Special Mormons

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Seek the Truth
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

I'm not sure. Lots of people leave various religions, and they might tell you why, but VERY few go online and dedicate lots of their spare time to poring over critical literature, studying it, distributing it, dwelling on it. Also, they don't STAY in the religion, for long. This is pretty uniquely Mormon.

But there is the issue of the vendetta.

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harakim
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by harakim »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 7:00 pm
Meili wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 7:33 am Because they don't believe there are any better options.
Because they grew up in the church and that's just what they do.
Because they are afraid their spouses will leave them if they leave the church, or afraid of the backlash from their families.
That doesn't explain why they would invest even more time into something that wasn't true.
I think the ones you're talking about:
1) See it as so close to what is right that they can push it over the edge to perfection
2) Felt wronged that their life was "wasted" in the church and now they want to make sure others don't have their lives "wasted"
3) Aren't in the church but feel like they were somehow wronged and the Church is a group just like the one that wronged them, so like #2

But I think most of the people who go to church and don't totally agree have been burned by trusting men instead of God before and don't want to risk repeating that.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

harakim wrote: October 4th, 2017, 3:03 am I think the ones you're talking about:
1) See it as so close to what is right that they can push it over the edge to perfection
Could be. Seems rare.
2) Felt wronged that their life was "wasted" in the church and now they want to make sure others don't have their lives "wasted"
Could be. But, isn't there some personal responsibility in this? I'm not sure. And, in becoming a critic of the church you are actually wasting more of your life on the church. So I'm not sure this is what I'm looking for.
3) Aren't in the church but feel like they were somehow wronged and the Church is a group just like the one that wronged them, so like #2

But I think most of the people who go to church and don't totally agree have been burned by trusting men instead of God before and don't want to risk repeating that.
My interest is in church members who don't believe in fundamental tenets of Mormonism yet are still invested in it significantly.

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jbalm
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by jbalm »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 5:08 pm For example if I was stuck in the church, for social reason, family reasons, employment reasons, whatever I think I would do the bare minimum and then try to spend the rest of my time doing something else. I can't imagine why you would commit a spare second to a religion or cause you didn't believe in.

The other theory that pops into my mind is vendetta. Which is a whole nother ball of wax.
There is another type...of whom I know at least one...who were "all in" with regard to Mormonism when they learned the church was untrue ( in their view). From what I've seen, this often relates to learning some of the uglier parts of church history (again, in their view).

These people feel hurt and/or angry. They lash out.

Also, from my observation, these folks usually get over it after a while and move on.

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skmo
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by skmo »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 2:56 am Ok. So what is the rationale of people who don't believe in a religion but stay in the religion.
There are quite a few LDS people who like the social structure and community of the church but don't even believe there's a God, at least not as the gospel teaches Him. I've seen that more in AZ and CA than UT, but it's here somewhat as well.

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bbsion
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by bbsion »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am I don't want a debate on the particulars, rather I would like to understand your rationale from a purely sociological position.
Because of this statement, I will leave out any particulars.

Bottom line: People sometimes tend to believe in religions or philosophies that will justify the way they want to live their lives (justify their actions and thoughts).

Rationale means they have reason or logic. Who says they have any rationale? :) You may be asking a question in which you will not be satisfied with any answer provided.

Edit: I did want to add that the "apostates" that I felt was originally referred to in the OP are the ones who avidly fight against the church and some of the basic principles/doctrines, yet they remain in the church anyway.
Last edited by bbsion on October 5th, 2017, 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

skmo wrote: October 4th, 2017, 7:09 am
Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 2:56 am Ok. So what is the rationale of people who don't believe in a religion but stay in the religion.
There are quite a few LDS people who like the social structure and community of the church but don't even believe there's a God, at least not as the gospel teaches Him. I've seen that more in AZ and CA than UT, but it's here somewhat as well.
I guess I should have added, those who don't believe, stay in, and then rail against the church.

I havent seen that in other churches. People typically move on.

Irrelevant
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Irrelevant »

It would be difficult to accurately explain such a position unless one held it. Anything short of personal experience is speculation, which I'm not sure you're really looking for.

I can't speak for those who rail against the Church. However, I think there may be a third group that gets lumped in with them: those who believe in and have a testimony of the Restored Gospel but don't believe everything in the same way that the majority of the membership seems to. I'm not even sure exactly how to explain that, except to point out that since much of the Gospel and how we worship God is left to the individual, there is room for differing opinions and interpretation. Often, these are labeled "apostate" views. As a people, we can be close minded and quick to pass judgement. It is easy for us to see how other people are tares but we don't seem to consider the possibility that we are tares ourselves.

Anyway, I guess my point is that there are others who do have a testimony and look for truth but may not exactly fit the picture of an ideal Mormon, so to speak.

Gage
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Gage »

One of the more common scenarios today is a lifelong faithful member stops believing because of the homosexual issue or polygamy issue but stays in the church because of what others will think. They keep attending to keep their friends.

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captainfearnot
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by captainfearnot »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 7:12 pm I'm not sure. Lots of people leave various religions, and they might tell you why, but VERY few go online and dedicate lots of their spare time to poring over critical literature, studying it, distributing it, dwelling on it.
I take it you're not familiar with Leah Remini's show Aftermath? After two seasons on Scientology, there is talk of expanding the series to take on other high-commitment religions. Jehovah's Witnesses could be the subject of the third season, in fact. And if that works out, she may do others. Maybe even Mormonism.

But obviously the Lutheran church is not on the list because that's not a high-commitment religion. Same with the rest of mainline Christianity. Quitting most churches is like quitting the gym. But quitting Mormonism is more like quitting JW or Scientology. It really does a number on a lot of people.

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Thinker
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Thinker »

BrianM wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 7:10 pm
Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 7:00 pm That doesn't explain why they would invest even more time into something that wasn't true.
It makes sense when considering many of them spent a big part of their lives believing in something that they no longer believe is true. Not everyone can relate to that or begin to understand.
I remember preaching to my sister about coming back to church - I didn't understand why she didn't want it, when she used to have such a strong testimony (even went to 9 hours of church some Sundays to visit friends). One day, a blunt friend told me I was in a cult - but I didn't believe him and researched to prove him wrong but it didn't work that well. I learned some things - and yet, I still realized that the church has some beautiful aspects that I want to maintain in my life - like Family Home Evening, Prayer, Journaling, Serving one another - through callings etc. I've visited many different religious organizations... and I may be partial (having been raised lds), but I have found no better application of spirituality than the LDS church - even with its flaws.

A friend explained, to people considering resigning from the church, how just because you do not agree with everything government does, doesn't make you give up your citizenship and move. Wards become like families and of course families can get on each other's nerves - but you feel a sense of belonging no matter what.

I've often heard, "You are either on the Lord's side or you're not," but I disagree. Nobody is 100% on the Lord's side nor 100% not on the Lord's side - we're a complicated mix of good and bad. The church - which is essentially made up of people - is also not 100% perfect, nor 100% imperfect - but a mix. As one of the GA's said, we do the best with what we've got! :D My approach with the church, politics, and many other things is "take the best and leave the rest." Joseph Smith said something similar, "Search the scriptures, search the prophets, and learn what portion of them belongs to you."

Seek the Truth
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

captainfearnot wrote: October 5th, 2017, 7:55 am
Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 7:12 pm I'm not sure. Lots of people leave various religions, and they might tell you why, but VERY few go online and dedicate lots of their spare time to poring over critical literature, studying it, distributing it, dwelling on it.
I take it you're not familiar with Leah Remini's show Aftermath? After two seasons on Scientology, there is talk of expanding the series to take on other high-commitment religions. Jehovah's Witnesses could be the subject of the third season, in fact. And if that works out, she may do others. Maybe even Mormonism.

But obviously the Lutheran church is not on the list because that's not a high-commitment religion. Same with the rest of mainline Christianity. Quitting most churches is like quitting the gym. But quitting Mormonism is more like quitting JW or Scientology. It really does a number on a lot of people.
Leah Remini is a great example I think of a person with a vendetta. People with vendettas are suspect in my view. Still, she left the church and rails against it, so she would be more in line with run of the mill anti Mormons like the Tanners or whoever.

I am more interested with those who are still involved in some way but spend time attacking the Church. That still seems uniquely Mormon.

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captainfearnot
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by captainfearnot »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 5th, 2017, 6:20 pm I am more interested with those who are still involved in some way but spend time attacking the Church. That still seems uniquely Mormon.
Maybe that aspect is like Judaism? Lots of Jewish people are not actual believers in their religion (many of them are even atheists) but the still identify as Jews because it has become something of an ethnicity in addition to a religion. So they stop believing in the Talmud and maybe even God, but they don't stop being Jewish.

Mormonism is probably too young to be considered an ethnicity yet but there are indications that it could be headed in that direction. Some of the people you're talking about even identify as "ethnic Mormons." Don't believe a word of it but will always consider Mormons to be their "tribe."

Dave62
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Dave62 »

Oh, how I wish that I was righteous enough to become less active. I wish I was good enough to spend the day at the beach instead of church. Oh, how I wish I could be worthy enough to take offence at leader, member or histroy of the church and just pack up and leave. But no, I am condemned as a recidivistic sinner to come to church each week, partake of the Sacrament, and beg for mercy at the Throne of Grace.

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David13
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by David13 »

An ethnic Mormon. Yes, that's what I think I am.
dc

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harakim
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by harakim »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 5th, 2017, 1:02 am
skmo wrote: October 4th, 2017, 7:09 am
Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 2:56 am Ok. So what is the rationale of people who don't believe in a religion but stay in the religion.
There are quite a few LDS people who like the social structure and community of the church but don't even believe there's a God, at least not as the gospel teaches Him. I've seen that more in AZ and CA than UT, but it's here somewhat as well.
I guess I should have added, those who don't believe, stay in, and then rail against the church.

I havent seen that in other churches. People typically move on.
I'm beginning to feel like you are looking for something specific you aren't saying. There are proportionally very few LDS or former LDS people who fit the bill you describe. No more than, say, the Catholic church. eg https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 503680001/ That's 100 cases in Guam alone.

I also see this with children who had republican parents. If you could somehow explain what you are wanting to know and give examples to show that it's a real thing that would be great.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

I think they call them New Order Mormons, there are a number on this site or have been. They are all over the internet.

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harakim
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by harakim »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 5th, 2017, 11:55 pm I think they call them New Order Mormons, there are a number on this site or have been. They are all over the internet.
Can you explain their characteristics?
Active member of the church
Don't believe in even the fundamental tenets of the church
They dedicate some of their time to promoting anti-mormonism
Didn't turn against the church due to feeling overcommitted
Not staying due to family
Not staying because it's what they've always done
Not staying because they believe it's the least bad institution they can belong to
Not staying for the social structure or community
Did not feel like their life was "wasted" by the church nor do they want to make sure others don't have their lives "wasted"

I think this is a very limited number

Seek the Truth
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

harakim wrote: October 6th, 2017, 2:37 am
Can you explain their characteristics?
Active member of the church
Don't believe in even the fundamental tenets of the church
They dedicate some of their time to promoting anti-mormonism
Just these three.
I think this is a very limited number
They appear to dominate the internet.

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icarus
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by icarus »

Oh, the rush of thoughts that come to mind reading this thread.

I've learned that it isn't what we are willing to do for Christ that shows our faith, it is things we're not willing to do that makes the "Abrahamic Sacrifice" difference when asked... that is, if we do as asked. We are all at different locations on and well, 'off' the path and being taught innumerable things. Our best bet is for me to be concerned with my path to Christ while loving others. Not that it's easy... but only because it's the 'things' I won't let go, not actually what others do.

My bishop (and other leaders in my stake) have said, "If it can't be found in the scriptures it's not true."

To that I ask three questions:
1. Who chose the 12 apostles in the New Testament?
2. Who chose the 12 apostles in the Book of Mormon?
3. Who chose the 12 apostles in the 1830's?

3 questions I was asked while in prayerful thought. My wife told me to shut the hell up when I told her after jumping up totally shocked. But she asked.

I'm patiently waiting for the 'point' but while I do so,... I seem to be one of those special Mormons being discussed. *sigh* Yet none of the labels works for me personally.

gardener4life
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by gardener4life »

Chip wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 1:20 am Apostate JW accidentally invited to give a talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqqt0Y1peUU

He read the scriptures as they are and expounded on what they say about Christ's divinity.... and he got cut off before he was done.

So, is he a lousy disciple of Christ, or is he valiant?
Valiant = using courage to build others up not tear them down.
Not Valiant AKA persecuting others = (tearing down others for gain or just because you think you can) * squared
If you want even more math; lousy disciple = tearing down others
lousy disciple = not valiant

gardener4life
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by gardener4life »

icarus wrote: October 31st, 2017, 5:05 pm Oh, the rush of thoughts that come to mind reading this thread.

I've learned that it isn't what we are willing to do for Christ that shows our faith, it is things we're not willing to do that makes the "Abrahamic Sacrifice" difference when asked... that is, if we do as asked. We are all at different locations on and well, 'off' the path and being taught innumerable things. Our best bet is for me to be concerned with my path to Christ while loving others. Not that it's easy... but only because it's the 'things' I won't let go, not actually what others do.

My bishop (and other leaders in my stake) have said, "If it can't be found in the scriptures it's not true."

To that I ask three questions:
1. Who chose the 12 apostles in the New Testament?
2. Who chose the 12 apostles in the Book of Mormon?
3. Who chose the 12 apostles in the 1830's?

3 questions I was asked while in prayerful thought. My wife told me to shut the hell up when I told her after jumping up totally shocked. But she asked.

I'm patiently waiting for the 'point' but while I do so,... I seem to be one of those special Mormons being discussed. *sigh* Yet none of the labels works for me personally.
Jesus chose all 3 groups of apostles. He knows who he will choose in the future and who is on his batting line up. (Small pun; none of them kneel during the anthem either.)

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Rensai
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Rensai »

Other than faith in Christ, our best attempt to follow his commandments/repent, and a belief in the restoration, I don't see a whole lot of things where there isn't some wiggle room for some disagreement or differences of opinion. Our LDS culture is becoming too rigid and conformist and I think the attitude the OP shows reflects that.
“[Unlike the Latter-day Saints] Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled [sic]. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.”
– Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 288)



http://www.mormonmatters.org/2008/01/15 ... ole-earth/

PressingForward
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by PressingForward »

While I am no “True Blue Mormon”, i do have a testimony of the restored Gospel, of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
I believe that the Prophet is used as the voice of our Heavenly Father here on this Earth today.
I don’t believe that just because a general authority says something, writes something, that is printed in any manual or spoken from a pulpit that it is commandments. I grew up listening to Paul H.Dunn, so I’ve learned my lesson. I think it’s ok for a girl to have two earring holes in one ear, or wear legging to girls camp. I think it’s ok that a young man decide that he won’t serve a mission. It’s ok to have a beard. White shirts are not a sign of righteousness. The Word of Wisdom
is not a commandment(but should be followed if you desire a temple recommend). Bishops put their pants on the same way as I do.
I don’t go to church for the social aspect. Very few people interact with my wife and I.
I don’t go to church for my family, they pretty much disowned me for not going on a mission and marrying outside the church.
I go to church to take the sacrament, and serve if they ever ask me too, I’ve been in many Wards where I go with no calling, so far in our latest ward, I’ve gone 6 months without even a Hometeachimg calling(or having one assigned). This does bother me and I work hard to swallow that pride. Kudos to the Relief Society though, my non-member wife has a visiting teacher, our third ward to do that.
I have a great desire to be sealed to my wife and children. Parents and siblings? Not so much. Yes, I have parent issues.
So what is my Label?
Am I an Apostate in your eyes?

justkeepswimming
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by justkeepswimming »

I love this question. I too am fascinated by the full spectrum Mormonism provides, from the ultra devout to the exed or resigned. We have them all in our religion:)

There's no one answer. Some are too insecure in what they are trying to replace Mormonism with so they stay with one foot in one out. Some are held very much hostage by spouses or parents. My closest friend just doesn't believe. He's not a sinner in my opinion because he doesn't believe in our sins. But if he leaves the church his wife will divorce him. That's a hostage situation IMO.

Every person has a different story and deserves to be heard. If I were you I would just ask some of the people you are talking about. I know my friend feels very ostracized at his ward because everyone is afraid of what he'll say. He'd love to just talk to someone, not put doubts in their heads.
Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am My experience with Catholics is you can split them in 2. Liberal and Conservative, somewhat aligning with the political spectrum. They have their internal struggles. They take scripture and look at it as overly accepting or harsh and punitive. Along those lines. I can actually relate to that. Sometimes Godhead seems merciful, sometimes cold justice. But whatever.

In America Protestant denominations are irrelevant except Baptist/Evangelical. My experience with them is a uniform doctrine. Fundamental beliefs are very consistent. They believe in the same things. However in the Evangelical world if you don't like your preacher they dump them and move on. I actually can relate to this also.

Mormonism is different. There are "liberal" factions but they have essentially no internal influence. What I do find that is unique to Mormonism is for lack of a better word "apostates". People who literally don't believe fundamental tenets of the religion but persist in attending or being obsessed with it. Keeping up with it, trashing it on the internet and so forth.

I literally don't relate. Again, I think this is uniquely Mormon. I don't know Catholics who think the Pope is a big joke. They might have varied opinions of the pope, but I don't know any of them who think the whole idea of a pope is phony. I know Catholics who believe in evolution, who are ok the molesting, not ok with the molesting, but they have some central belief in the whole project.

I see uniquely in Mormonism NOMs and other flavors who traffic in anti Joseph Smith literature, anti BY literature, anti BRM literature and I don't get it. If I didn't believe in the Book of Mormon I would be out. If I didn't believe in Thomas Monson's calling I would be out. If I thought polygamy was indefensible I would be out. Or whatever.

Yet there are many, quite a few on this website, who remain.

Why?

I don't want a debate on the particulars, rather I would like to understand your rationale from a purely sociological position. I don't find it in any other religion. Maybe JW has it, never looked into it, but I am wondering if anyone has insight. When I run into people like this it is literally like running into a gray alien. LIberal/conservative I can understand. But an apostate who still attends or has an investment in the enterprise blows my mind right out of my head.

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