Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

[underdog]

From General Conference this weekend. Some very dangerous teachings were taught. The Brethren are closing ranks!

President Henry B. Eyring
First Counselor in the First Presidency

The Lord’s leadership of His Church requires great and steady faith from all who serve Him on earth. …

It takes faith to do so. It takes even greater faith to believe that the Lord has called imperfect human servants to lead you. …

Your leader in the Lord’s Church may seem to you weak and human or may appear to you strong and inspired. The fact is that every leader is a mixture of those traits and more. What helps servants of the Lord who are called to lead us is when we try to see them as the Lord did when He called them.

The Lord sees His servants perfectly. He sees their potential and their future. He knows how their very nature can be changed. He also knows how they can be changed by their experiences with the people they will lead. …

There is a thread that binds us to the Lord in our service. It runs from wherever we are called to serve in the kingdom, up through those called to preside over us in the priesthood, and to the prophet, who is bound to the Lord. It takes faith and humility to serve in the place to which we are called, to trust that the Lord called us and those who preside over us, and to sustain them with full faith.

Eyring attempts to make the case that the members have the problem by not having enough faith when a leader fails in some way. He conflates apostolic leaders with leaders at the local level (where his advice would better apply; like supporting an EQ pres or new bishop, or Deacons Quorum president), with "prophets, seers, and revelators. He attempts to lower the bar of what a prophetic leader looks like, while creating a guilt complex for members who question the leaders at the top. He shifts responsibilities to the members, and off the shoulders of the P, S, and R's.

Elder M. Russell Ballard
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. …

Do not listen to those who have not been ordained or set apart to their Church calling and are acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.
Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. …
In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. …

Clearly Elder Ballard is discouraging members from listening to people OUTSIDE the hierarchy. This is a form of oppression. Truth is found everywhere. He's asking members to look exclusively to "today's apostles and prophets", when THEY DO NOT EVEN CLAIM TO BE SENT! This is so fraudulent. They want people to believe they are "sent" but don't actually claim to be. They do claim to have the office or title of "apostles", but exhibit none of the fruit that true messengers have.

Elder Ian S. Ardern
Of the Seventy

We live in a day in which misinformation about our beliefs abounds. …

[The warnings] of our prophets and apostles remind us that we must do all we can to fortify ourselves spiritually against words of opposition and deception. …

Neil A. Anderson

There is a treasure chest of heavenly direction awaiting your discovery in the messages of general conference. The test for each of us is how we respond to what we hear, what we read, and what we feel. …

I promise that as you hear the voice of the Lord to you in the teachings of this general conference and then act on those promptings, you bring heaven’s hand upon you, and your life and the lives of those around you will be blessed.

Elder Anderson is setting up their new curriculum which is to listen to THEM and study THEIR words from General Conference in 2018, in RS and Priesthood.

Tad R. Callister
Sunday School General President

The Book of Mormon is not only the keystone of our religion, but it can also become the keystone of our testimonies so that when trials or unanswered questions confront us, it can hold our testimonies securely in place. This book is the one weight on the scales of truth that exceeds the combined weight of all the critics’ arguments. Why? Because if it is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and this is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, regardless of any historical or other arguments to the contrary.

I bear my solemn testimony that the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. It is God’s compelling witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, and the absolute truth of this Church.

Elder Callister teaches an utter falsehood here. The truth of the BoM has NOTHING to do with "the absolute truth of this Church." If you stop and think for a moment, the Spirit testifies (from Moroni's promise in Moroni 10) that "These things (the BoM)" are true. That means Jesus is the Christ, and of course the translator was sent by God. "The Church" is nebulous in meaning. The leaders want us to unite the Church with Christ. They cannot be united. For one, what is "the Church"? The vagueness plays into the hands of those would would innocently or deviously seek to deceive you.

Elder Joni L. Koch
Of the Seventy

In the Church, in spite of our differences, the Lord expects us to be one!

It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them. …

… I testify that as we decide to be one with the members and leaders of the Church—both when we’re assembled apart—we will also feel more perfectly united with our Heavenly Father and the Savior.

Elder Koch is teaching idolatry here. There should be no test ever to see if we are united with THEM. My gosh. Wake up TBM's. Are you kidding me! We should not seek to be one with leaders of the Church. On the other hand if we seek to be one with God, and the leaders also seek to be one with God, and that is accomplished, then we will be one with each other. However, there is a definite order here. The order is that first we become one with God. We follow Christ. HE is our exemplar. He is the Light. He is the Life. He is the Way. We worship Christ. We want our will to be one with His. Elder Koch's teaching is evil because he is testifying that we should "be one with leaders of the Church". This is the type of teaching that is epidemic. It plays on people's ASSUMPTION that the leaders are "one with the Lord." That is it! The leaders are taking advantage of the goodwill and naivety (if you will) of the members. The leaders encourage and WANT the members to ASSUME the leaders are unified with Christ. Now the problem is, if a member says, "Wait a second, the fact that you're saying you 'can't lead us astray' is fishy. You're human. You CAN err. So you can mislead us," then according to Elder Eyring above, we are not exercising enough faith because we question their weaknesses. So Eyring is saying the leaders are imperfect and have weaknesses but CAN'T lead us astray. What!?!?! It's very slick. The deception is so good, so clever, so effective.



I haven't even listened to or read all the talks, but in about 70% of the talks I HAVE looked at, there is reason to be concerned that we are being led astray. The Brethren are doubling and tripling down on their "can't lead us astray" mantra. That's all they have now. It's one doctrine really. "We have the keys. We can't lead you astray. We are the chosen ones. Trust us and nobody else!"

[underdog]

Thanks for the new link. I'll take a look. Looks credible after the first few paragraphs.

That makes sense what you're saying about apostasy creeping in during Joseph's administration. Same thing happened in the first century after Christ died and was resurrected. Signs of apostasy were everywhere. Whenever a true prophet is on the earth, you better bet there will be continued attempts to lead the flock to apostatize. The parable in DC 101:43-62 predicts apostasy in Joseph's day.

This fact -- that apostasy is a clear and present danger to a group of true believers -- is all the more reason to appreciate the equality and balance of power that DC 107 set up. Joseph made a regular stake in Zion (the high council of that stake) equal in authority to the First Presidency and to the Q of the 12 and to the 70. This was to guard against apostasy. Centralized power usually leads to captivity, as Mosiah, Alma, and the Brother of Jared warned. In other words, centralized power leads to the abuse of the people. Denver shows how this happened beginning with B.Y.

Furthermore, in DC 107, even the president of the church could be tried by other quorums for apostasy or whatever transgression he would be accused of. And yet, DC 107 is completely ignored today. It's no secret in our TRADITION that the apostles call the shots in today's Church. If a stake president or high council tried to stand up to the Q of the 12's authority, they would be summarily released from their callings or flat out excommunicated. Denver's stake president was released because he wouldn't excommunicate Denver and in fact gave him a temple recommend just before being released. The new SP did the bidding of Elder Nelson. This abuse of power is what Joseph had in mind when DC 107 was given. DC 107 would thwart such abuse.

Brother Mark, you frequently bring up false prophets, or groups or persons that proved to be frauds, like Harmston and others. Will you answer this question? Don't you think that this would be Satan's plan? To send as many false prophets, if you will, to deceived the people, so that when a true prophet appears, the status quo people could say, "Oh boy, here we go again, Here's another one in a long line of frauds!" This is actually what history shows to be the case. There are forgeries everywhere, but the existence of frauds doesn't mean the "next guy" will also be a fraud. Would you please note your agreement to this point? Thank you.

Not interested in playing your possibility games here. The Lord told me thru the Holy Spirit many years ago that Harmston was a complete deceived fraud. He communicated that same answer to me about Snuffer when I began to read his blogs and books that gained interest among many on this site years ago. The Spirit has testified to me that TCOJCOLDS is in fact the real deal. It holds the valid Priesthood keys necessary to administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. The Spirit has already testified that Snuffer is a deceived imposter who holds no valid keys and has no authority. Of that I am sure. That's all I need to know about Snuffer to reject him outright. He is a dead end just waiting to implode. You will do likewise if you continue in your path.

Thank you for your concern and sharing your testimony.

It is very interesting that testimonies are borne in favor of each side.

Through all of this, I have come to really appreciate the inspired, genius, truth-teaching "perfect way to judge" given by Mormon here in Moroni 7:

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

Based on the above, "cut to the chase" approach by Mormon, I've made the case that the Church has strayed from the teachings of Christ, it practices unrighteous dominion, and is even now frantically (as of this past weekend) attempting to persuade members to not trust folks outside the hierarchy. Whereas Joseph said Mormonism is ALL truth, meaning, we will take truth no matter the source. But the Brethren are closing ranks and saying listen only to them. I'll put together some quotes from this weekend. Give me a bit to review the talks.

So in your world being an accuser of the Brethren is coming from the light of Christ? It just shows everyone what spirit you are responding to. I want no part of that spirit. It cometh of evil. You just are to steeped in it to tell the difference.

Mark,

Jesus commands us to discern (or "accuse", as you say) false prophets. He commands us to distinguish between false and true prophets, between false and true Christs, between tares and wheat. Without "accusing" (a pejorative word you use in place of distinguishing and discerning), we cannot keep the commandment to follow the Light.

Obviously we have to judge righteously and choose the right. We have to choose light over darkness.

So let me reword exactly what you said above with correct meanings:

So in your world being one who distinguishes between true and false messengers is coming from the light of Christ?

Yes, that is the world I live in. We SHOULD do that.

It just shows everyone what spirit you are responding to. I want no part of that spirit. It cometh of evil. You just are to steeped in it to tell the difference.

So yes, I agree with the first part, it does show the spirit I'm responding to, which is the Spirit of Christ which commands us to discern between good and evil and to choose the good. Are you saying you want no part of the Spirit of Christ, which requires us to discern good from evil? Yes, that means we must "accuse" as you say with indignation. What this means is that we just judge right from wrong. That means we are saying that the thing we reject in favor of Christ is wrong!! That makes us all an "accuser." Or just might you have some wrong thinking going on here? I think you mean well, but perhaps it is you who are steeped in an unbelief so you can't see the truth that "we must discern", which means we must say, "This is a tare, and this is wheat". Your ENTIRE objection to what I am saying is based on your belief that "the Brethren" are true messengers, despite them doing things which deny the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If I have rephrased your statement incorrectly, please tell me how I erred. I seek to be one with Christ and if you can show me how what I said it not at one with Christ, then I'd like to know. I have showed you how what you're saying is not one with Christ. If I was not accurate, please explain why.

[Seek the Truth]

I find it inconsistent that Snufferites demand that the president of the church at all times must be like Moses or Joseph Smith in their capacity yet they teach that we don't need a Moses to stand before the face of the Lord since everyone should seek this blessing.

Game set match.

[Seek the Truth]

Until all come to a unity of faith, and everybody knows the Lord, a legal administrator, like Moses or Joseph or Denver, is needed.

This is a change in Snufferite doctrine. As such, it destroys Snufferism. Again. Denver doesn't even claim to be a legal administrator.

[Onsdag]

From General Conference this weekend. Some very dangerous teachings were taught. The Brethren are closing ranks!
<snip>

Actually, I beg to differ. Having received a witness from God I know that they have taught us truth - the truths that God would teach us personally were He here. In stark contrast it is your own words that are "very dangerous teachings." You words, a reflection of your inner thoughts, do not have the light of Christ in them. And I beg you in all soberness to repent and mend your ways before it is everlastingly too late.

[shadow]

The Brethren are doubling and tripling down on their "can't lead us astray" mantra. That's all they have now. It's one doctrine really. "We have the keys. We can't lead you astray. We are the chosen ones. Trust us and nobody else!"

The brethren are simply teaching what Joseph Smith taught.

"The Presidents or Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church, are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven, and the power and privilege of the Melchizedek Priesthood. It is also the privilege of any officer in this Church to obtain revelations, so far as relates to his particular calling and duty in the Church.”

“We do not consider ourselves bound to receive any revelation from any one man or woman without his being legally constituted and ordained to that authority, and giving sufficient proof of it."

“It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”

It must suck to always be contrary to the man you still claim to call a Prophet. I doubt you even know a fraction of what Joseph Smith taught- only the stuff Snuffer quotes.

[shadow]

Would Snufferites call this idolatry? Indeed they would-
“Like those who held up the hands of Moses [see Exodus 17:8–13], so let us hold up the hands of those who are appointed to direct the affairs of the Kingdom, so that they may be strengthened, and be enabled to prosecute their great designs, and be instrumental in effecting the great work of the last days.” -Joseph Smith

[AI2.0]

From General Conference this weekend. Some very dangerous teachings were taught. The Brethren are closing ranks!

President Henry B. Eyring
First Counselor in the First Presidency

The Lord’s leadership of His Church requires great and steady faith from all who serve Him on earth. …

It takes faith to do so. It takes even greater faith to believe that the Lord has called imperfect human servants to lead you. …

Your leader in the Lord’s Church may seem to you weak and human or may appear to you strong and inspired. The fact is that every leader is a mixture of those traits and more. What helps servants of the Lord who are called to lead us is when we try to see them as the Lord did when He called them.

The Lord sees His servants perfectly. He sees their potential and their future. He knows how their very nature can be changed. He also knows how they can be changed by their experiences with the people they will lead. …

There is a thread that binds us to the Lord in our service. It runs from wherever we are called to serve in the kingdom, up through those called to preside over us in the priesthood, and to the prophet, who is bound to the Lord. It takes faith and humility to serve in the place to which we are called, to trust that the Lord called us and those who preside over us, and to sustain them with full faith.

Eyring attempts to make the case that the members have the problem by not having enough faith when a leader fails in some way. He conflates apostolic leaders with leaders at the local level (where his advice would better apply; like supporting an EQ pres or new bishop, or Deacons Quorum president), with "prophets, seers, and revelators. He attempts to lower the bar of what a prophetic leader looks like, while creating a guilt complex for members who question the leaders at the top. He shifts responsibilities to the members, and off the shoulders of the P, S, and R's.

Elder M. Russell Ballard
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. …

Do not listen to those who have not been ordained or set apart to their Church calling and are acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.
Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand.
Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. …
In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. …

Clearly Elder Ballard is discouraging members from listening to people OUTSIDE the hierarchy. This is a form of oppression. Truth is found everywhere. He's asking members to look exclusively to "today's apostles and prophets", when THEY DO NOT EVEN CLAIM TO BE SENT! This is so fraudulent. They want people to believe they are "sent" but don't actually claim to be. They do claim to have the office or title of "apostles", but exhibit none of the fruit that true messengers have.

Elder Ian S. Ardern
Of the Seventy

We live in a day in which misinformation about our beliefs abounds. …

[The warnings] of our prophets and apostles remind us that we must do all we can to fortify ourselves spiritually against words of opposition and deception. …

Neil A. Anderson

There is a treasure chest of heavenly direction awaiting your discovery in the messages of general conference. The test for each of us is how we respond to what we hear, what we read, and what we feel. …

I promise that as you hear the voice of the Lord to you in the teachings of this general conference and then act on those promptings, you bring heaven’s hand upon you, and your life and the lives of those around you will be blessed.

Elder Anderson is setting up their new curriculum which is to listen to THEM and study THEIR words from General Conference in 2018, in RS and Priesthood.

Tad R. Callister
Sunday School General President

The Book of Mormon is not only the keystone of our religion, but it can also become the keystone of our testimonies so that when trials or unanswered questions confront us, it can hold our testimonies securely in place. This book is the one weight on the scales of truth that exceeds the combined weight of all the critics’ arguments. Why? Because if it is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and this is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, regardless of any historical or other arguments to the contrary.

I bear my solemn testimony that the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. It is God’s compelling witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, and the absolute truth of this Church.

Elder Callister teaches an utter falsehood here. The truth of the BoM has NOTHING to do with "the absolute truth of this Church." If you stop and think for a moment, the Spirit testifies (from Moroni's promise in Moroni 10) that "These things (the BoM)" are true. That means Jesus is the Christ, and of course the translator was sent by God. "The Church" is nebulous in meaning. The leaders want us to unite the Church with Christ. They cannot be united. For one, what is "the Church"? The vagueness plays into the hands of those would would innocently or deviously seek to deceive you.

Elder Joni L. Koch
Of the Seventy

In the Church, in spite of our differences, the Lord expects us to be one!

It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them. …

… I testify that as we decide to be one with the members and leaders of the Church—both when we’re assembled apart—we will also feel more perfectly united with our Heavenly Father and the Savior.

Elder Koch is teaching idolatry here. There should be no test ever to see if we are united with THEM. My gosh. Wake up TBM's. Are you kidding me! We should not seek to be one with leaders of the Church. On the other hand if we seek to be one with God, and the leaders also seek to be one with God, and that is accomplished, then we will be one with each other. However, there is a definite order here. The order is that first we become one with God. We follow Christ. HE is our exemplar. He is the Light. He is the Life. He is the Way. We worship Christ. We want our will to be one with His. Elder Koch's teaching is evil because he is testifying that we should "be one with leaders of the Church". This is the type of teaching that is epidemic. It plays on people's ASSUMPTION that the leaders are "one with the Lord." That is it! The leaders are taking advantage of the goodwill and naivety (if you will) of the members. The leaders encourage and WANT the members to ASSUME the leaders are unified with Christ. Now the problem is, if a member says, "Wait a second, the fact that you're saying you 'can't lead us astray' is fishy. You're human. You CAN err. So you can mislead us," then according to Elder Eyring above, we are not exercising enough faith because we question their weaknesses. So Eyring is saying the leaders are imperfect and have weaknesses but CAN'T lead us astray. What!?!?! It's very slick. The deception is so good, so clever, so effective.



I haven't even listened to or read all the talks, but in about 70% of the talks I HAVE looked at, there is reason to be concerned that we are being led astray. The Brethren are doubling and tripling down on their "can't lead us astray" mantra. That's all they have now. It's one doctrine really. "We have the keys. We can't lead you astray. We are the chosen ones. Trust us and nobody else!"

Underdog, I hardly know what to say. I'm so sorry for you that you are so lost to what is truth.

None of these men taught false doctrine, in fact, they taught very pertinent truths, expressly for our day and time. You know the Lord warned that in the Last days (our day) there would arise false prophets, false christs, false teachers and if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived by them. Why are you ignoring his clear warning??!! The sad truth is that is IT possible to deceive the 'very elect'--We're seeing this today! We saw them deceived and turn against Joseph Smith and fight against him and now we see good, honorable well-meaning members such as yourself fight against the Lord's anointed prophets today, BECAUSE you are following a false prophet who has been deceived by lying spirits--just as was prophesied and warned of.

You have joined them as an 'accuser of the brethren' as well. As I read you accuse Elder Ballard of being guilty of 'oppression' the impression of Korihor came to my mind. He did the same thing, accusing Alma and the other church leaders of oppressing the members with their teachings.

We've been warned an forewarned that we can be led away by deceivers and yet, you seem oblivious to this possibility! Denver Snuffer is a false prophet (his writings , his actions prove it) and his influence leads those who listen to him, away from Christ and his true ordinances and teachings. Like Mark, I read Snuffer's writings, I didn't reject him outright, but prayed for guidance and truth to be revealed-- I gave him a chance to make his case, but he couldn't because the spirit taught me exactly where and how he was teaching false doctrine and twisting scriptures. Because of the spirit's illumination, I received a clear witness that Denver Snuffer was deceived. And, his actions and continued teachings have only confirmed this understanding. Since then, I've seen how inspired our leaders are to warn us against listening to these people from outside the Lord's duly called and anointed servants. There is no question in my mind that these people represent a very real danger of peeling away even the very elect(though often disgruntled or disappointed) who are not listening to the warnings of true 'watchmen on the tower'.

I shared a talk in Gospel discussions area from a couple of years ago, titled 'Our Very Survival'=== I believe the author is absolutely right, that members need to listen to the Lord's servants and not reject them, as you are doing, or the consequences will be dire.

[Seek the Truth]

I've posted D&C 43 countless times, and they just ignore it. D&C 28 says the same thing in the beginning of the section. To accept Snuffer is to reject Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.

[Thomas]

Well, I will have to read your blog some more when I have got some more time but I see you cannot answer Denver's questions. He states there is more than just keys required and asks about the other things given to Joseph. States God has given him some things as well.

[Thomas]

I've posted D&C 43 countless times, and they just ignore it. D&C 28 says the same thing in the beginning of the section. To accept Snuffer is to reject Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.

I guess you don't see that eliminates every leader of the church since Joseph's death.

[underdog]

AI2,

The worst of the above quotes has got to be this:

"It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them."

Am I really off my rocker? Please, any TBM here, please edify me. Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

Honestly I am horrified that TBM's here are not horrified themselves. If you want to motivate me to leave the Church then here is your chance. I honestly am sickened if none of you are able to see how cultish and wicked this teaching is.

[Seek the Truth]

I've posted D&C 43 countless times, and they just ignore it. D&C 28 says the same thing in the beginning of the section. To accept Snuffer is to reject Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.

I guess you don't see that eliminates every leader of the church since Joseph's death.

There are more scriptures that don't. Snufferites require amazing levels of remedial instruction.

But, poor dodge. The point is it blows Snuffer straight out of the water. Again. Again and again and again.

[AI2.0]

Until all come to a unity of faith, and everybody knows the Lord, a legal administrator, like Moses or Joseph or Denver, is needed.

This is a change in Snufferite doctrine. As such, it destroys Snufferism. Again. Denver doesn't even claim to be a legal administrator.

Yes, when Denver Snuffer first came under fire for his preachings, he had no interest at all in being a leader of a movement, he taught that people didn't need any man to teach them, that they should be taught only by the spirit in themselves. Now, he's 'David', and the head of the last, last dispensation, and he is bringing forward 'new' scriptures, new revelations and put forward a document that puts himself as the anionted prophet to lead the world to Zion. Snuffer's taking power to himself should have made it obvious to his followers that he was not what he initially claimed, but just another false prophet trying to lead a break off sect from the Lord's only true church.

[drtanner]

AI2,

The worst of the above quotes has got to be this:

"It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them."

Am I really off my rocker? Please, any TBM here, please edify me. Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

Honestly I am horrified that TBM's here are not horrified themselves. If you want to motivate me to leave the Church then here is your chance. I honestly am sickened if none of you are able to see how cultish and wicked this teaching is.

Joseph actually did this on occasion:

"A story is told of an encounter between the Prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. In the presence of a rather large group of brethren, the Prophet severely chastised Brother Brigham for some failing in his duty. Everyone, I suppose somewhat stunned, waited to see what Brigham’s response would be. After all, Brigham, who later became known as the Lion of the Lord, was no shrinking violet by any means. Brigham slowly rose to his feet, and in words that truly reflected his character and his humility, he simply bowed his head and said, “Joseph, what do you want me to do?” The story goes that sobbing, Joseph ran from the podium, threw his arms around Brigham, and said in effect, “You passed, Brother Brigham, you passed”

To my knowledge I've never heard of a living prophet taking it that far, but It is not hard to see why you find this council difficult.

[underdog]

I've posted D&C 43 countless times, and they just ignore it. D&C 28 says the same thing in the beginning of the section. To accept Snuffer is to reject Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.

I guess you don't see that eliminates every leader of the church since Joseph's death.

Exactly.

It is obvious to me Section 43 is referring to Joseph Smith IN HIS DAY. God's house would be a house of confusion if others were out speaking for the Lord and contradicting each other.

LDS Anarchist, please cast off your unbelief and pray about it. You bring so many gifts of the spirit and could be a great benefit to your fellow man.

[Seek the Truth]

AI2,

The worst of the above quotes has got to be this:

"It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them."

Am I really off my rocker? Please, any TBM here, please edify me. Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

Honestly I am horrified that TBM's here are not horrified themselves. If you want to motivate me to leave the Church then here is your chance. I honestly am sickened if none of you are able to see how cultish and wicked this teaching is.

Yes, you are off your rocker. It is in perfect accord with the teachings of Joseph Smith.

TPJS pg 228 229

You will receive instructions through the order of the Priesthood which God has established, through the medium of those appointed to lead, guide and direct the affairs of the Church in this last dispensation;

Those ordained to preside over and lead you, are authorized to appoint the different officers, as the circumstances shall require.

They are leaders sent to lead us and instruct us in the last dispensation. Such is the teaching of Joseph Smith which you have rejected.

When there is a legal administrator you must obey him or be damned.

John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned.

[Seek the Truth]

I've posted D&C 43 countless times, and they just ignore it. D&C 28 says the same thing in the beginning of the section. To accept Snuffer is to reject Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.

I guess you don't see that eliminates every leader of the church since Joseph's death.

Still ignoring it.

[AI2.0]

AI2,

The worst of the above quotes has got to be this:

"It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them."

Am I really off my rocker? Please, any TBM here, please edify me. Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

Because, we were sent down here to learn to submit--to offer our agency as the only thing we truly have, to God. Just as Jesus Christ submitted to the will of the father, we are asked to submit. And, if you are 'corrected' by your church leaders--those who hold stewardship over you, then part of your test is to humble yourself and accept and repent.



Honestly I am horrified that TBM's here are not horrified themselves. If you want to motivate me to leave the Church then here is your chance. I honestly am sickened if none of you are able to see how cultish and wicked this teaching is.

Underdog, the sad thing is that you are blind to the cultish nature of the Remnant, which you've joined. That's the irony of this, it would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

You seem oblivious to the nature of that 'covenant' you all were asked to make. Do you not see that it asked you to accept everything that Denver Snuffer teaches you? You are following a man just the same as you accuse LDS of following men. The difference? We LDS have our scriptures to admonish us to follow the prophet at the head of our church, and because we believe in apostles, 70's, Bishops, Stake Pres. etc, then we understand the role of delegated authority of divinely called leaders who hold a certain position of stewardship. We also understand clearly the necessity of being guided by the holy ghost to know when our leaders are inspired and speak the Lord's will and our need to follow counsel.

Your cult, called the Remnant, is already changing and evolving. It's clearly built around a man, Denver Snuffer, and his teachings are evolving as he slowly moves into the role of 'prophet' with his pronouncements that the Lord directs him to teach you all what you need to do to create Zion. Can you not see this? Why are you not horrified that you've embraced exactly what Snuffer initially stood against???

Sorry, but there's nothing wrong with believing that the Lord's called his righteous servants to lead and guide his church and his people. It's a sound doctrine and practice--shown time after time in our canon of scriptures. And, their responsibility is to keep the church undefiled by dealing with heresies, immoral and imprudent behavior--so when a member is called in to answer for their actions or behavior, they ought to be humble and repentant, united with them in the common cause of building up the Kingdom of God.

And Underdog, I didn't see you 'horrified' when John Doe was called in to answer the accusations against him in the Women's council. Why were you not upset by that? I'm certain that the expectation was that if John Doe was repentant, he should support the women and their decision and be 'united' with them in trying to protect the Remnant from sinful behavior, right? Why, once again, are you incapable of seeing these supposed unrighteous dominion and oppressive actions when they are on display in your Remnant church?

[Thomas]

Thomas,

I'm not certain that Section 124:45 has such a clear-cut interpretation.

D&C 124:45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

It definitely could be referring to a physical movement. But it could also relate to a spiritual position relating to God. In fact, later in the same section we read,

D&C 124:71 And if they do appropriate any portion of that stock anywhere else, only in that house, without the consent of the stockholder, and do not repay four-fold for the stock which they appropriate anywhere else, only in that house, they shall be accursed, and shall be moved out of their place, saith the Lord God; for I, the Lord, am God, and cannot be mocked in any of these things.

It's the same basic phrase, but in this case most likely did not refer to physically moving.

Also, in another section, we read this:

D&C 87:8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

While the phrasing is a little different, the same general idea seems to be portrayed.

I've also thought a lot about the saints being driven from Nauvoo to Utah. It certainly seems to be a chastening, punishing effort at first glance. The people had built a beautiful city of Nauvoo, were working on a temple, and were prosperous and happy. But they were also surrounded by enemies who hated them. The death of Joseph and Hyrum did not appease them; there were threats of exterminating all of the people. The saints themselves had lost their charismatic, founding leader, and others were vying for the leadership of the church.

How would I have responded when Joseph died? I'm grateful that's not my trial, but it certainly made me ponder long and hard. There were basically three options:
1. Consider the movement dead. Move/stay but renounce affiliation with the church. Try to live my life the best I could based on the light I had received up to that point.
2. Follow one of the candidate leaders who arose other than the Twelve. There were, as has been mentioned elsewhere, other men who seemed to have a claim to the leadership of the church, including Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith III.
3. Follow the Twelve. They claimed that Joseph Smith had given them the keys, and that the Twelve was a quorum equal in authority with the First Presidency.

I believe that the Lord allowed the movement to be a self-selection process among the saints. There may have been chastening, but it was also a purifying and refining opportunity. It was more than 1,200 miles from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City. Utah was desert at the time. How many people do you think would give up everything and move 1,200 miles to a desert unless they had a deep and abiding testimony of the church and that the keys of the kingdom were with the Twelve? I doubt many people went for social reasons. They didn't go for economic reasons. They went because of a deep, abiding, and burning faith.

I think sometimes we devalue the true sacrifice of the early saints in Nauvoo when we think they just blindly followed without a burning testimony of the truth. Blindly following Joseph Smith to Utah? Maybe. He had brought about the Restoration, and I believe there were people who would have followed him anywhere. But Brigham Young and the Twelve? That was a different matter altogether. It was a huge choice, a difficult choice, and I honor those who made it.

Silk, thank you for you well thought out comments. I appreciate your civil tone. For me, I see a pattern of the Lord asking for repentance and asking for compliance with his requirements. It starts out in D&C 84, Sep, 1832. The Lord puts the church under condemnation for not living by the precepts found in the Book of Mormon. Some time just before that, I believe the Lord gave the fullness of the priesthood to some 20 odd people, including Joseph Smith. Then the Lord requires the saints live consecration. They fail to do it. They are driven out of both Missouri and Kirtland. The Lord tells them, it is a result of their failures to obey and because of the fighting amongst themselves. The Lord takes the fullness of the priesthood away from them during this time period.

In 1841, the Lord gives them another chance to regain what they had lost which is the fullness of the priesthood. The church claims to have it now. But the requirements that the Lord set forth in D&C 124 were never met. In addition, the church still does not live by consecration. They do not live by a Celestial law. Nor was the temple ever even close to being finished before Joseph Died. The Lord clearly states that the restoration the fullness must take place in the temple. So the red brick store house were Joseph gave some endowments doesn't cut it.

So you have some big hurdle here for me to overcome. The church claims to have received all these blessings and are able to offer salvation, in the Celestial Kingdom but still have not met the requirements to lift the first condemnation given in 1832. Let alone the requirements to bring people into the Celestial kingdom and receive the fullness of the Priesthood. Why do you think conference talks are saying you need faith to not be healed? It is because non of them have the fullness. But they claim to have it. If they had it they heal anybody.

D&C 88: 22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

This is exactly what Joseph Smith was trying to do is to get people to live a Celestial law so they could receive a Celestial inheritance. So we have failed in all these requirements but act as if we have performed perfectly in doing what the Lord requires. Jesef, has questioned if the condemnation rightly belongs to us. However, the correct question is do the blessings belong to us when we have not done what is required to receive them. The church claims to have received all God offered to the early saints and that the red brick store house was the place this all took place but that ignores the fact that we don't live by the precepts found in the Book of Mormon and we don't abide a Celestial law. For the most part, we live a Telestial law and becase we do will receive a telestial inheritance.

All the apologetics excuses for 124 I have seen so far do not address those issues. They all are pretty lame excuses cause the weight of the evidence shows that the church never repented. So I have to accept the definition that the saints being driven out of Nauvoo was a curse from God.

[underdog]

AI2,

The worst of the above quotes has got to be this:

"It is also likely that we will all experience some correction from our ecclesiastic leaders, which will be a test on how united we are with them."

Am I really off my rocker? Please, any TBM here, please edify me. Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

Honestly I am horrified that TBM's here are not horrified themselves. If you want to motivate me to leave the Church then here is your chance. I honestly am sickened if none of you are able to see how cultish and wicked this teaching is.

Yes, you are off your rocker. It is in perfect accord with the teachings of Joseph Smith.

TPJS pg 228 229

You will receive instructions through the order of the Priesthood which God has established, through the medium of those appointed to lead, guide and direct the affairs of the Church in this last dispensation;

Those ordained to preside over and lead you, are authorized to appoint the different officers, as the circumstances shall require.

They are leaders sent to lead us and instruct us in the last dispensation. Such is the teaching of Joseph Smith which you have rejected.

When there is a legal administrator you must obey him or be damned.

John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned.

Any other takers?

This good brother who truly has proven in his own mind that he can redefine "is" so it doesn't mean "is", has not addressed the question of unity with a leader.

I honestly would like to hear an answer.

Again, my question remains unanswered:

Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

For kicks, and partially to check my sanity, I asked my kid just now who hasn't hit puberty the same question.

I coached him not.

And I quote him:

We should not seek to be united with any church leader not named Jesus because he might be wrong.

Then I asked, Why, what's the danger?

Because that leader could lead us to do something wrong.

Hallelujah! I haven't lost my mind.

Now I would love to see some TBM's here humbly agree with what seems to me to be simple truth, which couldn't even confound a non teenager!

[Mark]

It is crystal clear that both Thomas and underdog are Snufferite trolls with the intent of coming on this site to try and sow seeds of discord and doubt and contention among those who really are practicing Latter Day Saints. Since Brian seems to have no problem allowing them to do so, which frankly I don't really understand since anti LDS bashing used to be off limits here in times past and banished to outer darkness, I recommend that they be ignored and maybe they will start to lose interest and return back to their remnant boards to bash and accuse the LDS church to their hearts content. They are both filled with the spirit of contention and accusation and discussions with them are totally fruitless. What's the point?

[Thomas]

LDS anarchist. It is interesting that you bring up common consent. I would say common consent is no longer present in the LDS church because it is now obtained under threat of punishment. Also the First Presidency of the Church is supposed to be chosen by the body of the Priesthood. That would include the president of the church. Brigham Young pulled a coup on the church and gave all this power to the Apostles, which rightfully belongs to the body.

[lemuel]

I stumbled across a blog by a fellow who really is no friend of the LDS church and frankly disagreed with Snuffers excommunication yet even he lays out the case of excommunication by showing one pointed accusation after another concerning Snuffers interpretations of the so called downfall of the LDS faith and its leadership hierarchy from Snuffers book and I also might ad his blogs he wrote that were even more accusatory toward LDS church leadership from its very beginnings. If you read his words you will begin to see that Snuffer was in open rebellion against church leadership and was accusing them of being in an apostate state since clear back to the time of Joseph's administration. He clearly says that the church and its ordinances were rejected by the Lord. Period. If you read his stuff you will see that Snuffer was subtlety setting himself up to become the leader of this new movement who love to shout from their rameumptons that they are the chosen remnant people of the Lord. Just exactly what Jim Harmston did in the early 90's and so many others have done in the past 200 years. This story is not new. The movement will crumble and fade away just like Harmstons did and Rigdons did and Stranges did and (insert your favorite apostate breakoff here). None have any valid Priesthood keys. None will prosper. All are in apostasy.

https://mormonheretic.org/2013/11/30/wh ... -got-exed/

I want to learn more about Harmston--any good books or articles I should check out?

A google search led me here and I just don't honestly see many similarities between Snuffer and Harmston. Sure, both were excommunicated and said that the leaders are out of the way, but Jesus said that too, not that Snuffer (or Harmston for that matter) is the equal of Jesus.

Harmston was a strong proponent of polygamy, Snuffer is not a fan.

Harmston taught something called the Doctrine of Rescue, in which a man can take another man's wife if he has more priesthood keys.

"The second way in which a wife can be separated from her husband while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood I have not revealed except to a few persons in this church, and a few have received it from Joseph the Prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement.

Snuffer denounced this doctrine.

Harmston centralized power in himself. If Snuffer is getting it wrong, he's getting it wrong in the other direction--the remnant is more anarchy than anything.

[Seek the Truth]

Any other takers?

This good brother who truly has proven in his own mind that he can redefine "is" so it doesn't mean "is", has not addressed the question of unity with a leader.

You are being dishonest again. Provide a citation or issue a retraction and apology.

I honestly would like to hear an answer.

Again, my question remains unanswered:

Please explain why this elder believes in his heart that we members should be tested on whether or not we are united with any leader not named Jesus Christ?

For kicks, and partially to check my sanity, I asked my kid just now who hasn't hit puberty the same question.

I coached him not.

And I quote him:

We should not seek to be united with any church leader not named Jesus because he might be wrong.

Then I asked, Why, what's the danger?

Because that leader could lead us to do something wrong.

Hallelujah! I haven't lost my mind.

Now I would love to see some TBM's here humbly agree with what seems to me to be simple truth, which couldn't even confound a non teenager!

You shouldn't ask your son. You should inquire of God as to why he put this teaching in scripture.

And you should no longer claim the teachings of Joseph Smith because you reject them outright,