Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

[Seek the Truth]

I doubt it, he was giving a brief summary.

[shadow]

An elder cannot organize a Church without keys. The point of keys is made very clear in the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith.

You're probably right, but JF Smith disagrees with you.

I suggest a quick study of what President Smith taught. He doesn't disagree with Seek at all.

[Zathura]

Goodness , Underdog you got the whole crew in here going at it. Shadow, A12 , Mark...Gotta say, it's much more enjoyable looking from the outside in.

Love you guys play nice.

[skmo]

Finding directions to exaltation from a Denver Snuffer gathering is like finding tips for a healthy life at the Marlboro factory.

[Mark]

Finding directions to exaltation from a Denver Snuffer gathering is like finding tips for a healthy life at the Marlboro factory.

Haha. That is why I am disengaging on this. Even second hand smoke can cause severe ill health. Snuffer disciples will not change their paradigms until they are led off the cliff. It's pointless to engage them. I tried that with some of my close family and friends when they were hooking their spiritual trains onto Jim Harmston. It wasn't until Harmston showed his true colors of despicable proportions that that they started to question him. Until then he had them in his manipulative trance.

[e-eye2.0]

I actually give Shadow a lot of credit here for his work in digging up this quote from Joseph Smith. Understanding who he is dealing with and the thought process of Snufferism in that Joseph Smith was the last true prophet holding the keys it makes sense to quote him. Now from the LDS prospective by either Joseph Smith or the current handbook the excommunication was just. - Makes more sense to use the one Snuffer's followers believe as the other example probably wouldn't hold water to them.

as for what Snuffer said that would fall under criticism:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Crit ... ch_leaders

You can whittle away as many of his comments as you like but it's obvious there was criticism true or not even Joseph Smith disagreed with what Denver did.

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” - Joseph Smith

This particular quote is cited as follows:

History of the Church, 3:385; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 2, 1839, in Montrose, Iowa; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards.

Therefore, this quote is cited from three sources:
History of the Church by B.H. Roberts;
Wilford Woodruff
Willard Richards

The quote does indeed appear in Source 1, History of the Church, but that's not the original source. History of the Church simply lifted the quote from the other two sources, as follows:

First is Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, where we find the lengthy notes Woodruff took during the meeting in question. Trouble is, Woodruff's Journal completely omits this quote, though it directly (and without interruption) supplies the rest of the sermon used in History of the Church.

The other source is Willard Richards' Pocket Companion, which does contain this quote.

OK, so got that so far? Woodruff omits this paragraph from the sermon. Richards has this paragraph in the middle of the sermon. Woodruff, no. Richards, yes.

Woodruff, who was present at the meeting in question, is considered the most reliable source because he recorded the notes of the meeting while in attendance. But this quote does not appear in that record. The sermon before and after this quote appears there uninterrupted, but the quoted paragraph is completely absent.

Richards' Pocket Companion is actually a collection of material Willard Richards copied from other sources. Therefore, though this material appears there, Richards was not actually present when Joseph gave this sermon, and Richards copied the material from elsewhere, most likely Wilford Woodruff’s journal. As to how the quote in question got into Richards' Pocket Companion while NOT appearing in the original record is a mystery. Nobody knows where it came from. It is therefore hearsay and not a historical record.

We are left to wonder where Richards obtained the quote and why he stuck it in the middle of a sermon he didn’t hear Joseph give. There is no original source that contains this quotation, and Richards was on a mission in England when Joseph was supposed to have said it.
http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-3.html

Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’”

The statement can be found in the Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 367 in an address by Orson Hyde entitled "Punctual Payment of Debts," given at the tabernacle on May 5, 1870 while Hyde was serving as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

In this sermon he chastised the saints for being slow to pay their debts, and encouraged them to get out of debt.

Here are the relevant facts:
Hyde had long association with Joseph Smith as one of the original apostles. He undoubtedly heard Joseph speak on many subjects. Therefore he could have heard Joseph make this statement.
Hyde's relationship with Joseph was rocky. He was twice removed from the Quorum of the Twelve and once excommunicated. He also signed the affidavit against Joseph Smith that resulted in Joseph’s imprisonment in Liberty Jail and contributed to the Mormon War of 1838.
Hyde was 39 years old when Joseph Smith died.
This quote is from a sermon Hyde gave May 5, 1870 at age 65, at least 26 years after Joseph could have said it.
Hyde makes no other statement of source, circumstances when, where and to whom Joseph said it, whether he recorded it in writing, or how he remembers the wording precisely. Thus it is not a historical record, but rather is uncorroborated hearsay.
The quote is placed in the talk seemingly at random, without any context. It certainly does not relate to the topic of paying debts.
But...Hyde was an apostle when he made this statement! In fact he was President of the quorum! Therefore he is trustworthy...right?
Well...Hyde was indeed an apostle at the time he made this statement, however, he was also an apostle when he swore an affidavit against Joseph Smith and the saints that resulted in Joseph’s imprisonment in Liberty Jail. Are you going to accept his affidavit as inspired as well? Position is NOT a reliable indicator of truth.

William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”
viewtopic.php?t=28544

The source is listed as a statement by William G. Nelson, published in the Young Woman’s Journal. This statement was published in 1906, 62 years after the death of Joseph Smith.


William G. Nelson, the source of this statement, was born in Jefferson County, Illinois, June 10, 1831; associated with the Saints in Illinois and in the West, where he served as a ward bishop and a member of the high council at Oxford, Idaho. The facts surrounding this quote are as follows:
Nelson appears to have been in a position as a boy to hear Joseph Smith make this statement in Nauvoo.
Nelson would have been 13 years, 2 weeks, and 3 days old when Joseph Smith was killed.
Nelson published the quote at least 62 years after hearing it, when his age was approximately 75 years.
Nelson makes no other statement of source, circumstances when, where and to whom Joseph said it, whether Nelson recorded it in writing, or how he remembers the wording precisely. It is therefore hearsay, and not a historical record. There is no contemporary collaborating source.
This statement was published in an adolescent periodical magazine among other faith-promoting and folksy stories about many topics. Essentially, the Mormon Seventeen. It is neither doctrine nor scripture.
Some difficulties with what is taught are as follows:
Depending on whose account you read, the majority of the twelve were in open rebellion to Joseph Smith in Kirtland.
The records of the church were recorded by the official church historian, John Whitmer, who took them with him when he left the church, requiring a new history to be written. Therefore to stay with the records of the church at that time would have required staying with Whitmer in Missouri, outside the church.
If the "majority of the twelve" doctrine was openly taught by Joseph Smith, there would have been no leadership succession crisis at Joseph's death. The church members would have known to follow the twelve. But no such thing happened.
Also, if this doctrine were known to Brigham Young at the time of the succession crisis, he could have argued that Joseph taught the members to stay with the majority of the twelve. But Brigham made no such argument.
Nelson could have based his “recollection” on the following quote, published 4 years earlier:

Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy.”

Ezra T. Clark was born in Lawrence, Illinois, November 24, 1823. He died in Farmington, Utah October 17, 1901. Relevant facts are as follows:
Clark appears to have been in a position to hear Joseph Smith make this statement in Nauvoo.
Clark was 20 years old when Joseph died.
This quote is from a testimony Clark gave July 24, 1901 at age 77.
Clark published this statement at least 57 years after hearing it.
Clark makes no other statement of source, circumstances when, where and to whom Joseph said it, whether he recorded it in writing, or how he remembers the wording precisely. It is therefore hearsay and not a historical record. There is no other contemporary collaborating source.
This statement was published in an adolescent periodical magazine among other faith-promoting stories about many topics. It is neither doctrine nor scripture.
Within the same testimony, Clark makes several demonstrably false statements about historical events, as well as statements about the content and timing of Joseph Smith’s last sermon, which Clark claims to have witnessed, thus showing his memory unreliable and at least some quotations of Smith fabricated.http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html

Bravo... Can you see how easy it is to discredit sources and quotes and potential quotes from over 100 years ago. See how easy it is to discredit pretty much everybody by calling their character into place when they are no here to testify. Yet we are left with a similar quote in multiple places.

So how do we know if this statement is true or false? Fruits my friend - fruits. We have seen it over and over through history - Even Laman and Lemuel fell into this trap. This doctrine is eternal as the quote says. So why defend it? Are not Thomas, underdog and all those who follow Snuffer a testimony to the qoute? Would they refute it? Have not all of them disparaged the prophets today and then apostatized from the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints? Have they repented. Don't they admit they left the church?

By the fruits we can see this statement is true. Why would you fight against where it came from if in all reality the truthfulness is apparent? I actually do believe Joseph Smith said it but I wasn't there - I do have an angle that the people of Snuffer don't and that is it has been said by prophets after so it's really not a question to me at all.
So why would you want to debate the quotes? My only guess is that if you are a current member that wants to speak ill of others (leaders) but also want to maintain that you are not an apostate - wolves hate to get exposed.

You didn't respond to the link so I am assuming you agree that Snuffer did indeed preach against the leaders of the church and there is a lot of proof.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Crit ... ch_leaders

I really do hope things turn out better for you than they did for Lemuel in your path for whatever it is you are searching for. I wonder how much Lemuel piggy backed of Laman because it was easy. The characteristics of Lemuel are interesting and the list is lengthy but he had a lot of opportunities to change but lacked the ability to heed the words of the prophet -interesting that you picked Lemuel as a name.

[Thomas]

If you want to make Book of Mormon comparisons like Laman and Lemuel , Get the actors right. Here is the list.

Lehi- preaches church is corrupt. Sees God. Is given a mission to save some people from destruction. Modern equivalent = Denver Snuffer

Nephi- believes Lehi's words. Helps Lehi accomplish his task. Modern equivalent= So called Remnant group.

Laban- holds power in the church. mingles with the brethren of the church and leaders of the Jews. Modern equivalent = Snuffer's Stake President.

Laman and Lemuel. Will not believe Lehi. Claim the Jewish people are righteous. Say Lehi is a fraud. Modern equivalent= Well, I guess those who call Denver a fraud and say the LDS are righteous.

[Arenera]

If you want to make Book of Mormon comparisons like Laman and Lemuel , Get the actors right. Here is the list.

Lehi- preaches church is corrupt. Sees God. Is given a mission to save some people from destruction. Modern equivalent = Denver Snuffer

Nephi- believes Lehi's words. Helps Lehi accomplish his task. Modern equivalent= So called Remnant group.

Laban- holds power in the church. mingles with the brethren of the church and leaders of the Jews. Modern equivalent = Snuffer's Stake President.

Laman and Lemuel. Will not believe Lehi. Claim the Jewish people are righteous. Say Lehi is a fraud. Modern equivalent= Well, I guess those who call Denver a fraud and say the LDS are righteous.

And John Doe is?

[eddie]

This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time! I extend a thank you to the members of The Church of Jesus Christ who stand for truth, for your ability to express your faith in our Prophet and 12 Apostles.
I feel bad for those who have been deceived, even the very elect will be deceived, and as we have seen, they become very bitter toward the truth, willing to follow whatever leads them away from Prophets of God.
Watch and pray, watch and pray!!

[lemuel]

By the fruits we can see this statement is true. Why would you fight against where it came from if in all reality the truthfulness is apparent? I actually do believe Joseph Smith said it but I wasn't there - I do have an angle that the people of Snuffer don't and that is it has been said by prophets after so it's really not a question to me at all.

That's a solid point--if a story of dubious origin is told by an apostle with authority, it automatically becomes true because the speaker says it.

-interesting that you picked Lemuel as a name.

I picked it because I'm a whiny little beeyotch.

[Seek the Truth]

If you want to make Book of Mormon comparisons like Laman and Lemuel , Get the actors right. Here is the list.

Lehi- preaches church is corrupt. Sees God. Is given a mission to save some people from destruction. Modern equivalent = Denver Snuffer

Nephi- believes Lehi's words. Helps Lehi accomplish his task. Modern equivalent= So called Remnant group.

Laban- holds power in the church. mingles with the brethren of the church and leaders of the Jews. Modern equivalent = Snuffer's Stake President.

Laman and Lemuel. Will not believe Lehi. Claim the Jewish people are righteous. Say Lehi is a fraud. Modern equivalent= Well, I guess those who call Denver a fraud and say the LDS are righteous.

But the LDS Church is the true and living Church on the earth. As such, no comparison.

[AI2.0]

An elder cannot organize a Church without keys. The point of keys is made very clear in the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith.

You're probably right, but JF Smith disagrees with you.

It must be that you've misunderstood him, because Joseph F. Smith, a Prophet of the church who once held those keys of Authority, knew and taught that the keys were lost after the deaths of the Apostles--which brought about the apostasy. If we interpret his words as you do, then there would have been no apostasy for certainly there were worthy priesthood holders around. But the keys are held by the Apostles. He explains that, an elder (they hold the melchizedek priesthood which was the point he was making) could keep the church going, but keys would still have to be restored and I assume he's saying that the Lord would use that lone Elder, to restore the keys. I think he assumed the congregation he was speaking to understood this.

I'm sorry, but within the teachings of the LDS church, there is just no room for someone like Denver Snuffer or Warren Jeffs, or James Strang or any other to claim to hold keys when they are already held by the LDS Prophet and Apostles. That is why Snuffer claimed to have wrested the Keys from the 1st Pres. and Apostles--for all his heresies, he does understand and acknowledge the relationship of the keys and priesthood authority.

[lemuel]

An elder cannot organize a Church without keys. The point of keys is made very clear in the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith.

You're probably right, but JF Smith disagrees with you.

It must be that you've misunderstood him, because Joseph F. Smith, a Prophet of the church who once held those keys of Authority, knew and taught that the keys were lost after the deaths of the Apostles--which brought about the apostasy. If we interpret his words as you do, then there would have been no apostasy for certainly there were worthy priesthood holders around. But the keys are held by the Apostles. He explains that, an elder (they hold the melchizedek priesthood which was the point he was making) could keep the church going, but keys would still have to be restored and I assume he's saying that the Lord would use that lone Elder, to restore the keys. I think he assumed the congregation he was speaking to understood this.

I'm sorry, but within the teachings of the LDS church, there is just no room for someone like Denver Snuffer or Warren Jeffs, or James Strang or any other to claim to hold keys when they are already held by the LDS Prophet and Apostles. That is why Snuffer claimed to have wrested the Keys from the 1st Pres. and Apostles--for all his heresies, he does understand and acknowledge the relationship of the keys and priesthood authority.

It's a weird hypothetical for sure that JF Smith mentioned. But the quote is what it is. He certainly could've been wrong.

“If it were necessary … and there was no man left on earth holding the Melchizedek Priesthood, except an elder—that elder, by the inspiration of the Spirit of God and by the direction of the Almighty could proceed, and should proceed, to organize the Church of Jesus Christ in all its perfection, because he holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. But the house of God is a house of order, and while the other officers remain in the Church, we must observe the order of the priesthood, and we must perform ordinances and ordinations strictly in accordance with that order, as it has been established in the Church through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his successors.” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 148.)

I just posted this in another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46674&p=812856#p812856
So hidden assumption in the analysis here is that if the LDS church has gone astray, then it cannot have priesthood. As we say about the protestants, they can't have any priesthood because they're a branch broken off of a dead tree. Therefore, if the LDS church has gone astray, any branch broken off of the LDS church cannot have priesthood, and if the LDS church hasn't gone astray, then any branch broken off is wrong to do so and also cannot have priesthood.

But there are counterexamples. The Jewish church had priesthood until John the Baptist wrested the keys (whatever that means), even though they had been spiritually barren for centuries. Alma had priesthood even though he was Noah's henchman.

So why did Catholicism lose priesthood while Jews and Alma retained it?

I would speculate (and it's only speculation) that priesthood might still be conferred by wicked men if the ordinance is done properly. Otherwise we would have to look through our entire priesthood line of authority and hope none of them were secretly adulterers or apostates else our priesthood is invalid.

So perhaps Noah and the Jews conferred the Aaronic priesthood properly, albeit wickedly, but the Catholics didn't stick to the revealed ordinance. Does anyone know what the Catholic ordinance is for ordaining priests? I suspect it's different from how we do it.

It's an interesting question of whether a man's priesthood exists independent of the Q15. If LDSAnarchist's prophecy is correct about the conference center crashing down killing the Q15 then it wouldn't be a hypothetical--if all 15 died simultaneously, would there still be priesthood among the LDS? Or is it like those vampire movies where all the vampires die when the head vampire is killed? (I'm not saying the Q15 are vampires, just an analogy)

[e-eye2.0]

By the fruits we can see this statement is true. Why would you fight against where it came from if in all reality the truthfulness is apparent? I actually do believe Joseph Smith said it but I wasn't there - I do have an angle that the people of Snuffer don't and that is it has been said by prophets after so it's really not a question to me at all.

That's a solid point--if a story of dubious origin is told by an apostle with authority, it automatically becomes true because the speaker says it.

-interesting that you picked Lemuel as a name.

I picked it because I'm a whiny little beeyotch.

Maybe I didn't explain it well so I am sorry or maybe you didn't understand either way. You have shared that this statement may not be from Joseph Smith so it may not be true - You call the quote "dubious". That's okay, you can call it what you want. I am saying regardless of if Joseph Smith said it or not it's a true statement or you could say "principal". I am also saying because I believe all other prophets in the LDS church are true prophets and others have taught this principle then it's true. I also believe Joseph Smith said it.

I don't know why you chose to argue the truthfulness of the quote or maybe you just like to argue for arguments sake. This quote doesn't hurt a snufferite it's just a solid warning to members of the church. For snufferites you could use the same principle for your church and your prophet. Watch in the coming days and see how many of Denver's members who leave talk ill of him and the other leaders of his church.

[shadow]

It's an interesting question of whether a man's priesthood exists independent of the Q15. If LDSAnarchist's prophecy is correct about the conference center crashing down killing the Q15 then it wouldn't be a hypothetical--if all 15 died simultaneously, would there still be priesthood among the LDS? Or is it like those vampire movies where all the vampires die when the head vampire is killed? (I'm not saying the Q15 are vampires, just an analogy)

I'm not sure what his prophecy is but I don't put much stock into those things. If I remember correctly. President Hinckley said the Conference Center would last into the Millennium. Besides, the 15 don't attend conference together, there's always at least one assigned to be elsewhere. From what I understand, they sometimes are all together at the Temple.

The Priesthood exists independent of the 15 but the keys do not. If they all died suddenly, Prophets of old would have to come back and restore those keys just like they did with Joseph Smith, even tho he was already a holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood. If keys were had by all Priesthood holders then some yahoo would be out wandering the Cemeteries resurrecting people. But even President Monson doesn't hold that key, neither did Joseph.

[shadow]

If you want to make Book of Mormon comparisons like Laman and Lemuel , Get the actors right. Here is the list.

Lehi- preaches church is corrupt. Sees God. Is given a mission to save some people from destruction. Modern equivalent = Denver Snuffer

Nephi- believes Lehi's words. Helps Lehi accomplish his task. Modern equivalent= So called Remnant group.

Laban- holds power in the church. mingles with the brethren of the church and leaders of the Jews. Modern equivalent = Snuffer's Stake President.

Laman and Lemuel. Will not believe Lehi. Claim the Jewish people are righteous. Say Lehi is a fraud. Modern equivalent= Well, I guess those who call Denver a fraud and say the LDS are righteous.

Your comparisons don't hold up. Jeremiah described Jerusalem pretty well at the time Lehi left and it doesn't describe the church today at all.

[Chris]

Live Stream

In case you missed the ad in the LA Times and couldn't make it.

You have lost your way. How can you fall for this stuff. You obviously know nothing about Joseph Smith and His prophecies about the destinies of this church. Not some apostate Snuffer. Mormon 8: 33

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

[underdog]

Live Stream

In case you missed the ad in the LA Times and couldn't make it.

You have lost your way. How can you fall for this stuff. You obviously know nothing about Joseph Smith and His prophecies about the destinies of this church. Not some apostate Snuffer. Mormon 8: 33

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

I quoted scriptures and gave irrefutable examples of how people in the church get gain. You gave no rebuttal, other than actually TO CONFIRM the prophet is "racking up the cash with the [unknown salary he draws]." There you have it, right there, you acknowledge the prophet (but it's also the General Authorities and mission presidents) who are paid.

If you're not aware, the president of the Church not only gets paid his undisclosed salary/perks/insurance/housing, but he legally owns 100% of Church property. Yep...tithing, buildings, sacred funds for the poor, investments, etc. are all his! Back during Heber Grant's tenure, the Church was changed to a Corporation Sole. See the articles of incorporation here. So that makes TSM one of the wealthiest men in the history of the world and one of the top handful of wealthy people today. He's worth tens of billions of dollars. Maybe $100 billion, or 300 billion? Who knows? We the members are kept in the dark. Zero transparency. Wonder why? Perhaps TSM, with that gold and silver that he's been legally given (and kept secret from the membership), is taking care of his friends? We can't know for sure, but common sense and history and the axiom of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely tell us that corruption is unquestionably off the charts -- and the signs and symptoms are EVERYWHERE. And if you refuse to yield to common sense, then you must at least acknowledge that the temptation to become corrupt is present. Do you acknowledge this?

Or will you deny? Will you honestly deny that if you were legally given billions of dollars and had complete secrecy regarding whom you gave a portion of your billions to, that you wouldn't even be tempted to give money to friends and family? Temptation doesn't exist in your world? I assume you will acknowledge temptation does exist in your world and in TSM's. And if you do, you must question the wisdom in giving one man such power and wealth, completely unchecked by the secrecy of the finances. And if you begin to question this wisdom, then you are beginning to THINK and exit the mind control you are currently in.

The truth cannot be escaped. The logic is so flawless. That's why Seek the Truth, Shadow, you, and all of you TBM's here, cannot stand against the facts I bring. The logic and truth of things does not allow you room to wiggle out. The simple line of questioning above proves this point. You guys paint yourselves into corners and then act like you don't have wet paint to walk across. Ignoring the wet paint and your footprints on the floor does your eternal salvation no favors.

I invite you to get off your foundation built upon men, and step upon the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Why not give up your idolatry willingly, and turn about and face Christ? Don't be deceived any further.

TSM and the Church hides in darkness just as we have no clue how the Federal Reserve private banking cartel spends our nation's money. The private banking cartel reigns with blood and horror, just as Satan promises in the temple. You oppose them, and your country gets invaded. Or you get a "lone gunman" shooting you in broad daylight, or in a public theater

I've brought facts, Chris. Your foundation is on unbelief (belief in things you think are true, but are false). I echo the sentiment of Nephi from Helaman 9:

24 And because I have done this (shown you evidence of apostasy), ye say that I have [made a "stupid argument"]; yea, because I showed unto you this [evidence] ye are angry with me, and seek to [ridicule me and regard my message as naught].

25 And now behold, I [can] show unto you [more evidences], and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.

If you want to be brought into the light, accept and acknowledge the facts I've already shared with you.

[Teancum]

I would invite all to look at the posts in this thread. See if you can find those with thorns and thistles pricking you and others as you read. When you have done so, then you may understand that there will be no figs found therein or any other good fruit.

By their fruits ye may know them.

[mirkwood]

The vitriol is strong in this thread.

[Chris]

You have lost your way. How can you fall for this stuff. You obviously know nothing about Joseph Smith and His prophecies about the destinies of this church. Not some apostate Snuffer. Mormon 8: 33

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

I quoted scriptures and gave irrefutable examples of how people in the church get gain. You gave no rebuttal, other than actually TO CONFIRM the prophet is "racking up the cash with the [unknown salary he draws]." There you have it, right there, you acknowledge the prophet (but it's also the General Authorities and mission presidents) who are paid.

If you're not aware, the president of the Church not only gets paid his undisclosed salary/perks/insurance/housing, but he legally owns 100% of Church property. Yep...tithing, buildings, sacred funds for the poor, investments, etc. are all his! Back during Heber Grant's tenure, the Church was changed to a Corporation Sole. See the articles of incorporation here. So that makes TSM one of the wealthiest men in the history of the world and one of the top handful of wealthy people today. He's worth tens of billions of dollars. Maybe $100 billion, or 300 billion? Who knows? We the members are kept in the dark. Zero transparency. Wonder why? Perhaps TSM, with that gold and silver that he's been legally given (and kept secret from the membership), is taking care of his friends? We can't know for sure, but common sense and history and the axiom of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely tell us that corruption is unquestionably off the charts -- and the signs and symptoms are EVERYWHERE. And if you refuse to yield to common sense, then you must at least acknowledge that the temptation to become corrupt is present. Do you acknowledge this?

Or will you deny? Will you honestly deny that if you were legally given billions of dollars and had complete secrecy regarding whom you gave a portion of your billions to, that you wouldn't even be tempted to give money to friends and family? Temptation doesn't exist in your world? I assume you will acknowledge temptation does exist in your world and in TSM's. And if you do, you must question the wisdom in giving one man such power and wealth, completely unchecked by the secrecy of the finances. And if you begin to question this wisdom, then you are beginning to THINK and exit the mind control you are currently in.

The truth cannot be escaped. The logic is so flawless. That's why Seek the Truth, Shadow, you, and all of you TBM's here, cannot stand against the facts I bring. The logic and truth of things does not allow you room to wiggle out. The simple line of questioning above proves this point. You guys paint yourselves into corners and then act like you don't have wet paint to walk across. Ignoring the wet paint and your footprints on the floor does your eternal salvation no favors.

I invite you to get off your foundation built upon men, and step upon the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Why not give up your idolatry willingly, and turn about and face Christ? Don't be deceived any further.

TSM and the Church hides in darkness just as we have no clue how the Federal Reserve private banking cartel spends our nation's money. The private banking cartel reigns with blood and horror, just as Satan promises in the temple. You oppose them, and your country gets invaded. Or you get a "lone gunman" shooting you in broad daylight, or in a public theater

I've brought facts, Chris. Your foundation is on unbelief (belief in things you think are true, but are false). I echo the sentiment of Nephi from Helaman 9:

24 And because I have done this (shown you evidence of apostasy), ye say that I have [made a "stupid argument"]; yea, because I showed unto you this [evidence] ye are angry with me, and seek to [ridicule me and regard my message as naught].

25 And now behold, I [can] show unto you [more evidences], and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.

If you want to be brought into the light, accept and acknowledge the facts I've already shared with you.

Wow you are crazy. Money is a medium of exchange and it is necessary in this life. Not only for a person, and a family, but also for a church and yes even for employees of the church and the brethren. Whether you like it or not money is necessary. You haven't proven anything except the fact you Pharisee. The only thing that would be troubling with the church would be if they were not wise stewards with the funds. Which they totally are. Parable of the talents. You are just trying to find fault. You act a lot like your brother Judas Criticizing the Lord in how he spends his money.

[Chris]

You have lost your way. How can you fall for this stuff. You obviously know nothing about Joseph Smith and His prophecies about the destinies of this church. Not some apostate Snuffer. Mormon 8: 33

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

I quoted scriptures and gave irrefutable examples of how people in the church get gain. You gave no rebuttal, other than actually TO CONFIRM the prophet is "racking up the cash with the [unknown salary he draws]." There you have it, right there, you acknowledge the prophet (but it's also the General Authorities and mission presidents) who are paid.

If you're not aware, the president of the Church not only gets paid his undisclosed salary/perks/insurance/housing, but he legally owns 100% of Church property. Yep...tithing, buildings, sacred funds for the poor, investments, etc. are all his! Back during Heber Grant's tenure, the Church was changed to a Corporation Sole. See the articles of incorporation here. So that makes TSM one of the wealthiest men in the history of the world and one of the top handful of wealthy people today. He's worth tens of billions of dollars. Maybe $100 billion, or 300 billion? Who knows? We the members are kept in the dark. Zero transparency. Wonder why? Perhaps TSM, with that gold and silver that he's been legally given (and kept secret from the membership), is taking care of his friends? We can't know for sure, but common sense and history and the axiom of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely tell us that corruption is unquestionably off the charts -- and the signs and symptoms are EVERYWHERE. And if you refuse to yield to common sense, then you must at least acknowledge that the temptation to become corrupt is present. Do you acknowledge this?

Or will you deny? Will you honestly deny that if you were legally given billions of dollars and had complete secrecy regarding whom you gave a portion of your billions to, that you wouldn't even be tempted to give money to friends and family? Temptation doesn't exist in your world? I assume you will acknowledge temptation does exist in your world and in TSM's. And if you do, you must question the wisdom in giving one man such power and wealth, completely unchecked by the secrecy of the finances. And if you begin to question this wisdom, then you are beginning to THINK and exit the mind control you are currently in.

The truth cannot be escaped. The logic is so flawless. That's why Seek the Truth, Shadow, you, and all of you TBM's here, cannot stand against the facts I bring. The logic and truth of things does not allow you room to wiggle out. The simple line of questioning above proves this point. You guys paint yourselves into corners and then act like you don't have wet paint to walk across. Ignoring the wet paint and your footprints on the floor does your eternal salvation no favors.

I invite you to get off your foundation built upon men, and step upon the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Why not give up your idolatry willingly, and turn about and face Christ? Don't be deceived any further.

TSM and the Church hides in darkness just as we have no clue how the Federal Reserve private banking cartel spends our nation's money. The private banking cartel reigns with blood and horror, just as Satan promises in the temple. You oppose them, and your country gets invaded. Or you get a "lone gunman" shooting you in broad daylight, or in a public theater

I've brought facts, Chris. Your foundation is on unbelief (belief in things you think are true, but are false). I echo the sentiment of Nephi from Helaman 9:

24 And because I have done this (shown you evidence of apostasy), ye say that I have [made a "stupid argument"]; yea, because I showed unto you this [evidence] ye are angry with me, and seek to [ridicule me and regard my message as naught].

25 And now behold, I [can] show unto you [more evidences], and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.

If you want to be brought into the light, accept and acknowledge the facts I've already shared with you.

And yes I actually did know that how the church is structured and it doesn't bother me a bit, in fact it brings me a lot of peace and comfort knowing it will always be in good hands. Also I don't have a problem at all with the "secrecy" in which the money is spent. I think that again is another positive. The only people who would care and nit pick it would be apostates, so why detail it? So yes I think they should keep it going exactly how it is. I have had many blessing in this life as a result of the church and not just the superficial ones you may think I as a lame member of the church may have received. I have had and received the 2nd comforter and much more. All these things are possible only because of my membership in the church, not in spite of it.

[underdog]

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

I quoted scriptures and gave irrefutable examples of how people in the church get gain. You gave no rebuttal, other than actually TO CONFIRM the prophet is "racking up the cash with the [unknown salary he draws]." There you have it, right there, you acknowledge the prophet (but it's also the General Authorities and mission presidents) who are paid.

If you're not aware, the president of the Church not only gets paid his undisclosed salary/perks/insurance/housing, but he legally owns 100% of Church property. Yep...tithing, buildings, sacred funds for the poor, investments, etc. are all his! Back during Heber Grant's tenure, the Church was changed to a Corporation Sole. See the articles of incorporation here. So that makes TSM one of the wealthiest men in the history of the world and one of the top handful of wealthy people today. He's worth tens of billions of dollars. Maybe $100 billion, or 300 billion? Who knows? We the members are kept in the dark. Zero transparency. Wonder why? Perhaps TSM, with that gold and silver that he's been legally given (and kept secret from the membership), is taking care of his friends? We can't know for sure, but common sense and history and the axiom of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely tell us that corruption is unquestionably off the charts -- and the signs and symptoms are EVERYWHERE. And if you refuse to yield to common sense, then you must at least acknowledge that the temptation to become corrupt is present. Do you acknowledge this?

Or will you deny? Will you honestly deny that if you were legally given billions of dollars and had complete secrecy regarding whom you gave a portion of your billions to, that you wouldn't even be tempted to give money to friends and family? Temptation doesn't exist in your world? I assume you will acknowledge temptation does exist in your world and in TSM's. And if you do, you must question the wisdom in giving one man such power and wealth, completely unchecked by the secrecy of the finances. And if you begin to question this wisdom, then you are beginning to THINK and exit the mind control you are currently in.

The truth cannot be escaped. The logic is so flawless. That's why Seek the Truth, Shadow, you, and all of you TBM's here, cannot stand against the facts I bring. The logic and truth of things does not allow you room to wiggle out. The simple line of questioning above proves this point. You guys paint yourselves into corners and then act like you don't have wet paint to walk across. Ignoring the wet paint and your footprints on the floor does your eternal salvation no favors.

I invite you to get off your foundation built upon men, and step upon the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Why not give up your idolatry willingly, and turn about and face Christ? Don't be deceived any further.

TSM and the Church hides in darkness just as we have no clue how the Federal Reserve private banking cartel spends our nation's money. The private banking cartel reigns with blood and horror, just as Satan promises in the temple. You oppose them, and your country gets invaded. Or you get a "lone gunman" shooting you in broad daylight, or in a public theater

I've brought facts, Chris. Your foundation is on unbelief (belief in things you think are true, but are false). I echo the sentiment of Nephi from Helaman 9:

24 And because I have done this (shown you evidence of apostasy), ye say that I have [made a "stupid argument"]; yea, because I showed unto you this [evidence] ye are angry with me, and seek to [ridicule me and regard my message as naught].

25 And now behold, I [can] show unto you [more evidences], and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.

If you want to be brought into the light, accept and acknowledge the facts I've already shared with you.

And yes I actually did know that how the church is structured and it doesn't bother me a bit, in fact it brings me a lot of peace and comfort knowing it will always be in good hands. Also I don't have a problem at all with the "secrecy" in which the money is spent. I think that again is another positive. The only people who would care and nit pick it would be apostates, so why detail it? So yes I think they should keep it going exactly how it is. I have had many blessing in this life as a result of the church and not just the superficial ones you may think I as a lame member of the church may have received. I have had and received the 2nd comforter and much more. All these things are possible only because of my membership in the church, not in spite of it.

I assume you mean "lay" member.

Could you share what you mean by your testimony that you have received the second comforter and much more?

[shadow]

You have lost your way. How can you fall for this stuff. You obviously know nothing about Joseph Smith and His prophecies about the destinies of this church. Not some apostate Snuffer. Mormon 8: 33

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

I quoted scriptures and gave irrefutable examples of how people in the church get gain. You gave no rebuttal, other than actually TO CONFIRM the prophet is "racking up the cash with the [unknown salary he draws]." There you have it, right there, you acknowledge the prophet (but it's also the General Authorities and mission presidents) who are paid.

If you're not aware, the president of the Church not only gets paid his undisclosed salary/perks/insurance/housing, but he legally owns 100% of Church property. Yep...tithing, buildings, sacred funds for the poor, investments, etc. are all his! Back during Heber Grant's tenure, the Church was changed to a Corporation Sole. See the articles of incorporation here. So that makes TSM one of the wealthiest men in the history of the world and one of the top handful of wealthy people today. He's worth tens of billions of dollars. Maybe $100 billion, or 300 billion? Who knows? We the members are kept in the dark. Zero transparency. Wonder why? Perhaps TSM, with that gold and silver that he's been legally given (and kept secret from the membership), is taking care of his friends? We can't know for sure, but common sense and history and the axiom of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely tell us that corruption is unquestionably off the charts -- and the signs and symptoms are EVERYWHERE. And if you refuse to yield to common sense, then you must at least acknowledge that the temptation to become corrupt is present. Do you acknowledge this?

Or will you deny? Will you honestly deny that if you were legally given billions of dollars and had complete secrecy regarding whom you gave a portion of your billions to, that you wouldn't even be tempted to give money to friends and family? Temptation doesn't exist in your world? I assume you will acknowledge temptation does exist in your world and in TSM's. And if you do, you must question the wisdom in giving one man such power and wealth, completely unchecked by the secrecy of the finances. And if you begin to question this wisdom, then you are beginning to THINK and exit the mind control you are currently in.

The truth cannot be escaped. The logic is so flawless. That's why Seek the Truth, Shadow, you, and all of you TBM's here, cannot stand against the facts I bring. The logic and truth of things does not allow you room to wiggle out. The simple line of questioning above proves this point. You guys paint yourselves into corners and then act like you don't have wet paint to walk across. Ignoring the wet paint and your footprints on the floor does your eternal salvation no favors.

I invite you to get off your foundation built upon men, and step upon the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Why not give up your idolatry willingly, and turn about and face Christ? Don't be deceived any further.

TSM and the Church hides in darkness just as we have no clue how the Federal Reserve private banking cartel spends our nation's money. The private banking cartel reigns with blood and horror, just as Satan promises in the temple. You oppose them, and your country gets invaded. Or you get a "lone gunman" shooting you in broad daylight, or in a public theater

I've brought facts, Chris. Your foundation is on unbelief (belief in things you think are true, but are false). I echo the sentiment of Nephi from Helaman 9:

24 And because I have done this (shown you evidence of apostasy), ye say that I have [made a "stupid argument"]; yea, because I showed unto you this [evidence] ye are angry with me, and seek to [ridicule me and regard my message as naught].

25 And now behold, I [can] show unto you [more evidences], and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.

If you want to be brought into the light, accept and acknowledge the facts I've already shared with you.

Do you realize that Joseph Smith was paid by the church and he also caused all the church leaders from the President (himself) to Bishop's and every church leader in between, including patriarch's, to get paid?? Nah, you're a follower of Snuffer, you don't deal in reality. Old Testament Prophets also were paid via their calling and New Testament Apostles were also paid by the church. These are facts that Snufferites close their eyes and cover their ears to. Why? Because it would not only invalidate Joseph Smith and the restoration but all of Christianity. Either that or they'd have to admit their gripe with the church today is unfounded. Snufferism is a mental disease and they prove it with every post they make.

[underdog]

Chris:

Here is Mormon 8:33:

• "Built up churches to get gain": Denver makes zero money (in fact he has spent a great deal of money). LDS Church rakes in BILLIONS and gives no transparency of financials. Not even local bishops are transparent! Hide not! Work in the light and not darkness. Who is transfiguring the word of God?

• Where in the scriptures does it say you must get a commitment out of a prospective convert (being interviewed for baptism) to pay tithing to a church? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God to get gain?

• Why are the top leaders getting paid an UNDISCLOSED amount of money? Nephi says, "the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish." Contrast that with Alma or King Benjamin who labored with their own hands and took not one red cent/senine in compensation. Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?

• Year-end tithing settlement is about to come up in your ward. Ever think about WHY the Church instituted this annual accounting? From a financial standpoint, from the perspective of "GETTING GAIN," it makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say? The "take", the financial "haul", from members trying to get current with their contributions lest they lose their temple recommend must be in the hundreds of millions in Nov and Dec of each year. And you quote this verse to attack Denver? Seriously? There are wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people building up churches to get gain. Above is evidence of this with the LDS Church, and you point the finger at one man who is guilty of none of this? Turning things upside down? Who's transfiguring the holy word of God?

I could go on and on about the Church "getting gain," and yet you, Chris, (apparently) ignorantly talk about "falling for this stuff," while being incapable of pointing out what "stuff" is so repugnant to the gospel? Please share what is objectionable.

You realize how stupid of a argument this is don't you. I cant believe you snufferites and how lame your arguments are. I would hope to God and am very grateful the church is ran the way it is. It shows just how inspired it is. There is no one getting gain in the church. Oh wait are you going to claim the prophet is racking up the cash with the 120,000 a year he gets......???? You do realize all of these men could make 10 times that if they wanted too in the business world.You guys are so pathetic that you use the book of Mormon on your way down, peddling the doctrine of satan on the way down quoting scripture. You must make him very proud. Yet you deny all of the truth and doctrine in D&C and the BOM that show just how real and true this church is. You deny the prophet and the hundreds of prophecies about the future of this church. Shame on you for violating your covenants and turning your back on God.

I quoted scriptures and gave irrefutable examples of how people in the church get gain. You gave no rebuttal, other than actually TO CONFIRM the prophet is "racking up the cash with the [unknown salary he draws]." There you have it, right there, you acknowledge the prophet (but it's also the General Authorities and mission presidents) who are paid.

If you're not aware, the president of the Church not only gets paid his undisclosed salary/perks/insurance/housing, but he legally owns 100% of Church property. Yep...tithing, buildings, sacred funds for the poor, investments, etc. are all his! Back during Heber Grant's tenure, the Church was changed to a Corporation Sole. See the articles of incorporation here. So that makes TSM one of the wealthiest men in the history of the world and one of the top handful of wealthy people today. He's worth tens of billions of dollars. Maybe $100 billion, or 300 billion? Who knows? We the members are kept in the dark. Zero transparency. Wonder why? Perhaps TSM, with that gold and silver that he's been legally given (and kept secret from the membership), is taking care of his friends? We can't know for sure, but common sense and history and the axiom of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely tell us that corruption is unquestionably off the charts -- and the signs and symptoms are EVERYWHERE. And if you refuse to yield to common sense, then you must at least acknowledge that the temptation to become corrupt is present. Do you acknowledge this?

Or will you deny? Will you honestly deny that if you were legally given billions of dollars and had complete secrecy regarding whom you gave a portion of your billions to, that you wouldn't even be tempted to give money to friends and family? Temptation doesn't exist in your world? I assume you will acknowledge temptation does exist in your world and in TSM's. And if you do, you must question the wisdom in giving one man such power and wealth, completely unchecked by the secrecy of the finances. And if you begin to question this wisdom, then you are beginning to THINK and exit the mind control you are currently in.

The truth cannot be escaped. The logic is so flawless. That's why Seek the Truth, Shadow, you, and all of you TBM's here, cannot stand against the facts I bring. The logic and truth of things does not allow you room to wiggle out. The simple line of questioning above proves this point. You guys paint yourselves into corners and then act like you don't have wet paint to walk across. Ignoring the wet paint and your footprints on the floor does your eternal salvation no favors.

I invite you to get off your foundation built upon men, and step upon the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. Why not give up your idolatry willingly, and turn about and face Christ? Don't be deceived any further.

TSM and the Church hides in darkness just as we have no clue how the Federal Reserve private banking cartel spends our nation's money. The private banking cartel reigns with blood and horror, just as Satan promises in the temple. You oppose them, and your country gets invaded. Or you get a "lone gunman" shooting you in broad daylight, or in a public theater

I've brought facts, Chris. Your foundation is on unbelief (belief in things you think are true, but are false). I echo the sentiment of Nephi from Helaman 9:

24 And because I have done this (shown you evidence of apostasy), ye say that I have [made a "stupid argument"]; yea, because I showed unto you this [evidence] ye are angry with me, and seek to [ridicule me and regard my message as naught].

25 And now behold, I [can] show unto you [more evidences], and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.

If you want to be brought into the light, accept and acknowledge the facts I've already shared with you.

Do you realize that Joseph Smith was paid by the church and he also caused all the church leaders from the President (himself) to Bishop's and every church leader in between, including patriarch's, to get paid?? Nah, you're a follower of Snuffer, you don't deal in reality. Old Testament Prophets also were paid via their calling and New Testament Apostles were also paid by the church. These are facts that Snufferites close their eyes and cover their ears to. Why? Because it would not only invalidate Joseph Smith and the restoration but all of Christianity. Either that or they'd have to admit their gripe with the church today is unfounded. Snufferism is a mental disease and they prove it with every post they make.

Joseph wasn't perfect. I'm not even saying he "sinned" by asking for money. I do believe it's a bad precedent. It's dangerous for OBVIOUS, common sense reasons. Do you know he had asked for a salary for himself and for Oliver, but the high council voted against it? He wasn't above the law. He was subject to it. There are plenty of scriptures in the BoM (the most correct of any book on earth, if you will recall) that state clearly that the prophets labored with their own hands and didn't take one red senine from the people! I know you know this, but you cover it up. Yes, you covered it up in your paragraph above. Don't you feel guilty about omitting these scriptures?

You do realize you are arguing for a paid, professional clergy. Ever heard the term, "Slippery slope"? Might want to be careful. You argue against transparency, like Chris does above. Chris LOVES being kept in the dark. He glories in his ignorance, because it's better that way. He KNOWS the Brethren won't lead him or the Church astray, as you believe too. Good luck with that.

You don't even realize that I have you defending things like paid ministries! Look at what you've become.

You argue FOR polygamy. You argue that blacks should have been denied the priesthood. You excuse the whoredoms of Brigham. You excuse sin after sin and after sin. Look what you've become.

I respect your right to defend whoredoms. I'm just pointing out that you ARE defending them.