The “shortage of Mormon men”

[Crackers]

This thread has been interesting.
Regarding Noah... https://youtu.be/ATGrbTN63H4

Many good points have been made & I’ve learned a couple things - thanks guys and gals.
This topic is related to other complex topics like marriage, feminism, chauvenism - even Noah’s ark! Ha ha

Some thoughts:
-Men tend to think more logically than women (generally - there’re exceptions like me).
-Internet access makes hiding inconvenient history & facts impossible & attempts to anyway, loses credibility.
-Church leaders kiss up to women while being harder on men for several reasons: projection & attempt to throw women a bone considering how men preside etc, partly maybe they sense that women take things to heart more than men, & women tend to have more influence on children (the future of the church) so care is given to not push them away.

Kiss up?

-The porn “problem” would be less a problem if sexuality was acknowledged as part of being human rather than as a shameful thing that is mostly avoided. About 1/4 of women never orgasm during sex & that might be why sex feels more as a chore to some (& why they stop) especially when sex is viewed by such shameful restrictions.

Have you ever read Elder Holland's short book called Of Souls, Symbols and Sacraments? He describes how sexual relations bring us closer to godhood more than anything else. He eloquently articulates sex's beauty and powers. It is only shameful when used inappropriately or outside of marriage, and that's because it s a misuse of something so inherently powerful. That is what the LDS church teaches, not as powerfully or clearly all the time, but that is clearly its position. Honestly, my entire life has been as an active member, and I have never been taught that, within its proper bounds, sex is shameful or to be avoided.

-I hate to say this but the church is in need of real leadership - someone who sees a vision of where we need to go and leads us there. These sweet men are trying their best with the cards they have - but what can you expect from someone in their last years of life, when they struggle physically and mentally?

I don't think you hated saying that at all. That was very telling.

-Someone mentioned men divorcing and then marrying latina or asian women. I wonder what point they were trying to make. I have seen this & (this is going to sound racist which I’m not but), in those cases, it seemed that the men wanted to be with someone “safer” who’d appreciate them more.
-Children do best being raised by both parents - one full time - generally mom (nursing etc). Some men & women have set the financial bar way higher than needed. It is still possible for many to have a one-income family if you live more modestly. Kids grow up fast & once they are all in school all day, moms can work part time - but ideally the goal of both parents is to ensure the best raising of their kids - above financial aspirations or marital struggles (besides extremes like abuse - by husband or wife).

[sandman45]

The earth was baptised during the flood and completely covered with water and Noah was in the ark for 370days

And God made Adam out of a dirt clod and made Eve out of a stolen bone. Come on, we know that much of the Old Testament is symbolic. Having a "burning of the bossum" does not mean someone has to grab a fire extinnguisher and spray you before you die from burns.

I have heard from current prophets seers and revelators that the flood was literal and did cover this realm called earth

[sandman45]

This thread has been interesting.
Regarding Noah... https://youtu.be/ATGrbTN63H4

Many good points have been made & I’ve learned a couple things - thanks guys and gals.
This topic is related to other complex topics like marriage, feminism, chauvenism - even Noah’s ark! Ha ha

Some thoughts:
-Men tend to think more logically than women (generally - there’re exceptions like me).
-Internet access makes hiding inconvenient history & facts impossible & attempts to anyway, loses credibility.
-Church leaders kiss up to women while being harder on men for several reasons: projection & attempt to throw women a bone considering how men preside etc, partly maybe they sense that women take things to heart more than men, & women tend to have more influence on children (the future of the church) so care is given to not push them away.

Kiss up?

-The porn “problem” would be less a problem if sexuality was acknowledged as part of being human rather than as a shameful thing that is mostly avoided. About 1/4 of women never orgasm during sex & that might be why sex feels more as a chore to some (& why they stop) especially when sex is viewed by such shameful restrictions.

Have you ever read Elder Holland's short book called Of Souls, Symbols and Sacraments? He describes how sexual relations bring us closer to godhood more than anything else. He eloquently articulates sex's beauty and powers. It is only shameful when used inappropriately or outside of marriage, and that's because it s a misuse of something so inherently powerful. That is what the LDS church teaches, not as powerfully or clearly all the time, but that is clearly its position. Honestly, my entire life has been as an active member, and I have never been taught that, within its proper bounds, sex is shameful or to be avoided.

-I hate to say this but the church is in need of real leadership - someone who sees a vision of where we need to go and leads us there. These sweet men are trying their best with the cards they have - but what can you expect from someone in their last years of life, when they struggle physically and mentally?

I don't think you hated saying that at all. That was very telling.

-Someone mentioned men divorcing and then marrying latina or asian women. I wonder what point they were trying to make. I have seen this & (this is going to sound racist which I’m not but), in those cases, it seemed that the men wanted to be with someone “safer” who’d appreciate them more.
-Children do best being raised by both parents - one full time - generally mom (nursing etc). Some men & women have set the financial bar way higher than needed. It is still possible for many to have a one-income family if you live more modestly. Kids grow up fast & once they are all in school all day, moms can work part time - but ideally the goal of both parents is to ensure the best raising of their kids - above financial aspirations or marital struggles (besides extremes like abuse - by husband or wife).

Amen we need real men with beards as prophets. And that will not be Politically Correct and tell it how it is. And to STOP dressing in suits and ties and trying to be like BABYLON and WALLSTREET.

We need them to PROPHESY as prophets, we need them to SEE into the Urim and Thummim as seers, we need them to REVEAL as revelators.

When was the last time we had a seer actually SEE into the Urim and Thummim?! Joseph? It’s about time one of the current brethren do that!!

We need leaders to show people how to talk to God face to face like Moses tried to do with the children of Israel. For Moses wanted all to become prophets and not just rely on him(Moses) to speak in behalf of God.

[brianj]

Thanks Fiannan. I appreciate your grounded perspectives.
I agree with a lot, except I don’t see porn as appealing to most women - more like soaps and romance novels etc. Women get turned on emotionally (which is why men need to work on listening & intimate communication!). And I’m not for polygamy. But otherwise, what you’ve expressed makes a lot of sense.

I try to be faithful to my covenants so I steer clear of pornography, but I wasn't always LDS and am simultaneously blessed and cursed with a very good memory. I also have a lot of friends who are not LDS, many of whom do partake of pornography. One recently told me that modern porn is not made for men and explained why without going into details of the "acting."

In the old days, what I recall, is films shot in sleazy environments with guys who weren't particularly attractive - actors much like the guys watching porn in cheap, dark hotel rooms. The male viewer was able to project himself into the scene. But these days the men are almost always very good looking and impeccably groomed - what women tend to want. The sets are often brightly lit mansions with expensive luxury cars parked out front, business jets, or luxury resorts. The actresses are often wearing very expensive jewelry. My friend's conclusion, after giving a more detailed description, was that your typical man is not going to be able to project himself into this type of environment because he could never afford it, but this is there to appeal to women who want to be the pampered beauty of a rich guy.

Many women have a very emotional craving for what a lot of money can buy. Heck, look at Sex and the City. I recall an interview wherein one of the actresses expressed regret for being a part of that series. She was in a movie theater for a screening, and apparently there's a scene where a guy who wants to marry one of the women gives her a giant walk-in closet. The women in the theater audibly swooned over that scene, equating a ridiculous expenditure with love.

[BeNotDeceived]

I'd be careful about going into this nephilim stuff to. There is a lot of embellishment beyond what the scriptures actually say in regards to them and a lot of it is kind of strange ideas. That's not official doctrine by prophets, seers, and revelators. People keep trying to add to the doctrine by intellectual sources that don't have the spirit of revelation.

This video is very long, but very interesting!

[Fiannan]

People can complain this way or that about women are too materialistic or men are too shell-shocked to get married but the end result will be that only a minority of LDS women will manage to get an LDS (active or not) man and maybe 2/3 will either marry outside the Church, be genetic dead-ends or have to use sperm donors to have kids.

The women who do not reproduce will contribute nothing to the genetic future of the Church.
The women who marry outside the Church (if they are lucky to get a man even then) will quite often have their children not connected to the LDS faith in the long-run.
The women who get sperm donation will at least contribute to the genetic future of the Church but generally such women only make one or perhaps two kids.
The women who do marry in the Church are being pressured by society (often wolves in sheep's clothing inside the Church) to limit their families. Many will conform to worldly ideals but not all. However, the latter will become increasingly rare.

So which will be the first temple decommissioned and sold to Muslims to become a mosque?

[Fiannan]

I also have a lot of friends who are not LDS, many of whom do partake of pornography. One recently told me that modern porn is not made for men and explained why without going into details of the "acting."

It may reflect the trend in many shows being produced for cable nowadays, that being the craving of women audiences for more sex and nudity. Yes, younger women want this, but they also want a story line and women not being exploited or portrayed as weak. As for porn, I had read that after the financial crash of 2007 many upper-class people help to make the ends meet by renting out their homes for porn shoots while mom, dad and the kids go on a vacation. This may explain the reason porn is now shot quite often with luxurious backdrops. I had never considered the idea that this was to lure female viewers but if it is then women are watching movies that further the idea that they are missing out.

[Thinker]

For the record, I am all for boldly stating truths & who cares about political correctness!
When I suggested better leadership, I mean these men who are leaving the church obviously are looking elsewhere for male role models. Why? Maybe some prioritize wordly things, but many are not inspired by what they get from the church - otherwise they’d be hanging around more. Don’t shoot the messenger. This thread and statistics show that men are leaving the church more. Why? If you want to solve a problem you need to know what the problem is.

Personally I love the elderly - many have so much wisdom to share. But It’s pretty clear that as people get really old, their mental and physical abilities become limited and I just think men need more which they’re not getting so they’re leaving. It’s similar idea that I believe both men and women should NOT have children when they really old (usually it’s men) because then they don’t have the energy etc to properly guide them all of the years they need it.

As to what specifically is needed from leadership- I’d say a big start would be correcting cognitive distortions - which would help solve numerous problems, besides being more mentally healthy and godly.

=

Bruce - thanks for the Jordan Peterson clip. It gets to the heart of the spiritual dilemma so many face (especially in our church). It’s the idea mentioned in scripture of not being luke warm & the parable of the talents. Many times I felt the temptation of doing nothing in order to be “safe” from sin. To deeply realize that “in each of us is a bit of all of us” is humbling but also scarey. To realize not just the good but also the evil that we each are capable of is something most want to ignore and pretend such horrible human weaknesses belong exclusively to “those bad guys over there.” Just as courage is not the absense of fear, but is acting in the face of fear... realizing our own potential and THEN consciously choosing the better part, is more godly than closing one eye while looking at & acting on our potential.

Another way of looking at it is through Fowler’s Faith stages. Stage 3 (where most active members probably are) might think stage 4 & 5 people have slipped behind - just because they are no longer “closing the other eye.” And maybe stage 4 & 5 people get tired of being called names like “apostate” or “sinner” just for opening their other eye (so to speak) & when nobody lives God’s will perfectly.
http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html

[BruceRGilbert]

"Revolving Door" Disillusionment.

It is one thing to identify or "recognize" a problem and quite another to understand "why." The "grand exodus" from the Church "may be" related to the "sifting" that was foretold or something quite different. With the advent of "ready access to information," it is apparent that "the weaknesses of the flesh" and "continuity" of a "charted course" has fallen prey to "irregularities." Such things have a tendency to cause "cognitive dissonance" and "re-examination." We live during a time when "history" is being re-interpreted, revised, and sometimes denied. In all of the "re-examination," the "baby," sometimes get thrown out with the wash," instead of fostering increased faith in "personal revelation." Too, the issue is further complicated when the "life blood" of "continuing revelation" is replaced with "inspiration" in the form of "review;" administration versus ministry. Edification is possible on "milk," but "protein" is had from "meat." The "Heavens" need not be closed.

[BruceRGilbert]

For the record, I am all for boldly stating truths & who cares about political correctness!
When I suggested better leadership, I mean these men who are leaving the church obviously are looking elsewhere for male role models. Why? Maybe some prioritize wordly things, but many are not inspired by what they get from the church - otherwise they’d be hanging around more. Don’t shoot the messenger. This thread and statistics show that men are leaving the church more. Why? If you want to solve a problem you need to know what the problem is.

As to what specifically is needed from leadership- I’d say a big start would be correcting cognitive distortions - which would help solve numerous problems, besides being more mentally healthy and godly.

=

Bruce - thanks for the Jordan Peterson clip. It gets to the heart of the spiritual dilemma so many face (especially in our church). It’s the idea mentioned in scripture of not being luke warm & the parable of the talents. Many times I felt the temptation of doing nothing in order to be “safe” from sin. To deeply realize that “in each of us is a bit of all of us” is humbling but also scarey. To realize not just the good but also the evil that we each are capable of is something most want to ignore and pretend such horrible human weaknesses belong exclusively to “those bad guys over there.” Just as courage is not the absense of fear, but is acting in the face of fear... realizing our own potential and THEN consciously choosing the better part, is more godly than closing one eye while looking at & acting on our potential.

Again, I am grateful. The exchange reminds me of Zenos' analogy of the olive tree that was used as a segue for Jacob's exposition and expansion into the allegory of the Vineyard. It is the utilization of information from another and building, therewith. I am reminded by Einstien's statement of being able to see further because of standing on the backs of giants. From sure foundations spring great edifices and in our "relative" instances, "mansions."

“If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.”
( History of the Church, 6:303. )

The greatest of all sight is that which looks within, it is called "in-sight." Thank you, Thinker - "in each of us is a bit of all of us" . . . it is called "Godliness."