Bravo... Can you see how easy it is to discredit sources and quotes and potential quotes from over 100 years ago. See how easy it is to discredit pretty much everybody by calling their character into place when they are no here to testify. Yet we are left with a similar quote in multiple places.lemuel wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2017, 7:21 pme-eye2.0 wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2017, 5:44 pm I actually give Shadow a lot of credit here for his work in digging up this quote from Joseph Smith. Understanding who he is dealing with and the thought process of Snufferism in that Joseph Smith was the last true prophet holding the keys it makes sense to quote him. Now from the LDS prospective by either Joseph Smith or the current handbook the excommunication was just. - Makes more sense to use the one Snuffer's followers believe as the other example probably wouldn't hold water to them.
as for what Snuffer said that would fall under criticism:
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Crit ... ch_leaders
You can whittle away as many of his comments as you like but it's obvious there was criticism true or not even Joseph Smith disagreed with what Denver did.
“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” - Joseph Smith
This particular quote is cited as follows:
History of the Church, 3:385; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 2, 1839, in Montrose, Iowa; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards.
Therefore, this quote is cited from three sources:
History of the Church by B.H. Roberts;
Wilford Woodruff
Willard Richards
The quote does indeed appear in Source 1, History of the Church, but that's not the original source. History of the Church simply lifted the quote from the other two sources, as follows:
First is Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, where we find the lengthy notes Woodruff took during the meeting in question. Trouble is, Woodruff's Journal completely omits this quote, though it directly (and without interruption) supplies the rest of the sermon used in History of the Church.
The other source is Willard Richards' Pocket Companion, which does contain this quote.
OK, so got that so far? Woodruff omits this paragraph from the sermon. Richards has this paragraph in the middle of the sermon. Woodruff, no. Richards, yes.
Woodruff, who was present at the meeting in question, is considered the most reliable source because he recorded the notes of the meeting while in attendance. But this quote does not appear in that record. The sermon before and after this quote appears there uninterrupted, but the quoted paragraph is completely absent.
Richards' Pocket Companion is actually a collection of material Willard Richards copied from other sources. Therefore, though this material appears there, Richards was not actually present when Joseph gave this sermon, and Richards copied the material from elsewhere, most likely Wilford Woodruff’s journal. As to how the quote in question got into Richards' Pocket Companion while NOT appearing in the original record is a mystery. Nobody knows where it came from. It is therefore hearsay and not a historical record.
We are left to wonder where Richards obtained the quote and why he stuck it in the middle of a sermon he didn’t hear Joseph give. There is no original source that contains this quotation, and Richards was on a mission in England when Joseph was supposed to have said it.
http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-3.html
Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’”
William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”The statement can be found in the Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 367 in an address by Orson Hyde entitled "Punctual Payment of Debts," given at the tabernacle on May 5, 1870 while Hyde was serving as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
In this sermon he chastised the saints for being slow to pay their debts, and encouraged them to get out of debt.
Here are the relevant facts:
Hyde had long association with Joseph Smith as one of the original apostles. He undoubtedly heard Joseph speak on many subjects. Therefore he could have heard Joseph make this statement.
Hyde's relationship with Joseph was rocky. He was twice removed from the Quorum of the Twelve and once excommunicated. He also signed the affidavit against Joseph Smith that resulted in Joseph’s imprisonment in Liberty Jail and contributed to the Mormon War of 1838.
Hyde was 39 years old when Joseph Smith died.
This quote is from a sermon Hyde gave May 5, 1870 at age 65, at least 26 years after Joseph could have said it.
Hyde makes no other statement of source, circumstances when, where and to whom Joseph said it, whether he recorded it in writing, or how he remembers the wording precisely. Thus it is not a historical record, but rather is uncorroborated hearsay.
The quote is placed in the talk seemingly at random, without any context. It certainly does not relate to the topic of paying debts.
But...Hyde was an apostle when he made this statement! In fact he was President of the quorum! Therefore he is trustworthy...right?
Well...Hyde was indeed an apostle at the time he made this statement, however, he was also an apostle when he swore an affidavit against Joseph Smith and the saints that resulted in Joseph’s imprisonment in Liberty Jail. Are you going to accept his affidavit as inspired as well? Position is NOT a reliable indicator of truth.
viewtopic.php?t=28544
Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy.”The source is listed as a statement by William G. Nelson, published in the Young Woman’s Journal. This statement was published in 1906, 62 years after the death of Joseph Smith.
William G. Nelson, the source of this statement, was born in Jefferson County, Illinois, June 10, 1831; associated with the Saints in Illinois and in the West, where he served as a ward bishop and a member of the high council at Oxford, Idaho. The facts surrounding this quote are as follows:
Nelson appears to have been in a position as a boy to hear Joseph Smith make this statement in Nauvoo.
Nelson would have been 13 years, 2 weeks, and 3 days old when Joseph Smith was killed.
Nelson published the quote at least 62 years after hearing it, when his age was approximately 75 years.
Nelson makes no other statement of source, circumstances when, where and to whom Joseph said it, whether Nelson recorded it in writing, or how he remembers the wording precisely. It is therefore hearsay, and not a historical record. There is no contemporary collaborating source.
This statement was published in an adolescent periodical magazine among other faith-promoting and folksy stories about many topics. Essentially, the Mormon Seventeen. It is neither doctrine nor scripture.
Some difficulties with what is taught are as follows:
Depending on whose account you read, the majority of the twelve were in open rebellion to Joseph Smith in Kirtland.
The records of the church were recorded by the official church historian, John Whitmer, who took them with him when he left the church, requiring a new history to be written. Therefore to stay with the records of the church at that time would have required staying with Whitmer in Missouri, outside the church.
If the "majority of the twelve" doctrine was openly taught by Joseph Smith, there would have been no leadership succession crisis at Joseph's death. The church members would have known to follow the twelve. But no such thing happened.
Also, if this doctrine were known to Brigham Young at the time of the succession crisis, he could have argued that Joseph taught the members to stay with the majority of the twelve. But Brigham made no such argument.
Nelson could have based his “recollection” on the following quote, published 4 years earlier:Ezra T. Clark was born in Lawrence, Illinois, November 24, 1823. He died in Farmington, Utah October 17, 1901. Relevant facts are as follows:
Clark appears to have been in a position to hear Joseph Smith make this statement in Nauvoo.
Clark was 20 years old when Joseph died.
This quote is from a testimony Clark gave July 24, 1901 at age 77.
Clark published this statement at least 57 years after hearing it.
Clark makes no other statement of source, circumstances when, where and to whom Joseph said it, whether he recorded it in writing, or how he remembers the wording precisely. It is therefore hearsay and not a historical record. There is no other contemporary collaborating source.
This statement was published in an adolescent periodical magazine among other faith-promoting stories about many topics. It is neither doctrine nor scripture.
Within the same testimony, Clark makes several demonstrably false statements about historical events, as well as statements about the content and timing of Joseph Smith’s last sermon, which Clark claims to have witnessed, thus showing his memory unreliable and at least some quotations of Smith fabricated.http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html
So how do we know if this statement is true or false? Fruits my friend - fruits. We have seen it over and over through history - Even Laman and Lemuel fell into this trap. This doctrine is eternal as the quote says. So why defend it? Are not Thomas, underdog and all those who follow Snuffer a testimony to the qoute? Would they refute it? Have not all of them disparaged the prophets today and then apostatized from the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints? Have they repented. Don't they admit they left the church?
By the fruits we can see this statement is true. Why would you fight against where it came from if in all reality the truthfulness is apparent? I actually do believe Joseph Smith said it but I wasn't there - I do have an angle that the people of Snuffer don't and that is it has been said by prophets after so it's really not a question to me at all.
So why would you want to debate the quotes? My only guess is that if you are a current member that wants to speak ill of others (leaders) but also want to maintain that you are not an apostate - wolves hate to get exposed.
You didn't respond to the link so I am assuming you agree that Snuffer did indeed preach against the leaders of the church and there is a lot of proof.
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Crit ... ch_leaders
I really do hope things turn out better for you than they did for Lemuel in your path for whatever it is you are searching for. I wonder how much Lemuel piggy backed of Laman because it was easy. The characteristics of Lemuel are interesting and the list is lengthy but he had a lot of opportunities to change but lacked the ability to heed the words of the prophet -interesting that you picked Lemuel as a name.