BSA announces it is now allowing girls

[Silver]

I'm saying this as an Eagle Scout, former scoutmaster, and daughter of four girls (no boys).

I know there are all sorts of sexual preferences and classifications in this, the modern world, but I'm still trying to get my brain wrapped around how one person could be the daughter of four separate individuals. It doesn't help either that your name is an approximation of the male name Steve. <sarc>

[EdGoble]

There is some truth here in what you say, but I think you are wrong in the sense that the BSA was responding to external threats the best way they knew how, the best way they could in their minds (obviously not according to your perceptions or the way you would have done it, no offense), and they have been caught in catch 22 situations the whole time. I think you are not looking at it from their side and giving them enough credit, and you aren't the least bit charitable to other people's perspectives. You only see it from your side, from the way you see it, with the blinders that you have on, from my point of view. It didn't matter what they did, because they would have suffered consequence either way, leading to their ultimate collapse if they hadn't have acted. And the Church has to respond the best it can too.

Its true that their choices are not what you would have chosen, it seems, had you been at the helm of the scouts organization, but they are rational choices by rational people, right or wrong according to your values. While I agree with your values for the choices that I make for my life, being an LDS person with LDS values, not everybody in the world agrees with us, and does the best they can from the amount of light they have.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bo ... ut-n809836

The Boy Scouts of America announced on Wednesday that girls will soon be allowed to become Cub Scouts and to earn the coveted rank of Eagle Scout, the organization’s highest honor.

"We believe it is critical to evolve how our programs meet the needs of families interested in positive and lifelong experiences for their children," said Michael Surbaugh, chief executive of the Boy Scouts.

The scouting board of directors voted unanimously to make the historic change in an organization that has been primarily for boys since its founding more than 100 years ago.

Um... isn't that why there's this?

http://www.girlscouts.org/

It's always been a different organization, so now they have competition.
I doubt this will affect the Church's program, since the Church isn't forced to change its charter.
But just one more reason for the Church to analyze whether the BSA fits its needs.
And now the BSA will probably have to change its name, no longer being for just "boys."
But with the Church leaving behind the various programs that they are already withdrawing from, and perhaps if they withdraw altogether, the BSA has to think about self preservation.

I think your wording is a bit upsetting no offense. You said they have to think about self preservation. But it's their selfishness that got them into this mess on their own. They shat in the nest, and have to live with it. If you say self preservation it makes it sound like someone did that to them.

I hope I didn't make you feel upset but I had to make a point. The BSA chose to go downhill by throwing away and sacrificing family values to cater to money and special interest groups. That's what started this. And people full of indulgence also were coming along wanting to be paid to be pro scouters and at the same time prey on little kids.

'Self indulgence = not self preservation or self respect'

[tribrac]

It was very kind of the BSA to delay this announcement until after our Stake "Scouting for Funding" drive.

[David13]

It was very kind of the BSA to delay this announcement until after our Stake "Scouting for Funding" drive.

I think that's actually called prescient. Prescient.
dc

[tribrac]

There is some truth here in what you say, but I think you are wrong in the sense that the BSA was responding to external threats the best way they knew how, the best way they could in their minds and they have been caught in catch 22 situations the whole time.

It didn't matter what they did, because they would have suffered consequence either way, leading to their ultimate collapse if they hadn't have acted. And the Church has to respond the best it can too.

You make some excellent points here, I feel like I should add a couple of thoughts. Pay attention people, the BSA was attacked by the PAGANS (people against goodness and normalcy, I hope someone gets that joke) using the Rules for Radicals. They were isolated, ridiculed, and harassed until they felt like they were in catch 22 or believed they had to change their core identity to match the pagan rules in order to survive.

While the BSA was under fire many other organizations breathed a sigh of relief because the attention was not on them. Now that the BSA has been effectively assimilated the pagans will turn their attacks to the next group, then the next, then the next. I'm not smart enough to know if the war is already over, so maybe it is too late, but if we don't learn to stand together with people of faith and values the pagans will overrun all of us one at a time.

[Ezra]

I won't be sending my daughter to Boy Scouts. Won't send my boys either. Made that decision when they opened it to gays and gay leaders.

When you see the "world" creeping in. It's best to withdraw your support.

[Thinker]

... Pay attention people, the BSA was attacked by the PAGANS (people against goodness and normalcy, I hope someone gets that joke) using the Rules for Radicals. They were isolated, ridiculed, and harassed until they felt like they were in catch 22 or believed they had to change their core identity to match the pagan rules in order to survive.

While the BSA was under fire many other organizations breathed a sigh of relief because the attention was not on them. Now that the BSA has been effectively assimilated the pagans will turn their attacks to the next group, then the next, then the next. I'm not smart enough to know if the war is already over, so maybe it is too late, but if we don't learn to stand together with people of faith and values the pagans will overrun all of us one at a time.

I agree & we do need to stand against such bullying now!
However, I think a more appropriate term for such bullies is “insane leftists.”
(I’ve known some who believe in pagan ideas & are good people.)
Jordan Peterson calls such extreme leftists, “PostModernists” who are adopting principles of Marxism - which are based on emotional reasoning and anti-logic. That’s why they force their way rather than attempt to engage in dialogue (which they’d logically lose).

[tribrac]

No, post modernists doesnt work. It sounds like an interior decor theme. Someone needs to come up with a label that sounds menacing.

[h_p]

Its true that their choices are not what you would have chosen, it seems, had you been at the helm of the scouts organization, but they are rational choices by rational people, right or wrong according to your values. While I agree with your values for the choices that I make for my life, being an LDS person with LDS values, not everybody in the world agrees with us, and does the best they can from the amount of light they have.

I don't think anybody here is saying what they're doing is irrational. But people can be rational and still disagree. What I expect, and what I suspect many others here expect, is for people to stand on their principles. The Church associated with the BSA from the beginning because our and their principles were closely aligned. That is obviously no longer the case.

If an organization based on Christian principles is no longer able to exist without compromising those principles, well, that's a very sad commentary on the state of our country, isn't it?

[gardener4life]

There is some truth here in what you say, but I think you are wrong in the sense that the BSA was responding to external threats the best way they knew how, the best way they could in their minds and they have been caught in catch 22 situations the whole time.

It didn't matter what they did, because they would have suffered consequence either way, leading to their ultimate collapse if they hadn't have acted. And the Church has to respond the best it can too.

You make some excellent points here, I feel like I should add a couple of thoughts. Pay attention people, the BSA was attacked by the PAGANS (people against goodness and normalcy, I hope someone gets that joke) using the Rules for Radicals. They were isolated, ridiculed, and harassed until they felt like they were in catch 22 or believed they had to change their core identity to match the pagan rules in order to survive.

While the BSA was under fire many other organizations breathed a sigh of relief because the attention was not on them. Now that the BSA has been effectively assimilated the pagans will turn their attacks to the next group, then the next, then the next. I'm not smart enough to know if the war is already over, so maybe it is too late, but if we don't learn to stand together with people of faith and values the pagans will overrun all of us one at a time.

This is an interesting point. It is true that organizations that are conservative are under fire and siege to change to adopt the rules of Babylon. And it's going to keep happening. Actually we are very lucky that this hasn't targetted us yet. And if it will target BSA it will start to eventually target us soon. It's inevitable. It will probably start out as federal regulation of churches and revising how churches are taxed, then incorporate pushing acceptance of women and gay leaders in just like with what happened to BSA, etc. And you did identity and point out that it is the Pagan groups overrunning. A Pagan is basically someone who doesn't live the teachings of Christ or accept them. So you could say that anyone in the great and spacious building is in this group. Also we recall reading that the people in the great and spacious building had clever illusions and jeering to try to draw people away from going towards the tree of life to feel the love of God. They are getting much cleverer than they used to be at doing this.

Your pagan acronym is humorous but does suit them well actually.

And you and EdGoble did point out that in some ways the BSA were victims.

I can see that both of you have a good heart. You were trying to think of what's good for the youth. That's a good thing. EdGoble was trying to be good and is a good person too. I hope I didn't make Goble feel bad. It's also good that you both had a feeling of charity for a group that wants to help children grow and that shows you are thinking about the future of children. Those are good values.

This is a complicated issue.

However, I do think you have to stick to your guns and be unmoving on some things because once you move then the enemy gets their way. They see that you moved. And then they think OK we got this guy to budge so now we just keep budging it a bit at a time until its unseated. I think we consider other points of view but we sometimes have a need to stay unmoving.

[gardener4life]

Who is going to send a 16 year old girl camping with 16 year old boys.

Another related question, what lds ward is going to send a young woman off with 10 young boys and two adult men?

So now you are either calling two women to go camping with the two men (awkward double date) or you are calling husband and wife teams as ward sciuting leaders.

Exactly! This is what I was trying to point out about coed outdoors groups of youth being a mistake. I'm glad someone else is seeing this. It would invite all kinds of trouble. It's also different from a mutual group with many leaders all there in the same building with a lot of chaperones. People can have a feeling of if something is right or wrong. This is one of those times. But then we sometimes disarm that feeling of wrong or right by letting people argue things to make it not seem so bad. Then we let evil have its way by sacrificing whats right because we let clever propaganda disarm us.

[Z2100]

You know what? I actually kinda welcome this development. Change the name of the organization from Boy Scouts of America to something like American Scouting Assoiation, and you are good to go.

Part of the point of Scouting was to teach essential survival skills, how to develop a good work ethic, how to integrate successfully into society, how to have fun in ways besides playing video games, etc. That is something that can apply to both girls and boys... and frankly, the world need this nowadays. Too many kids are being raised as spoiled brats... and Scouting would be a good way to teach them essential things in a fun and positive manner, regardless of sex or orientation (provided it is run well of course).

Just make sure you add merit badges for caring for kids, painting your nails, as well... etc. XD. Of course, there are downsides to it as well... such as going camping with a mixed sex group, which may prove to be a big thorn in the side given the conditions of morality in the world nowadays.

Ultimately though, I think that this change might very well prove to be a blessing in disguise.

I'm sure the integration of girls into the scouts is going to prepare A LOT of young women for the tribulations (which is a good thing, don't get me wrong). The more our nation's youth become self-reliant, the better we'll be better off when the Great Tribulations begin.

I would like the BSA to change it's name to the "Scouts of America".

[Vision]

It will now be 4 deep leadership, 2 men leaders to keep each others hands off the boys, 2 women leaders to keep the mens hands off the girls.

[Durzan]

As i said, there is good and bad in this decision. I'm choosing to focus on the good instead of the bad.

[Michelle]

I'm saying this as an Eagle Scout, former scoutmaster, and daughter of four girls (no boys).

I know there are all sorts of sexual preferences and classifications in this, the modern world, but I'm still trying to get my brain wrapped around how one person could be the daughter of four separate individuals. It doesn't help either that your name is an approximation of the male name Steve. <sarc>

I literally laughed out loud. Thanks for that.

[Serragon]

In one of my stints as a YM president, we often did campouts and high adventure activities with the YW. It was a great experience for all. I have no issues with YW and YM doing activities together. The problems are just logistical which are easily remedied with a bit of organization.

My issue with this move is that BSA no longer serves any purpose.

At one time, the BSA focused on boys and taught them to be good, honorable, masculine men. That was the entire focus of the organization. it is why it was created.

We now have an organization that stands for nothing in particular. They no longer do what they were created to do. And they won't meet the needs of YW either, as they are ill equipped to teach them to be good, honorable, feminine women.

The organization is changing in hopes of surviving, but doesn't realize that once it began abandoning its principles and charter it was already dead. It has long since been at the stage where it puts pressure on people to support it, instead of existing to support people. it will survive in its decrepit form as long as it can convince members of the church and others with ties and loyalties to continue funding and pretending that this is the BSA of old.

[tribrac]

It will now be 4 deep leadership, 2 men leaders to keep each others hands off the boys, 2 women leaders to keep the mens hands off the girls.

I laughed because I think you were trying to be funny. But, sadly too many really think this. For 5 days a week I am competent, trusted professional. On sundays I am treated like a serial child molestar. I try not to think about it, but when I do it bugs me.

Recently I spend sundays in primary, but I can't have a one on one talk with the primary president lest I do something unseemly. When the sunbeam runs out of sharing time yelling "I gotta pee" I can't follow him to make sure he makes it. If my teaching partner doesn't show up I get to wait in the hall until they find me a substitute partner, or go to priesthood while one woman teaches my class.

Top it off with multiple talks about men and pornography and sometimes I wonder.....

Let me just say I understand why there are fewer active men then women and I worry the message the boys might get is male=evil animal.

[gardener4life]

In one of my stints as a YM president, we often did campouts and high adventure activities with the YW. It was a great experience for all. I have no issues with YW and YM doing activities together. The problems are just logistical which are easily remedied with a bit of organization.

My issue with this move is that BSA no longer serves any purpose.

At one time, the BSA focused on boys and taught them to be good, honorable, masculine men. That was the entire focus of the organization. it is why it was created.

We now have an organization that stands for nothing in particular. They no longer do what they were created to do. And they won't meet the needs of YW either, as they are ill equipped to teach them to be good, honorable, feminine women.

The organization is changing in hopes of surviving, but doesn't realize that once it began abandoning its principles and charter it was already dead. It has long since been at the stage where it puts pressure on people to support it, instead of existing to support people. it will survive in its decrepit form as long as it can convince members of the church and others with ties and loyalties to continue funding and pretending that this is the BSA of old.

The problem is a ward campout or when there are bishopric there is totally different. Have you noticed when girls go to girls camp that tons of chaperones show up? Bishopric is always there when our ward goes and many women leaders. So I don't think its the same.

You did have great points though that they stand for nothing in particular. They also don't do what they were created or meet needs. They only meet special interest money sponsors needs. :S

[oneClimbs]

I'm saying this as an Eagle Scout, former scoutmaster, and daughter of four girls (no boys).

I know there are all sorts of sexual preferences and classifications in this, the modern world, but I'm still trying to get my brain wrapped around how one person could be the daughter of four separate individuals. It doesn't help either that your name is an approximation of the male name Steve. <sarc>

LOL, you need to get out more. I guess Siri thought I said daughter, I had said Father. I’ve never been a good proofreader!

[captainfearnot]

So the race is on to become the first female Eagle scout I presume? What's the fastest someone can make Eagle, like 16 months? So we'll be hearing about her around Feb 2019?

[Joel]

Had girls been in the scouting program I might have been more interested going, I never been into hanging out with a bunch dudes.

[Joel]

There is Actually a Federal Law Aimed at Keeping Boy Scouts All Boys

The Boy Scouts of America (“BSA”) will begin admitting girl scouts. The rule change is the result of a unanimous decision issued by the BSA’s board of directors. A press release explains the group’s motivation and clarifies the new policy:

Today, the Boy Scouts of America Board of Directors unanimously approved to welcome girls into its iconic Cub Scout program and to deliver a Scouting program for older girls that will enable them to advance and earn the highest rank of Eagle Scout. The historic decision comes after years of receiving requests from families and girls, the organization evaluated the results of numerous research efforts, gaining input from current members and leaders, as well as parents and girls who’ve never been involved in Scouting – to understand how to offer families an important additional choice in meeting the character development needs of all their children.

Many are shocked and outraged by the decision, but the move shouldn’t really come as a surprise. The BSA has faced numerous legal and political battles throughout the years over their longstanding ban on female scouts. Most interestingly, a federal law actually protects the Boy Scouts and explicitly permits them to continue operating all boys, which is why they have been able to withstand many of these challenges. However, the law, by no means, prevents the Boy Scouts from including women.

So, let’s take a look at the overall legal landscape and survey a bit of recent history.

The Law Itself

Under Title IX, the law barring sexual discrimination in educational institutions, certain organizations have managed to carve out exemptions which allow them to legally operate as single-sex organizations. The BSA is one of those organizations–along with the YMCA, YWCA, Girl Scouts and Camp Fire Girls. The law reads, in relevant part:

Title IX does not apply to the membership practices of the Young Men’s Christian Association, Young Women’s Christian Association, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Camp Fire Girls. 20 U.S.C. § 1681(a)(6)(B); 34 C.F.R. § 106.14(b). All other programs and activities these organizations are governed by Title IX if they receive any Federal financial assistance.

According to legal scholar Noah Feldman, those exemptions aren’t based on any sort of legal principle, but rather, are simply a legal grant to discriminate based upon a hybrid of tradition and effective lobbying.

“Structurally, the exemption resembles the one that Congress gave Major League Baseball from antitrust laws: It doesn’t really have a principled basis, but reflects some combination of tradition and lobbying power,” Feldman said.

Unicorns, Activate!

There were (very loud) whispers of a legal challenge in 2015. Profiled in the New York Times, a group of five girls from Northern California demanded they be allowed to join the organization. They were denied membership but started their own unofficial offshoot known as the Unicorns. The Unicorns participated in a camporee event where they placed second–beating out dozens of officially-recognized Boy Scout troops. One of the Unicorns, Ella Jacobs, put it bluntly, “We can do the same things boys can — proven from camporee. There’s no really ‘girl things’ or ‘boy things.’”

But it’s unclear whether that rumored “legal challenge” actually went anywhere. There’s no record of the Unicorns ever actually filing a lawsuit. The article notes that the girls appeared before the BSA board and one-by-one dropped off their applications, but it seems like they never made it to a courthouse. Their bid to have the Unicorns become affiliated with the BSA was turned down.

Yeaw v. Boy Scouts of America

At least one lawsuit actually was filed against the BSA over their denial of membership to girls. In 1995, on behalf of Katrina Yeaw, that lawsuit accused the BSA of prohibited gender discrimination for rejecting her membership application. The BSA fought the lawsuit and while on appeal before the California Supreme Court, other decisions involving the BSA determined that the organization had the right to determine its own membership criteria–effectively killed Yeaw’s chances. She withdrew her appeal a few months later, but said:

I was born a girl, and no matter what else I do with my life, that’s what it all comes down to–being a girl. Being born a boy or a girl is not something you can change, but maybe we can still change the laws that make it legal to discriminate against girls.

The Feminist Angle

Earlier this year, the National Organization for Women (“NOW”) issued a statement urging the BSA to allow girls to join. NOW President Terry O’Neill said, at the time:

Women can now hold all combat roles in the military, and women have broken many glass ceilings at the top levels of government, business, academia and entertainment. It’s long past due that girls have equal opportunities in Scouting.

NOW was apparently motivated to issue this statement after learning of another challenge to the BSA’s membership rules–in this instance, by the story of a 15-year-old New York City girl who emulates her brother, an Eagle Scout. The local troop has apparently been nothing but accommodating and supportive, but the larger BSA organization dismissed the criticism at the time.

But now, just a few months later, the BSA’s board is changing its tune. After years of criticism and legal wrangling, it appears tradition has given way to a full-throated embrace of equality.

[gardener4life]

It was very kind of the BSA to delay this announcement until after our Stake "Scouting for Funding" drive.

Just curious do all stakes do the scouting for funding drive at the same time? Our stake just did the scouting for funding drive last week too. That's nice of them to do it right after taking people's money.

[gkearney]

It was very kind of the BSA to delay this announcement until after our Stake "Scouting for Funding" drive.

Just curious do all stakes do the scouting for funding drive at the same time? Our stake just did the scouting for funding drive last week too. That's nice of them to do it right after taking people's money.

No the councils decide when to do it. Mine does theirs in the spring. I was in another that did it in February. It’s a council wide thing not just LDS stakes.

[Vision]

It will now be 4 deep leadership, 2 men leaders to keep each others hands off the boys, 2 women leaders to keep the mens hands off the girls.

I laughed because I think you were trying to be funny. But, sadly too many really think this. For 5 days a week I am competent, trusted professional. On sundays I am treated like a serial child molestar. I try not to think about it, but when I do it bugs me.

Recently I spend sundays in primary, but I can't have a one on one talk with the primary president lest I do something unseemly. When the sunbeam runs out of sharing time yelling "I gotta pee" I can't follow him to make sure he makes it. If my teaching partner doesn't show up I get to wait in the hall until they find me a substitute partner, or go to priesthood while one woman teaches my class.

Top it off with multiple talks about men and pornography and sometimes I wonder.....

Let me just say I understand why there are fewer active men then women and I worry the message the boys might get is male=evil animal.

With sarcasm I intended to make it funny but also to point out how ridiculous scouting is becoming.