Special Mormons

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gardener4life
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by gardener4life »

Chip wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 1:20 am Apostate JW accidentally invited to give a talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqqt0Y1peUU

He read the scriptures as they are and expounded on what they say about Christ's divinity.... and he got cut off before he was done.

So, is he a lousy disciple of Christ, or is he valiant?
Valiant = using courage to build others up not tear them down.
Not Valiant AKA persecuting others = (tearing down others for gain or just because you think you can) * squared
If you want even more math; lousy disciple = tearing down others
lousy disciple = not valiant

gardener4life
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Posts: 1690

Re: Special Mormons

Post by gardener4life »

icarus wrote: October 31st, 2017, 5:05 pm Oh, the rush of thoughts that come to mind reading this thread.

I've learned that it isn't what we are willing to do for Christ that shows our faith, it is things we're not willing to do that makes the "Abrahamic Sacrifice" difference when asked... that is, if we do as asked. We are all at different locations on and well, 'off' the path and being taught innumerable things. Our best bet is for me to be concerned with my path to Christ while loving others. Not that it's easy... but only because it's the 'things' I won't let go, not actually what others do.

My bishop (and other leaders in my stake) have said, "If it can't be found in the scriptures it's not true."

To that I ask three questions:
1. Who chose the 12 apostles in the New Testament?
2. Who chose the 12 apostles in the Book of Mormon?
3. Who chose the 12 apostles in the 1830's?

3 questions I was asked while in prayerful thought. My wife told me to shut the hell up when I told her after jumping up totally shocked. But she asked.

I'm patiently waiting for the 'point' but while I do so,... I seem to be one of those special Mormons being discussed. *sigh* Yet none of the labels works for me personally.
Jesus chose all 3 groups of apostles. He knows who he will choose in the future and who is on his batting line up. (Small pun; none of them kneel during the anthem either.)

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Rensai
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Rensai »

Other than faith in Christ, our best attempt to follow his commandments/repent, and a belief in the restoration, I don't see a whole lot of things where there isn't some wiggle room for some disagreement or differences of opinion. Our LDS culture is becoming too rigid and conformist and I think the attitude the OP shows reflects that.
“[Unlike the Latter-day Saints] Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled [sic]. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.”
– Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 288)



http://www.mormonmatters.org/2008/01/15 ... ole-earth/

PressingForward
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Posts: 703

Re: Special Mormons

Post by PressingForward »

While I am no “True Blue Mormon”, i do have a testimony of the restored Gospel, of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
I believe that the Prophet is used as the voice of our Heavenly Father here on this Earth today.
I don’t believe that just because a general authority says something, writes something, that is printed in any manual or spoken from a pulpit that it is commandments. I grew up listening to Paul H.Dunn, so I’ve learned my lesson. I think it’s ok for a girl to have two earring holes in one ear, or wear legging to girls camp. I think it’s ok that a young man decide that he won’t serve a mission. It’s ok to have a beard. White shirts are not a sign of righteousness. The Word of Wisdom
is not a commandment(but should be followed if you desire a temple recommend). Bishops put their pants on the same way as I do.
I don’t go to church for the social aspect. Very few people interact with my wife and I.
I don’t go to church for my family, they pretty much disowned me for not going on a mission and marrying outside the church.
I go to church to take the sacrament, and serve if they ever ask me too, I’ve been in many Wards where I go with no calling, so far in our latest ward, I’ve gone 6 months without even a Hometeachimg calling(or having one assigned). This does bother me and I work hard to swallow that pride. Kudos to the Relief Society though, my non-member wife has a visiting teacher, our third ward to do that.
I have a great desire to be sealed to my wife and children. Parents and siblings? Not so much. Yes, I have parent issues.
So what is my Label?
Am I an Apostate in your eyes?

justkeepswimming
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Posts: 104

Re: Special Mormons

Post by justkeepswimming »

I love this question. I too am fascinated by the full spectrum Mormonism provides, from the ultra devout to the exed or resigned. We have them all in our religion:)

There's no one answer. Some are too insecure in what they are trying to replace Mormonism with so they stay with one foot in one out. Some are held very much hostage by spouses or parents. My closest friend just doesn't believe. He's not a sinner in my opinion because he doesn't believe in our sins. But if he leaves the church his wife will divorce him. That's a hostage situation IMO.

Every person has a different story and deserves to be heard. If I were you I would just ask some of the people you are talking about. I know my friend feels very ostracized at his ward because everyone is afraid of what he'll say. He'd love to just talk to someone, not put doubts in their heads.
Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am My experience with Catholics is you can split them in 2. Liberal and Conservative, somewhat aligning with the political spectrum. They have their internal struggles. They take scripture and look at it as overly accepting or harsh and punitive. Along those lines. I can actually relate to that. Sometimes Godhead seems merciful, sometimes cold justice. But whatever.

In America Protestant denominations are irrelevant except Baptist/Evangelical. My experience with them is a uniform doctrine. Fundamental beliefs are very consistent. They believe in the same things. However in the Evangelical world if you don't like your preacher they dump them and move on. I actually can relate to this also.

Mormonism is different. There are "liberal" factions but they have essentially no internal influence. What I do find that is unique to Mormonism is for lack of a better word "apostates". People who literally don't believe fundamental tenets of the religion but persist in attending or being obsessed with it. Keeping up with it, trashing it on the internet and so forth.

I literally don't relate. Again, I think this is uniquely Mormon. I don't know Catholics who think the Pope is a big joke. They might have varied opinions of the pope, but I don't know any of them who think the whole idea of a pope is phony. I know Catholics who believe in evolution, who are ok the molesting, not ok with the molesting, but they have some central belief in the whole project.

I see uniquely in Mormonism NOMs and other flavors who traffic in anti Joseph Smith literature, anti BY literature, anti BRM literature and I don't get it. If I didn't believe in the Book of Mormon I would be out. If I didn't believe in Thomas Monson's calling I would be out. If I thought polygamy was indefensible I would be out. Or whatever.

Yet there are many, quite a few on this website, who remain.

Why?

I don't want a debate on the particulars, rather I would like to understand your rationale from a purely sociological position. I don't find it in any other religion. Maybe JW has it, never looked into it, but I am wondering if anyone has insight. When I run into people like this it is literally like running into a gray alien. LIberal/conservative I can understand. But an apostate who still attends or has an investment in the enterprise blows my mind right out of my head.

djinwa
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by djinwa »

So why do people want to share what they believe is true?

Isn't that what we were taught in church?

Isn't that what we try to do in regard to politics and freedom?

So a person accepts everything they were taught in primary as true, and they share that. Then years later they discover different truths, and they want to share that.

You may call them anti-Mormons, but much of what was once "anti" is now accepted by the church as true.

I see many people who take church teachings very seriously, and have depression because of the guilt of not being worthy, and not complying with all the demands. I once made a list of all the things we are told to do, and it gets ridiculous.

So I like to point out that not all the teachings of the church are right, or at least you don't need to do them all, and you can't do them all.

As many here have pointed out, leaders are human, and we should not take them seriously. Teachings will change over time, or at least past teachings will be downplayed by current leaders. GBH, "I don't know that we teach that"

So I think I do members a favor by lessening their guilt and feelings of unworthiness by helping them understand that leaders are not necessarily inspired. They can think for themselves and choose for themselves and don't have to do everything. I think that is called freedom.

Which is also why I'm on forums such as this, which is supposedly about freedom, but sometimes I wonder.

BTW, we are all on a spectrum of faithfulness. Everyone I know picks and chooses which teachings they will obey. Everybody rejects the gospel to some extent, while many point fingers at others.

There are also different personalities. For many members, their understanding is a mile wide and an inch deep. They go along because they want to belong to a group. They don't take it that seriously. Others have more understanding, and study, and share what they know with others, because they take it seriously. When that study leads to unfavorable information, their personality doesn't change. As before, they want to share it out of duty.

MMbelieve
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Posts: 5072

Re: Special Mormons

Post by MMbelieve »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 2:56 am Ok. So what is the rationale of people who don't believe in a religion but stay in the religion.
The fear of going to hell because at some point they did feel the spirit testify of the truth fullness of the gospel. They stay to do the "works" hoping it will spare their soul and God will have mercy and understanding for the "issues" they have. And I believe that God will have understanding for those who have legitimate concerns because there certainly are some.

or

Expectations from others and not wanting to lose relationships or hurt loved ones. This church is heavy on family and roles and expectations and the culture is pretty strong to not go astray. Some people try to keep face for others.

or

Maybe they stay and act the part because they are still decent people at the core and they know that "Christians" live by a code. They are looking for help or compassion from a group of people who pride themselves on being servicable and charitable and non-judgemental. So if they don't receive those things, then it validates their position and that satisfaction keeps them coming back for more...? Like a sickness I guess.

Our church does have groups...one group is converted and have the gospel as the center of their life- from which they govern their path and govern their life. I believe these people are the backbone and are truly happy with the faith they enjoy.

Many others hope to be truly converted and they do their best.

Others are hypocrites and say one thing but do another. They go through the motions and look the part but are not happy, nor will they likely be there when push comes to shove.

Just some ideas...I really don't know the correct answer and I suppose there are many "correct" answers in this situation. You may have to ask individuals who have chosen this to find out THEIR reason.

MMbelieve
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Posts: 5072

Re: Special Mormons

Post by MMbelieve »

PressingForward wrote: November 1st, 2017, 12:50 pm While I am no “True Blue Mormon”, i do have a testimony of the restored Gospel, of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
I believe that the Prophet is used as the voice of our Heavenly Father here on this Earth today.
I don’t believe that just because a general authority says something, writes something, that is printed in any manual or spoken from a pulpit that it is commandments. I grew up listening to Paul H.Dunn, so I’ve learned my lesson. I think it’s ok for a girl to have two earring holes in one ear, or wear legging to girls camp. I think it’s ok that a young man decide that he won’t serve a mission. It’s ok to have a beard. White shirts are not a sign of righteousness. The Word of Wisdom
is not a commandment(but should be followed if you desire a temple recommend). Bishops put their pants on the same way as I do.
I don’t go to church for the social aspect. Very few people interact with my wife and I.
I don’t go to church for my family, they pretty much disowned me for not going on a mission and marrying outside the church.
I go to church to take the sacrament, and serve if they ever ask me too, I’ve been in many Wards where I go with no calling, so far in our latest ward, I’ve gone 6 months without even a Hometeachimg calling(or having one assigned). This does bother me and I work hard to swallow that pride. Kudos to the Relief Society though, my non-member wife has a visiting teacher, our third ward to do that.
I have a great desire to be sealed to my wife and children. Parents and siblings? Not so much. Yes, I have parent issues.
So what is my Label?
Am I an Apostate in your eyes?
You don't sound like one to me.

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Thinker
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Thinker »

djinwa wrote: November 10th, 2017, 10:33 pm So why do people want to share what they believe is true?

Isn't that what we were taught in church?

Isn't that what we try to do in regard to politics and freedom?

So a person accepts everything they were taught in primary as true, and they share that. Then years later they discover different truths, and they want to share that.

You may call them anti-Mormons, but much of what was once "anti" is now accepted by the church as true.

I see many people who take church teachings very seriously, and have depression because of the guilt of not being worthy, and not complying with all the demands. I once made a list of all the things we are told to do, and it gets ridiculous.

So I like to point out that not all the teachings of the church are right, or at least you don't need to do them all, and you can't do them all.

As many here have pointed out, leaders are human, and we should not take them seriously. Teachings will change over time, or at least past teachings will be downplayed by current leaders. GBH, "I don't know that we teach that"

So I think I do members a favor by lessening their guilt and feelings of unworthiness by helping them understand that leaders are not necessarily inspired. They can think for themselves and choose for themselves and don't have to do everything. I think that is called freedom.

Which is also why I'm on forums such as this, which is supposedly about freedom, but sometimes I wonder.

BTW, we are all on a spectrum of faithfulness. Everyone I know picks and chooses which teachings they will obey. Everybody rejects the gospel to some extent, while many point fingers at others.

There are also different personalities. For many members, their understanding is a mile wide and an inch deep. They go along because they want to belong to a group. They don't take it that seriously. Others have more understanding, and study, and share what they know with others, because they take it seriously. When that study leads to unfavorable information, their personality doesn't change. As before, they want to share it out of duty.
Well put. Does “every member a missionary” only apply to certain truths?
I get the sense that God will give according to how open one is.

I tried to explain to someone who couldn’t see how I could see things as I do...
Imagine you were raised in Islam - your whole life, you were taught to believe in Allah and lived tenants of a good Muslim. Then one day, you studied it out and prayed and realized that it wasn’t what you thought. What if you prayed and knew that some was good but some was evil? Would it be good to go along with evil once you saw it for what it was? But also would it be good to condemn the good aspects - throwing the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak)?

Seek the Truth
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Posts: 3511

Re: Special Mormons

Post by Seek the Truth »

PressingForward wrote: November 1st, 2017, 12:50 pm While I am no “True Blue Mormon”, i do have a testimony of the restored Gospel, of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
I believe that the Prophet is used as the voice of our Heavenly Father here on this Earth today.
I don’t believe that just because a general authority says something, writes something, that is printed in any manual or spoken from a pulpit that it is commandments. I grew up listening to Paul H.Dunn, so I’ve learned my lesson. I think it’s ok for a girl to have two earring holes in one ear, or wear legging to girls camp. I think it’s ok that a young man decide that he won’t serve a mission. It’s ok to have a beard. White shirts are not a sign of righteousness. The Word of Wisdom
is not a commandment(but should be followed if you desire a temple recommend). Bishops put their pants on the same way as I do.
I don’t go to church for the social aspect. Very few people interact with my wife and I.
I don’t go to church for my family, they pretty much disowned me for not going on a mission and marrying outside the church.
I go to church to take the sacrament, and serve if they ever ask me too, I’ve been in many Wards where I go with no calling, so far in our latest ward, I’ve gone 6 months without even a Hometeachimg calling(or having one assigned). This does bother me and I work hard to swallow that pride. Kudos to the Relief Society though, my non-member wife has a visiting teacher, our third ward to do that.
I have a great desire to be sealed to my wife and children. Parents and siblings? Not so much. Yes, I have parent issues.
So what is my Label?
Am I an Apostate in your eyes?
You sound damaged.

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Thinker
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Thinker »

Seek the Truth wrote: March 1st, 2018, 3:09 am
PressingForward wrote: November 1st, 2017, 12:50 pm While I am no “True Blue Mormon”, i do have a testimony of the restored Gospel, of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
I believe that the Prophet is used as the voice of our Heavenly Father here on this Earth today.
I don’t believe that just because a general authority says something, writes something, that is printed in any manual or spoken from a pulpit that it is commandments. I grew up listening to Paul H.Dunn, so I’ve learned my lesson. I think it’s ok for a girl to have two earring holes in one ear, or wear legging to girls camp. I think it’s ok that a young man decide that he won’t serve a mission. It’s ok to have a beard. White shirts are not a sign of righteousness. The Word of Wisdom
is not a commandment(but should be followed if you desire a temple recommend). Bishops put their pants on the same way as I do.
I don’t go to church for the social aspect. Very few people interact with my wife and I.
I don’t go to church for my family, they pretty much disowned me for not going on a mission and marrying outside the church.
I go to church to take the sacrament, and serve if they ever ask me too, I’ve been in many Wards where I go with no calling, so far in our latest ward, I’ve gone 6 months without even a Hometeachimg calling(or having one assigned). This does bother me and I work hard to swallow that pride. Kudos to the Relief Society though, my non-member wife has a visiting teacher, our third ward to do that.
I have a great desire to be sealed to my wife and children. Parents and siblings? Not so much. Yes, I have parent issues.
So what is my Label?
Am I an Apostate in your eyes?
You sound damaged.
That’s not how I understood it. But your response may be why he’d only share such personal things on an anonymous forum like this rather than at church.

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Niemand
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by Niemand »

Seek the Truth wrote: October 3rd, 2017, 1:02 am Mormonism is different. There are "liberal" factions but they have essentially no internal influence.
It's been a bit different in more recent times.
What I do find that is unique to Mormonism is for lack of a better word "apostates". People who literally don't believe fundamental tenets of the religion but persist in attending or being obsessed with it. Keeping up with it, trashing it on the internet and so forth.

Lykos
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Posts: 155

Re: Special Mormons

Post by Lykos »

To the original point:

Apostates who stay in are activists first. They're activists in the other aspects of their life. PTA, HOA, etc. they see everything in the world as being able to be molded to their whims if they organize and advocate and pressure and complain long and loud enough.

From my point of view these apostates have fallen away and now want to twist the church to adopt their new views, and they think theres nothing wrong with it because this is what they do with everything in their life. They consider it to be 'their' church, not the church of Jesus Christ.
Along the way, they lose their testimony and witness, start praying to false gods and Satan answers, and end up only staying "active" because they want to try to destroy it from the inside.

I heard a woman proudly declare that she stays in the church to be an "advocate and activist for gas and trans children" in the church.

I despise these people. I wish they'd stop or leave. They are destroying the 'fruits' of the church.

Lizzy60
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Posts: 8520

Re: Special Mormons

Post by Lizzy60 »

Lykos wrote: April 5th, 2023, 9:14 am
I heard a woman proudly declare that she stays in the church to be an "advocate and activist for gay and trans children" in the church.
This is strongly advocated by the pro-LGBTQ LDS groups, of which there are legion.

They are in your Primaries, YW and YM. They are teaching your children. They share ideas on ways to promote LGBTQ inclusion in the church, just like regular Mormons used to share primary activity days ideas.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

PressingForward wrote: November 1st, 2017, 12:50 pm While I am no “True Blue Mormon”, i do have a testimony of the restored Gospel, of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
I believe that the Prophet is used as the voice of our Heavenly Father here on this Earth today.
I don’t believe that just because a general authority says something, writes something, that is printed in any manual or spoken from a pulpit that it is commandments. I grew up listening to Paul H.Dunn, so I’ve learned my lesson. I think it’s ok for a girl to have two earring holes in one ear, or wear legging to girls camp. I think it’s ok that a young man decide that he won’t serve a mission. It’s ok to have a beard. White shirts are not a sign of righteousness. The Word of Wisdom
is not a commandment(but should be followed if you desire a temple recommend). Bishops put their pants on the same way as I do.
I don’t go to church for the social aspect. Very few people interact with my wife and I.
I don’t go to church for my family, they pretty much disowned me for not going on a mission and marrying outside the church.
I go to church to take the sacrament, and serve if they ever ask me too, I’ve been in many Wards where I go with no calling, so far in our latest ward, I’ve gone 6 months without even a Hometeachimg calling(or having one assigned). This does bother me and I work hard to swallow that pride. Kudos to the Relief Society though, my non-member wife has a visiting teacher, our third ward to do that.
I have a great desire to be sealed to my wife and children. Parents and siblings? Not so much. Yes, I have parent issues.
So what is my Label?
Am I an Apostate in your eyes?
You sound like to me a good family man who thinks for himself, and doesn't like the bull crap.

LDS labels deciding other people's level of connection with heaven and their relationship with deity are judgmental finger pointing and based out of self fear the accuser is doing something THEY shouldn't be. Everybody likes to point fingers and find a reason to make the other guy an Abinidi instead of looking in the mirror.

LDS righteousness labels remind me of him/her/they/them pronoun tags.

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: Special Mormons

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

Lizzy60 wrote: April 5th, 2023, 9:20 am
Lykos wrote: April 5th, 2023, 9:14 am
I heard a woman proudly declare that she stays in the church to be an "advocate and activist for gay and trans children" in the church.
This is strongly advocated by the pro-LGBTQ LDS groups, of which there are legion.

They are in your Primaries, YW and YM. They are teaching your children. They share ideas on ways to promote LGBTQ inclusion in the church, just like regular Mormons used to share primary activity days ideas.
My daughter-in-law's 19yo sister decided she needs to be a boy. I thought since I'm not a member of the church I could talk with her and offer her some information without sounding like it's just church pressure not to go through with it. I thought I could help talk her out of it if I didn't talk to church stuff but real information.

BUT that was during covid when the church started singing that they are fully LGBTQ++++++ on board, and all of a sudden the church looked like a support group to this girl for the first time in her life.

So ya, she's already going through the process now.

What a mind Fk.... Does everyone see yet.... the Monarch mind control programming going on here? This agenda is big and it involves everything going on today, and it was planned before any of us were alive.

We have a skull and bones member leading the church. Skull and bones is an inverted gender club. It's even in their logo. Tranny's in the church.... Running the church.... was planned a long time ago we ALLLLL got played.

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