Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

[Mark]

If the snuffer movement weren't so blinded this would be a hard pill to swallow. From my memory one of the biggest turn on's to snuffer was that you didn't need a prophet and that you should seek Christ. So lets lay this out -

So they followed a prophet until they disagreed with him
They said one should look directly to the Savior for revelation so no need for a prophet
Now the Lord is going to send prophets again
Good news this are going to be bad but we have propehts to help us get through them
Surprise I am a prophet listen to me
Don't listen to those who have not been sent (I will tell you who has been sent- surprise it's me)

So what is this big list of prophesy from Snuffer: From the list I read there was only 1: "Referred to verse 34 saying ALL the signs will be fulfilled in THIS generation. Big time prophesy."

Holy smokes - so either Snuffer has guessed right or we have to wait 25.5 years and then have the snuffer crowd debate what a generation is. At least you have some time to hang on to the guy.

Since we all know the signs of the times have been manifesting themselves for some time, to say that they will all be fulfilled in this generation is about as risky as selling caffeinated drinks at BYU.

Perhaps you're right about the 'big time"ness of the prophesy. Perhaps I sensationalized it? I was looking at it from a perspective of the clock is now ticking. We all know that going back hundreds of years, even back to Peter's day, that there are people who think or thought THEIR generation is/was THE generation when Christ would come. So to say it is THIS generation is very significant. Has anybody in the Mormon Church recently said something so bold? I can't think of a time where THIS generation was called out. Couple that with Denver's prophesy that American will end in fratricidal and genocidal warfare, we have a person who at least is saying things a true prophet (like Noah) would be saying.

And you said (I corrected your typos...my response in blue):

So they followed a prophet until they disagreed with him. Speaking of TSM? I can't think of anything I've disagreed with him about. Besides exing Denver.
They said one should look directly to the Savior for revelation so no need for a prophet. Yes to look to the Savior. I wish there is no need for a prophet, but that seems to be God's M/O. I've not seen Denver teach there's no need for a prophet categorically.
Now the Lord is going to send prophets again. He always has, so why not now?
Good news... things are going to get bad but we have prophets to help us get through them. That would be good if true.
Surprise I am a prophet listen to me. That would be good if he's legit. And the status quo if not legit.
Don't listen to those who have not been sent (I will tell you who has been sent- surprise it's me)

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1982/05/pre ... d?lang=eng

[drtanner]

Major prophesy was uttered, IMHO.

For interested people who missed it, the highlights were as follows:

• He spent time on discussing what it means to "be sent."

• He taught the doctrine of Christ.

• Invited all to be baptized.

• Said read Matthew 24, which is about the signs immediately preceding the Second Coming.

• Said the signs have begun.

• Referred to verse 34 saying ALL the signs will be fulfilled in THIS generation. Big time prophesy.

• Said to be of good cheer, that prophets will be among you. As in PLURALITY of prophets.

• Said that if you're going to listen to a preacher who says he has a message from God, you should only listen to one who has been sent.

• He bore testimony at the end that he knows Christ lives, for he has seen Him, as Paul saw Him.

• He compared himself to Noah.

• Said the end times will be like Noah's day. That's the scary part. But said the good news is that there will be prophets sent, just as Noah was sent.

Lets be clear and honest about what this was. This was not about the message, it was about the messenger. Can you not see that crystal clear? Who spends that kind of money advertising in the LA Times in the name of the Christian reformation to try and gain an audience and then claims he is a modern day Noah? Can you ever imagine Joseph Smith or any real prophet doing this? What is next buying followers on Instagram or Facebook?

I agree with you.

He testified of Joseph, saying he was sent.

Then he said he has been sent.

All true and false prophets say or imply they are sent.

And all true and false prophets are rejected for the same reason. Interesting.

Yes but not all people pay for advertising to try and get people to follow them. It is one thing to pay for advertising for a message and point all to Christ but that is not what this was.

[underdog]

Major prophesy was uttered, IMHO.

For interested people who missed it, the highlights were as follows:

• He spent time on discussing what it means to "be sent."

• He taught the doctrine of Christ.

• Invited all to be baptized.

• Said read Matthew 24, which is about the signs immediately preceding the Second Coming.

• Said the signs have begun.

• Referred to verse 34 saying ALL the signs will be fulfilled in THIS generation. Big time prophesy.

• Said to be of good cheer, that prophets will be among you. As in PLURALITY of prophets.

• Said that if you're going to listen to a preacher who says he has a message from God, you should only listen to one who has been sent.

• He bore testimony at the end that he knows Christ lives, for he has seen Him, as Paul saw Him.

• He compared himself to Noah.

• Said the end times will be like Noah's day. That's the scary part. But said the good news is that there will be prophets sent, just as Noah was sent.

Lets be clear and honest about what this was. This was not about the message, it was about the messenger. Can you not see that crystal clear? Who spends that kind of money advertising in the LA Times in the name of the Christian reformation to try and gain an audience and then claims he is a modern day Noah? Can you ever imagine Joseph Smith or any real prophet doing this? What is next buying followers on Instagram or Facebook?

I agree with you.

He testified of Joseph, saying he was sent.

Then he said he has been sent.

All true and false prophets say or imply they are sent.

And all true and false prophets are rejected for the same reason. Interesting.

Yes but not all people pay for advertising to try and get people to follow them. It is one thing to pay for advertising for a message and pointing all to Christ but that is not what this was.

The Christian audience knew of Christ. You have to admit that if he didn't bear that witness then you'd have to be asking what the heck he was doing out there.

The problem with the theory he's false is that he is accepting no money. Unlike paid ministries even in our beloved Church.

The rest of his talk...was there anything amiss or antiChrist?

[Mark]

How does any one church escape being included in "every one"?

Was Moroni sloppy in his use of terms? Is this an incorrect translation by Joseph?

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

So we are all agreeing then that the lds church is a church. Church of snuffer is a church.

That Moroni saw our day and warned us that all churches would become polluted?

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Exactly dr. This has been covered before ad naseum. Moroni referred over and over again to that day when the Book of Mormon would come forth. Read verse 26-28:

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

That is why The Father and The Son told Joseph to join NONE of the churches because they were ALL wrong. The Lord was clearly not referring to the restored church brought forth thru the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph. Neither was Moroni. Think it thru here.

[underdog]

Let me just say that Denver Snuffer has got nothing. A big nothing burger. For all you who have imagined some great awakening through Snuffer, you must make God impotent. That He most certainly is not. If the prophets and apostles of the true church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, had strayed from the path, God could easily remove them and install those more faithful to His revealed word.

There is a great opportunity coming up soon to listen to true messengers. Enjoy General Conference, y'all.

Remove them? I don't think that's how God works. Out of curiosity anyone know if there is any scriptures that point to that as a pattern or if that had ever happened?

I know the conference talk where that was said but that seems to me an out of character statement. God has allowed many people to be lead to destruction by false prophets. I also I just mentioned the scripture in Mormon 8 34-41. Moroni said every church "every one" was polluted.

Thinking on that Satan would want everyone who is in a church that is polluted to think it's not so that they continue to walk a path that is corrupted instead of realizing the curruption and repenting.

How does any one church escape being included in "every one"?

Was Moroni sloppy in his use of terms? Is this an incorrect translation by Joseph?

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

I have to give you credit for bringing some scriptures to the table, including the AoF one above. The questions relative to organization should be considered.

1) What did God command to be done on April 6, 1830? God commanded something to be organized. What was that something? We know it wasn't a corporation sole that was commanded to be established.
2) Whatever that something was, what was its purpose?
3) How long was that something that was organized to serve its purpose?
4) Could it be that that something served its purpose? Perhaps the organization that Joseph started was utilized for a wise purpose by God?
5) It was the will of Christ that He personally call 12 apostles in His day. What lesson do we learn from Judas' apostasy about God's will and apostles whom He calls?

And it still should be readily apparent and acknowledged by ALL intelligent and honest people that quite obviously any organization or institution (and ESPECIALLY large ones and ones that have members of the holy priesthood) is the target for corruption by the Adversary. In the Temple, what does Satan boldly declare, threaten and promise? That with gold and silver he will buy up such organizations and institutions which would include false priests that oppress, with the ultimate goal to reign with blood and horror upon this earth.

Thank you.

[underdog]

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

So we are all agreeing then that the lds church is a church. Church of snuffer is a church.

That Moroni saw our day and warned us that all churches would become polluted?

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Exactly dr. This has been covered before ad naseum. Moroni referred over and over again to that day when the Book of Mormon would come forth. Read verse 26-28:

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

That is why The Father and The Son told Joseph to join NONE of the churches because they were ALL wrong. The Lord was clearly not referring to the restored church brought forth thru the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph. Neither was Moroni. Think it thru here.

Mark,

We agree that, to the Lord, everything is one eternal round. This is hard for us linear people to understand. But to the Lord, everything (past, present, and future) is before Him. So when He prophesies, we have to keep this in mind. That's why certain prophetic statements (like the one about to be fulfilled tomorrow on 9/23/17) is being fulfilled AGAIN.

Take verse 27 which you quoted. What or whose "blood of saints" was crying to the Lord when Joseph was alive when this book was published in March of 1830? Perhaps Joseph's blood is what this refers to? I think it's quite obvious that Joseph's blood is referred to here. He was murdered due to secret combinations and the works of darkness, including many tares that surrounded him. He was a sheep in the midst of wolves. To think he wouldn't have been surrounded by demons is to confess complete naivety! You do confess he WOULD be surrounded by agents of Satan? You do acknowledge that Satan would target him, and any organization he would found?

Take 2 Nephi 28 which offers very similar language as Moroni:

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

[drtanner]

1) What did God command to be done on April 6, 1830? God commanded something to be organized. What was that something? We know it wasn't a corporation sole that was commanded to be established.
2) Whatever that something was, what was its purpose?
3) How long was that something that was organized to serve its purpose?
4) Could it be that that something served its purpose? Perhaps the organization that Joseph started was utilized for a wise purpose by God?
5) It was the will of Christ that He personally call 12 apostles in His day. What lesson do we learn from Judas' apostasy about God's will and apostles whom He calls?

And it still should be readily apparent and acknowledged by ALL intelligent and honest people that quite obviously any organization or institution (and ESPECIALLY large ones or ones that have members of the holy priesthood) is the target for corruption by the Adversary. In the Temple, what does Satan boldly declare? That with gold and silver he will buy up such organizations and institutions which would include false priests that oppress, with the ultimately goal to reign with blood and horror upon this earth.

Thank you.

I think the church as a "corporation" argument shows true naivety for anyone who uses it, truly they have no experience or wisdom in these areas. Have you not read the D&C or church history and all of the financial decisions the Lord was involved in (or not involved in for that matter) and yet the work moved on (and moves on). Maybe watching the denver movement will help you understand all of this. What do you do when the tithing, fast offerings, and donations start pouring in? How is it to be distributed to those that need help, how do you sustain the growth of the church and temples, etc? How is it to be Accounted for? Protected? Classified? Everyone is a great Monday Morning quarterback with the church finances. Everyone wants to call plays left and right on the sidelines but the reality is if you, or Denver, or anyone that is put in the financial game given all the moving parts will get pounced and walk away saying "Oh,that is why they structure it like that." Experience will be the great teacher here I just hope your education doesn't end up costing you a fortune or worse before you recognize the wisdom, truth, and authority that exists in the true church.

[shadow]

Remove them? I don't think that's how God works. Out of curiosity anyone know if there is any scriptures that point to that as a pattern or if that had ever happened?

I know the conference talk where that was said but that seems to me an out of character statement. God has allowed many people to be lead to destruction by false prophets. I also I just mentioned the scripture in Mormon 8 34-41. Moroni said every church "every one" was polluted.

Thinking on that Satan would want everyone who is in a church that is polluted to think it's not so that they continue to walk a path that is corrupted instead of realizing the curruption and repenting.

How does any one church escape being included in "every one"?

Was Moroni sloppy in his use of terms? Is this an incorrect translation by Joseph?

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

I have to give you credit for bringing some scriptures to the table, including the AoF one above. The questions relative to organization should be considered.

1) What did God command to be done on April 6, 1830? God commanded something to be organized. What was that something? We know it wasn't a corporation sole that was commanded to be established.
2) Whatever that something was, what was its purpose?
3) How long was that something that was organized to serve its purpose?
4) Could it be that that something served its purpose? Perhaps the organization that Joseph started was utilized for a wise purpose by God?
5) It was the will of Christ that He personally call 12 apostles in His day. What lesson do we learn from Judas' apostasy about God's will and apostles whom He calls?

I'm not sure if you make things difficult for yourself on purpose or what the deal is but the scripture quoted above is regarding the "church". And what was to be done with it? It was top be "organized". How is it to be organized? "...agreeable to the laws of our country".
So organize the church so it's agreeable with the laws of the country. Oh, incorporate it.
You readily admit that Joseph was a Prophet but are you aware of what he did with the church?

[Mark]

So we are all agreeing then that the lds church is a church. Church of snuffer is a church.

That Moroni saw our day and warned us that all churches would become polluted?

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Exactly dr. This has been covered before ad naseum. Moroni referred over and over again to that day when the Book of Mormon would come forth. Read verse 26-28:

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

That is why The Father and The Son told Joseph to join NONE of the churches because they were ALL wrong. The Lord was clearly not referring to the restored church brought forth thru the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph. Neither was Moroni. Think it thru here.

Mark,

We agree that, to the Lord, everything is one eternal round. This is hard for us linear people to understand. But to the Lord, everything (past, present, and future) is before Him. So when He prophesies, we have to keep this in mind. That's why certain prophetic statements (like the one about to be fulfilled tomorrow on 9/23/17) is being fulfilled AGAIN.

Take verse 27 which you quoted. What or whose "blood of saints" was crying to the Lord when Joseph was alive when this book was published in March of 1830? Perhaps Joseph's blood is what this refers to? I think it's quite obvious that Joseph's blood is referred to here. He was murdered due to secret combinations and the works of darkness, including many tares that surrounded him. He was a sheep in the midst of wolves. To think he wouldn't have been surrounded by demons is to confess complete naivety! You do confess he WOULD be surrounded by agents of Satan? You do acknowledge that Satan would target him, and any organization he would found?

Take 2 Nephi 28 which offers very similar language as Moroni:

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

You are really just making my point dog. Of course Joseph's blood would be included. So would many other Saints who were murdered and persecuted and mobbed by wicked and perverse men. The Tares of Joseph's day were the excommunicates and persecutors who openly called for Joseph's demise both inside and outside the restored church. Now who were Joseph's stanch supporters and allies? Lets see. Hmm. Brigham Young? Heber C Kimball? John Taylor? Wilford Woodruff? Parley P Pratt? Orson Pratt? Willard Richards? Ezra T Benson? George A Smith? Get the picture? Those who stayed faithful to TCOJCOLDS were those who kept the church going and threw their full support behind Brigham Youngs administration. The point I was making before was that Moroni was talking about apostate Christianity and its corrupt leadership that existed at the time of Joseph Smith. He was not looking at and referring To the leadership of TCOJCOLDS 2017.

[underdog]

How does any one church escape being included in "every one"?

Was Moroni sloppy in his use of terms? Is this an incorrect translation by Joseph?

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

I have to give you credit for bringing some scriptures to the table, including the AoF one above. The questions relative to organization should be considered.

1) What did God command to be done on April 6, 1830? God commanded something to be organized. What was that something? We know it wasn't a corporation sole that was commanded to be established.
2) Whatever that something was, what was its purpose?
3) How long was that something that was organized to serve its purpose?
4) Could it be that that something served its purpose? Perhaps the organization that Joseph started was utilized for a wise purpose by God?
5) It was the will of Christ that He personally call 12 apostles in His day. What lesson do we learn from Judas' apostasy about God's will and apostles whom He calls?

I'm not sure if you make things difficult for yourself on purpose or what the deal is but the scripture quoted above is regarding the "church". And what was to be done with it? It was top be "organized". How is it to be organized? "...agreeable to the laws of our country".
So organize the church so it's agreeable with the laws of the country. Oh, incorporate it.
You readily admit that Joseph was a Prophet but are you aware of what he did with the church?

I invite you to check out the link I provided above and educate yourself. Incorporation did happen, but in the dark of night and not on April 6, 1830, but in the 20th century. What the "Church" is ACTUALLY is a corporation sole, with all assets literally owned by the president of the corporation. Same way the Catholic Church is organized. The actual name of the corporation is Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know you don't want to go "there," but this stuff is all available for reading on the Internet. It's well documented, with actual corporate document images available for all to see.

As to what happened on April 6, 1830, I've researched this heavily.

Here's a good article from an "approved source" actually. It basically says that a religious society was established under common law, as that's the way churches were "organized" back then. There were no strings attached back then. No mobster IRS to deal with. There was actually separation of church and state. When strings get attached, a PC culture is born and then truth takes a back seat to what the government says is permissible. Can't serve God and Mammon though, can you? THUS, Denver's approach is much wiser than ORGANIZING anything which can be controlled, influenced or infiltrated. The wisdom still stands. I don't believe God approved nor approves now of billions of dollars going into the hands of one man, as happens under a Corporate Sole. I also don't believe that the Common Law Religious Society Joseph established resembles anything to what the Church is today. It was decentralized back in Joseph's day (as DC 107 made permanent) and remained that way until B.Y. took over and centralized all authority under the 12, with him as the boss.

BYU Symposium: LDS Church's first legal status
By Michael De Groote@degroote
Published: March 13, 2010 12:18 a.m.

PROVO, Utah — For years historians thought that when the Mormon church was originally created it followed a particular 19th-century New York statute. But David Stott, an attorney from New York, found that the church was complying with a different set of legal rules. "When seeking out what legally took place on April 6, 1830, historians have assumed the church members tried to form a 'religious corporation,'" Stott said. But they didn't. This doesn't mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (then called the Church of Christ) was operating illegally. It does mean, however, that some common assumptions about what happened on April 6 may need to be revised. Stott spoke on Friday, March 12, during the BYU Studies Symposium. He gave a lawyer's perspective on what happened on the day the LDS Church was organized. There were two basic ways to form churches in 1830 in New York. One way was to create a "religious corporation."

The other was to form a "religious society." A quick look at the statutory requirements to create a religious corporation might make it seem that was what Joseph Smith Jr., Oliver Cowdery and other believers were doing. After all, a corporation seems to be a good idea — it provides for orderly succession, property management and standard ways of entering into contracts. Stott said to form a religious corporation required an announcement of when and where the church was to be organized, it would take place at a meetinghouse, two elders would preside, a group of trustees would be elected, and it would be certified with a recorded document. Although the April 6 meeting was announced and the meeting place, the Peter Whitmer farm, was a recognized place for the believers to gather, the other requirements don't match.

The "two elders" sole purpose in a religious corporation was to preside over the election of trustees — this didn't match the role of the new church's two elders, Joseph Smith and Cowdery — whose authority was over the church. The six original members of the church are never described as being trustees. And, according to Stott, no government document memorializing any incorporation has ever been found. So if the organization of the church wasn't a corporation, where did that idea come from? Doctrine and Covenants 20 states that the church was "regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country." "This made historians look for one specific statute that they could point to," Stott said.

But early statements like this could just as easily mean "we organized legally. We organized according to what lawyers call the common law — which is kind of the accepted general practice even though there is not necessarily a statute that governs it." Stott said the most common way to organize a religious group was as a common-law religious society. The model for an organizational meeting to create a religious society wasn't found in the statutes. Instead, the early believers had to look at the practices of other churches. Most religious societies were not new churches but branches of established churches. They each had their own particular way of organizing. Presbyterians, for example, required two ruling elders who gave notice of the meeting, conducted a worship service at the meeting, elected the ruling elders at the meeting, set apart the elders and conducted other ordinances such as baptisms.

The type of meeting conducted on April 6, 1830, fits this pattern, according to Stott. Unlike an incorporation meeting — where the whole point of gathering is to elect trustees — the organization of the LDS Church was about choosing two presiding elders. The sacrament was given, ordinations were performed and baptisms were completed. Another indication that the church's first legal status was as a religious society, according to Stott, is there is no mention made of any "incorporation," only of "organizing." The primary concern of Joseph Smith, Stott said, was to organize according to the laws of God. At the same time, it was important to comply with the laws of man. The legal evidence appears to be that the organization was what was known as a religious society — a church that began with six and would one day number in the millions.

[underdog]

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Exactly dr. This has been covered before ad naseum. Moroni referred over and over again to that day when the Book of Mormon would come forth. Read verse 26-28:

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

That is why The Father and The Son told Joseph to join NONE of the churches because they were ALL wrong. The Lord was clearly not referring to the restored church brought forth thru the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph. Neither was Moroni. Think it thru here.

Mark,

We agree that, to the Lord, everything is one eternal round. This is hard for us linear people to understand. But to the Lord, everything (past, present, and future) is before Him. So when He prophesies, we have to keep this in mind. That's why certain prophetic statements (like the one about to be fulfilled tomorrow on 9/23/17) is being fulfilled AGAIN.

Take verse 27 which you quoted. What or whose "blood of saints" was crying to the Lord when Joseph was alive when this book was published in March of 1830? Perhaps Joseph's blood is what this refers to? I think it's quite obvious that Joseph's blood is referred to here. He was murdered due to secret combinations and the works of darkness, including many tares that surrounded him. He was a sheep in the midst of wolves. To think he wouldn't have been surrounded by demons is to confess complete naivety! You do confess he WOULD be surrounded by agents of Satan? You do acknowledge that Satan would target him, and any organization he would found?

Take 2 Nephi 28 which offers very similar language as Moroni:

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

You are really just making my point dog. Of course Joseph's blood would be included. So would many other Saints who were murdered and persecuted and mobbed by wicked and perverse men. The Tares of Joseph's day were the excommunicates and persecutors who openly called for Joseph's demise both inside and outside the restored church. Now who were Joseph's stanch supporters and allies? Lets see. Hmm. Brigham Young? Heber C Kimball? John Taylor? Wilford Woodruff? Parley P Pratt? Orson Pratt? Willard Richards? Ezra T Benson? George A Smith? Get the picture? Those who stayed faithful to TCOJCOLDS were those who kept the church going and threw their full support behind Brigham Youngs administration. The point I was making before was that Moroni was talking about apostate Christianity and its corrupt leadership that existed at the time of Joseph Smith. He was not looking at and referring To the leadership of TCOJCOLDS 2017.

Tares LOOK LIKE wheat. Can you name one leadership (inner circle) tare back in the day who didn't get exed by Joseph? Can you name one leadership tare today? Or do they not exist? Judas existed. So who are the Judases of today? Even of Joseph's day. Or did Joseph ex them all? Perhaps his murder was related to one he didn't get? Christians are pretty good at forgiving and thinking the best of others. Joseph, being a true prophet, was presumably VERY developed at tolerance, and love, and forgiveness. Think with me. Who is the best person to target for infiltration, one who is inherently distrustful and on the lookout for the evil inside you, or the one who turns the other cheek, and forgives 70x7?

[drtanner]

Tares LOOK LIKE wheat. Can you name one leadership (inner circle) tare back in the day who didn't get exed by Joseph? Can you name one leadership tare today?

Denver Snuffer?

Ironic that he puts his leadeship pedegree of the lds church on his about page? Also why would you include this stuff if leadership didn’t matter?

[underdog]

1) What did God command to be done on April 6, 1830? God commanded something to be organized. What was that something? We know it wasn't a corporation sole that was commanded to be established.
2) Whatever that something was, what was its purpose?
3) How long was that something that was organized to serve its purpose?
4) Could it be that that something served its purpose? Perhaps the organization that Joseph started was utilized for a wise purpose by God?
5) It was the will of Christ that He personally call 12 apostles in His day. What lesson do we learn from Judas' apostasy about God's will and apostles whom He calls?

And it still should be readily apparent and acknowledged by ALL intelligent and honest people that quite obviously any organization or institution (and ESPECIALLY large ones or ones that have members of the holy priesthood) is the target for corruption by the Adversary. In the Temple, what does Satan boldly declare? That with gold and silver he will buy up such organizations and institutions which would include false priests that oppress, with the ultimately goal to reign with blood and horror upon this earth.

Thank you.

I think the church as a "corporation" argument shows true naivety for anyone who uses it, truly they have no experience or wisdom in these areas. Have you not read the D&C or church history and all of the financial decisions the Lord was involved in (or not involved in for that matter) and yet the work moved on (and moves on). Maybe watching the denver movement will help you understand all of this. What do you do when the tithing, fast offerings, and donations start pouring in? How is it to be distributed to those that need help, how do you sustain the growth of the church and temples, etc? How is it to be Accounted for? Protected? Classified? Everyone is a great Monday Morning quarterback with the church finances. Everyone wants to call plays left and right on the sidelines but the reality is if you, or Denver, or anyone that is put in the financial game given all the moving parts will get pounced and walk away saying "Oh,that is why they structure it like that." Experience will be the great teacher here I just hope your education doesn't end up costing you a fortune or worse before you recognize the wisdom, truth, and authority that exists in the true church.

I appreciate your concern. I anticipate participating in the BUILDING of the Temple. I will donate money too. It would be an honor. Think Kirtland. With me dispensing money myself to the poor and needy, as the Spirit dictates, I think the chances of getting "cost a fortune" are minimized.

Is it naive to believe that billions upon billions of dollars, or even a paltry hundreds of thousands of dollars being put into the hands of one man (and his close associates who ingratiate themselves to him) would not potentially have the effect of corrupting that man? You I assume would say it would never have that effect on a man, who is the president of the Church? Please correct if I'm wrong.

I say it's better to use a decentralized model, where YOU prayerfully decide to whom of the poor and needy your (the Lord's money) should go to. No need for a Monday Night QB in this case, because YOU are the actual QB. How's corruption going to sneak into this set-up?

Also, which side is more naive? To believe that a corporation sole which has (unethically) set up completely non transparent financial disclosure rules (just like the Federal Reserve System) would not be tempted to do hanky panky with billions of dollars (which there is ZERO accountability to the people for), or to believe that the absence of an institution/ corporation (in favor of random fellowships or just individuals) would be less prone to corruption?

[underdog]

Tares LOOK LIKE wheat. Can you name one leadership (inner circle) tare back in the day who didn't get exed by Joseph? Can you name one leadership tare today?

Denver Snuffer?

Ironic that he puts his leadeship pedegree of the lds church on his about page? Also why would you include this stuff if leadership didn’t matter?

Come now, be serious.

You're saying that Denver Snuffer was a "leader" in the Mormon Church? He was a teacher in some obscure ward somewhere. Obviously we're talking about the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency level. Judas was one of the 12.

I'll save you all the time. You will come up with nobody, because by doing so you will have to acknowledge something that a true church apologist can never do, and that is acknowledge that Underdog has a point, that the Church MIGHT be infiltrated now, and might have been infiltrated even back in Joseph's day. And if THAT is true, then what was/is the scope of damage???? Can't bring yourself to go there, can you?

Thank you, by the way, you reminded me of one juicy little nugget Denver said last night, which was that churches want apologists, because they do not acknowledge weaknesses in their church, and they doggedly defend the church. He said that in the legal system that attorneys must honestly respond to a question given to them by the court. If they don't, they're being unethical. (As an aside, I believe that the legal class are collectively scum and some of the most evil people in the world.) But that in churches, no such ethical standard is required of apologists.

I was a Church apologist for decades. As was Saul of Tarsus. I can defend the Church like the best of them. I know the doctrine inside and out, and know the Scripture as well as most people, simply because that's what I've read almost exclusively for the last 30 years.

I happily was able to be humble enough to acknowledge the weaknesses of the Church. Truth was more important to me than the institution. The Truth and the institution are not one in the same.

[Ezra]

How does any one church escape being included in "every one"?

Was Moroni sloppy in his use of terms? Is this an incorrect translation by Joseph?

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

So we are all agreeing then that the lds church is a church. Church of snuffer is a church.

That Moroni saw our day and warned us that all churches would become polluted?

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Whom is moroni speaking to? Us. Other churches won't receive that message. Who would want us thinking that we are excluded from Moroni's warning. Satan.

Why not include ourself? It will only cause humility and repentance if we do. If we do not it will cause......... pride which is what he was warning about. Verse 37 is also a bit telling since we as a church went away from what god specified as what is to be done with tithing

[shadow]

I invite you to check out the link I provided above and educate yourself. Incorporation did happen, but in the dark of night and not on April 6, 1830, but in the 20th century. What the "Church" is ACTUALLY is a corporation sole, with all assets literally owned by the president of the corporation. Same way the Catholic Church is organized. The actual name of the corporation is Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know you don't want to go "there," but this stuff is all available for reading on the Internet. It's well documented, with actual corporate document images available for all to see.

As to what happened on April 6, 1830, I've researched this heavily.

Here's a good article from an "approved source" actually. It basically says that a religious society was established under common law, as that's the way churches were "organized" back then. There were no strings attached back then. No mobster IRS to deal with. There was actually separation of church and state. When strings get attached, a PC culture is born and then truth takes a back seat to what the government says is permissible. Can't serve God and Mammon though, can you? THUS, Denver's approach is much wiser than ORGANIZING anything which can be controlled, influenced or infiltrated. The wisdom still stands. I don't believe God approved nor approves now of billions of dollars going into the hands of one man, as happens under a Corporate Sole. I also don't believe that the Common Law Religious Society Joseph established resembles anything to what the Church is today. It was decentralized back in Joseph's day (as DC 107 made permanent) and remained that way until B.Y. took over and centralized all authority under the 12, with him as the boss.

BYU Symposium: LDS Church's first legal status
By Michael De Groote@degroote
Published: March 13, 2010 12:18 a.m.

PROVO, Utah — For years historians thought that when the Mormon church was originally created it followed a particular 19th-century New York statute. But David Stott, an attorney from New York, found that the church was complying with a different set of legal rules. "When seeking out what legally took place on April 6, 1830, historians have assumed the church members tried to form a 'religious corporation,'" Stott said. But they didn't. This doesn't mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (then called the Church of Christ) was operating illegally. It does mean, however, that some common assumptions about what happened on April 6 may need to be revised. Stott spoke on Friday, March 12, during the BYU Studies Symposium. He gave a lawyer's perspective on what happened on the day the LDS Church was organized. There were two basic ways to form churches in 1830 in New York. One way was to create a "religious corporation."

The other was to form a "religious society." A quick look at the statutory requirements to create a religious corporation might make it seem that was what Joseph Smith Jr., Oliver Cowdery and other believers were doing. After all, a corporation seems to be a good idea — it provides for orderly succession, property management and standard ways of entering into contracts. Stott said to form a religious corporation required an announcement of when and where the church was to be organized, it would take place at a meetinghouse, two elders would preside, a group of trustees would be elected, and it would be certified with a recorded document. Although the April 6 meeting was announced and the meeting place, the Peter Whitmer farm, was a recognized place for the believers to gather, the other requirements don't match.

The "two elders" sole purpose in a religious corporation was to preside over the election of trustees — this didn't match the role of the new church's two elders, Joseph Smith and Cowdery — whose authority was over the church. The six original members of the church are never described as being trustees. And, according to Stott, no government document memorializing any incorporation has ever been found. So if the organization of the church wasn't a corporation, where did that idea come from? Doctrine and Covenants 20 states that the church was "regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country." "This made historians look for one specific statute that they could point to," Stott said.

But early statements like this could just as easily mean "we organized legally. We organized according to what lawyers call the common law — which is kind of the accepted general practice even though there is not necessarily a statute that governs it." Stott said the most common way to organize a religious group was as a common-law religious society. The model for an organizational meeting to create a religious society wasn't found in the statutes. Instead, the early believers had to look at the practices of other churches. Most religious societies were not new churches but branches of established churches. They each had their own particular way of organizing. Presbyterians, for example, required two ruling elders who gave notice of the meeting, conducted a worship service at the meeting, elected the ruling elders at the meeting, set apart the elders and conducted other ordinances such as baptisms.

The type of meeting conducted on April 6, 1830, fits this pattern, according to Stott. Unlike an incorporation meeting — where the whole point of gathering is to elect trustees — the organization of the LDS Church was about choosing two presiding elders. The sacrament was given, ordinations were performed and baptisms were completed. Another indication that the church's first legal status was as a religious society, according to Stott, is there is no mention made of any "incorporation," only of "organizing." The primary concern of Joseph Smith, Stott said, was to organize according to the laws of God. At the same time, it was important to comply with the laws of man. The legal evidence appears to be that the organization was what was known as a religious society — a church that began with six and would one day number in the millions.

True, the church wasn't incorporated in 1830 (most weren't because there was no need. Today there is need.), but having it as a corporation doesn't change anything. It's still defined within the bounds of a church being organized according to the laws of the country. And yes, the president of the corporation is the owner, which is no different than when the church was restored with Joseph Smith and he being the owner of church property, which was the case. Christ still leads his church via revelation to His Prophets and Apostles just like he did with Joseph. Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you. When/if the Snufferite temple is built (most likely it will be a commercial building remodeled) it will have to be deeded to someone or some entity. I predict if that day ever comes this whole corporation thing won't be that big of a deal anymore

[underdog]

Maybe Joseph Smith forgot about that part of the Book of Mormon. Poor Joseph didn't stand a chance because as soon as the church was organized by the commandment of God, then BOOM! it's a church, and all church's are corrupt. I suggest you think things through just a bit more, underdog.

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—

2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;

3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen.

So we are all agreeing then that the lds church is a church. Church of snuffer is a church.

That Moroni saw our day and warned us that all churches would become polluted?

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Whom is moroni speaking to? Us. Other churches won't receive that message. Who would want us thinking that we excluded from Moroni's warning. Satan.

Why not include ourself? It will only cause humility and repentance if we do. If we do not it will cause......... pride which is what he was warning about. Verse 37 is also a bit telling since we as a church went away from what god specified as what is to be done with tithing

Excellent point. Yes, the BoM was written to the Gentile Mormons. Like Shadow and Mark encourage us to think it through, obviously the warnings in the BoM were meant to be read and applied by the readers, and not to be applied to "the other guy."

I confess I fell into that trap before I read Avraham Gileadi's book called The Last Days back in 1993. That was a key message of that book. And after reading and heeding that message, I've come to know it's true.

Verse 32 is a bit telling too:

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

How is it possible that paying money is a requirement for baptism / forgiveness of sins? The Church's prescribed baptism questions include committing the person to paying tithing! Or is this not an accurate description of what actually is happening? I would imagine that if a ward leadership went "rogue" and actually taught the Gospel as the Scriptures teach and baptized people who repented of their sins, that the Church might ultimately excommunicate leaders who were involved in that. What do you think? Can you imagine excommunicating members for baptizing people who accepted Christ and who repented of their sins? Oh wait, that is happening.

[Mark]

Exactly dr. This has been covered before ad naseum. Moroni referred over and over again to that day when the Book of Mormon would come forth. Read verse 26-28:

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

That is why The Father and The Son told Joseph to join NONE of the churches because they were ALL wrong. The Lord was clearly not referring to the restored church brought forth thru the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph. Neither was Moroni. Think it thru here.

Mark,

We agree that, to the Lord, everything is one eternal round. This is hard for us linear people to understand. But to the Lord, everything (past, present, and future) is before Him. So when He prophesies, we have to keep this in mind. That's why certain prophetic statements (like the one about to be fulfilled tomorrow on 9/23/17) is being fulfilled AGAIN.

Take verse 27 which you quoted. What or whose "blood of saints" was crying to the Lord when Joseph was alive when this book was published in March of 1830? Perhaps Joseph's blood is what this refers to? I think it's quite obvious that Joseph's blood is referred to here. He was murdered due to secret combinations and the works of darkness, including many tares that surrounded him. He was a sheep in the midst of wolves. To think he wouldn't have been surrounded by demons is to confess complete naivety! You do confess he WOULD be surrounded by agents of Satan? You do acknowledge that Satan would target him, and any organization he would found?

Take 2 Nephi 28 which offers very similar language as Moroni:

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

You are really just making my point dog. Of course Joseph's blood would be included. So would many other Saints who were murdered and persecuted and mobbed by wicked and perverse men. The Tares of Joseph's day were the excommunicates and persecutors who openly called for Joseph's demise both inside and outside the restored church. Now who were Joseph's stanch supporters and allies? Lets see. Hmm. Brigham Young? Heber C Kimball? John Taylor? Wilford Woodruff? Parley P Pratt? Orson Pratt? Willard Richards? Ezra T Benson? George A Smith? Get the picture? Those who stayed faithful to TCOJCOLDS were those who kept the church going and threw their full support behind Brigham Youngs administration. The point I was making before was that Moroni was talking about apostate Christianity and its corrupt leadership that existed at the time of Joseph Smith. He was not looking at and referring To the leadership of TCOJCOLDS 2017.

Tares LOOK LIKE wheat. Can you name one leadership (inner circle) tare back in the day who didn't get exed by Joseph? Can you name one leadership tare today? Or do they not exist? Judas existed. So who are the Judases of today? Even of Joseph's day. Or did Joseph ex them all? Perhaps his murder was related to one he didn't get? Christians are pretty good at forgiving and thinking the best of others. Joseph, being a true prophet, was presumably VERY developed at tolerance, and love, and forgiveness. Think with me. Who is the best person to target for infiltration, one who is inherently distrustful and on the lookout for the evil inside you, or the one who turns the other cheek, and forgives 70x7?

I don't deal with maybe/possibly/perhaps agendas. The tares showed themselves very clearly by openly rebelling against Joseph and his mission as the dispensational Prophet. Go read your church history. Give Joseph a little credit. He knew who his friends were and who plotted against him. Those who remained true to Joseph and faithful to his mission carried on IN THE CHURCH RESTORED THRU HIM and became stalwart leaders in that restored church and Priesthood. Don't get caught up in a bunch of subtle accusatory conspiracy garbage about those who stayed true to Joseph and continued to build up the church and administer the affairs of the Kingdom such as Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball and John Taylor and on and on. You will become an accuser of the Brethren and will reap what you sow.

[Ezra]

He is not referring to "every single church ever built" he is referring to those that are built up with perverse intentions like forgiving sins for money, getting gain, etc, "32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS church was not "built up" for this purpose.

Exactly dr. This has been covered before ad naseum. Moroni referred over and over again to that day when the Book of Mormon would come forth. Read verse 26-28:

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

That is why The Father and The Son told Joseph to join NONE of the churches because they were ALL wrong. The Lord was clearly not referring to the restored church brought forth thru the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph. Neither was Moroni. Think it thru here.

Mark,

We agree that, to the Lord, everything is one eternal round. This is hard for us linear people to understand. But to the Lord, everything (past, present, and future) is before Him. So when He prophesies, we have to keep this in mind. That's why certain prophetic statements (like the one about to be fulfilled tomorrow on 9/23/17) is being fulfilled AGAIN.

Take verse 27 which you quoted. What or whose "blood of saints" was crying to the Lord when Joseph was alive when this book was published in March of 1830? Perhaps Joseph's blood is what this refers to? I think it's quite obvious that Joseph's blood is referred to here. He was murdered due to secret combinations and the works of darkness, including many tares that surrounded him. He was a sheep in the midst of wolves. To think he wouldn't have been surrounded by demons is to confess complete naivety! You do confess he WOULD be surrounded by agents of Satan? You do acknowledge that Satan would target him, and any organization he would found?

Take 2 Nephi 28 which offers very similar language as Moroni:

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

You are really just making my point dog. Of course Joseph's blood would be included. So would many other Saints who were murdered and persecuted and mobbed by wicked and perverse men. The Tares of Joseph's day were the excommunicates and persecutors who openly called for Joseph's demise both inside and outside the restored church. Now who were Joseph's stanch supporters and allies? Lets see. Hmm. Brigham Young? Heber C Kimball? John Taylor? Wilford Woodruff? Parley P Pratt? Orson Pratt? Willard Richards? Ezra T Benson? George A Smith? Get the picture? Those who stayed faithful to TCOJCOLDS were those who kept the church going and threw their full support behind Brigham Youngs administration. The point I was making before was that Moroni was talking about apostate Christianity and its corrupt leadership that existed at the time of Joseph Smith. He was not looking at and referring To the leadership of TCOJCOLDS 2017.

Why not? I have no problem with understanding and believing that the lds church none will stay it. Yet that curruption in the last days will be there. It's a body of people who are not perfect. It's leaders are people who are not perfect.

The thinking that it's somehow untouchable is err. A body can have curruption yet still function.

[underdog]

I invite you to check out the link I provided above and educate yourself. Incorporation did happen, but in the dark of night and not on April 6, 1830, but in the 20th century. What the "Church" is ACTUALLY is a corporation sole, with all assets literally owned by the president of the corporation. Same way the Catholic Church is organized. The actual name of the corporation is Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know you don't want to go "there," but this stuff is all available for reading on the Internet. It's well documented, with actual corporate document images available for all to see.

As to what happened on April 6, 1830, I've researched this heavily.

Here's a good article from an "approved source" actually. It basically says that a religious society was established under common law, as that's the way churches were "organized" back then. There were no strings attached back then. No mobster IRS to deal with. There was actually separation of church and state. When strings get attached, a PC culture is born and then truth takes a back seat to what the government says is permissible. Can't serve God and Mammon though, can you? THUS, Denver's approach is much wiser than ORGANIZING anything which can be controlled, influenced or infiltrated. The wisdom still stands. I don't believe God approved nor approves now of billions of dollars going into the hands of one man, as happens under a Corporate Sole. I also don't believe that the Common Law Religious Society Joseph established resembles anything to what the Church is today. It was decentralized back in Joseph's day (as DC 107 made permanent) and remained that way until B.Y. took over and centralized all authority under the 12, with him as the boss.

BYU Symposium: LDS Church's first legal status
By Michael De Groote@degroote
Published: March 13, 2010 12:18 a.m.

PROVO, Utah — For years historians thought that when the Mormon church was originally created it followed a particular 19th-century New York statute. But David Stott, an attorney from New York, found that the church was complying with a different set of legal rules. "When seeking out what legally took place on April 6, 1830, historians have assumed the church members tried to form a 'religious corporation,'" Stott said. But they didn't. This doesn't mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (then called the Church of Christ) was operating illegally. It does mean, however, that some common assumptions about what happened on April 6 may need to be revised. Stott spoke on Friday, March 12, during the BYU Studies Symposium. He gave a lawyer's perspective on what happened on the day the LDS Church was organized. There were two basic ways to form churches in 1830 in New York. One way was to create a "religious corporation."

The other was to form a "religious society." A quick look at the statutory requirements to create a religious corporation might make it seem that was what Joseph Smith Jr., Oliver Cowdery and other believers were doing. After all, a corporation seems to be a good idea — it provides for orderly succession, property management and standard ways of entering into contracts. Stott said to form a religious corporation required an announcement of when and where the church was to be organized, it would take place at a meetinghouse, two elders would preside, a group of trustees would be elected, and it would be certified with a recorded document. Although the April 6 meeting was announced and the meeting place, the Peter Whitmer farm, was a recognized place for the believers to gather, the other requirements don't match.

The "two elders" sole purpose in a religious corporation was to preside over the election of trustees — this didn't match the role of the new church's two elders, Joseph Smith and Cowdery — whose authority was over the church. The six original members of the church are never described as being trustees. And, according to Stott, no government document memorializing any incorporation has ever been found. So if the organization of the church wasn't a corporation, where did that idea come from? Doctrine and Covenants 20 states that the church was "regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country." "This made historians look for one specific statute that they could point to," Stott said.

But early statements like this could just as easily mean "we organized legally. We organized according to what lawyers call the common law — which is kind of the accepted general practice even though there is not necessarily a statute that governs it." Stott said the most common way to organize a religious group was as a common-law religious society. The model for an organizational meeting to create a religious society wasn't found in the statutes. Instead, the early believers had to look at the practices of other churches. Most religious societies were not new churches but branches of established churches. They each had their own particular way of organizing. Presbyterians, for example, required two ruling elders who gave notice of the meeting, conducted a worship service at the meeting, elected the ruling elders at the meeting, set apart the elders and conducted other ordinances such as baptisms.

The type of meeting conducted on April 6, 1830, fits this pattern, according to Stott. Unlike an incorporation meeting — where the whole point of gathering is to elect trustees — the organization of the LDS Church was about choosing two presiding elders. The sacrament was given, ordinations were performed and baptisms were completed. Another indication that the church's first legal status was as a religious society, according to Stott, is there is no mention made of any "incorporation," only of "organizing." The primary concern of Joseph Smith, Stott said, was to organize according to the laws of God. At the same time, it was important to comply with the laws of man. The legal evidence appears to be that the organization was what was known as a religious society — a church that began with six and would one day number in the millions.

True, the church wasn't incorporated in 1830 (most weren't because there was no need. Today there is need.), but having it as a corporation doesn't change anything. It's still defined within the bounds of a church being organized according to the laws of the country. And yes, the president of the corporation is the owner, which is no different than when the church was restored with Joseph Smith and he being the owner of church property, which was the case. Christ still leads his church via revelation to His Prophets and Apostles just like he did with Joseph. Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you. When/if the Snufferite temple is built (most likely it will be a commercial building remodeled) it will have to be deeded to someone or some entity. I predict if that day ever comes this whole corporation thing won't be that big of a deal anymore

Forgive me for exposing you, but I caught you in a little cover-up. It's too bad, because your above response was the closest thing to a soft underbelly that I've seen you show. It wasn't a formal concession or even an "Oh shucks, I was wrong. You got me," but it resembled it, sort of.

You manually deleted your previous comment. Let me add it back to the record:

I'm not sure if you make things difficult for yourself on purpose or what the deal is but the scripture quoted above is regarding the "church". And what was to be done with it? It was to be "organized". How is it to be organized? "...agreeable to the laws of our country".
So organize the church so it's agreeable with the laws of the country. Oh, incorporate it.
You readily admit that Joseph was a Prophet but are you aware of what he did with the church?

Guess you didn't want people seeing your snide remarks that were inaccurate.

As for your comments above. You're just making up stuff due to your cognitive dissonance. So you SAY Joseph owned everything, just like TSM owns everything under the rules of the Corporation Sole? You said it, so it must be the case!

And you SAY having a corporation sole is all hunky dory because it's incorporated according to the laws of the country. You said it, so it must be so! My good brother, I find it hard to believe if you are attracted to this site (a FREEDOM Forum) that you don't have an inkling of how the government handing out licenses corrupts things. The grantor of the license is the master! Don't behave? Get your license revoked. The IRS is the policeman who ensures you WILL obey your master -- the government. I am quite sure you understand this. Surely there have been threads here that have discussed this over the years. As well, what I just said is a hallmark of tyrannies throughout the ages. It's Socialism 101. Why do you think the Church has purged so many conservatives out of its ranks in the last 30 years? Liberty-loving folks cause trouble. Government-blessed institutions require membership to be servile. "Yes Massa! I gonna do whachu want me do."

"Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you." Look at you. Don't want me to leave the plantation? Just want me to shut up and do what I'm told? "We got a good life here. Now you behave yourself!"

Now you make a smart prediction, and I will say "You told me so" on a certain condition. What will be the condition of me saying to you, "You told me so"? The condition will be if that building -- the Temple -- is put in the name of Denver Snuffer or some few people, and it's done without a vote and under the dark of night, as the Church did when it converted everything over to a Corporation Sole in the 1920's.

I will also say that if Denver is a true servant, there is no way under heaven or earth that the temple property is linked to him in any way, without a vote. If he turns out to be corrupt, then secretly putting the temple in his name will be an obvious sign of corruption and apostasy. So you make a good point there, if it turns out to be the case. And I will drop him and the temple like a hot potato. Perhaps that's what he's angling for. Perhaps he's looking to get a building out of all this preaching and teaching he's doing?

[drtanner]

Why not include ourself?

Because that is not who he is referring to.

[shadow]

I invite you to check out the link I provided above and educate yourself. Incorporation did happen, but in the dark of night and not on April 6, 1830, but in the 20th century. What the "Church" is ACTUALLY is a corporation sole, with all assets literally owned by the president of the corporation. Same way the Catholic Church is organized. The actual name of the corporation is Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know you don't want to go "there," but this stuff is all available for reading on the Internet. It's well documented, with actual corporate document images available for all to see.

As to what happened on April 6, 1830, I've researched this heavily.

Here's a good article from an "approved source" actually. It basically says that a religious society was established under common law, as that's the way churches were "organized" back then. There were no strings attached back then. No mobster IRS to deal with. There was actually separation of church and state. When strings get attached, a PC culture is born and then truth takes a back seat to what the government says is permissible. Can't serve God and Mammon though, can you? THUS, Denver's approach is much wiser than ORGANIZING anything which can be controlled, influenced or infiltrated. The wisdom still stands. I don't believe God approved nor approves now of billions of dollars going into the hands of one man, as happens under a Corporate Sole. I also don't believe that the Common Law Religious Society Joseph established resembles anything to what the Church is today. It was decentralized back in Joseph's day (as DC 107 made permanent) and remained that way until B.Y. took over and centralized all authority under the 12, with him as the boss.

BYU Symposium: LDS Church's first legal status
By Michael De Groote@degroote
Published: March 13, 2010 12:18 a.m.

PROVO, Utah — For years historians thought that when the Mormon church was originally created it followed a particular 19th-century New York statute. But David Stott, an attorney from New York, found that the church was complying with a different set of legal rules. "When seeking out what legally took place on April 6, 1830, historians have assumed the church members tried to form a 'religious corporation,'" Stott said. But they didn't. This doesn't mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (then called the Church of Christ) was operating illegally. It does mean, however, that some common assumptions about what happened on April 6 may need to be revised. Stott spoke on Friday, March 12, during the BYU Studies Symposium. He gave a lawyer's perspective on what happened on the day the LDS Church was organized. There were two basic ways to form churches in 1830 in New York. One way was to create a "religious corporation."

The other was to form a "religious society." A quick look at the statutory requirements to create a religious corporation might make it seem that was what Joseph Smith Jr., Oliver Cowdery and other believers were doing. After all, a corporation seems to be a good idea — it provides for orderly succession, property management and standard ways of entering into contracts. Stott said to form a religious corporation required an announcement of when and where the church was to be organized, it would take place at a meetinghouse, two elders would preside, a group of trustees would be elected, and it would be certified with a recorded document. Although the April 6 meeting was announced and the meeting place, the Peter Whitmer farm, was a recognized place for the believers to gather, the other requirements don't match.

The "two elders" sole purpose in a religious corporation was to preside over the election of trustees — this didn't match the role of the new church's two elders, Joseph Smith and Cowdery — whose authority was over the church. The six original members of the church are never described as being trustees. And, according to Stott, no government document memorializing any incorporation has ever been found. So if the organization of the church wasn't a corporation, where did that idea come from? Doctrine and Covenants 20 states that the church was "regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country." "This made historians look for one specific statute that they could point to," Stott said.

But early statements like this could just as easily mean "we organized legally. We organized according to what lawyers call the common law — which is kind of the accepted general practice even though there is not necessarily a statute that governs it." Stott said the most common way to organize a religious group was as a common-law religious society. The model for an organizational meeting to create a religious society wasn't found in the statutes. Instead, the early believers had to look at the practices of other churches. Most religious societies were not new churches but branches of established churches. They each had their own particular way of organizing. Presbyterians, for example, required two ruling elders who gave notice of the meeting, conducted a worship service at the meeting, elected the ruling elders at the meeting, set apart the elders and conducted other ordinances such as baptisms.

The type of meeting conducted on April 6, 1830, fits this pattern, according to Stott. Unlike an incorporation meeting — where the whole point of gathering is to elect trustees — the organization of the LDS Church was about choosing two presiding elders. The sacrament was given, ordinations were performed and baptisms were completed. Another indication that the church's first legal status was as a religious society, according to Stott, is there is no mention made of any "incorporation," only of "organizing." The primary concern of Joseph Smith, Stott said, was to organize according to the laws of God. At the same time, it was important to comply with the laws of man. The legal evidence appears to be that the organization was what was known as a religious society — a church that began with six and would one day number in the millions.

True, the church wasn't incorporated in 1830 (most weren't because there was no need. Today there is need.), but having it as a corporation doesn't change anything. It's still defined within the bounds of a church being organized according to the laws of the country. And yes, the president of the corporation is the owner, which is no different than when the church was restored with Joseph Smith and he being the owner of church property, which was the case. Christ still leads his church via revelation to His Prophets and Apostles just like he did with Joseph. Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you. When/if the Snufferite temple is built (most likely it will be a commercial building remodeled) it will have to be deeded to someone or some entity. I predict if that day ever comes this whole corporation thing won't be that big of a deal anymore

Forgive me for exposing you, but I caught you in a little cover-up. It's too bad, because your above response was the closest thing to a soft underbelly that I've seen you show. It wasn't a formal concession or even an "Oh shucks, I was wrong. You got me," but it resembled it, sort of.

You manually deleted your previous comment. Let me add it back to the record:

I'm not sure if you make things difficult for yourself on purpose or what the deal is but the scripture quoted above is regarding the "church". And what was to be done with it? It was to be "organized". How is it to be organized? "...agreeable to the laws of our country".
So organize the church so it's agreeable with the laws of the country. Oh, incorporate it.
You readily admit that Joseph was a Prophet but are you aware of what he did with the church?

Guess you didn't want people seeing your snide remarks that were inaccurate.

As for your comments above. You're just making up stuff due to your cognitive dissonance. So you SAY Joseph owned everything, just like TSM owns everything under the rules of the Corporation Sole? You said it, so it must be the case!

And you SAY having a corporation sole is all hunky dory because it's incorporated according to the laws of the country. You said it, so it must be so! My good brother, I find it hard to believe if you are attracted to this site (a FREEDOM Forum) that you have an inkling of how the government handing out licenses corrupts things. The grantor of the license is the master! Don't behave? Get your license revoked. The IRS is the policeman who ensures you WILL obey your master -- the government. I am quite sure you understand this. Surely there have been threads here that have discussed this over the years. As well, what I just said is a hallmark of tyrannies throughout the ages. It's Socialism 101. Why do you think the Church has purged so many conservatives out of its ranks in the last 30 years? Liberty-loving folks cause trouble. Government-blessed institutions require membership to be servile. "Yes Massa! I gonna do whachu want me do."

"Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you." Look at you. Don't want me to leave the plantation? Just want me to shut up and do what I'm told? "We got a good life here. Now you behave yourself!"

Now you make a smart prediction, and I will say "You told me so" on a certain condition. What will be the condition of me saying to you, "You told me so"? The condition will be if that building -- the Temple -- is put in the name of Denver Snuffer or some few people, and it's done without a vote and under the dark of night, as the Church did when it converted everything over to a Corporation Sole in the 1920's.

I will also say that if Denver is a true servant, there is no way under heaven or earth that the temple property is linked to him in any way, without a vote. If he turns out to be corrupt, then secretly putting the temple in his name will be an obvious sign of corruption and apostasy. So you make a good point there, if it turns out to be the case. And I will drop him and the temple like a hot potato. Perhaps that's what he's angling for. Perhaps he's looking to get a building out of all this preaching and teaching he's doing?

I didn't delete or change or edit anything. Liar much?

[Ezra]

Why not include ourself?

Because that is not who he is referring to.

2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.

[Zathura]

Why not include ourself?

Because that is not who he is referring to.

2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.

"Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)" (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992,)

-Elder Parry

[drtanner]

Why not include ourself?

Because that is not who he is referring to.

2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.

"Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)" (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992,)

-Elder Parry

key words "members of the church"