The “shortage of Mormon men”

[JohnnyL]

Can we even say the words, "head of the house" without some degree of Pavlovian societal cringe?

Wow, I would bet if you used those words in today's Sunday school class you will trigger more than a few women who will look at their poodle husbands and ask, "You don't agree with that, do you?"

I was once in a Sunday School class where a man said something about presiding in the home and his wife responded by arguing with him! The world has been moving toward the destruction of the family, with contempt for proper roles being a major factor. Many women in the church treat their husbands with contempt and refuse to show respect or even consider his counsel.

Sadly, women know how to lie and have become expert at doing so. They will play the role of the ideal Mormon wife during courtship and into the beginning of the marriage, but once they get settled they start showing that they have no intention of submitting to or respecting their husbands.

I've even seen it on this board. Paraphrasing a post in a previous thread: "Physical intimacy is a very special thing so, even though it may be the most important thing a woman can do to show love to her husband, he should be thankful to have her show love in the way she feels like showing love instead of the way he needs love expressed. And if he ever withholds love just because his wife is consistently withholding her love, then he's showing that his love is conditional."

It seems like too many women in church aren't following the model that Adam and Eve received from God, and it's damning them... How then will RS ever be what it's supposed to be in the latter-days (a la President Kimball)?

[Gage]

they just about all do not believe the church's stance on gays I can just about guarantee that

Nor the Church stance on pornography...except the ones who can use their husband's history file to gain sympathy when they are unhappy with the marriage.

Yep. And you can believe the ones that have husbands that leave gain all the sympathy from the members and some eat it up. A one time Bishop in my ward found out some things about the Church he didnt agree with so he denounced his membership, left the Church. Ok, the wife before all this is already not happy with the marriage, this I knew, because I was good friends with their son. She rode the sympathy card like a champ, woe is me my husband left the church he has destroyed our marriage. Turns out she had been cheating on him with the same man before and after he left the Church, imagine that.

[brianj]

Yep. And you can believe the ones that have husbands that leave gain all the sympathy from the members and some eat it up. A one time Bishop in my ward found out some things about the Church he didnt agree with so he denounced his membership, left the Church. Ok, the wife before all this is already not happy with the marriage, this I knew, because I was good friends with their son. She rode the sympathy card like a champ, woe is me my husband left the church he has destroyed our marriage. Turns out she had been cheating on him with the same man before and after he left the Church, imagine that.

She was cheating on him, but she's the victim. She sounds like she has a lot in common with my not-yet-ex.

Mine publicly announced her engagement on Facebook four months before our first court date (which was postponed), she has made multiple statements to government officials about living with her fiance, she lives in a two bedroom apartment where our son has his own room, and has twice told a Bishop that she's not living with anybody else. And, apparently, she's telling everybody who will give her sympathy about what an abusive person I am. The really pathetic part: the stories of abuse that she tells describe how she treated me.

[brianj]

I feel a bit bad for selfishly thinking this way, but thank you to Deeper Storm for starting this thread.

I suffered over 25 years of abuse that included often telling me how thankful I should be to have her, and that nobody else would ever want to be with me.
I hear stories from a lot of guys about single LDS women who are so transparent that they immediately start asking a new guy about his income, job, and car.
I will not even consider going on a date until my divorce is finalized, but I am curious about what's out there so I have looked at a few LDS dating websites where I find a lot of women looking for a "good provider," a man who "knows how to treat a lady," a man who "knows how to spoil a lady," and that indirectly say a guy will always come last through the phrase "my kids come first."

All of this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to believe there are good women out there who want a man more than they want a provider of money. But if there are around two LDS single women for every single man, if there are such women the odds of me finding one who might actually be interested in me are definitely nonzero.

[JohnnyL]

I feel a bit bad for selfishly thinking this way, but thank you to Deeper Storm for starting this thread.

I suffered over 25 years of abuse that included often telling me how thankful I should be to have her, and that nobody else would ever want to be with me.
I hear stories from a lot of guys about single LDS women who are so transparent that they immediately start asking a new guy about his income, job, and car.
I will not even consider going on a date until my divorce is finalized, but I am curious about what's out there so I have looked at a few LDS dating websites where I find a lot of women looking for a "good provider," a man who "knows how to treat a lady," a man who "knows how to spoil a lady," and that indirectly say a guy will always come last through the phrase "my kids come first."

All of this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to believe there are good women out there who want a man more than they want a provider of money. But if there are around two LDS single women for every single man, if there are such women the odds of me finding one who might actually be interested in me are definitely nonzero.

Wow, frankly they sound like pay-fors, not wives.

[Fiannan]

All of this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to believe there are good women out there who want a man more than they want a provider of money.

Actually not all are. True, many Mormon women would never wear see-through blouses to the mall or a bikini at the beach but they are more immodest than a Hollywood starlet walking down the red carpet not daring to bend over as she would fall out of her dress. The scriptures talk of women wearing trinkets and costly apparel and that in the last days they will be consumed by diseases we won't translate the Hebrew to describe. This is what consumerism brings with it - spiritual decay and even physical death. Many materialistic members of the Church.

However, there are many women who do live up to the scriptural image of a wholesome woman and would make great wives. God created Eve as a companion and help-mate. In both the Old Testament and New we can find descriptions of a righteous woman. The horror stories many men have shared here on this forum and countless other sites on the net do not describe the ideal woman of God. And a man who is single or about to become single again needs to search such women out. And remember, they may be the ones who are outsiders, who may have two or three rings in each ear, or see their time in Relief Society the worse hour of the week. Look past images, use discernment and find someone who will work with you to create a fantastic God-fearing family. Let some other poor dude get the Disney princess or just let the DP spend the rest of her life with five cats and the illusion she will find Mr. Right in the next life.

[brianj]

I feel a bit bad for selfishly thinking this way, but thank you to Deeper Storm for starting this thread.

I suffered over 25 years of abuse that included often telling me how thankful I should be to have her, and that nobody else would ever want to be with me.
I hear stories from a lot of guys about single LDS women who are so transparent that they immediately start asking a new guy about his income, job, and car.
I will not even consider going on a date until my divorce is finalized, but I am curious about what's out there so I have looked at a few LDS dating websites where I find a lot of women looking for a "good provider," a man who "knows how to treat a lady," a man who "knows how to spoil a lady," and that indirectly say a guy will always come last through the phrase "my kids come first."

All of this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to believe there are good women out there who want a man more than they want a provider of money. But if there are around two LDS single women for every single man, if there are such women the odds of me finding one who might actually be interested in me are definitely nonzero.

Wow, frankly they sound like pay-fors, not wives.

In the world there's something happening called Men Going Their Own Way, or MGTOW. It's men who are fed up and swearing off real relationships with women because so many women treat men like nothing more than a utility. These women have high demands of men but are willing to give almost nothing in return, seeming to believe their presence in a man's life is gift enough. Young women are being taught how to evaluate a man as a provider now and a payer of alimony later instead of as a loving lifelong companion.

So if I were to date outside the "faithful" LDS community I would expect this. But my observations and the many anecdotes I have heard or read convince me there are a lot of women within the church who have adopted this attitude. It is one more thing I wish leaders would address and confront but, as has so often been pointed out here, we very rarely see women called out for their inappropriate behaviors.

[brianj]

All of this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to believe there are good women out there who want a man more than they want a provider of money.

Actually not all are. True, many Mormon women would never wear see-through blouses to the mall or a bikini at the beach but they are more immodest than a Hollywood starlet walking down the red carpet not daring to bend over as she would fall out of her dress. The scriptures talk of women wearing trinkets and costly apparel and that in the last days they will be consumed by diseases we won't translate the Hebrew to describe. This is what consumerism brings with it - spiritual decay and even physical death. Many materialistic members of the Church.

However, there are many women who do live up to the scriptural image of a wholesome woman and would make great wives. God created Eve as a companion and help-mate. In both the Old Testament and New we can find descriptions of a righteous woman. The horror stories many men have shared here on this forum and countless other sites on the net do not describe the ideal woman of God. And a man who is single or about to become single again needs to search such women out. And remember, they may be the ones who are outsiders, who may have two or three rings in each ear, or see their time in Relief Society the worse hour of the week. Look past images, use discernment and find someone who will work with you to create a fantastic God-fearing family. Let some other poor dude get the Disney princess or just let the DP spend the rest of her life with five cats and the illusion she will find Mr. Right in the next life.

The problem, the fear, is not being able to tell who a person really is and who they will be a few years down the road.

One of my friends seems to have really bad luck with women. His first wife one day decided that she didn't want to be a Mormon any more and said she would be filing for divorce on Christmas day. A couple of years later he remarried and had a very good relationship for several years, but one day she just changed. She suddenly became worldly, materialistic, and unfaithful.

My experience is different. She didn't really change; she put on an act pretending to be someone she isn't. I spoke of how much I loved my mission and how I can't wait to go on another one as a senior couple and she was all for it, but within months of marriage would get upset and angry over the thought because it's totally unreasonable for her to leave her grandchildren for even a six month mission. The quiet, submissive woman I courted almost immediately became a demanding, controlling person who mocked other women for saying they submit to their husbands.

I know there are great women out there, I have come to know several women I wished I could have as my wife, but they were married and their hearts firmly belonged to their husbands. The worry I have is finding and recognizing such a woman.

[Fiannan]

So if I were to date outside the "faithful" LDS community I would expect this. But my observations and the many anecdotes I have heard or read convince me there are a lot of women within the church who have adopted this attitude. It is one more thing I wish leaders would address and confront but, as has so often been pointed out here, we very rarely see women called out for their inappropriate behaviors.

I was lucky. I got a woman who is firm in the Gospel, who would never budge in faith, but finds many Mormon women phony. She is not someone who is rigid in regards to the "rules" but is firm on the principles. Not surprisingly she is often grumbling after going to our ward.

In fairness to our leaders they were "young" back in the 1950s and 1960s for the most part. The women they are married to were not only socialized in that more conservative era but they were also (generally) growing up in LDS homes which were even more traditional. Hate to say it but for the most part our leaders are out-of-touch with reality.

I recently was at a stake conference where a very dynamic member of the 70 and his wife spoke. They were in their mid-60s and were discussing home, family, and all sorts of issues relating to being a good LDS person. They were flanked (sitting in back) by 4 female missionaries. I am pretty good at analyzing facial expressions and body language and two of the missionaries looked as if they were extremely uncomfortable with the speaker's messages and the arrogance on one's face reminded me of the looks of a typical SJW when confronted with an opinion they find objectionable. It was hard to concentrate on the talks when the people behind the speakers looked triggered.

Heaven help the poor LDS return missionary men who hook up with these women. On a positive note, none of the women had multiple ear-rings.

[Spaced_Out]

You guys are funny and prob deserve to get chewed up and spat out by a feminist. One should not accept bad behaviour. You talk about the "man" as the head of the house but are so easily chewed up and regurgitated - where is the real manly leadership. Nothing happens to you unless you allow it.

[Gage]

So if I were to date outside the "faithful" LDS community I would expect this. But my observations and the many anecdotes I have heard or read convince me there are a lot of women within the church who have adopted this attitude. It is one more thing I wish leaders would address and confront but, as has so often been pointed out here, we very rarely see women called out for their inappropriate behaviors.
[/quote]




Leaders calling out women would stir up more backlash than the calling out of homosexuals. LDS women are taught from birth that they are pure and perfect princesses.

[JohnnyL]

You guys are funny and prob deserve to get chewed up and spat out by a feminist. One should not accept bad behaviour. You talk about the "man" as the head of the house but are so easily chewed up and regurgitated - where is the real manly leadership. Nothing happens to you unless you allow it.

Oh no, it's no problem--if I want a divorce.

[JohnnyL]

All of this makes it difficult, if not impossible, to believe there are good women out there who want a man more than they want a provider of money.

Actually not all are. True, many Mormon women would never wear see-through blouses to the mall or a bikini at the beach but they are more immodest than a Hollywood starlet walking down the red carpet not daring to bend over as she would fall out of her dress. The scriptures talk of women wearing trinkets and costly apparel and that in the last days they will be consumed by diseases we won't translate the Hebrew to describe. This is what consumerism brings with it - spiritual decay and even physical death. Many materialistic members of the Church.

However, there are many women who do live up to the scriptural image of a wholesome woman and would make great wives. God created Eve as a companion and help-mate. In both the Old Testament and New we can find descriptions of a righteous woman. The horror stories many men have shared here on this forum and countless other sites on the net do not describe the ideal woman of God. And a man who is single or about to become single again needs to search such women out. And remember, they may be the ones who are outsiders, who may have two or three rings in each ear, or see their time in Relief Society the worse hour of the week. Look past images, use discernment and find someone who will work with you to create a fantastic God-fearing family. Let some other poor dude get the Disney princess or just let the DP spend the rest of her life with five cats and the illusion she will find Mr. Right in the next life.

I disagree. Someone who is not obeying the letter of the law, is not obeying the spirit of the law. Doesn't mean they don't have good, just a very good chance you won't be eternal.

[JohnnyL]

So if I were to date outside the "faithful" LDS community I would expect this. But my observations and the many anecdotes I have heard or read convince me there are a lot of women within the church who have adopted this attitude. It is one more thing I wish leaders would address and confront but, as has so often been pointed out here, we very rarely see women called out for their inappropriate behaviors.

I was lucky. I got a woman who is firm in the Gospel, who would never budge in faith, but finds many Mormon women phony. She is not someone who is rigid in regards to the "rules" but is firm on the principles. Not surprisingly she is often grumbling after going to our ward.

In fairness to our leaders they were "young" back in the 1950s and 1960s for the most part. The women they are married to were not only socialized in that more conservative era but they were also (generally) growing up in LDS homes which were even more traditional. Hate to say it but for the most part our leaders are out-of-touch with reality.

I recently was at a stake conference where a very dynamic member of the 70 and his wife spoke. They were in their mid-60s and were discussing home, family, and all sorts of issues relating to being a good LDS person. They were flanked (sitting in back) by 4 female missionaries. I am pretty good at analyzing facial expressions and body language and two of the missionaries looked as if they were extremely uncomfortable with the speaker's messages and the arrogance on one's face reminded me of the looks of a typical SJW when confronted with an opinion they find objectionable. It was hard to concentrate on the talks when the people behind the speakers looked triggered.

Heaven help the poor LDS return missionary men who hook up with these women. On a positive note, none of the women had multiple ear-rings.

A lot of truth here.

And it took President McKay years before he realized those temple divorces weren't as one-sided as he used to believe.

When Elder Holland talks about his worst marriage experience as his wife getting mad and sitting on the opposite side of the eat-in, it makes you wonder...

[AI2.0]

There isn't a shortage of Mormon men, there does seem to be a shortage of righteous, committed LDS men who want to marry righteous committed LDS women.

We know that there is a large percentage of returned missionaries who go inactive after their missions. One has to wonder why? There are lots of reasons; They get caught up in worldly interests, some get involved with pornography and this keeps them from having an interest in a real woman or hurts their ability to relate to real women; Others fall back into their old high school ways and don't really want to move into adulthood, taking on a wife, children and looking forward to a future of working to make a living to support them. They don't put the time or effort into seeking out a wife, but instead, keep relationships superficial. Some LDS men's standards of attitude/behavior are lax; they aren't truly committed to living righteous, clean lives of service and devotion and will drag down their family to their telestial level and resent their wife/girlfriend's attempts to get them to live on a terrestrial or celestial level.

Oftentimes, I think that they are hampered by the candy store dilemna. With the internet making the world so small, they see how many different choices they have in marriageable women and so they can't decide. They don't want to settle with one and so, put it off with endless dating or 'hanging out'.

A serious problem is making poor dating/marriage choices: Many make poor choices, choosing their dates/mates because of superficial things--it's surprising how many men will blindly saddle themselves with a pretty, young, immature high maintenance girl--because they were attracted to her and wanted a wife that would make their friends envious. Then, she turns out to be shallow and selfish, unprepared for the sacrifices needed to make a relationship work, making them and their mate miserable and regardless of whether the marriage survives or not--the man becomes bitter, resentful and makes the mistake of judging all women to be like their wife/exgirlfriend. Then, it's no wonder the men then can't find anyone interested in them--they have such a misogynistic attitude that comes across to women they come in contact with-- so, why would any sane woman want to take that on?

IMO, it's more attractive to remain single than have to settle for marrying a man who's problems prevent him from being a good husband and father and will make your life miserable.

[iWriteStuff]

There isn't a shortage of Mormon men, there does seem to be a shortage of righteous, committed LDS men who want to marry righteous committed LDS women.

We know that there is a large percentage of returned missionaries who go inactive after their missions. One has to wonder why? There are lots of reasons; They get caught up in worldly interests, some get involved with pornography and this keeps them from having an interest in a real woman or hurts their ability to relate to real women; Others fall back into their old high school ways and don't really want to move into adulthood, taking on a wife, children and looking forward to a future of working to make a living to support them. They don't put the time or effort into seeking out a wife, but instead, keep relationships superficial. Some LDS men's standards of attitude/behavior are lax; they aren't truly committed to living righteous, clean lives of service and devotion and will drag down their family to their telestial level and resent their wife/girlfriend's attempts to get them to live on a terrestrial or celestial level.

Oftentimes, I think that they are hampered by the candy store dilemna. With the internet making the world so small, they see how many different choices they have in marriageable women and so they can't decide. They don't want to settle with one and so, put it off with endless dating or 'hanging out'.

A serious problem is making poor dating/marriage choices: Many make poor choices, choosing their dates/mates because of superficial things--it's surprising how many men will blindly saddle themselves with a pretty, young, immature high maintenance girl--because they were attracted to her and wanted a wife that would make their friends envious. Then, she turns out to be shallow and selfish, unprepared for the sacrifices needed to make a relationship work, making them and their mate miserable and regardless of whether the marriage survives or not--the man becomes bitter, resentful and makes the mistake of judging all women to be like their wife/exgirlfriend. Then, it's no wonder the men then can't find anyone interested in them--they have such a misogynistic attitude that comes across to women they come in contact with-- so, why would any sane woman want to take that on?

IMO, it's more attractive to remain single than have to settle for marrying a man who's problems prevent him from being a good husband and father and will make your life miserable.

Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here. Telling men that they will find a great wife as long as they are righteous, work hard, go to church, stay temple worthy, and treat all women with respect is about as nonsensical as telling a woman all she has to do is marry an RM and celestial happiness is guaranteed. It takes both sides. If there's one aspect of church culture that rubs me wrong it's the deification of all women and the constant "Stop playing video games and thinking naughty thoughts" attacks we get as men, even if we do neither. Men aren't the only imperfect beings God created. However, we seem to be the only ones whose flaws can be fairly targeted. The following meme sums it up pretty well:

womensconference.jpg (159.46 KiB) Viewed 1063 times

What if men were congratulated for staying worthy, for preparing to be responsible providers, for seeking virtuous women? What if our efforts at staying true to the gospel were praised as frequently as they are in Relief Society or Women's Conference? If you ever listen to Priesthood session and compare it to Women's Conference, in one you get a stern fatherly talking to while in the other it's all "You sisters are just awesome. It's just a shame all you celestial ladies have to put up with telestial husbands." Jesus wasn't deferential to one gender or the other - he called out imperfections when needed and praised when needed. I don't see the equality these days.

There are plenty of good single Mormon men. I would put it to you that there are plenty out there who are single by no fault of their own. Satan isn't just attacking the men of the church. Just last night my wife was sitting with her extended family talking about how we both work to strengthen each others' weaknesses, neither of us being perfect. I think that is how it ought to be. I'm not perfect, she's not perfect, but we're both doing our best. Blame and keeping score only keep us apart.

[captainfearnot]

We know that there is a large percentage of returned missionaries who go inactive after their missions. One has to wonder why? There are lots of reasons; They get caught up in worldly interests, some get involved with pornography and this keeps them from having an interest in a real woman or hurts their ability to relate to real women; Others fall back into their old high school ways and don't really want to move into adulthood, taking on a wife, children and looking forward to a future of working to make a living to support them.

In your view, does RM status impact the prevalence of these outcomes? Are you saying that having served a mission increases the likelihood that a young man will fall into these patterns and go inactive? Or is this something that plagues all Mormon men of a certain age, which just happens to correspond to coming home from a mission for most of them?

In my view, what you're describing here are the symptoms of inactivity among RMs, not the cause. Missions can be very disillusioning for a lot of young men. It's often just not what they expected it to be, in a lot of ways. After that experience their enthusiasm for the church in general is sapped, and then all the other stuff you mention starts to exert more influence. If young men returned from missions as spiritually fortified as when they left, then they wouldn't have any trouble resisting all those temptations and remaining active and committed. Just as they did before their missions.

[RAB]

I just feel I should mention that there are still great Mormon women out there. I married one. I could tell my wife was completely committed to the gospel, and we agreed on the important issues (activity in the Church, how many children we wanted to have, whether and when she would work, etc.). My Sister in Law (wife's Sister) was another great woman out there who didn't get married until she was 39. She wasn't waiting for the perfect guy, she just wasn't really asked out by that many guys. She ended up marrying a very good man (divorced with four kids), whose wife had cheated on him multiple times. In short, good men and good women are out there. Don't give up if you are single. And if you are struggling in your marriage, I find the Strengthening Marriage guide in the gospel library to be a great resource. My marriage is pretty good (solid terrestrial), but I am working on making it Celestial. The Strengthening Marriage guide is a good start.

[WhereCanITurn4Peace]

Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here.

How about the "Blame the women" attitude that is frequently expressed by certain posters? Seems pretty hypocritical to see men complaining about Conference talks in which are made sweeping generalizations about Mormon women being perfect and then turning around to bang on that same discordant key with their own oft repeated and tiresome comments about LDS women as gold-digging harlots.

I totally agree that "it takes both sides" and "blame and keeping score keep us apart". I see nothing good in pitting men against women (and vice versa) and wish there were less of these kind of threads and more uplifting discussions about relationships, marriages, serving one another, etc.

[PressingForward]

So if I were to date outside the "faithful" LDS community I would expect this. But my observations and the many anecdotes I have heard or read convince me there are a lot of women within the church who have adopted this attitude. It is one more thing I wish leaders would address and confront but, as has so often been pointed out here, we very rarely see women called out for their inappropriate behaviors.

contemplate........

After I decided that a mission was not for me, there were NO “faithful” LDS girls that would date me. I ultimately gave up on LDS girls. This was actually the main reason I went inactive for a few years. I met my wife after returning to church in my hometown after college and 10 years into a career. She’s NOT LDS, But we raised our kids in the church.
I’m still looked at as “unworthy” by my church peers. I have many “strikes” against me as several church leaders have TOLD me.
1). I’m not a returned missionary. (Neither are any of the first Presidency, never served a full time mission as a young man)
2). I married outside of the church, she has not converted, thus I MUST be doing something wrong.
3). Not sealed in the temple. See number 2
4). After having had some great success, I quite my career to raise my children and let my wife pursue her career. This is
Actually the one almost all leaders have brought up to me.
My Bishop brothers told me that all of these are reasons why I never got to serve in Young Men’s when my son advanced thru the Aaronic Priesthood, or why I never served in an Elders Quorum, or why I never get callings in the wards we have lived in.
I’m active
Attend all church functions(we will even go to trunk or treat even though our kids are gone)
Pay my tithing. (It pains me, which has become my own curse, but it has to go to the church for me to go to the temple)
Attend the Temple(this is where I feel close to God, NOT at church)

Note: my parents and siblings treat me as second class citizen, all based on Church, Not the Gospel.......sucks
I have a beautiful Wife, we both love and honor each other, I’m the only sibling not divorced, only wish I could be sealed to
To her for Eternity, and to my children, whom are wonderful adults now.......

[Crackers]

Can some of you stop your women-bashing long enough to read this?

Is it just possible that the women need to hear one thing and the men need to hear another? Are we past the point that we acknowledge gender differences in sensitivities, outlook and communication?

Gender differences DO exist, and in general, if men hear that they are doing great, I suspect they would agree and never do anything more or look for improvement. But if women hear the same (they are doing remarkably well, their efforts are appreciated, they are loved), they feel inspired to do better. And the reverse would follow as well. If you tell a man that he is falling short, he can rally himself to act on that, but in general, the woman will feel beat up and defeated, and may not be able to muster the energy or desire to improve.

Obviously this is generally speaking, but when we hear speakers at General Conference and such, they are speaking to the general population.

[iWriteStuff]

Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here.

How about the "Blame the women" attitude that is frequently expressed by certain posters? Seems pretty hypocritical to see men complaining about Conference talks in which are made sweeping generalizations about Mormon women being perfect and then turning around to bang on that same discordant key with their own oft repeated and tiresome comments about LDS women as gold-digging harlots.

I totally agree that "it takes both sides" and "blame and keeping score keep us apart". I see nothing good in pitting men against women (and vice versa) and wish there were less of these kind of threads and more uplifting discussions about relationships, marriages, serving one another, etc.

I agree that we need a balanced approach. That was kind of my final point there. We can say there's not enough good men in the church because some would rather play video games and hang out with their buddies, and we can say that there are some women who won't go out with anyone less than apostolic. I'm guessing both are correct. I was mostly responding to AI2.0's comments, which seemed to bend slightly more in the "It's the guys' fault" direction.

I think it safe to say both men and women are fallen individuals and have much need of repentance and humility.

[RAB]

So if I were to date outside the "faithful" LDS community I would expect this. But my observations and the many anecdotes I have heard or read convince me there are a lot of women within the church who have adopted this attitude. It is one more thing I wish leaders would address and confront but, as has so often been pointed out here, we very rarely see women called out for their inappropriate behaviors.

contemplate........

After I decided that a mission was not for me, there were NO “faithful” LDS girls that would date me. I ultimately gave up on LDS girls. This was actually the main reason I went inactive for a few years. I met my wife after returning to church in my hometown after college and 10 years into a career. She’s NOT LDS, But we raised our kids in the church.
I’m still looked at as “unworthy” by my church peers. I have many “strikes” against me as several church leaders have TOLD me.
1). I’m not a returned missionary. (Neither are any of the first Presidency, never served a full time mission as a young man)
2). I married outside of the church, she has not converted, thus I MUST be doing something wrong.
3). Not sealed in the temple. See number 2
4). After having had some great success, I quite my career to raise my children and let my wife pursue her career. This is
Actually the one almost all leaders have brought up to me.
My Bishop brothers told me that all of these are reasons why I never got to serve in Young Men’s when my son advanced thru the Aaronic Priesthood, or why I never served in an Elders Quorum, or why I never get callings in the wards we have lived in.
I’m active
Attend all church functions(we will even go to trunk or treat even though our kids are gone)
Pay my tithing. (It pains me, which has become my own curse, but it has to go to the church for me to go to the temple)
Attend the Temple(this is where I feel close to God, NOT at church)

Note: my parents and siblings treat me as second class citizen, all based on Church, Not the Gospel.......sucks
I have a beautiful Wife, we both love and honor each other, I’m the only sibling not divorced, only wish I could be sealed to
To her for Eternity, and to my children, whom are wonderful adults now.......

I am sorry to hear about your negative experiences. Life is about progress, and you are obviously progressing. As for the Church, there is a reason it is considered a hospital for the ill and broken. The ill and broken include all the leadership in the church, as well as the members. As such, we need to look past one another's weaknesses and try to uplift one another. I wish you the best. I hope your wife someday changes her heart, and decides she wants an eternity with you as well your children. I have no doubt that your example and diligence is having an impact her. But real, lasting change takes time. Don't give up.

[gkearney]

I would point out however that religiously active women outnumber religiously active men in nearly all denomination. This cover from a May 1959 Saturday Evening Post works because it is fundamentally true.

[AI2.0]

There isn't a shortage of Mormon men, there does seem to be a shortage of righteous, committed LDS men who want to marry righteous committed LDS women.

We know that there is a large percentage of returned missionaries who go inactive after their missions. One has to wonder why? There are lots of reasons; They get caught up in worldly interests, some get involved with pornography and this keeps them from having an interest in a real woman or hurts their ability to relate to real women; Others fall back into their old high school ways and don't really want to move into adulthood, taking on a wife, children and looking forward to a future of working to make a living to support them. They don't put the time or effort into seeking out a wife, but instead, keep relationships superficial. Some LDS men's standards of attitude/behavior are lax; they aren't truly committed to living righteous, clean lives of service and devotion and will drag down their family to their telestial level and resent their wife/girlfriend's attempts to get them to live on a terrestrial or celestial level.

Oftentimes, I think that they are hampered by the candy store dilemna. With the internet making the world so small, they see how many different choices they have in marriageable women and so they can't decide. They don't want to settle with one and so, put it off with endless dating or 'hanging out'.

A serious problem is making poor dating/marriage choices: Many make poor choices, choosing their dates/mates because of superficial things--it's surprising how many men will blindly saddle themselves with a pretty, young, immature high maintenance girl--because they were attracted to her and wanted a wife that would make their friends envious. Then, she turns out to be shallow and selfish, unprepared for the sacrifices needed to make a relationship work, making them and their mate miserable and regardless of whether the marriage survives or not--the man becomes bitter, resentful and makes the mistake of judging all women to be like their wife/exgirlfriend. Then, it's no wonder the men then can't find anyone interested in them--they have such a misogynistic attitude that comes across to women they come in contact with-- so, why would any sane woman want to take that on?

IMO, it's more attractive to remain single than have to settle for marrying a man who's problems prevent him from being a good husband and father and will make your life miserable.

Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here. Telling men that they will find a great wife as long as they are righteous, work hard, go to church, stay temple worthy, and treat all women with respect is about as nonsensical as telling a woman all she has to do is marry an RM and celestial happiness is guaranteed. It takes both sides. If there's one aspect of church culture that rubs me wrong it's the deification of all women and the constant "Stop playing video games and thinking naughty thoughts" attacks we get as men, even if we do neither. Men aren't the only imperfect beings God created. However, we seem to be the only ones whose flaws can be fairly targeted. The following meme sums it up pretty well:
womensconference.jpg

What if men were congratulated for staying worthy, for preparing to be responsible providers, for seeking virtuous women? What if our efforts at staying true to the gospel were praised as frequently as they are in Relief Society or Women's Conference? If you ever listen to Priesthood session and compare it to Women's Conference, in one you get a stern fatherly talking to while in the other it's all "You sisters are just awesome. It's just a shame all you celestial ladies have to put up with telestial husbands." Jesus wasn't deferential to one gender or the other - he called out imperfections when needed and praised when needed. I don't see the equality these days.

There are plenty of good single Mormon men. I would put it to you that there are plenty out there who are single by no fault of their own. Satan isn't just attacking the men of the church. Just last night my wife was sitting with her extended family talking about how we both work to strengthen each others' weaknesses, neither of us being perfect. I think that is how it ought to be. I'm not perfect, she's not perfect, but we're both doing our best. Blame and keeping score only keep us apart.

Iwritestuff, I'm sorry you disagree with me, I suspect you didn't read the 2 pages of posts which came before mine or you might understand where I was coming from. WherecanIturnforpeace obviously read the posts. She saw the ugly sweeping condemnation of women that was the consensus of the posters. There is a subset of men on this forum who apparently have been so ill-treated by the women in their lives, that they see no value in them and blame them for all the problems in their lives. The consensus among this subset is that women are; Selfish, money grubbing, evil, immoral, cruel. What's most frightening is that they seem to reserve their most strongest contempt for LDS women.

I actually hope our church leaders will stop saying nice things about the women in the church since it seems to be backfiring. Instead of helping them to realize the importance of showing charity and love for their wives, daughters and mothers, it seems to make some men even more resentful and angry.

As a woman in the church, I certainly don't feel that I'm diefied. I hear the conference talks that counsel us to do better, to live more righteous lives, to serve more, to love more to treat others with kindness and selflessness--I hear those talks as counsel for ME, not for others only and not just for the men. I don't understand this vile contempt and ugliness that is regularly heaped on women--especially LDS women, when these types of threads come up on the forum.

And no. I know that marrying an RM doesn't guarantee celestial bliss. The fact that you even ask me that makes me shake my head.... You don't need to tell me 'it takes both sides'--I've been married for almost 32 years. I know what it takes to have a happy, productive marriage. I've also been around the block enough to know that one or both parties in a marriage can destroy it and they can cause serious misery for the other spouse whom they covenanted to love and cherish.

I gave my thoughts on the topic of the 'shortage of mormon men' and as a mother of two older marriageable age LDS girls, I am familiar with some reasons why my daughters haven't found eternal companions yet.

They are looking for men who are committed to living the gospel all the time, not just on Sundays or when it's convenient. They want men who honor their priesthood and live morally clean lives. They want men who want to have children and want to be a leader in their home--righteously lead the family as moral priesthood holders. They want men who will love and cherish them and be monogamously faithful to them--both physically and virtually. They want men who will be good providers (not rich--this often means a man is too caught up in the world) and be good, loving fathers. They want husbands who value the role a mother plays in raising and nurturing a family. They want husbands who will honor them and treat them as equals and truly enjoy spending time with them. This may seem like too high of standards to hope for, but when you are looking for a man to be the father of your children, you need to find the very best. A man who will be a lazy father, who will not care for his family, or is selfish or has bad habits or is not committed to righteous living, can do horrible damage to his children and their own prospects for happy productive lives and strong moral foundations.

If this is too much to ask of LDS men, then I guess we're going to have a lot of righteous single women in the church, because I don't think they are going to lower their standards of what makes a virtuous man and why should they? Why should they marry a man who doesn't love the Lord as much as they do, who doesn't want to live the gospel on the spiritual level that they do? And if there are a lot of good single men, as you suggest, who want the same thing, then it shouldn't be a problem--there should be plenty of devout LDS to pare up with eachother.