as bad as you think" is no solution. it simply puts the blame on the people who no longer find any value in the feminized culture and and the feminized Gospel being preached.

I will ignore your condescending tone since you apparently missed the point of my post. These things happen in long threads like these, in which different ideas are being brought up simultaneously. I was not discussing male feminization in the church per se, as you are.

I was simply stating that my experience has been vastly different than many who are posting here with regard to this: Some posters are putting out the opinion that the church is overlooking women’s sins and compounding men’s. (Which is completely untrue. Even if you find examples of this is in individual areas and wards, it does not mean THE CHURCH is doing it or that it is pervasive.)

My comments regarding things being "not as bad as you think" speak to the need for some posters to stop emphasizing every bad thing they see and start noticing the good around them. Sorry if that seems overly positive or christian to you. But, again, we were talking about different things.

[Sarah]

I'm with Crackers - it is not my experience at all in the Church, nor my husband's, that there is some pervasive man-bashing or woman praising in the Church. I hear the praise go both ways in testimony meeting, and there is a good balance in my ward of faithful men and women. I have been very impressed with everyone in my ward, men and women, although materialism and worldliness gets the best of both genders. I've had Bishops with very humble vocations.

Do you think the Bishop is gona get up in Sacrament meeting and start bashing everyone in Relief Society?
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by this comment. Are you implying that Bishops get up all the time and start bashing men?

[Sarah]

Please know that the experiences many of you have shared here, about being made to feel less valued as a man and conversely seeing women as being put on a pedestal and given a pass on anything they do wrong, is not pervasive in the church. My husband has never in his life been made to feel this way, and neither have I or any of my teenagers (of both genders). I have never had any friends or family members mention anything of the kind happening in their experience. I have never heard this mentioned in any church classes or meetings. So please consider that while this may be your experience in your wards and lives, it is not mine, and it is not necessarily your neighbors'.

Sometimes we just find ourselves in difficult places and situations, surrounded by "difficult" people. I'm not saying that these things aren't happening to you, but I do think some of you have had some unfortunate experiences in the social culture of the church (as you've described), and now you are looking for it this particular problem, and have an ax to grind, and can't see that it isn't nearly as pervasive as you think it is. I am truly pained that some of you feel this way, and hope that you can find a way to look for the positive around you and see that things aren't as bad as you think.

These things are pervasive. The anecdotal reasons you have given do not mean the problem doesn't exist. It simply means you have not noticed it. It is often difficult to see problems from the inside. A different perspective can make hidden things become clear. Many active men have no clue that church culture has been feminized because it is normal to them. There are some men who actually prefer this type of culture. But for many, it is distasteful.

I have no axe to grind. I have been in church leadership for over 20 years and am simply trying to help fix the issues. We talk about these things in presidency meetings often.

I learned the severity of the problem while visiting Elders who no longer came to church. It didn't take long to see a pattern develop. it is not talked about at church, because there is no real forum to talk about it at church. Very few quorums use their meetings as an actual quorum meetings where these things might get discussed. Whenever someone begins talking about things that are are critical of our current church culture or leaders in church meetings, people get uncomfortable or hostile. We often value not offending more than we value truth and self-reflection.

You seem to have a good heart, but telling people "things aren't as bad as you think" is no solution. it simply puts the blame on the people who no longer find any value in the feminized culture and and the feminized Gospel being preached.

What was it about visiting with these elders that made you come to the conclusion that the Church is too feminine?

[Serragon]

What was it about visiting with these elders that made you come to the conclusion that the Church is too feminine?

I appreciate the question. I think my earlier post summed up what most of the brothers I met with were feeling.

And it isn't just that we have become more feminine in our methods of worship. It is also that we have become more centralized making priesthood holders managers instead of leaders. This appeals to the professional man but does little for anyone else. The environment created is very safe and controlled. Compare this to the quorum meetings of even 2 generations ago and the difference is stunning. Men used to actually debate gospel ideas. they might even disagree sometimes. There was deep study leading to discussion. There was action taken as a group in service, preaching, and building (literally) the kingdom. They formed teams and competed in athletics. They attempted to be a true brotherhood.

Now? A few semi-interested men sitting around a sunday school class attempting to recycle conference talks which generally are uplifting but with very little meat. Occasionally being chastised about not being diligent home teachers. Who probably won't associate with each other at all that week until next sunday.

Safety vs risk. Programs vs local. Church owned buildings vs locally built and owned structures. Watered down, non offensive doctrine vs standing for something.

These are all examples of the feminine vs masculine. Central vs. local. Herd vs individual. And on nearly every occasion, you will find that the feminine/central/herd mentality wins out over the masculine/local/individual.

I once asked for some volunteers to go on missionary splits. 1 hand went up. I then told a story about a family that the missionaries were teaching who had a pastor that was preaching anti-mormon doctrine to them. I told them he would be there for the missionary visit and they need an elder to go and counter the pastors message. 8 hands immediately shot up.

You can draw many conclusions from this story. You could probably conclude something negative about men for not volunteering for the generic assignment. But I think it speaks more to the nature of how we do things. Their experience with the program of splits led them to believe it would be a waste of their time. But given something specific and challenging and things changed.

[Sarah]

What was it about visiting with these elders that made you come to the conclusion that the Church is too feminine?

I appreciate the question. I think my earlier post summed up what most of the brothers I met with were feeling.

And it isn't just that we have become more feminine in our methods of worship. It is also that we have become more centralized making priesthood holders managers instead of leaders. This appeals to the professional man but does little for anyone else. The environment created is very safe and controlled. Compare this to the quorum meetings of even 2 generations ago and the difference is stunning. Men used to actually debate gospel ideas. they might even disagree sometimes. There was deep study leading to discussion. There was action taken as a group in service, preaching, and building (literally) the kingdom. They formed teams and competed in athletics. They attempted to be a true brotherhood.

Now? A few semi-interested men sitting around a sunday school class attempting to recycle conference talks which generally are uplifting but with very little meat. Occasionally being chastised about not being diligent home teachers. Who probably won't associate with each other at all that week until next sunday.

Safety vs risk. Programs vs local. Church owned buildings vs locally built and owned structures. Watered down, non offensive doctrine vs standing for something.

These are all examples of the feminine vs masculine. Central vs. local. Herd vs individual. And on nearly every occasion, you will find that the feminine/central/herd mentality wins out over the masculine/local/individual.

I once asked for some volunteers to go on missionary splits. 1 hand went up. I then told a story about a family that the missionaries were teaching who had a pastor that was preaching anti-mormon doctrine to them. I told them he would be there for the missionary visit and they need an elder to go and counter the pastors message. 8 hands immediately shot up.

You can draw many conclusions from this story. You could probably conclude something negative about men for not volunteering for the generic assignment. But I think it speaks more to the nature of how we do things. Their experience with the program of splits led them to believe it would be a waste of their time. But given something specific and challenging and things changed.

I appreciate you answering my question and clarifying your thoughts. I agree that some of these concerns are also things that I've noticed and concern me too, and I think it would be good to keep narrowing and defining the problems you see and offer specific solutions rather than making vague generalizations using labels that not everyone would agree on. So to call some things feminine and other things masculine, may not be the best way to describe something because its a vague description and open for interpretation. Why are water-downed lessons, and herd mentality "feminine." It's associating negative things with females.

If there is one thing I've noticed about the Lord's plan and all his truths, it is that there is a balance to things and also opposites, which when you look at and define the contradictions, and then try to reconcile, the truth of how to live in manifested. So we can say that men in particular, and I would say women too, like challenges. We also like to feel independent to some degree. The Church has centralized a lot of these challenges and has made things easier for us at the local level. I think what this teaches us is that while we are commanded to be one, and work together, the further we are from sharing in the work load, the less motivated we are and the feeling of being one is ironically reduced. The Church is by no means in it's perfected and redeemed state, so someday when we live the United Order we'll see how all these weaknesses in the organization can be solved. In the mean-time, I think our leaders are doing the best they can and that the Lord is in charge. I know our Bishop's number one concern right now is that Home and Visiting Teaching is so poor. He sees that we have so many secure, talented, smart, gospel rooted men and women in our ward and why should it be so hard for them to do one simple thing. I'm sure that is how many of the brethren feel about the saints in general. Maybe it is the Lord who is testing us with this challenge of doing the simple things first rather than it being a problem with our Leaders not giving us enough meat or challenges.

[Serragon]

Why are water-downed lessons, and herd mentality "feminine." It's associating negative things with females.

This is a good example of why things get watered down. I say "herd" and you think I am associating negative things with females. Herd is neither positive or negative. And women in general are more herd-like than men. We end up denying truths about ourselves and our natures for fear of offending leading to watered down doctrine. This desire to not overtly offend is also a feminine trait. Men prefer direct confrontation. Women prefer a smile and a hug all while building a coalition against the person behind the scenes. Neither is good or bad, just different. And each has their place.

If there is one thing I've noticed about the Lord's plan and all his truths, it is that there is a balance to things and also opposites, which when you look at and define the contradictions, and then try to reconcile, the truth of how to live in manifested. So we can say that men in particular, and I would say women too, like challenges. We also like to feel independent to some degree. The Church has centralized a lot of these challenges and has made things easier for us at the local level. I think what this teaches us is that while we are commanded to be one, and work together, the further we are from sharing in the work load, the less motivated we are and the feeling of being one is ironically reduced. The Church is by no means in it's perfected and redeemed state, so someday when we live the United Order we'll see how all these weaknesses in the organization can be solved. In the mean-time, I think our leaders are doing the best they can and that the Lord is in charge. I know our Bishop's number one concern right now is that Home and Visiting Teaching is so poor. He sees that we have so many secure, talented, smart, gospel rooted men and women in our ward and why should it be so hard for them to do one simple thing. I'm sure that is how many of the brethren feel about the saints in general. Maybe it is the Lord who is testing us with this challenge of doing the simple things first rather than it being a problem with our Leaders not giving us enough meat or challenges.

I agree that the Lords plan involves balance and opposites. I believe we are way out of balance right now, and it is not beneficial for either the men or the women. The result for men is that they stop engaging. The result for women is that there is nothing there to check their pride. In the past, we have been out of balance in the opposite direction with similar results.

Your story of your Bishop is right in line with what I am addressing. You have a ward full of awesome people, yet no one does anything. I would suggest that the root of that problem lies in the subject I am addressing.

[Rensai]

I was simply stating that my experience has been vastly different than many who are posting here with regard to this: Some posters are putting out the opinion that the church is overlooking women’s sins and compounding men’s. (Which is completely untrue. Even if you find examples of this is in individual areas and wards, it does not mean THE CHURCH is doing it or that it is pervasive.)

Why then are women allowed to teach a primary class alone, but a man cannot? I think the point of the thread is that you can prove beyond any reasonable requirement that the church does in fact treat men and women very differently and it is very pervasive. Just go listen/read a random sampling of talks from the priesthood session of conference vs the Women's session. There is a night and day difference.

Here is an example for you.

First, president Monson talking to the priesthood in 2011.

Now, brethren, I turn to another subject about which I feel impressed to address you. In the three years since I was sustained as President of the Church, I believe the saddest and most discouraging responsibility I have each week is the handling of cancellations of sealings. Each one was preceded by a joyous marriage in the house of the Lord, where a loving couple was beginning a new life together and looking forward to spending the rest of eternity with each other. And then months and years go by, and for one reason or another, love dies. It may be the result of financial problems, lack of communication, uncontrolled tempers, interference from in-laws, entanglement in sin. There are any number of reasons. In most cases divorce does not have to be the outcome.

The vast majority of requests for cancellations of sealings come from women who tried desperately to make a go of the marriage but who, in the final analysis, could not overcome the problems.

Why does he seem to automatically assume the Women's requests are truthful? How do they truly know the women are doing all they can to make it work and the men are not? Why not berate the women for all these divorce requests? If you read between the lines a bit here, it boils down to men suck, women are great, its all the Men's fault that these divorces are happening. That is exactly the kind of stereotyping everyone has been complaining about. You won't find a talk like that speaking against the women in this way. Here's another snippet from the same talk.

Now, I have thought a lot lately about you young men who are of an age to marry but who have not yet felt to do so. I see lovely young ladies who desire to be married and to raise families, and yet their opportunities are limited because so many young men are postponing marriage.

This is not a new situation. Much has been said concerning this matter by past Presidents of the Church. I share with you just one or two examples of their counsel.

Said President Harold B. Lee, “We are not doing our duty as holders of the priesthood when we go beyond the marriageable age and withhold ourselves from an honorable marriage to these lovely women.”6

President Gordon B. Hinckley said this: “My heart reaches out to … our single sisters, who long for marriage and cannot seem to find it. … I have far less sympathy for the young men, who under the customs of our society, have the prerogative to take the initiative in these matters but in so many cases fail to do so.”7

Again, its the Men's fault that they are putting off marriage, no mention of it being on women at all and in this snippet he quotes two other past presidents saying much the same thing.

Contrast that to what women hear in their sessions. Its nothing but an endless stream of praises.

Holland, 2015.

To all of our mothers everywhere, past, present, or future, I say, “Thank you. Thank you for giving birth, for shaping souls, for forming character, and for demonstrating the pure love of Christ.” To Mother Eve, to Sarah, Rebekah, and Rachel, to Mary of Nazareth, and to a Mother in Heaven, I say, “Thank you for your crucial role in fulfilling the purposes of eternity.” To all mothers in every circumstance, including those who struggle—and all will—I say, “Be peaceful. Believe in God and yourself. You are doing better than you think you are. In fact, you are saviors on Mount Zion,13 and like the Master you follow, your love ‘never faileth.’14 ” I can pay no higher tribute to anyone. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

or here's an even more egregious example from Holland, April 1997 general conference.
http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/art ... thers.html

"May I say to mothers collectively, in the name of the Lord, you are magnificent. You are doing terrifically well. The very fact that you have been given such a responsibility is everlasting evidence of the trust your Father in Heaven has in you.

This is straight up pandering. Lets apply an ounce of critical thinking and its clear its not true at all. Mothers collectively are doing terrifically well? Really? What about the mothers who dump their kids in daycare every day all day so they can buy nicer stuff and barely bother to raise them at all? Who's raising all the whining snowflakes, criminals, etc then? That must be the work of the fathers I guess. Society abounds with poorly raised children, but that's not what women want to hear so sure, mothers are all just great. Then he says that being a mother is evidence of the trust God has in them. What about women who cannot have children? God doesn't trust them I guess, but he does trust mothers who murder their babies, get them addicted to drugs before they are born, abuse them, etc. If you believe this statement is an honest assessment of mothers I'd like to sell you some ocean front property in Arizona.

So there are two night and day differences in how the church talks to men vs women. I think they are both pretty typical, but I'd love to be shown wrong. Show me the talks where women are blamed for all the divorces like the men are, or where they are blamed for much of anything bad. Show me where women are berated for porn like men are constantly. Sure, its a bigger problem for men, but its growing fast among women, but I have yet to hear a church talk ever associate that problem with women or talk about their problems with it.

As another fun exercise, something I've done several times while attending church in the Idaho/Utah area, try counting how many disparaging remarks are made toward men in church vs women. You have to be thinking about it and paying attention to get a good count because its so commonplace that most people hardly even notice it anymore; all the crappy jokes about women being the better half, etc. It adds up. In most of my tests, there are at least 4-5 disparaging remarks about men throughout one weekend of church meetings. For the women, it is usually zero, but sometimes 1-2 comments will pop up in priesthood or something if some guys start joking about their wives shopping too much or something like that. It has never gone beyond that very mild level of criticism though, and really isn't harmful either because it isn't stating that women are inferior, just teasing a little about a common trait many have. Unlike the jokes about men, that often allude to or outright state women are better. I also know from talking to others that many men actually truly do feel second class to their wives in the church these days and think that is good and right.

You can ignore the problem all you want, but it will only get worse. It is affecting all men in the states to some degree or another. Some will go with it and just roll over and accept their second class status, others will leave the church, etc. Either way, its a lie and its not doing anyone any good, least of all, the prideful women who go around talking about how there will be more women in the CK, openly criticize their husbands to the other women, etc while being completely oblivious to their own glaring pride and faults.

I firmly believe feminism has been mostly a huge attack on men, women, and the family from Satan from the get go and has only gotten worse. Yes, in the past there probably were a few legitimate grievances mixed in, but those issues are long past and it has morphed into an all out assault on both gender's roles and the family in general, and the evidence shows very clearly that the church has been caught up in that as well. We can't do anything about the disparity in conference talks, but we can at least make sure our own comments on our own wards are as fair as possible and we can choose our responses to others' comments as well. Imagine if when some dumb guy tries to joke about how much better women are, we all didn't laugh and encourage more of that stereotyping. What if we just let the awkward silence hit him to show disapproval and help him learn that that is wrong. We could make a difference on this problem, or, we can do nothing and keep pretending all is well.

[Crackers]

Why are water-downed lessons, and herd mentality "feminine." It's associating negative things with females.

This is a good example of why things get watered down. I say "herd" and you think I am associating negative things with females. Herd is neither positive or negative. And women in general are more herd-like than men. We end up denying truths about ourselves and our natures for fear of offending leading to watered down doctrine. This desire to not overtly offend is also a feminine trait. Men prefer direct confrontation. Women prefer a smile and a hug all while building a coalition against the person behind the scenes. Neither is good or bad, just different. And each has their place.

Ummm, I think it's funny that you listed what you view to be a bunch of negative "feminine" traits and then tell us not to be offended by it. Let's review some of the things you listed as associated with the feminine: Women want watered down, non offensive doctrine (vs standing for something); want watered-down lessons; have a herd mentality (Really?); don't want healthy debate of gospel ideas; don't want a challenge. Women prefer a smile and a hug all while building a coalition...behind the scenes. If you associate these things with the feminine, then you don't know any real women.

Sarah's response was spot on in showing that this is not feminine vs. masculine as much as general problems in the general population.

And maybe you could have found a better phrase than "herd mentality?" Do you seriously think that doesn't have a negative connotation?

By the way, although I am female (the feminine variety), I am not afraid of overtly offending you in this post. Does that rock your world?

[Crackers]

I was simply stating that my experience has been vastly different than many who are posting here with regard to this: Some posters are putting out the opinion that the church is overlooking women’s sins and compounding men’s. (Which is completely untrue. Even if you find examples of this is in individual areas and wards, it does not mean THE CHURCH is doing it or that it is pervasive.)

Why then are women allowed to teach a primary class alone, but a man cannot? I think the point of the thread is that you can prove beyond any reasonable requirement that the church does in fact treat men and women very differently and it is very pervasive. Just go listen/read a random sampling of talks from the priesthood session of conference vs the Women's session. There is a night and day difference.

Here is an example for you.

First, president Monson talking to the priesthood in 2011.

Now, brethren, I turn to another subject about which I feel impressed to address you. In the three years since I was sustained as President of the Church, I believe the saddest and most discouraging responsibility I have each week is the handling of cancellations of sealings. Each one was preceded by a joyous marriage in the house of the Lord, where a loving couple was beginning a new life together and looking forward to spending the rest of eternity with each other. And then months and years go by, and for one reason or another, love dies. It may be the result of financial problems, lack of communication, uncontrolled tempers, interference from in-laws, entanglement in sin. There are any number of reasons. In most cases divorce does not have to be the outcome.

The vast majority of requests for cancellations of sealings come from women who tried desperately to make a go of the marriage but who, in the final analysis, could not overcome the problems.

Why does he seem to automatically assume the Women's requests are truthful? How do they truly know the women are doing all they can to make it work and the men are not? Why not berate the women for all these divorce requests? If you read between the lines a bit here, it boils down to men suck, women are great, its all the Men's fault that these divorces are happening. That is exactly the kind of stereotyping everyone has been complaining about. You won't find a talk like that speaking against the women in this way. Here's another snippet from the same talk.

Now, I have thought a lot lately about you young men who are of an age to marry but who have not yet felt to do so. I see lovely young ladies who desire to be married and to raise families, and yet their opportunities are limited because so many young men are postponing marriage.

This is not a new situation. Much has been said concerning this matter by past Presidents of the Church. I share with you just one or two examples of their counsel.

Said President Harold B. Lee, “We are not doing our duty as holders of the priesthood when we go beyond the marriageable age and withhold ourselves from an honorable marriage to these lovely women.”6

President Gordon B. Hinckley said this: “My heart reaches out to … our single sisters, who long for marriage and cannot seem to find it. … I have far less sympathy for the young men, who under the customs of our society, have the prerogative to take the initiative in these matters but in so many cases fail to do so.”7

Again, its the Men's fault that they are putting off marriage, no mention of it being on women at all and in this snippet he quotes two other past presidents saying much the same thing.

Contrast that to what women hear in their sessions. Its nothing but an endless stream of praises.

Holland, 2015.

To all of our mothers everywhere, past, present, or future, I say, “Thank you. Thank you for giving birth, for shaping souls, for forming character, and for demonstrating the pure love of Christ.” To Mother Eve, to Sarah, Rebekah, and Rachel, to Mary of Nazareth, and to a Mother in Heaven, I say, “Thank you for your crucial role in fulfilling the purposes of eternity.” To all mothers in every circumstance, including those who struggle—and all will—I say, “Be peaceful. Believe in God and yourself. You are doing better than you think you are. In fact, you are saviors on Mount Zion,13 and like the Master you follow, your love ‘never faileth.’14 ” I can pay no higher tribute to anyone. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

or here's an even more egregious example from Holland, April 1997 general conference.
http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/art ... thers.html

"May I say to mothers collectively, in the name of the Lord, you are magnificent. You are doing terrifically well. The very fact that you have been given such a responsibility is everlasting evidence of the trust your Father in Heaven has in you.

This is straight up pandering. Lets apply an ounce of critical thinking and its clear its not true at all. Mothers collectively are doing terrifically well? Really? What about the mothers who dump their kids in daycare every day all day so they can buy nicer stuff and barely bother to raise them at all? Who's raising all the whining snowflakes, criminals, etc then? That must be the work of the fathers I guess. Society abounds with poorly raised children, but that's not what women want to hear so sure, mothers are all just great. Then he says that being a mother is evidence of the trust God has in them. What about women who cannot have children? God doesn't trust them I guess, but he does trust mothers who murder their babies, get them addicted to drugs before they are born, abuse them, etc. If you believe this statement is an honest assessment of mothers I'd like to sell you some ocean front property in Arizona.

So there are two night and day differences in how the church talks to men vs women. I think they are both pretty typical, but I'd love to be shown wrong. Show me the talks where women are blamed for all the divorces like the men are, or where they are blamed for much of anything bad. Show me where women are berated for porn like men are constantly. Sure, its a bigger problem for men, but its growing fast among women, but I have yet to hear a church talk ever associate that problem with women or talk about their problems with it.

As another fun exercise, something I've done several times while attending church in the Idaho/Utah area, try counting how many disparaging remarks are made toward men in church vs women. You have to be thinking about it and paying attention to get a good count because its so commonplace that most people hardly even notice it anymore; all the crappy jokes about women being the better half, etc. It adds up. In most of my tests, there are at least 4-5 disparaging remarks about men throughout one weekend of church meetings. For the women, it is usually zero, but sometimes 1-2 comments will pop up in priesthood or something if some guys start joking about their wives shopping too much or something like that. It has never gone beyond that very mild level of criticism though, and really isn't harmful either because it isn't stating that women are inferior, just teasing a little about a common trait many have. Unlike the jokes about men, that often allude to or outright state women are better. I also know from talking to others that many men actually truly do feel second class to their wives in the church these days and think that is good and right.

You can ignore the problem all you want, but it will only get worse. It is affecting all men in the states to some degree or another. Some will go with it and just roll over and accept their second class status, others will leave the church, etc. Either way, its a lie and its not doing anyone any good, least of all, the prideful women who go around talking about how there will be more women in the CK, openly criticize their husbands to the other women, etc while being completely oblivious to their own glaring pride and faults.

I firmly believe feminism has been mostly a huge attack on men, women, and the family from Satan from the get go and has only gotten worse. Yes, in the past there probably were a few legitimate grievances mixed in, but those issues are long past and it has morphed into an all out assault on both gender's roles and the family in general, and the evidence shows very clearly that the church has been caught up in that as well. We can't do anything about the disparity in conference talks, but we can at least make sure our own comments on our own wards are as fair as possible and we can choose our responses to others' comments as well. Imagine if when some dumb guy tries to joke about how much better women are, we all didn't laugh and encourage more of that stereotyping. What if we just let the awkward silence hit him to show disapproval and help him learn that that is wrong. We could make a difference on this problem, or, we can do nothing and keep pretending all is well.

Not conceding your point, but did you read my earlier post?:

"Is it just possible that the women need to hear one thing and the men need to hear another? Are we past the point that we acknowledge gender differences in sensitivities, outlook and communication?

Gender differences DO exist, and in general, if men hear that they are doing great, I suspect they would agree and never do anything more or look for improvement. But if women hear the same (they are doing remarkably well, their efforts are appreciated, they are loved), they feel inspired to do better. And the reverse would follow as well. If you tell a man that he is falling short, he can rally himself to act on that, but in general, the woman will feel beat up and defeated, and may not be able to muster the energy or desire to improve.

Obviously this is generally speaking, but when we hear speakers at General Conference and such, they are speaking to the general population."