Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

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drtanner
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Posts: 1850

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by drtanner »

Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.

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shadow
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Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by shadow »

underdog wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:17 pm
shadow wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:45 pm
underdog wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:29 pm

I invite you to check out the link I provided above and educate yourself. Incorporation did happen, but in the dark of night and not on April 6, 1830, but in the 20th century. What the "Church" is ACTUALLY is a corporation sole, with all assets literally owned by the president of the corporation. Same way the Catholic Church is organized. The actual name of the corporation is Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know you don't want to go "there," but this stuff is all available for reading on the Internet. It's well documented, with actual corporate document images available for all to see.

As to what happened on April 6, 1830, I've researched this heavily.

Here's a good article from an "approved source" actually. It basically says that a religious society was established under common law, as that's the way churches were "organized" back then. There were no strings attached back then. No mobster IRS to deal with. There was actually separation of church and state. When strings get attached, a PC culture is born and then truth takes a back seat to what the government says is permissible. Can't serve God and Mammon though, can you? THUS, Denver's approach is much wiser than ORGANIZING anything which can be controlled, influenced or infiltrated. The wisdom still stands. I don't believe God approved nor approves now of billions of dollars going into the hands of one man, as happens under a Corporate Sole. I also don't believe that the Common Law Religious Society Joseph established resembles anything to what the Church is today. It was decentralized back in Joseph's day (as DC 107 made permanent) and remained that way until B.Y. took over and centralized all authority under the 12, with him as the boss.
BYU Symposium: LDS Church's first legal status
By Michael De Groote@degroote
Published: March 13, 2010 12:18 a.m.

PROVO, Utah — For years historians thought that when the Mormon church was originally created it followed a particular 19th-century New York statute. But David Stott, an attorney from New York, found that the church was complying with a different set of legal rules. "When seeking out what legally took place on April 6, 1830, historians have assumed the church members tried to form a 'religious corporation,'" Stott said. But they didn't. This doesn't mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (then called the Church of Christ) was operating illegally. It does mean, however, that some common assumptions about what happened on April 6 may need to be revised. Stott spoke on Friday, March 12, during the BYU Studies Symposium. He gave a lawyer's perspective on what happened on the day the LDS Church was organized. There were two basic ways to form churches in 1830 in New York. One way was to create a "religious corporation."

The other was to form a "religious society." A quick look at the statutory requirements to create a religious corporation might make it seem that was what Joseph Smith Jr., Oliver Cowdery and other believers were doing. After all, a corporation seems to be a good idea — it provides for orderly succession, property management and standard ways of entering into contracts. Stott said to form a religious corporation required an announcement of when and where the church was to be organized, it would take place at a meetinghouse, two elders would preside, a group of trustees would be elected, and it would be certified with a recorded document. Although the April 6 meeting was announced and the meeting place, the Peter Whitmer farm, was a recognized place for the believers to gather, the other requirements don't match.

The "two elders" sole purpose in a religious corporation was to preside over the election of trustees — this didn't match the role of the new church's two elders, Joseph Smith and Cowdery — whose authority was over the church. The six original members of the church are never described as being trustees. And, according to Stott, no government document memorializing any incorporation has ever been found. So if the organization of the church wasn't a corporation, where did that idea come from? Doctrine and Covenants 20 states that the church was "regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country." "This made historians look for one specific statute that they could point to," Stott said.

But early statements like this could just as easily mean "we organized legally. We organized according to what lawyers call the common law — which is kind of the accepted general practice even though there is not necessarily a statute that governs it." Stott said the most common way to organize a religious group was as a common-law religious society. The model for an organizational meeting to create a religious society wasn't found in the statutes. Instead, the early believers had to look at the practices of other churches. Most religious societies were not new churches but branches of established churches. They each had their own particular way of organizing. Presbyterians, for example, required two ruling elders who gave notice of the meeting, conducted a worship service at the meeting, elected the ruling elders at the meeting, set apart the elders and conducted other ordinances such as baptisms.

The type of meeting conducted on April 6, 1830, fits this pattern, according to Stott. Unlike an incorporation meeting — where the whole point of gathering is to elect trustees — the organization of the LDS Church was about choosing two presiding elders. The sacrament was given, ordinations were performed and baptisms were completed. Another indication that the church's first legal status was as a religious society, according to Stott, is there is no mention made of any "incorporation," only of "organizing." The primary concern of Joseph Smith, Stott said, was to organize according to the laws of God. At the same time, it was important to comply with the laws of man. The legal evidence appears to be that the organization was what was known as a religious society — a church that began with six and would one day number in the millions.
True, the church wasn't incorporated in 1830 (most weren't because there was no need. Today there is need.), but having it as a corporation doesn't change anything. It's still defined within the bounds of a church being organized according to the laws of the country. And yes, the president of the corporation is the owner, which is no different than when the church was restored with Joseph Smith and he being the owner of church property, which was the case. Christ still leads his church via revelation to His Prophets and Apostles just like he did with Joseph. Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you. When/if the Snufferite temple is built (most likely it will be a commercial building remodeled) it will have to be deeded to someone or some entity. I predict if that day ever comes this whole corporation thing won't be that big of a deal anymore ;)
Forgive me for exposing you, but I caught you in a little cover-up. It's too bad, because your above response was the closest thing to a soft underbelly that I've seen you show. It wasn't a formal concession or even an "Oh shucks, I was wrong. You got me," but it resembled it, sort of.

You manually deleted your previous comment. Let me add it back to the record:
I'm not sure if you make things difficult for yourself on purpose or what the deal is but the scripture quoted above is regarding the "church". And what was to be done with it? It was to be "organized". How is it to be organized? "...agreeable to the laws of our country".
So organize the church so it's agreeable with the laws of the country. Oh, incorporate it.
You readily admit that Joseph was a Prophet but are you aware of what he did with the church?
Guess you didn't want people seeing your snide remarks that were inaccurate.

As for your comments above. You're just making up stuff due to your cognitive dissonance. So you SAY Joseph owned everything, just like TSM owns everything under the rules of the Corporation Sole? You said it, so it must be the case!

And you SAY having a corporation sole is all hunky dory because it's incorporated according to the laws of the country. You said it, so it must be so! My good brother, I find it hard to believe if you are attracted to this site (a FREEDOM Forum) that you have an inkling of how the government handing out licenses corrupts things. The grantor of the license is the master! Don't behave? Get your license revoked. The IRS is the policeman who ensures you WILL obey your master -- the government. I am quite sure you understand this. Surely there have been threads here that have discussed this over the years. As well, what I just said is a hallmark of tyrannies throughout the ages. It's Socialism 101. Why do you think the Church has purged so many conservatives out of its ranks in the last 30 years? Liberty-loving folks cause trouble. Government-blessed institutions require membership to be servile. "Yes Massa! I gonna do whachu want me do."

"Hopefully the church being organized in a corporation hasn't been a stumbling block for you." Look at you. Don't want me to leave the plantation? Just want me to shut up and do what I'm told? "We got a good life here. Now you behave yourself!"

Now you make a smart prediction, and I will say "You told me so" on a certain condition. What will be the condition of me saying to you, "You told me so"? The condition will be if that building -- the Temple -- is put in the name of Denver Snuffer or some few people, and it's done without a vote and under the dark of night, as the Church did when it converted everything over to a Corporation Sole in the 1920's.

I will also say that if Denver is a true servant, there is no way under heaven or earth that the temple property is linked to him in any way, without a vote. If he turns out to be corrupt, then secretly putting the temple in his name will be an obvious sign of corruption and apostasy. So you make a good point there, if it turns out to be the case. And I will drop him and the temple like a hot potato. Perhaps that's what he's angling for. Perhaps he's looking to get a building out of all this preaching and teaching he's doing?
I didn't delete or change or edit anything. Liar much?

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Ezra »

drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.

Zathura
Follow the Prophet
Posts: 8801

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Zathura »

Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)" (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992,)

-Elder Parry

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by drtanner »

Stahura wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:53 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)" (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992,)

-Elder Parry
key words "members of the church"
Last edited by drtanner on September 22nd, 2017, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

underdog
captain of 100
Posts: 495

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by underdog »

Stahura wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:53 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)" (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992,)

-Elder Parry
Exactly. You beat me to it. I wanted to pull those scriptures out. The 'defense' is that the BoM was published in March of 1830 and that the Church was founded in April so the corruption that Nephi/ Moroni are referring to was PRE founding of the Church, thus excluding the Church from the conversation. I don't agree, but that's what they're saying.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by drtanner »

Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually"

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Ezra »

drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:04 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually"
Being well pleased of a baby dosent mean it doesn't have stinky diapers.

The lord can be pleased with us. And yet not be perfect have Curruption need work need repentance. And so on. Keep trying though.

drtanner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1850

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by drtanner »

Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:07 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:04 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm

Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually"
Being well pleased of a baby dosent mean it doesn't have stinky diapers.

The lord can be pleased with us. And yet is not be perfect. Curruption need work need repentance. And so on. Keep trying though.
The Church = Baby (the lord is well pleased)
Diapers = Individuals in the church (we all have need to repent and things to fix)

The Lord still loves his baby.

underdog
captain of 100
Posts: 495

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by underdog »

drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:04 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:24 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:35 pm

Why not include ourself?
Because that is not who he is referring to.
2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually"
Dr. Tanner,

The quote you share was given in what year? Nov 1831.

And what year was this given? Sept 1832.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
If I'm doing the math right, within 10 months the Lord went from being "collectively pleased" to placing a condemnation upon the Church. And we know the 1830's were filled with much scourging and judgment, continuing into the 1840's, when Joseph was murdered (further scourging, wouldn't you say?), and then the saints were persecuted till they left, dying along the way to Utah. More scourging?

If having your leader murdered, along with others, and the raping, pillaging, and plundering of the saints doesn't give evidence of condemnation, then I don't know what would.

It's like a kid who was punished by his parents. Perhaps he got spanked, or grounded to his room, or had privileges removed, or was given lots of work to do, etc., and him all the while saying to others who see the distress of the child and even knew he broke the rules, but who's doing the best he can do under the circumstances, "I'm not being punished. I'm happy. I'm blessed. My parents are happy with me. I didn't do anything wrong."

I've seen kids do this. But why not just say, "Man, I screwed up. I truly deserve the punishment I got. I'm doing my time."?

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Ezra »

drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:16 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:07 pm
drtanner wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 4:04 pm
Ezra wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm

2 nephi 28 11-12.

I can see the pride. Can you?

The belief that the lds church is not who he is talking about is prideful. It's puffed up. It's exactly what nephi is saying about the churches of our day too.

The lds church is included and it's not the only one.
"30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually"
Being well pleased of a baby dosent mean it doesn't have stinky diapers.

The lord can be pleased with us. And yet is not be perfect. Curruption need work need repentance. And so on. Keep trying though.
The Church = Baby (the lord is well pleased)
Diapers = Individuals in the church (we all have need to repent and things to fix)

The Lord still loves his baby
Yep lord loves his baby. And yet the baby is the one that poops into those diapers.

The baby is not perfect. It needs to grow, learn, progress.

Knowing it's a baby means that we stay humble. We know it's not perfect. If it was perfect it would be the millennium.

It's not the millennium. The baby has stinky poop.

Seek the Truth
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Posts: 3511

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Seek the Truth »

underdog wrote: September 21st, 2017, 9:45 pm Major prophesy was uttered, IMHO.

For interested people who missed it, the highlights were as follows:

  • He spent time on discussing what it means to "be sent."
  • He taught the doctrine of Christ.
  • Invited all to be baptized.
  • Said read Matthew 24, which is about the signs immediately preceding the Second Coming.
  • Said the signs have begun.
  • Referred to verse 34 saying ALL the signs will be fulfilled in THIS generation. Big time prophesy.
  • Said to be of good cheer, that prophets will be among you. As in PLURALITY of prophets.
  • Said that if you're going to listen to a preacher who says he has a message from God, you should only listen to one who has been sent.
  • He bore testimony at the end that he knows Christ lives, for he has seen Him, as Paul saw Him.
  • He compared himself to Noah.
  • Said the end times will be like Noah's day. That's the scary part. But said the good news is that there will be prophets sent, just as Noah was sent.
Lol seems like the arm of flesh is making a real comeback in Snufferland.

Seek the Truth
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Seek the Truth »

underdog wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 12:24 pm I have to give you credit for bringing some scriptures to the table, including the AoF one above. The questions relative to organization should be considered.

1) What did God command to be done on April 6, 1830? God commanded something to be organized. What was that something? We know it wasn't a corporation sole that was commanded to be established.
2) Whatever that something was, what was its purpose?
3) How long was that something that was organized to serve its purpose?
4) Could it be that that something served its purpose? Perhaps the organization that Joseph started was utilized for a wise purpose by God?
5) It was the will of Christ that He personally call 12 apostles in His day. What lesson do we learn from Judas' apostasy about God's will and apostles whom He calls?

And it still should be readily apparent and acknowledged by ALL intelligent and honest people that quite obviously any organization or institution (and ESPECIALLY large ones and ones that have members of the holy priesthood) is the target for corruption by the Adversary. In the Temple, what does Satan boldly declare, threaten and promise? That with gold and silver he will buy up such organizations and institutions which would include false priests that oppress, with the ultimate goal to reign with blood and horror upon this earth.

Thank you.
How do you not know the answers to these questions?

Thomas
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4622

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Thomas »

The Lord may have been well pleased with the church in 1831 but by September 1832, the Lord put the church under condemnation. Things went down hill from there. If you want to accept the revelations of God through the prophet Joseph Smith, then accept them all. Don't just accept the ones that flatter the church.

We can see that by 1833, the Lord punished the saints quite severely for their transgressions. He used the Missouri mobs to persecute the saints but they refused to accept it was the hand of the Lord punishing them. The church still refuses to acknowledge it. (see D&C 101).

By 1844, God had given the church enough chances to repent and they would not, so God took Joseph and Hyrum away from them and cursed the church and the saints. ( see D&C 124).

God kept the curse on the saints till 2013. He sent a messenger to the saints to give them an opportunity to repent. Some few did. Some few did acknowledge that we are not in the good graces of our Lord. Most did not and stoned the prophet that God had sent them, just like all those who gone before them.

The pride shown is unreal. The scriptures are so true. They predicted the prideful saints would not repent. They are just like all other previous generations. " We are the children of Abraham" , they say. " So we cannot go astray".

They don't understand that God can make children of Abraham out of the rocks.

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Arenera
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Posts: 2712

Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Arenera »

Thomas wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:13 pm The Lord may have been well pleased with the church in 1831 but by September 1832, the Lord put the church under condemnation. Things went down hill from there. If you want to accept the revelations of God through the prophet Joseph Smith, then accept them all. Don't just accept the ones that flatter the church.

We can see that by 1833, the Lord punished the saints quite severely for their transgressions. He used the Missouri mobs to persecute the saints but they refused to accept it was the hand of the Lord punishing them. The church still refuses to acknowledge it. (see D&C 101).

By 1844, God had given the church enough chances to repent and they would not, so God took Joseph and Hyrum away from them and cursed the church and the saints. ( see D&C 124).

God kept the curse on the saints till 2013. He sent a messenger to the saints to give them an opportunity to repent. Some few did. Some few did acknowledge that we are not in the good graces of our Lord. Most did not and stoned the prophet that God had sent them, just like all those who gone before them.

The pride shown is unreal. The scriptures are so true. They predicted the prideful saints would not repent. They are just like all other previous generations. " We are the children of Abraham" , they say. " So we cannot go astray".

They don't understand that God can make children of Abraham out of the rocks.
Who was sent, I haven't heard of anyone. I haven't heard of anyone stoned. Do you know of anyone that was a rock? What tribe are they from?

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clarkkent14
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by clarkkent14 »

Arenera wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:51 pmWho was sent, I haven't heard of anyone. I haven't heard of anyone stoned. Do you know of anyone that was a rock? What tribe are they from?
PETER: Satan, we command you to depart.

LUCIFER: By what authority?
Matthew 21:23 wrote:And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
John 10:40-43 wrote:Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? So there was a division among the people because of him.
Mark 6:2-3 wrote:And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Joseph Smith, TPJS 205 wrote:“The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves “in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth,” and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.”

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Arenera
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Arenera »

So you can't answer the questions i posed? This is what it means to be a remnant?

e-eye2.0
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by e-eye2.0 »

Thomas wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:13 pm The Lord may have been well pleased with the church in 1831 but by September 1832, the Lord put the church under condemnation. Things went down hill from there. If you want to accept the revelations of God through the prophet Joseph Smith, then accept them all. Don't just accept the ones that flatter the church.

We can see that by 1833, the Lord punished the saints quite severely for their transgressions. He used the Missouri mobs to persecute the saints but they refused to accept it was the hand of the Lord punishing them. The church still refuses to acknowledge it. (see D&C 101).

By 1844, God had given the church enough chances to repent and they would not, so God took Joseph and Hyrum away from them and cursed the church and the saints. ( see D&C 124).

God kept the curse on the saints till 2013. He sent a messenger to the saints to give them an opportunity to repent. Some few did. Some few did acknowledge that we are not in the good graces of our Lord. Most did not and stoned the prophet that God had sent them, just like all those who gone before them.

The pride shown is unreal. The scriptures are so true. They predicted the prideful saints would not repent. They are just like all other previous generations. " We are the children of Abraham" , they say. " So we cannot go astray".

They don't understand that God can make children of Abraham out of the rocks.
Sooo... do the remnant believe Denver Snuffer was sent to call the church to repentance? Also, just curious as to how he did this, was it him asking not to be excommunicated that was the call to repentance or some other occasion or time?

underdog
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by underdog »

e-eye2.0 wrote: September 27th, 2017, 4:26 pm
Thomas wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:13 pm The Lord may have been well pleased with the church in 1831 but by September 1832, the Lord put the church under condemnation. Things went down hill from there. If you want to accept the revelations of God through the prophet Joseph Smith, then accept them all. Don't just accept the ones that flatter the church.

We can see that by 1833, the Lord punished the saints quite severely for their transgressions. He used the Missouri mobs to persecute the saints but they refused to accept it was the hand of the Lord punishing them. The church still refuses to acknowledge it. (see D&C 101).

By 1844, God had given the church enough chances to repent and they would not, so God took Joseph and Hyrum away from them and cursed the church and the saints. ( see D&C 124).

God kept the curse on the saints till 2013. He sent a messenger to the saints to give them an opportunity to repent. Some few did. Some few did acknowledge that we are not in the good graces of our Lord. Most did not and stoned the prophet that God had sent them, just like all those who gone before them.

The pride shown is unreal. The scriptures are so true. They predicted the prideful saints would not repent. They are just like all other previous generations. " We are the children of Abraham" , they say. " So we cannot go astray".

They don't understand that God can make children of Abraham out of the rocks.
Sooo... do the remnant believe Denver Snuffer was sent to call the church to repentance? Also, just curious as to how he did this, was it him asking not to be excommunicated that was the call to repentance or some other occasion or time?
How, you ask?

One way...
The Lord commanded him to read Ezekiel 33-34 without commentary.

I think it was the latter part of chapter 33 and all of 34.

I'll look it up. But go ahead and read Ezekiel's prophecy and of course apply it to the Church.

Here's the quote:

Now I need to read you something. This is Ezekiel 33:25-34:31:

"Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land? Say thou thus unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; As I live, surely they that are in the wastes shall fall by the sword, and him that is in the open field will I give to the beasts to be devoured, and they that be in the forts and in the caves shall die of the pestilence. For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through. Then shall they know that I am the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed. Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD. And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them. AND the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves anymore; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD."

I was required to read that, but I am not required, and will not comment. You wouldn‟t want to hear my comments anyway. But you should apply these verses to us today.
Last edited by underdog on September 27th, 2017, 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Arenera
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Arenera »

clarkkent14 wrote: September 27th, 2017, 3:19 pm
Arenera wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:51 pmWho was sent, I haven't heard of anyone. I haven't heard of anyone stoned. Do you know of anyone that was a rock? What tribe are they from?
PETER: Satan, we command you to depart.

LUCIFER: By what authority?
Matthew 21:23 wrote:And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
John 10:40-43 wrote:Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? So there was a division among the people because of him.
Mark 6:2-3 wrote:And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
Joseph Smith, TPJS 205 wrote:“The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves “in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth,” and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.”
More fruit from the remnants. You guys are losing it, big time. Have you no remnant site to keep your interest?

Seek the Truth
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Seek the Truth »

Thomas wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:13 pm The Lord may have been well pleased with the church in 1831 but by September 1832, the Lord put the church under condemnation. Things went down hill from there. If you want to accept the revelations of God through the prophet Joseph Smith, then accept them all. Don't just accept the ones that flatter the church.

We can see that by 1833, the Lord punished the saints quite severely for their transgressions. He used the Missouri mobs to persecute the saints but they refused to accept it was the hand of the Lord punishing them. The church still refuses to acknowledge it. (see D&C 101).

By 1844, God had given the church enough chances to repent and they would not, so God took Joseph and Hyrum away from them and cursed the church and the saints. ( see D&C 124).

God kept the curse on the saints till 2013. He sent a messenger to the saints to give them an opportunity to repent. Some few did. Some few did acknowledge that we are not in the good graces of our Lord. Most did not and stoned the prophet that God had sent them, just like all those who gone before them.

The pride shown is unreal. The scriptures are so true. They predicted the prideful saints would not repent. They are just like all other previous generations. " We are the children of Abraham" , they say. " So we cannot go astray".

They don't understand that God can make children of Abraham out of the rocks.
What is special about 2013. The scriptures say what you are claiming will never happen. See my sig and similar statements throughout scripture and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. You literally are rejecting scripture and Joseph Smith.
Last edited by Seek the Truth on September 27th, 2017, 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Seek the Truth »

underdog wrote: September 27th, 2017, 4:38 pm
How, you ask?

One way...
The Lord commanded him to read Ezekiel 33-34 without commentary.

I think it was the latter part of chapter 33 and all of 34.

I'll look it up. But go ahead and read Ezekiel's prophecy and of course apply it to the Church.

Here's the quote:
This is easily the most ignorant interpretation of scripture I've ever seen on this forum.

Thomas
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Thomas »

Seek the Truth wrote: September 27th, 2017, 10:32 pm
Thomas wrote: September 27th, 2017, 2:13 pm The Lord may have been well pleased with the church in 1831 but by September 1832, the Lord put the church under condemnation. Things went down hill from there. If you want to accept the revelations of God through the prophet Joseph Smith, then accept them all. Don't just accept the ones that flatter the church.

We can see that by 1833, the Lord punished the saints quite severely for their transgressions. He used the Missouri mobs to persecute the saints but they refused to accept it was the hand of the Lord punishing them. The church still refuses to acknowledge it. (see D&C 101).

By 1844, God had given the church enough chances to repent and they would not, so God took Joseph and Hyrum away from them and cursed the church and the saints. ( see D&C 124).

God kept the curse on the saints till 2013. He sent a messenger to the saints to give them an opportunity to repent. Some few did. Some few did acknowledge that we are not in the good graces of our Lord. Most did not and stoned the prophet that God had sent them, just like all those who gone before them.

The pride shown is unreal. The scriptures are so true. They predicted the prideful saints would not repent. They are just like all other previous generations. " We are the children of Abraham" , they say. " So we cannot go astray".

They don't understand that God can make children of Abraham out of the rocks.
What is special about 2013. The scriptures say what you are claiming will never happen. See my sig and similar statements throughout scripture and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. You literally are rejecting scripture and Joseph Smith.
Yes, you have already told me. You are the children of Abraham and cannot go astray.

Thomas
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by Thomas »

34 Why is it that ye receive not the preaching of him whom God hath sent? If ye receive not this in your hearts, ye receive not me; and if ye receive not me, ye receive not him of whom I am sent to bear record; and for your sins ye have no cloak.

35 Repent, therefore, and bring forth fruits meet for repentance;

36 And think not to say within yourselves, We are the children of Abraham, and we only have power to bring seed unto our father Abraham; for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children into Abraham.
The Jews thought they could not go astray because of the promise God made to Abraham. God would have to uphold them or be a liar. So do the LDS cling to the misinterpreted statements about priesthood and the Kingdom of God ( which is not the church but a government).

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GrandMasterB
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Re: Snuffer LIVE From Los Angeles California

Post by GrandMasterB »

simpleton wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 6:59 am And also don't forget that for every "prophet " that God sends there are plenty of false prophets or fakers that Satan sends to oppose the true ones....
So my stand is this specifically:
Brigham Young was called By Jesus Christ himself to the apostleship and to the presiding high priesthood and to the leadership of the church and Kingdom of God to all the earth.
And Denver Snuffer is opposed to Brigham Young, and yet claims to have seen Jesus Christ. Well I have no doubt in my mind that Denver has seen somebody "miraculously speaking" but as to actually being Jesus Christ, sorry, nothing but an immitation, the devil in disguise, the devil appearing as an angel of light, to deceive the very elect.
It reminds me of Mr. Korihor:

But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

Denver is a " vain aspirant" a cunning lawyer that seemingly portrays himself as not seeking for power, but I notice that he has claimed revelation telling him that his name is " David" setting the stage for another one ( of the many hundreds already) claimants to being " the One Mighty and Strong" or the "Davidical Servant".
The minute you start " aspiring" is the minute Satan gains power over you, that is, if you do not repent.
"He is fallen, he is fallen, even a son of the morning". Do not think for a moment you or any of us are more intelligent then that " son of the morning" . Satan has something for everybody and will "deceive the very elect if it were possible", and I would venture to say that the best success he has to deceive us is when men " aspire" to greatness, to position, to authority, to power etc.

Now back to Brigham Young and Denver. Brigham Young was and still is God's anointed, and for Denver to summarily dismiss Brigham should be a "key whereby you may not be deceived" . And that my friends is good enough for me. Any so-called claimant to light that knocks God's anointed hath not God's spirit. Although may have had it but lost it.
That is my summary
Amen and Amen!!!

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