Wealth Must Be Created Before We Can Give It To the Poor

[buffalo_girl]

You have a good point. God does not want us to have an equal amount of dollars. That's not what's meant by equality, I think we all agree. It's an impossibility.

I'm not sure currency of any sort has one whit to do with The Kingdom of God or with Zion - either on Earth or in the Eternities.

[marc]

What think ye?

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Was the householder just, fair, impartial? Why or why not?

[Finrock]

We need to get to the point in our spiritual maturity where it doesn't upset us when we perceive that others aren't "pulling their weight". Perhaps best is to never assume that others aren't pulling their weight even if it appears to be the case.

I can't even measure how much God has given me through-out my life things both spiritual and material when I wasn't pulling my weight. So often I've been blessed by God having done nothing to deserve it. Constantly in my life I'm getting more from God than I've contributed. I'm eternally indebted to God no matter how hard I work or how hard I try. Who here thinks God has done evil, has been an enabler, or has done wrong because He gave me without deserving it or without my efforts coming even close to equaling what I received from Him in return for my imperfect efforts?

-Finrock

[marc]

Let us keep in mind that the parable I just quoted above was given by Jesus Christ, who represents Himself as the householder who paid all His laborers equally as written in verse 12. Why did they see their reward with an evil eye? Again, was the householder just, fair, impartial? Why or why not?

[gclayjr]

marc,

Let us keep in mind that the parable I just quoted above was given by Jesus Christ, who represents Himself as the householder who paid all His laborers equally as written in verse 12. Why did they see their reward with an evil eye? Again, was the householder just, fair, impartial? Why or why not?

I don't get your point. This is a well known parable that is often quoted in SS and there is an SMA for it. He made a deal with the laborers, and kept his deal. It is not up to the laborers to determine who might have worked harder or who should get more than another. It has nothing to do with some sort of God socialism where everybody gets equal stuff. It really supports free enterprise where a master can make whatever deal he thinks is right with one person or another, and it doesn't have to be equal.

So I met your challenge, now give us your snarky response!

Regards,

George Clay

[Michelle]

You know threads like this always seem to circle back to the idea of;

Finding excuses to not help the poor and point out how they've disqualified themselves.
Failing to point out we received help from the Lord and are supposed to just keep passing blessings down the river while blessings up the river flow to us. Equality is thrown out. We'll offer some poor guy minimum wage, but when we were in need or had our first job we were given the premium wage and benefits. Now nobody gets benefits. Proponents of let the poor help themselves will be living fat and large with six digit figure pay checks, and constantly figuring out excuses to give more to themselves and how they are really poor because they worked themselves to the bone... Do we really want to be like the Zoramites? It starts out something like this...Holy holy God...we know thou art God and art a spirit...that you can't have a body that you only chose us, that are brethren are in the wrong, and only we can be right. We pray for wealth...we know only we should be allowed to prosper while we ignore our brethren falling by the way in need... We equate need and want as being the same when they aren't. We live beyond our means and convince ourselves we just need that one more toy before we can help someone. But later we realize we added more toys we need to get first not long afterwards. We expect the poor to help themselves, not taking into account that some problems can't even be solved in this life, and that the person didn't do anything wrong to be in the pit. We don't see how many people are really in need, and how big some problems are. Problems like cancer, cystic fibrosis, and others they must have sinned to get that problem so why would we care...Why do we think giving someone a job that doesn't pay them enough to support themselves solves all problems? Somehow it always turns into this!

At some point we will be taking so much for ourselves that we will be taking away the future of the humble and meek. At that point the righteous young people growing up will have no options for a future so the judgments of God will HAVE to fall upon us because we're blocking the Plan of Salvation from becoming available to too many people with our small group damming up the river.

Choosing when to provide financial assistance and when to refrain is stewardship. I have times in my life when the Lord has directed me to provide financial assistance and times when I have been directed by the Spirit to refrain. I know no man's heart, so I must defer to the judgment of God in this matter. I have had times when I asked the Lord for a temporal need and he has sometimes provided the financial means and sometimes the material goods.

I'm sure some wealthy are as you describe, but I think it just as likely many fall into this category:

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

If I cannot judge a poor man outside of inspiration from the Spirit, I don't know that I can judge a wealthy man without the same Spirit of truth.

Doctrine and Covenants 104:17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.

Edit: I thought I might as well give a real life examples.

I had a family member who remarked that she didn't have money to buy food. She was a single mom going through a difficult time and had 2 children. The Spirit directed me not to help, but I assumed it was just my selfishness. My children and I packed her cupboard with food we believed she would eat (She didn't like to cook eating mostly instant food and fast food.)

When she moved out a year later my children went down to help her. She had them dump all the food we had given her into the trash. She had neither eaten it, nor returned it to us to use. She told my kids not to tell me, but they did. She did ask for financial assistance sometimes. Lesson learned.

I had a single mother I visit taught that often complained about the limited financial assistance in Utah for her situation.
She received all financial benefits available from the state (rent, heat, food stamps, etc.) and lived in a larger house with her 1 daughter (3 bedroom) than we did with our 5 children (2 bedroom). She would also receive assistance from the bishops storehouse and the bishop paid many of her bills that the state did not, including schooling. She would sometimes bring over the food she received from the bishops storehouse that she just didn't want. I had to ask her not to accept it from the bishop if she didn't want it.

We often had her and her daughter over to dinner and it would drive my husband nuts listening to her complain about her financial situation. It was clear that the two of them were living on about double what we earned. He finally, in a very subtle way, let her know how much he earned and it stopped her complaining instantly (at least to us.)

There is nothing wrong with asking for help in the right order: "self, family, church and the government not at all" as Marion G. Romney put it. But

Doctrine and Covenants 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

[Serragon]

We need to get to the point in our spiritual maturity where it doesn't upset us when we perceive that others aren't "pulling their weight". Perhaps best is to never assume that others aren't pulling their weight even if it appears to be the case.

I can't even measure how much God has given me through-out my life things both spiritual and material when I wasn't pulling my weight. So often I've been blessed by God having done nothing to deserve it. Constantly in my life I'm getting more from God than I've contributed. I'm eternally indebted to God no matter how hard I work or how hard I try. Who here thinks God has done evil, has been an enabler, or has done wrong because He gave me without deserving it or without my efforts coming even close to equaling what I received from Him in return for my imperfect efforts?

-Finrock

It is true that we are unprofitable servants. And God, with his limitless resources, often blesses us when we do not deserve it.

Yet he often does not bless us, or delays a blessing so that we might learn from our situation and change our behavior.

Trying to say that because an omnipotent creator blesses you at times when you are undeserving means that you are spiritually immature if you expect others to take responsibility for their own lives makes no sense.

The Lord commanded Adam and Eve to live by the sweat of their brow. He caused the earth to produce thistles and thorns. They didn't simply sit there and wait for the mana to rain from heaven.

We are required to be charitable. This is one of the highest principles of the Gospel. But part of the law of charity is to be a thankful and righteous recipient.

A Zion community is not just a bunch of rich people handing out stuff to everyone else. It is a community of like minded people ALL working and doing their part. One of the main reasons there are no poor in a Zion community is that attitudes of slothfulness, greed, and envy cannot exist there. The people who have those attitudes are not of God and cannot enter, else it ceases to be Zion. Likewise, those who are rich with attitudes of greed and dominion cannot enter, else it ceased to be Zion.

[marc]

marc,

Let us keep in mind that the parable I just quoted above was given by Jesus Christ, who represents Himself as the householder who paid all His laborers equally as written in verse 12. Why did they see their reward with an evil eye? Again, was the householder just, fair, impartial? Why or why not?

I don't get your point. This is a well known parable that is often quoted in SS and there is an SMA for it. He made a deal with the laborers, and kept his deal. It is not up to the laborers to determine who might have worked harder or who should get more than another. It has nothing to do with some sort of God socialism where everybody gets equal stuff. It really supports free enterprise where a master can make whatever deal he thinks is right with one person or another, and it doesn't have to be equal.

So I met your challenge, now give us your snarky response!

Regards,

George Clay

I think SS means Sunday School, but I don't know what SMA is. I also don't understand why people keep comparing laborers in Zion to beneficiaries of Socialism or "God Socialism" as you put it. I should emphasize that my explanations do not imply that nobody works.

2 Nephi 26:31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

So what is it then that laborers in Zion do? What kind of work did the householder expect His laborers to perform in His vineyard? You said:

It really supports free enterprise where a master can make whatever deal he thinks is right with one person or another, and it doesn't have to be equal.

But in the parable, they were indeed made equal. And that was the point. But what if He took all the gold in the universe and divided it equally among them because He is God and He decides what is good and just and fair? Now each of them were equally wealthy a thousand lifetimes over. Would that make any kind of difference?

Or alternatively, what if instead of one penny each, or a million gold coins each, their wages each was eternal life?

Mosiah 2:23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

And though God pays us for obeying Him, we are still indebted to him.

D&C 31:5 Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire.

Why is the laborer in Zion worthy of His hire? Because he labors with all His might, mind and strength whether he finds himself laboring from the beginning of the day or finds himself beginning his labor at the last hour of the day. This is God's work and God's glory. Not our own. To obtain immortality and eternal life is more payment than a silly penny or all the gold in the universe, which fallen men certainly would exact. God does not exact a "price" from us. He paid the price.

But if you want snarky, here you go: There is no God Socialism or whatever.

[marc]

D&C 4:4 For behold the field is white already to harvest; and lo, he that thrusteth in his sickle with his might, the same layeth up in store that he perisheth not, but bringeth salvation to his soul;

5 And faith, hope, charity and love, with an eye single to the glory of God, qualify him for the work.

But fallen, uncharitable man would say, "But Lord! You forgave more of his sins than mine! That's not fair!"

How's that for more snarky?

[gclayjr]

Marc,

I think SS means Sunday School, but I don't know what SMA is

SMA means Standard Mormon Answer - the answers that are given regularly to common questions in Church.

But in the parable, they were indeed made equal. And that was the point. But what if He took all the gold in the universe and divided it equally among them because He is God and He decides what is good and just and fair? Now each of them were equally wealthy a thousand lifetimes over. Would that make any kind of difference?

I could see this mis interpretation coming a thousand miles away. That was why I found it silly for you to post it as if you were laying a trap. You God Socialists continue to confuse that being made equal with being given equal stuff. Now if you pursue the SMA, further, you will find that the reward being symbolized here is being able to be Saved or get into the Celestial Kingdom. For that particular reward, it doesn't matter if you repent and accept Christ at the beginning of your life, or if you repent and accept him at the end. In fact, just as in the parable, those who do so last receive their reward first and those who do so first are given it last.

This again ties into the thread I started

Choices, Compound interest, and why there is no equal Glory in the Celestial Kingdom

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46589#p809341

There are 2 eternal concepts here. Where you are and which way you are going. The most important choice we make in this 2nd estate is to choose which way were are going. This is what is addressed in your parable. However, in order to understand that equality, means equal treatment, and doesn't mean equal knowledge, glory, possessions or stuff, one has to understand the eternal concept of how one gets to where your are.

The only way to insure that everyone gets an equal result means that all must be unequally treated. This was Satan's plan, not Christ's

Regards,

George Clay

[buffalo_girl]

So I met your challenge, now give us your snarky response!

Regards,

George Clay

Who's snarky?!

I want to continue being a sharecropper for the LORD, hopefully one He decides to keep.

[marc]

Marc,

I think SS means Sunday School, but I don't know what SMA is

SMA means Standard Mormon Answer - the answers that are given regularly to common questions in Church.

But in the parable, they were indeed made equal. And that was the point. But what if He took all the gold in the universe and divided it equally among them because He is God and He decides what is good and just and fair? Now each of them were equally wealthy a thousand lifetimes over. Would that make any kind of difference?

I could see this mis interpretation coming a thousand miles away. That was why I found it silly for you to post it as if you were laying a trap. You God Socialists continue to confuse that being made equal with being given equal stuff. Now if you pursue the SMA, further, you will find that the reward being symbolized here is being able to be Saved or get into the Celestial Kingdom. For that particular reward, it doesn't matter if you repent and accept Christ at the beginning of your life, or if you repent and accept him at the end. In fact, just as in the parable, those who do so last receive their reward first and those who do so first are given it last.

This again ties into the thread I started

Choices, Compound interest, and why there is no equal Glory in the Celestial Kingdom

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46589#p809341

There are 2 eternal concepts here. Where you are and which way you are going. The most important choice we make in this 2nd estate is to choose which way were are going. This is what is addressed in your parable. However, in order to understand that equality, means equal treatment, and doesn't mean equal knowledge, glory, possessions or stuff, one has to understand the eternal concept of how one gets to where your are.

The only way to insure that everyone gets an equal result means that all must be unequally treated. This was Satan's plan, not Christ's

Regards,

George Clay

Laying a trap? Either I am that crooked or you are that cynical.

[buffalo_girl]

Seems like Elder Cook's talk was quite plain on the topic of Equality.

[buffalo_girl]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... y?lang=eng

Elder Quentin L. Cook - "The Eternal Everyday"