Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

[underdog]

You said:

As all these revelations are true, everyone can expect these two priesthoods, and their keys, to remain in this church until the restoration of all things.

What about apostasy? DC 121 declares you lose priesthood once you abuse it. Denver's whole point is leaders have lost their priesthood due to abuse. You all completely ignore this truth. The principle is immutable.

Joseph's revelations above are still intact because Denver received his patriarchal and even Aaronic Priesthood while a member.

Denver's priesthood is useless without the keys of the church. It is the keys of the church that authorize the keys of the priesthood. Once the church has been established and organized (which has already happened), your priesthood and keys are subject to the keys of the church. Remove yourself from the church, and then try to use your priesthood, and instead of blessings you'll get curses, instead of the Holy Ghost, you'll have demons come and set up shop and start giving you tons of false revelations. You'll say, "Oh, look at all the revelations I'm receiving now! I never had so many revelations as I have now that I've departed from the church!" And that might be true that you never had so many. But all the revelations will be false. So what good are they? None of that is salvific. Plus, the priesthood you use without church authorization cannot write your name on the Book of Life. (Per D&C 128.) Either you do not understand what the keys are for, or you don't care. You are too drunk on all the false manifestations.

Now, who am I to speak, right? If your experience in the church has been one of drought, of putting up a glass to your lips and getting nothing, no spiritual manifestations, no gifts, nothing, and now you've departed and are getting lots (but all false), it's very much like spiritual masturbation. Nothing comes of it. Sure, it's sensory, but it's fruitless. In the church you were spiritually celibate, devoid of spiritual manifestations, but your name got written in the heavens, in the heavenly Book of Life. But that's not good enough for you, so you depart.

This is the same tactic used by the devils for devil-worshipping. All the occult practices apply the same principle: sell your soul to the devil and reap the "rewards" now. In the after life you will lose all, but at least now you get to enjoy some power or sex or manifestations or whatever it is you are seeking to enjoy. But your afterlife is screwed. All the people who sell their souls do so with the understanding that it's all for this life alone, the next life is one of misery and captivity. And so they seek to live as long as possible.

The same devilish principle applies to people believing in Christ who follow false spirits and false teachers. These people want everything NOW. Give me Zion NOW. Let's establish Zion NOW. Let's get more scripture NOW. Let's continue the restoration NOW. So, the timetable of things is taken out of the Lord's hands and placed into the hands of the apostates. They will forcefully make all the scriptures come to pass and be fulfilled, except for the scripture they don't like or agree with. That scripture will get tossed into the trash. And how will they perform this great miracle? By resorting to demonic spirits. The demons are ready and willing to provide as much guidance and priesthood and scripture as one wants.

The demons will speak about the keys of the priesthood, but they won't address the keys of the church. They won't because they can't. There is nothing they can say about the keys of the church. The keys of the church undoes the devil doctrines. It destroys these crafts. Have I not written extensively about the keys of the church? Who else has written about such things? Has Denver? No. He doesn't have a clue about these things because if he even attempts to address them, his whole narrative unravels. All apostates avoid the topic of the keys of the church like the plague.

The keys of of the church is your strawman.

That's what I'm saying to you. Your definition of "church" is another strawman.

You spend great time convincing yourself of YOUR definitions and then shoot down other arguments that don't conform to YOUR definitions.

Your ideas are about YOU and what YOU think.

I think it's better to let the Scriptures govern instead of setting yourself up as the source of definitions. You cite your revelations as source material and yet do not even declare to be sent.

[Thomas]

LDSanarchist wrote: The demons will speak about the keys of the priesthood, but they won't address the keys of the church. They won't because they can't. There is nothing they can say about the keys of the church. The keys of the church undoes the devil doctrines. It destroys these crafts. Have I not written extensively about the keys of the church? Who else has written about such things? Has Denver? No. He doesn't have a clue about these things because if he even attempts to address them, his whole narrative unravels. All apostates avoid the topic of the keys of the church like the plague.

Here is what Denver has said about keys. Since you seem to be the expert on them perhaps you can answer the questions that Denver has given here. I would like to see what have to say about it.

Denver Snuffer said: Now I want to focus on the topic of “keys.” This is a continuing theme of meetings, conferences and articles put out by the church. Like the Catholic Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints focuses attention continuously upon the claim to possess “keys.” The Catholics claim they have perpetuated them from Peter to the present. The Latter-day Saints claim to have been given them more recently. But both of these churches base their legitimacy on the claim to have something they denominate “keys” and therefore they can offer salvation to their respective memberships.
With all the crying of “Lo, keys here!” and “Lo, keys there!” I ask you what do you make of it all? Who is to be believed on these claims? And even what does it mean to have possession of a “key” in the first place? For all the grandeur of the claim, who can explain to me exactly what a “key” is? And exactly what “keys” do you Latter-day Saints possess? How do they help you to be saved? You are told that you must follow them, to obey them, to submit to them, and that you are in eternal peril if you doubt them, and yet who can explain to me what these “keys” consist of and how they are employed in your salvation? Is it that you learn certain key words and signs and hand-grips? Because if that is what you mean then even the apostates who read the temple rights on-line can have them as well. Can they offer me salvation? Is it your temple sealing rites? If so you better not have made any changes to them, as we shall presently see.

If we allow the claim to have these “keys” as something important then what about the other matters which God cared so much about as to send angels to Joseph Smith to restore them. Joseph’s letter refers in addition to “dispensations” and to “rights” and to “honors” and also to “majesty” and further to “glory” and then also to “power of their priesthood” and all of this was to “confirm hope.” Where is mention of these things? What are they? Joseph apparently needed to receive them, and yet we hear nothing about these other matters. Are they not important for our salvation?
Now you tell me, you declare to me, what are your dispensations? (I have one, and Joseph had one, but do you have one also?) Tell me what your rights are? Can you even tell me what your keys are? John Taylor tried to develop The Book of Keys, because he didn't know what they were and he hoped to be able to parse the matter out so he could understand it better. You tell me what they are. Stop proclaiming that you own them, and tell me in plainness so as to persuade us all they both matter to salvation and you understand them enough to explain exactly what they are!

Tell me what your honors are. Tell me what your majesty is. Tell me what your glory is. Tell me then what the power of your priesthood is. Because if keys alone were sufficient, I rather think that Joseph Smith who understood what he was writing, would not have gone to the trouble of parsing through the words: dispensation, rights, keys, honors, majesty, glory and power, if it was all speaking to exactly the same thing.
I say to you that it is not speaking to the same thing.

There is so much more that has to go on and be understood, if you are going to save yourself and any soul in this generation, in that kingdom which we claim we would like to inherit. We claim we'd like to inherit it without any idea of the consequences of what it would take in order to ascend there. Or without any regard to the fact that, you don't take one of the El and bring them down into mortality, pain-free. You say that the Son of God condescended to come and be here. And I say so did Michael, and so did Raphael, and so the Gabriel. Because coming down and condescending to be here on a rescue mission, by those who dwell in glory, is an act of service and sacrifice, that we simply take for granted out of the abundance of our ignorance. You hardly comprehend the things of God. You simply do not know how great things God has done for us. You remain content to allow conceit and foolishness to lead you from error to error without any fear you are losing your souls.

I am also wondering if you have prayed about Denver's message and about if he was sent from God

[underdog]

LDS Anarchist,

You said:

As for Eyring and the rest, nowhere in the scriptures does it state that the twelve are to be prophets, seers and revelators. So, why are you raising such a high bar for them? The scriptures only say they are to teach the commandments and revelations that Joseph received

You are saying I am setting the bar high?

You're rapidly losing all credibility, despite your spiritual gifts. I am 100% sure you know the apostles set the bar that high for themselves. How do I know you know?

Does this sound familiar?

Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?

Also, I know you are aware that 4 times a year (2x in stake conference and 2x in General Conference) members are asked to sustain them as prophets, seers, and revelators.

SADLY, they lower the bar as to what it means to be a prophet, seer and revelator. The bar is so low ANYBODY could be. But they want people to view them as "special witnesses". They want praise of the world! And when we undertake to gratify our pride or vain ambition and exercise control over people by virtue of the priesthood, WE LOSE IT!

THAT is the lesson the 'many who are called' fail to learn.

[mirkwood]

"Keep the Doctrine of Christ pure and do not go to those who have not been set apart"

[underdog]

LDSanarchist wrote: The demons will speak about the keys of the priesthood, but they won't address the keys of the church. They won't because they can't. There is nothing they can say about the keys of the church. The keys of the church undoes the devil doctrines. It destroys these crafts. Have I not written extensively about the keys of the church? Who else has written about such things? Has Denver? No. He doesn't have a clue about these things because if he even attempts to address them, his whole narrative unravels. All apostates avoid the topic of the keys of the church like the plague.

Here is what Denver has said about keys. Since you seem to be the expert on them perhaps you can answer the questions that Denver has given here. I would like to see what have to say about it.

Denver Snuffer said: Now I want to focus on the topic of “keys.” This is a continuing theme of meetings, conferences and articles put out by the church. Like the Catholic Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints focuses attention continuously upon the claim to possess “keys.” The Catholics claim they have perpetuated them from Peter to the present. The Latter-day Saints claim to have been given them more recently. But both of these churches base their legitimacy on the claim to have something they denominate “keys” and therefore they can offer salvation to their respective memberships.
With all the crying of “Lo, keys here!” and “Lo, keys there!” I ask you what do you make of it all? Who is to be believed on these claims? And even what does it mean to have possession of a “key” in the first place? For all the grandeur of the claim, who can explain to me exactly what a “key” is? And exactly what “keys” do you Latter-day Saints possess? How do they help you to be saved? You are told that you must follow them, to obey them, to submit to them, and that you are in eternal peril if you doubt them, and yet who can explain to me what these “keys” consist of and how they are employed in your salvation? Is it that you learn certain key words and signs and hand-grips? Because if that is what you mean then even the apostates who read the temple rights on-line can have them as well. Can they offer me salvation? Is it your temple sealing rites? If so you better not have made any changes to them, as we shall presently see.

If we allow the claim to have these “keys” as something important then what about the other matters which God cared so much about as to send angels to Joseph Smith to restore them. Joseph’s letter refers in addition to “dispensations” and to “rights” and to “honors” and also to “majesty” and further to “glory” and then also to “power of their priesthood” and all of this was to “confirm hope.” Where is mention of these things? What are they? Joseph apparently needed to receive them, and yet we hear nothing about these other matters. Are they not important for our salvation?
Now you tell me, you declare to me, what are your dispensations? (I have one, and Joseph had one, but do you have one also?) Tell me what your rights are? Can you even tell me what your keys are? John Taylor tried to develop The Book of Keys, because he didn't know what they were and he hoped to be able to parse the matter out so he could understand it better. You tell me what they are. Stop proclaiming that you own them, and tell me in plainness so as to persuade us all they both matter to salvation and you understand them enough to explain exactly what they are!

Tell me what your honors are. Tell me what your majesty is. Tell me what your glory is. Tell me then what the power of your priesthood is. Because if keys alone were sufficient, I rather think that Joseph Smith who understood what he was writing, would not have gone to the trouble of parsing through the words: dispensation, rights, keys, honors, majesty, glory and power, if it was all speaking to exactly the same thing.
I say to you that it is not speaking to the same thing.

There is so much more that has to go on and be understood, if you are going to save yourself and any soul in this generation, in that kingdom which we claim we would like to inherit. We claim we'd like to inherit it without any idea of the consequences of what it would take in order to ascend there. Or without any regard to the fact that, you don't take one of the El and bring them down into mortality, pain-free. You say that the Son of God condescended to come and be here. And I say so did Michael, and so did Raphael, and so the Gabriel. Because coming down and condescending to be here on a rescue mission, by those who dwell in glory, is an act of service and sacrifice, that we simply take for granted out of the abundance of our ignorance. You hardly comprehend the things of God. You simply do not know how great things God has done for us. You remain content to allow conceit and foolishness to lead you from error to error without any fear you are losing your souls.

I am also wondering if you have prayed about Denver's message and about if he was sent from God

To LDS Anarchist and Jesef,

As I read the above quote by Denver, there is an inescapable sense that he KNOWS things. He understands what he's talking about. One gets the sense when he preaches that he's just scratching the surface and holding back tremendously.

Jesef apparently is unimpressed spiritually.

When one reads LDS Anarchist's words you find contradictions and statements that just make you think he's confused, and pointing to himself as a great light. He does not bother to hide his boasting. Denver's words are written with power. In some cases they are like the Brother of Jared's, bordering on almost overpowering to read.

[Thomas]

"Keep the Doctrine of Christ pure and do not go to those who have not been set apart"

And so we go further down the road of apostasy.

“One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199)

We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316)

“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft… Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.” (Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, pp. 53–54; spelling and grammar modernized.)

“I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ [Job 38:11]; which I cannot subscribe to.” (History of the Church, 6:57; punctuation modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Oct. 15, 1843, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Willard Richards.)

[Onsdag]

And so we go further down the road of apostasy...

You should only include yourself in that statement. As for me, I will continue to look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, and His anointed and living servants (as much as I love and respect Joseph Smith), for the word of God for me in my day. And that word has been (surprise, surprise) - follow, support, and sustain the living Prophets because they are called and chosen by God to lead His people and kingdom on earth.

Good luck though with your road to apostasy, if you choose not to repent. We'll be waiting to welcome you back should you come to your senses and change your mind (and I pray you do).

[Hogmeister]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

[Thomas]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

[underdog]

And so we go further down the road of apostasy...

You should only include yourself in that statement. As for me, I will continue to look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, and His anointed and living servants (as much as I love and respect Joseph Smith), for the word of God for me in my day. And that word has been (surprise, surprise) - follow, support, and sustain the living Prophets because they are called and chosen by God to lead His people and kingdom on earth.

Good luck though with your road to apostasy, if you choose not to repent. We'll be waiting to welcome you back should you come to your senses and change your mind (and I pray you do).

Folks who put their trust in the Sanhedrin/ Jewish leadership believed they were anointed and the living servants.

What if, right now, there was pretty much an exact repeat of their day?

In other words, would you accept an ANOINTED and LIVING servant "sent" from the Lord who is outside your accepted hierarchy?

[Onsdag]

And so we go further down the road of apostasy...

You should only include yourself in that statement. As for me, I will continue to look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, and His anointed and living servants (as much as I love and respect Joseph Smith), for the word of God for me in my day. And that word has been (surprise, surprise) - follow, support, and sustain the living Prophets because they are called and chosen by God to lead His people and kingdom on earth.

Good luck though with your road to apostasy, if you choose not to repent. We'll be waiting to welcome you back should you come to your senses and change your mind (and I pray you do).

Folks who put their trust in the Sanhedrin/ Jewish leadership believed they were anointed and the living servants.

What if, right now, there was pretty much an exact repeat of their day?

In other words, would you accept an ANOINTED and LIVING servant "sent" from the Lord who is outside your accepted hierarchy?

Thank you for your interest in the welfare of my soul. But, with all due respect, your comparison is misguided. I put my trust in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. And they have witnessed to my soul in unmistakable ways this very day that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true and living Church on the earth, with Jesus Christ at the head, and that the Prophets and Apostles whom I sustained and who lead the Church are in truth God's servants on the earth in this day. Any other person or group of people claiming to the contrary are imposters and should be rejected. This witness comes to me not from man, but from God Himself through the precious gift of the Holy Ghost. Though I am a weak and fallen human I have come to know God's voice, and by following His servants I am in truth following Him.

I would invite and encourage you to do what is necessary to get your own witness of who the Lord's true "ANOINTED and LIVING servant(s)" are.

[Hogmeister]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

Would you agree that was similar to what happened earlier in Jackson county Missouri?

Then read on in section 124...

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.
50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.
51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

The church was actually preserved/blessed and not destroyed by moving further west as prophesied by Joseph Smith and as shown by the historical record.

[Onsdag]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

It's also pretty hard to ignore the fact that throughout scripture and history good honest saints have been "driven out... and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property." Job, Lehi, Alma, Jesus Christ and the early Apostles...

Do not be too quick to ascribe pain, suffering, and loss as the punishment of God when in fact it may be something entirely different going on.

[underdog]

And so we go further down the road of apostasy...

You should only include yourself in that statement. As for me, I will continue to look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, and His anointed and living servants (as much as I love and respect Joseph Smith), for the word of God for me in my day. And that word has been (surprise, surprise) - follow, support, and sustain the living Prophets because they are called and chosen by God to lead His people and kingdom on earth.

Good luck though with your road to apostasy, if you choose not to repent. We'll be waiting to welcome you back should you come to your senses and change your mind (and I pray you do).

Folks who put their trust in the Sanhedrin/ Jewish leadership believed they were anointed and the living servants.

What if, right now, there was pretty much an exact repeat of their day?

In other words, would you accept an ANOINTED and LIVING servant "sent" from the Lord who is outside your accepted hierarchy?

Thank you for your interest in the welfare of my soul. But, with all due respect, your comparison is misguided. I put my trust in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. And they have witnessed to my soul in unmistakable ways this very day that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true and living Church on the earth, with Jesus Christ at the head, and that the Prophets and Apostles whom I sustained and who lead the Church are in truth God's servants on the earth in this day. Any other person or group of people claiming to the contrary are imposters and should be rejected. This witness comes to me not from man, but from God Himself through the precious gift of the Holy Ghost. Though I am a weak and fallen human I have come to know God's voice, and by following His servants I am in truth following Him.

I would invite and encourage you to do what is necessary to get your own witness of who the Lord's true "ANOINTED and LIVING servant(s)" are.

That's a great response. Better not to be lukewarm.

I have my witness. You have yours.

Now welcome to the debate on which servant and their message conforms with scripture. You're not too late to weigh in.

[underdog]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

It's also pretty hard to ignore the fact that throughout scripture and history good honest saints have been "driven out... and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property." Job, Lehi, Alma, Jesus Christ and the early Apostles...

Do not be too quick to ascribe pain, suffering, and loss as the punishment of God when in fact it may be something entirely different going on.

In this case, it was an IF-THEN warning. Fulfilled to a T.

[Thomas]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

Would you agree that was similar to what happened earlier in Jackson county Missouri?

Then read on in section 124...

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.
50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.
51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

The church was actually preserved/blessed and not destroyed by moving further west as prophesied by Joseph Smith and as shown by the historical record.

Have you actually read D&C 124? The Lord would have protected them and they would not be moved from their place.

45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.

48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord.

This is an example of extreme pride and refusal to acknowledge the chastisement of the Lord. No wonder the scriptures talk so much about our pride. It really blows my mind that people refuse to see what is plainly written.

[Hogmeister]

Moved out of their place and chastised is not the same as rejecting the church and its dead. The same thing actually happened before in Jackson county. If you read closely you also find that the leadership hearkened to the voice of the Lord. But I guess that to many members were working against them (just like Snuffer) so the Lord had to move them for a time but we have the Lord's promise that physical Zion and her center stakes will eventually be redeemed when the time is right. Everything works out under the watchful eye of the Lord and with his providence.

"No unhallowed hand can stop (interrupt or frustrate) this work from progressing..." (and no hallowed hand ever would).

The stone that was cut without hands will roll forth and eventually fill the whole earth. Not roll a little bit, then start all over again.

I will tell you as plainly as I can Denver Snuffer is a charlatan, an accuser of the brethren. And anyone should be extra careful with accusers to really examine and then reexamine their works and words so they are not found on the wrong side. We need enough light in us to see and judge clearly.

I sometimes disagree with the things I hear from the leadership, I may be wrong at times and they may be wrong at times (they also disagree among themselves at times), but I have learned that we should cover each others weakness or ignorance with a cloak of charity. It is the devil that is the accuser of the brethren.

[skmo]

There is no light or wisdom to be gained from listening to Denver Snuffer. He is a servant against Christ and only by repentance and humility can he come to any eternal reward. People who give credence to his words do so at their own risk, for he is deluded and misleading.

[Seek the Truth]

Folks who put their trust in the Sanhedrin/ Jewish leadership believed they were anointed and the living servants.

What if, right now, there was pretty much an exact repeat of their day?

In other words, would you accept an ANOINTED and LIVING servant "sent" from the Lord who is outside your accepted hierarchy?

If you get to have a Sanhedrin you have to let other people have one as well.

[Seek the Truth]

Again with the atrocious research and reading comprehension from Snufferites.

I don't think you understand what dispensation means. It means disperse or that something is given. It doesn't give an institution any guarantee.

Snuffer acknowledges Joseph Smith as this dispensation head. The priesthood was given to him or dispensed to him from a person from the other side of the veil. This was required because the priesthood had been taken from the earth. There were no men left that had met the requirement s for priesthood.

The priesthood dispensed to us through Joseph Smith is still on the earth. There is no need for a new dispensation. We have priesthood. Just because the keys of distributing this authority were given to the leaders of the church doesn't mean men who hold those offices will always retain them. Like I said, you have failed to show me any scripture that says that.

You are pretty hung up on your Kingdom of God quote. Look at D&C 90:

2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.

This was 1833, which is after the origination of the church but the scripture says the kingdom is coming forth. It is a still future event. So the Kingdom is not the church. It is a government that will rule the world. Kingdoms are governments.

"Is coming forth" is PRESENT TENSE. "Will come forth" is FUTURE TENSE. Jesus spoke in PRESENT TENSE, and well he should.

Look up the index TPJS "Kingdom of God", wherein Joseph Smith over and over states the Kingdom of God and the LDS Church ARE THE SAME THING, which he brought forth AND IS REQUIRED FOR THE EXALTATION OF MAN. NO KINGDOM, NO CHURCH, NO SALVATION.

You are fatally wrong on these points.

Now look at verse 6:

6 And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom;

LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM LAST KINGDOM

OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THE SCRIPTURES YOU ARE COPYING BEFORE YOU PASTE THEM.

DENVER IS A NEEEEEEWWWWW KINGDOM!!!!!!!!!

Sydney Ridgon was equal to Joseph in holding these keys. Brigham Young took control of the church and threw out the remaining man that was equal to Joseph in holding those keys. This is why I say, Sydney Ridgon likely had a better claim than Brigham Young.

This is wrong for many reasons, but the simplest one is Sidney rejected his own keys. He wanted to be a caretaker of the Church, no such office ever existed. The Kingdom requires a Presiding Prophet.

So that leaves the question, who has the keys to form the Kingdom of God on earth. My guess is that JS still holds them but no living man does. Perhaps a resurrected JS still has work to do.

Well this is a painfully remedial topic but probably the simplest starting point in your case is indeed Joseph Smith, who stated in TPJS that the 12 were PSRs which possessed the keys of the kingdom themselves (pg 109) and you and other branch offs have to explain how prophets seers and revelators with the keys of the kingdom given to them already would be unable to determine a successor President. That is a high bar to clear, and in the end you will not be able to clear it.

[Seek the Truth]

Also Thomas you should read this one. And ponder on the last kingdom and what happens at the end of it.

TPJS pg 169.

This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam; and Adam receiving his Presidency and authority from the Lord, but cannot receive a fullness until Christ shall present the Kingdom to the Father, which shall be at the end of the last dispensation.

[Hogmeister]

I find it inconsistent that Snufferites demand that the president of the church at all times must be like Moses or Joseph Smith in their capacity yet they teach that we don't need a Moses to stand before the face of the Lord since everyone should seek this blessing. Which way do you want it? If we always had need of a Moses or JS to lead us on the right path we would always be like little children in the gospel. The Lord expects more firmness of faith and independence than that and give us that opportunity.


On another note: 1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

[underdog]

I find it inconsistent that Snufferites demand that the president of the church at all times must be like Moses or Joseph Smith in their capacity yet they teach that we don't need a Moses to stand before the face of the Lord since everyone should seek this blessing. Which way do you want it? If we always had need of a Moses or JS to lead us on the right path we would always be like little children in the gospel. The Lord expects more firmness of faith and independence than that and give us that opportunity.


On another note: 1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

Until all come to a unity of faith, and everybody knows the Lord, a legal administrator, like Moses or Joseph or Denver, is needed. But that doesn't mean that true prophets don't wish that everybody were prophets (See Numbers 11:29).

That quote is true. It hasn't been taken from the earth.

[Mark]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

Would you agree that was similar to what happened earlier in Jackson county Missouri?

Then read on in section 124...

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.
50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.
51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

The church was actually preserved/blessed and not destroyed by moving further west as prophesied by Joseph Smith and as shown by the historical record.

I stumbled across a blog by a fellow who really is no friend of the LDS church and frankly disagreed with Snuffers excommunication yet even he lays out the case of excommunication by showing one pointed accusation after another concerning Snuffers interpretations of the so called downfall of the LDS faith and its leadership hierarchy from Snuffers book and I also might ad his blogs he wrote that were even more accusatory toward LDS church leadership from its very beginnings. If you read his words you will begin to see that Snuffer was in open rebellion against church leadership and was accusing them of being in an apostate state since clear back to the time of Joseph's administration. He clearly says that the church and its ordinances were rejected by the Lord. Period. If you read his stuff you will see that Snuffer was subtlety setting himself up to become the leader of this new movement who love to shout from their rameumptons that they are the chosen remnant people of the Lord. Just exactly what Jim Harmston did in the early 90's and so many others have done in the past 200 years. This story is not new. The movement will crumble and fade away just like Harmstons did and Rigdons did and Stranges did and (insert your favorite apostate breakoff here). None have any valid Priesthood keys. None will prosper. All are in apostasy.

https://mormonheretic.org/2013/11/30/wh ... -got-exed/

[underdog]

Snuffer claims the church was rejected because the saints took too long to build the Nauvoo temple. Read the commandment to the saints more closely. The commandment reads in essence that if they kept baptizing their dead outside the temple after they had enough time to build a temple then they and their dead would be rejected. They never failed to obey this commandment. This is Snuffers deceptive strawman.

Pretty hard to get around the fact that were driven out of Nauvoo and suffered, hardships, deaths, loss of property. That is the exact penalty God said would happen if they did not complete the work.

Would you agree that was similar to what happened earlier in Jackson county Missouri?

Then read on in section 124...

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.
50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.
51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

The church was actually preserved/blessed and not destroyed by moving further west as prophesied by Joseph Smith and as shown by the historical record.

I stumbled across a blog by a fellow who really is no friend of the LDS church and frankly disagreed with Snuffers excommunication yet even he lays out the case of excommunication by showing one pointed accusation after another concerning Snuffers interpretations of the so called downfall of the LDS faith and its leadership hierarchy from Snuffers book and I also might ad his blogs he wrote that were even more accusatory toward LDS church leadership from its very beginnings. If you read his words you will begin to see that Snuffer was in open rebellion against church leadership and was accusing them of being in an apostate state since clear back to the time of Joseph's administration. He clearly says that the church and its ordinances were rejected by the Lord. Period. If you read his stuff you will see that Snuffer was subtlety setting himself up to become the leader of this new movement who love to shout from their rameumptons that they are the chosen remnant people of the Lord. Just exactly what Jim Harmston did in the early 90's and so many others have done in the past 200 years. This story is not new. The movement will crumble and fade away just like Harmstons did and Rigdons did and Stranges did and (insert your favorite apostate breakoff here). None have any valid Priesthood keys. None will prosper. All are in apostasy.

https://mormonheretic.org/2013/11/30/wh ... -got-exed/

Thanks for the new link. I'll take a look. Looks credible after the first few paragraphs.

That makes sense what you're saying about apostasy creeping in during Joseph's administration. Same thing happened in the first century after Christ died and was resurrected. Signs of apostasy were everywhere. Whenever a true prophet is on the earth, you better bet there will be continued attempts to lead the flock to apostatize. The parable in DC 101:43-62 predicts apostasy in Joseph's day.

This fact -- that apostasy is a clear and present danger to a group of true believers -- is all the more reason to appreciate the equality and balance of power that DC 107 set up. Joseph made a regular stake in Zion (the high council of that stake) equal in authority to the First Presidency and to the Q of the 12 and to the 70. This was to guard against apostasy. Centralized power usually leads to captivity, as Mosiah, Alma, and the Brother of Jared warned. In other words, centralized power leads to the abuse of the people. Denver shows how this happened beginning with B.Y.

Furthermore, in DC 107, even the president of the church could be tried by other quorums for apostasy or whatever transgression he would be accused of. And yet, DC 107 is completely ignored today. It's no secret in our TRADITION that the apostles call the shots in today's Church. If a stake president or high council tried to stand up to the Q of the 12's authority, they would be summarily released from their callings or flat out excommunicated. Denver's stake president was released because he wouldn't excommunicate Denver and in fact gave him a temple recommend just before being released. The new SP did the bidding of Elder Nelson. This abuse of power is what Joseph had in mind when DC 107 was given. DC 107 would thwart such abuse.

Brother Mark, you frequently bring up false prophets, or groups or persons that proved to be frauds, like Harmston and others. Will you answer this question? Don't you think that this would be Satan's plan? To send as many false prophets, if you will, to deceived the people, so that when a true prophet appears, the status quo people could say, "Oh boy, here we go again, Here's another one in a long line of frauds!" This is actually what history shows to be the case. There are forgeries everywhere, but the existence of frauds doesn't mean the "next guy" will also be a fraud. Would you please note your agreement to this point? Thank you.