Special Mormons

[Seek the Truth]

My experience with Catholics is you can split them in 2. Liberal and Conservative, somewhat aligning with the political spectrum. They have their internal struggles. They take scripture and look at it as overly accepting or harsh and punitive. Along those lines. I can actually relate to that. Sometimes Godhead seems merciful, sometimes cold justice. But whatever.

In America Protestant denominations are irrelevant except Baptist/Evangelical. My experience with them is a uniform doctrine. Fundamental beliefs are very consistent. They believe in the same things. However in the Evangelical world if you don't like your preacher they dump them and move on. I actually can relate to this also.

Mormonism is different. There are "liberal" factions but they have essentially no internal influence. What I do find that is unique to Mormonism is for lack of a better word "apostates". People who literally don't believe fundamental tenets of the religion but persist in attending or being obsessed with it. Keeping up with it, trashing it on the internet and so forth.

I literally don't relate. Again, I think this is uniquely Mormon. I don't know Catholics who think the Pope is a big joke. They might have varied opinions of the pope, but I don't know any of them who think the whole idea of a pope is phony. I know Catholics who believe in evolution, who are ok the molesting, not ok with the molesting, but they have some central belief in the whole project.

I see uniquely in Mormonism NOMs and other flavors who traffic in anti Joseph Smith literature, anti BY literature, anti BRM literature and I don't get it. If I didn't believe in the Book of Mormon I would be out. If I didn't believe in Thomas Monson's calling I would be out. If I thought polygamy was indefensible I would be out. Or whatever.

Yet there are many, quite a few on this website, who remain.

Why?

I don't want a debate on the particulars, rather I would like to understand your rationale from a purely sociological position. I don't find it in any other religion. Maybe JW has it, never looked into it, but I am wondering if anyone has insight. When I run into people like this it is literally like running into a gray alien. LIberal/conservative I can understand. But an apostate who still attends or has an investment in the enterprise blows my mind right out of my head.

[Chip]

Are you talking about me? Nice to meet you.

Personally, I believe the Book of Mormon to be everything Joseph Smith said it was.

Many things have happened since the translation, though, that counter the narrative of ongoing perfection in our church. Not much I can do about any of that, other than be scorned for seeing it.

[Chip]

Apostate JW accidentally invited to give a talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqqt0Y1peUU

He read the scriptures as they are and expounded on what they say about Christ's divinity.... and he got cut off before he was done.

So, is he a lousy disciple of Christ, or is he valiant?

[Seek the Truth]

Who knows. I am wondering about the rationale of such people. For example, if I didn't believe in the bible I would just leave Christianity.

[Chip]

Did you watch that video? I just watched it again, to be sure of what I posted, and it was really neat. Man imparts a smell to religious organizations, just like a dog does to a sofa. I guess it's just the way it is in this world.

[Seek the Truth]

Ok. So what is the rationale of people who don't believe in a religion but stay in the religion.

[Chip]

I think people will stay where they see things as being the best available, even if it's not optimal. That a "perfect" place exists is not an idea that people come up with on their own, unless maybe they're in charge.

[Seek the Truth]

I think there is a difference between not optimal and not believing. But I'm willing to explore the idea.

[Seek the Truth]

That a "perfect" place exists is not an idea that people come up with on their own, unless maybe they're in charge.

This could be a very interesting bit of projection.

[Chip]

That a "perfect" place exists is not an idea that people come up with on their own, unless maybe they're in charge.

This could be a very interesting bit of projection.

That was a little harsh, what I said. Good reflexes, though, on your part. It's very effective to suggest that dissenters are jealous usurpers. It shuts them down pretty well. I suppose there's little point now in saying that I'm not looking for followers or compliance from anyone. I know there's a lot of people "wrong" on the internet, and plenty of positions to defend, but I don't want to do this with you.

[jbalm]

Some are trapped by family members who will throw a holy sh*t fit if they leave the church altogether.

So they vent their frustration on the internet.

[ebenezerarise]

And some just stay to be antagonistic and moralizing, not realizing their own salvation rides on their lame choices of judging others and stubbornly denying God their will. They will have their reward.

[jbalm]

Oooooh. Scary.

[Gage]

Some Mormons see the church as more of a social club. Especially the members that live in heavily populated Mormon areas. They attend church for the social scene and community as not be outcasts. Their kids will not be shun and have friends and they are not shun by other adults. They do not believe much of what the Church teaches, they believe in gay rights, they just more or less go along with the scene in order to keep up a good standing in the community. Today we begin to see what it means to be a TBM. Those that drop out because of the Church's stance on social issues are the very members that just attended because it looked like a good place to hang out. Some stay and quietly keep their opinions to themselves, some stay and are vocal about their disagreements. The time is coming when the majority will leave the church and instead of social pressures to stay in the church, the social pressure will be to leave the church, this is when we will see the few who will hold on til the end.

[Rose Garden]

Because they don't believe there are any better options.
Because they grew up in the church and that's just what they do.
Because they are afraid their spouses will leave them if they leave the church, or afraid of the backlash from their families.

I know it's hard to understand, but if you want to show compassion on them, you have to come to a place of understanding of them. If you pray for understanding, you will receive it.

[captainfearnot]

Mormonism is different.

Why?

Yes, Mormonism is different from the mainline versions of Christianity that you're comparing it to: Catholicism and various Protestant denominations. That's because it's what is known as a high-commitment religion. If you compared it to the other high-commitment religions in Christianity, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unification Church, Christadelphians, etc., you'll find a lot more similarity, especially the apostate dynamic you're talking about.

[eddie]

I have friends who can't stand Mormons, but married a
Mormon and hangs out with we Mormons. They like our children and want theirs to follow the example they set.
On the other hand they criticize and make snide remarks?
What's up with that? I do believe it's the high commitment involved, and what a shame when one can have the true gospel of Jesus Christ with all the blessings and happiness that comes with it.

[creator]

In addition to what other have said above about New Order Mormons (NOMs), some of them remain active in the Church to keep their jobs (employment with the Church). It seems mostly be about either keeping their jobs, or keeping their family happy, or just because they are 'social mormons'.

StT, maybe you haven't been part of any other Church long enough to recognize if there are a variety of types.

[passionflower]

There are plenty of catholics who are fervent believers in the catholic church but think the pope is an anti-pope and an apostate and should be "burned at the stake" so to speak, for being a heretic.
Check out the website, " The Thinking Housewife". And this website will link you to others that are similar.

[lemuel]

Check out the website, " The Thinking Housewife". And this website will link you to others that are similar.

Welp, there goes my evening.

I wonder if there's a bizarro Catholic Freedom Forum out there...

[Seek the Truth]

There are plenty of catholics who are fervent believers in the catholic church but think the pope is an anti-pope and an apostate and should be "burned at the stake" so to speak, for being a heretic.
Check out the website, " The Thinking Housewife". And this website will link you to others that are similar.

Right. But I think that they still believe in the idea of a pope.

[Seek the Truth]

Mormonism is different.

Why?

Yes, Mormonism is different from the mainline versions of Christianity that you're comparing it to: Catholicism and various Protestant denominations. That's because it's what is known as a high-commitment religion. If you compared it to the other high-commitment religions in Christianity, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unification Church, Christadelphians, etc., you'll find a lot more similarity, especially the apostate dynamic you're talking about.

Could be. But still not sure why that would make you dedicate a portion of your life studying and promulgating anti mormonism.

[Seek the Truth]

That a "perfect" place exists is not an idea that people come up with on their own, unless maybe they're in charge.

This could be a very interesting bit of projection.

That was a little harsh, what I said. Good reflexes, though, on your part. It's very effective to suggest that dissenters are jealous usurpers. It shuts them down pretty well. I suppose there's little point now in saying that I'm not looking for followers or compliance from anyone. I know there's a lot of people "wrong" on the internet, and plenty of positions to defend, but I don't want to do this with you.

No problem. I just do wonder though how many "apostates" are so because they got passed over for Bishop or whatever.

[Seek the Truth]

Some are trapped by family members who will throw a holy sh*t fit if they leave the church altogether.

So they vent their frustration on the internet.

I am aware of this dynamic. It is certainly not limited to Mormonism. Families of all stripes around the world like to pass on family traditions of all types.

However it seems like if I were in that position, which I'm not, then I would want to minimize my time invested in a losing enterprise. I don't understand those (not you) who spend a lot of time poring over anti mormon material and the like, obsessing it, dwelling in it, promulgating it and so forth.

Anyone have any ideas?

[passionflower]

Some are trapped by family members who will throw a holy sh*t fit if they leave the church altogether.

So they vent their frustration on the internet.

You can vent your frustrations to me. I'll gladly lend you a listening ear.