Wealth Must Be Created Before We Can Give It To the Poor

[drtanner]

The scriptures are pretty clear about how Heavenly Father feels about wealth and what we should do with it.

Would Jesus have participated in a free market system while on earth or did he and his family consecrate everything before his ministry?

Look at Lehi, Abraham, and one of the best examples of how the Lord feels about wealth and what we are to do with it, that of Job. How does the story of Job end?

Job 42:10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

12 So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

Did the story end with Job being asked to consecrate all of his wealth and live a different system? The Lord knew Job's heart his willingness. Not only did he bless him with an increase in wealth with no mention of the rules or conditions of what to do with that wealth but he also blesses him with the greatest blessing we can receive in mortality: "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

I truly believe the Lord wants our heart period, the test isn't about the money, its about the heart, we focus on the wrong thing. Would the rich young man had to actually give all of his wealth? Maybe, and maybe if he did he would end up like Job did in the end. Did Abraham have to actually give up his son?

What does the Book of Mormon say about accumulating wealth?

Alma 1:
29 And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.

30 And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

31 And thus they did prosper and become far more wealthy than those who did not belong to their church.

32 For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, and in idolatry or idleness

An important principle even for the wealthy. "Work is always a spiritual necessity even if, for some, it is not an economic necessity." Elder Maxwell

[marc]

D&C 78:5-7

[gclayjr]

drtanner,

Yup. It is interesting how many scriptural references that there are that God's way isn't some God socialism with equality of outcome, rather than actually being an eternity, where all are encouraged to maximize their opportunity to become more like him. whether your example of Job, or Christ himself, or the reference in John 14:2 to the fact that in heaven there are many mansions, or the parable of the talents, or the fact that in the parable of the prodigal son, the father celebrates the return of the prodigal son, but all that he has (except the cost of the party) still goes to the faithful son, etc, etc, etc.

I guess many think that in 4rth Nephi when it says that they had all things in common and that there were no poor among them somehow means that all had equal stuff. I don't see anything here that says that all have equal stuff. All are equal, yes, but equal in their opportunity to advance. In fact, giving people stuff, often actually denies them the opportunity to progress, rather than promoting it.

Regards,

George Clay

[David13]

Yes, there are people who think it's all one great giant pie, to be divided equally, each and every gets an "equal piece" and that's the end of it. It really isn't that simple, but of course, the distortion of alcohol may lead people to believe it is.
It's a lot more complicated than that.
dc

[ajax]

Even the Lord recognized inherent inequality:
"To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability."

In Joseph Smith's time, after initial consecrations, "there was to be freedom of enterprise in production and in the management of properties held as stewardships. There was no provision for the minute and intimate regulation of economic activity which prevailed in some contemporary communitarian societies." (Arrington, Great Basin Kingdom).

Free enterprise is nothing more than freedom to socially cooperate. Prices naturally stem from this social cooperation and are indicators of resource scarcity/abundance. Prices in and of themselves are not extortion or excess, but signals. Even the Lord exacts a price from us in order to be saved. I have the feeling however that there are some which will readily give me the evil eye if they witness me, heaven forbid, exchanging bread for eggs with a neighbor.

Here's what the BoM says about equality:

And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men;

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Therefore they relinquished their desires for a king, and became exceedingly anxious that every man should have an equal chance throughout all the land; yea, and every man expressed a willingness to answer for his own sins.

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For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

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And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

[drtanner]

D&C 78:5-7

Is the only way to be equal in all things to sell everything we have and give to the poor? Or would the Lord desire to bless us all equally as our hearts are one? IMHO it is all about our heart, our willingness, and teaching others the principles of self reliance while showing mercy in the interim. Many in the Book of Mormon, Church History, and even in our day who recieve the greatest blessings our Father can give in mortality do not qualify for those blessings because they actually sell everything and stop working for money, but all of them would if they were asked.

[ajax]

Selfishness, greed, covetousness is a two way street.

In Great Basin Kingdom, Leonard Arrington relates the following:

...one early Mormon recalled:

"In those days there was a tendency of feeling that each should share alike in everything, so much so that it was impossible for any man to do business in the mercantile line. A good brother who was needy would think it was selfish if he could not go to a store and get what he wanted without paying the money for it....Let a brother commence the mercantile business, and the first thing he knew his whole capital stock was credited out to the brethren. He could not refuse to credit a brother. O, no! If he did it was said at once that he was selfish and was no friend to the poor."

The person who expects free goods from a person is much more greedy than a person who sells his goods voluntarily to individuals who aren't coerced to buy.

[gclayjr]

drtanner,

Yes, there are people who think it's all one great giant pie, to be divided equally, each and every gets an "equal piece" and that's the end of it. It really isn't that simple, but of course, the distortion of alcohol may lead people to believe it is.
It's a lot more complicated than that.

)

He's B-A-A-A-C-K.

I don't know if he has dried out, but it doesn't look like he has gotten any more insight. He still mindlessly repeats the same stuff over, and over, and over. One of his threads, has nearly a dozen responses... all of him responding to himself.

Regards,

George Clay

[drtanner]

drtanner,

Yes, there are people who think it's all one great giant pie, to be divided equally, each and every gets an "equal piece" and that's the end of it. It really isn't that simple, but of course, the distortion of alcohol may lead people to believe it is.
It's a lot more complicated than that.

)

He's B-A-A-A-C-K.

I don't know if he has dried out, but it doesn't look like he has gotten any more insight. He still mindlessly repeats the same stuff over, and over, and over. One of his threads, has nearly a dozen responses... all of him responding to himself.

Regards,

George Clay

My heart goest out to him, it really does, never met the guy but have felt to pray for him a few times.

[marc]

D&C 78:5-7

Is the only way to be equal in all things to sell everything we have and give to the poor? Or would the Lord desire to bless us all equally as our hearts are one? IMHO it is all about our heart, our willingness, and teaching others the principles of self reliance while showing mercy in the interim. Many in the Book of Mormon, Church History, and even in our day who recieve the greatest blessings our Father can give in mortality do not qualify for those blessings because they actually sell everything and stop working for money, dbut all of them would if they were asked.

Good question. Consider the condition of the saints and the case of Ananias and Sapphira in chapters 4 & 5 of the book of Acts.

[drtanner]

D&C 78:5-7

Is the only way to be equal in all things to sell everything we have and give to the poor? Or would the Lord desire to bless us all equally as our hearts are one? IMHO it is all about our heart, our willingness, and teaching others the principles of self reliance while showing mercy in the interim. Many in the Book of Mormon, Church History, and even in our day who recieve the greatest blessings our Father can give in mortality do not qualify for those blessings because they actually sell everything and stop working for money, dbut all of them would if they were asked.

Good question. Consider the condition of the saints and the case of Ananias and Sapphira in chapters 4 & 5 of the book of Acts.

"why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?" Once again a condition of the heart. Some may be tested and asked to give and they should give or suffer the consequences of a hypocrite. Some like Job or those in the book of mormon inherit more as a blessing for a pure heart and obedience who would surely give all if asked. Who are we to judge what the Lord will do with his portion to give? As I compare spiritual blessings to temporal blessings I see a pattern of self reliance. No?

[Michelle]

God had already created "wealth" in the earth when he gave it to man.

Yes, and then he required all men to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow.

[marc]

God had already created "wealth" in the earth when he gave it to man.

Yes, and then he required all men to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow.

Indeed, and not by extortion or excess.

[marc]

"why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?" Once again a condition of the heart. Some may be tested and asked to give and they should give or suffer the consequences of a hypocrite. Some like Job or those in the book of mormon inherit more as a blessing for a pure heart and obedience who would surely give all if asked. Who are we to judge what the Lord will do with his portion to give? As I compare spiritual blessings to temporal blessings I see a pattern of self reliance. No?

Good point! Each of us has weaknesses in our "hearts/intents." The rich young man needed do only one more thing to be "perfect" or translated from Greek, "complete." Our weaknesses and intents of our hearts are as varied as each individual. I believe, however, that if we are one heart and one mind, and baptized with fire as the saints were in Acts 4 and 3 Nephi 26, we would not suffer that any beggar would put up his petition in vain. I've been called upstairs and completely lost my train of thought. I'll give this some more thought. But Ananias and Sapphira were not one with the rest who had been baptized with fire and experienced that mighty change of heart that makes us, or at least, teaches us to become one with God who gives freely. Thus they gave up the ghost, unable, or rather, unwilling to participate in a community that had all things common, living a higher law.

[marc]

(note: my replies refer to the saints having all things common, not all things in common. There is a difference. The scriptures always indicate the people having all things common among them and not in common. Two different things.)

[drtanner]

(note: my replies refer to the saints having all things common, not all things in common. There is a difference. The scriptures always indicate the people having all things common among them and not in common. Two different things.)

Really good distinction. Seems that those in the Book of Mormon who break the pride cycle and experience “all things common” don’t necessarily sell everything that they have and give to the poor, but there is no poor among them. I picture them living abundantly all while following the 2 great commandments.

[Michelle]

Yes, I guess the reason I still believe there will be "private property" and "stewardship" even when there are "no poor among them" is because there would be confusion otherwise.

A real life example, we have the property of the church in common, to some extent. But have you ever shown up to the gym, after reserving it with the building coordinator, to find another group is already using the space without having coordinated?(An example would be a scheduled primary activity and a family that decided to use the gym for a family birthday party.) I can't be the only one whose seen this multiple times. Then there is the discussion about who should be there, sometimes it goes better than others. But either way, someone ends up disappointed in there plans.

Sure, the ward building is for all of us to use, but we coordinate both to avoid confusion and it is just more efficient. Just because the bishop is the bishop, even he would check with the building coordinator before scheduling to make sure that everybody's needs are met. Granted, he may decide a funeral takes precedence over a wedding, but likely, he would just find another building in the stake the is available, again, going through the proper channels.

So too in a Zion community. If the bishop in such a society decided your family needed 800 lbs of wheat, you would hardly expect your neighbor to come over to through your unlocked door and help themselves to your provisions without asking. Or to come and take the field you have planted, dig it up, and put in their own seeds. It would be wasteful and almost ensure that resources would run short from misuse.

Doctrine 132:8
Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

[gardener4life]

You know threads like this always seem to circle back to the idea of;

Finding excuses to not help the poor and point out how they've disqualified themselves. Failing to point out we received help from the Lord and are supposed to just keep passing blessings down the river while blessings up the river flow to us. Equality is thrown out. We'll offer some poor guy minimum wage, but when we were in need or had our first job we were given the premium wage and benefits. Now nobody gets benefits. Proponents of let the poor help themselves will be living fat and large with six digit figure pay checks, and constantly figuring out excuses to give more to themselves and how they are really poor because they worked themselves to the bone... Do we really want to be like the Zoramites? It starts out something like this...Holy holy God...we know thou art God and art a spirit...that you can't have a body that you only chose us, that are brethren are in the wrong, and only we can be right. We pray for wealth...we know only we should be allowed to prosper while we ignore our brethren falling by the way in need... We equate need and want as being the same when they aren't. We live beyond our means and convince ourselves we just need that one more toy before we can help someone. But later we realize we added more toys we need to get first not long afterwards. We expect the poor to help themselves, not taking into account that some problems can't even be solved in this life, and that the person didn't do anything wrong to be in the pit. We don't see how many people are really in need, and how big some problems are. Problems like cancer, cystic fibrosis, and others they must have sinned to get that problem so why would we care...Why do we think giving someone a job that doesn't pay them enough to support themselves solves all problems? Somehow it always turns into this!

At some point we will be taking so much for ourselves that we will be taking away the future of the humble and meek. At that point the righteous young people growing up will have no options for a future so the judgments of God will HAVE to fall upon us because we're blocking the Plan of Salvation from becoming available to too many people with our small group damming up the river.

[gclayjr]

gardenerforLife,

You know threads like this always seem to circle back to the idea of;

Finding excuses to not help the poor and point out how they've disqualified themselves. Failing to point out we received help from the Lord and are supposed to just keep passing blessings down the river while blessings up the river flow to us. Equality is thrown out. We'll offer some poor guy minimum wage, but when we were in need or had our first job we were given the premium wage and benefits. Now nobody gets benefits. Proponents of let the poor help themselves will be living fat and large with six digit figure pay checks, and constantly figuring out excuses to give more to themselves and how they are really poor because they worked themselves to the bone... Do we really want to be like the Zoramites? It starts out something like this...Holy holy God...we know thou art God and art a spirit...that you can't have a body that you only chose us, that are brethren are in the wrong, and only we can be right. We pray for wealth...we know only we should be allowed to prosper while we ignore our brethren falling by the way in need... We equate need and want as being the same when they aren't. We live beyond our means and convince ourselves we just need that one more toy before we can help someone. But later we realize we added more toys we need to get first not long afterwards. We expect the poor to help themselves, not taking into account that some problems can't even be solved in this life, and that the person didn't do anything wrong to be in the pit. We don't see how many people are really in need, and how big some problems are. Problems like cancer, cystic fibrosis, and others they must have sinned to get that problem so why would we care...Why do we think giving someone a job that doesn't pay them enough to support themselves solves all problems? Somehow it always turns into this!

At some point we will be taking so much for ourselves that we will be taking away the future of the humble and meek. At that point the righteous young people growing up will have no options for a future so the judgments of God will HAVE to fall upon us because we're blocking the Plan of Salvation from becoming available to too many people with our small group damming up the river.

Isn't it interesting how God Socialists like you make assertions that are not true to slime and slander the rest of us, and make non-sequitur comments to infer A -> B where it absolutely is not true.

Show me where anybody is making any excuses to not help the poor here!!!!

"Equality is thrown out" .... so how does not being poor imply that all must have equal stuff? I guess since you really do not have a cogent arguement against helping people to help themselves, which may mean helping them with needs they cannot provide for themselves, but not hurting them by denying them the growth and opportunity to "plow their own field", you make the above slanderous assertions.

Its like the socialist argument for socialized 1 payer health care. Somehow, you guys never seem to think of anything targeted at helping those who are unable to pay for their own health care, it must be always be some government controlled program to do every thing equally (badly) for all.. because in your eyes it isn't fair unless everybody is equally miserable.

Regards,

George Clay

[gardener4life]

Why are you so offended unless I spoke the truth? And I'm no Socialist. Socialism does not work.

By the way the Healthcare system will never be fixed. Why? Because everyone who gets into healthcare, wants a six digit figure salary. It doesn't mean that they all end up with one but even the nurses are getting closer to that now. You can't have a system made to help people that is at the same time trying to get rich. Whenever you have one person getting rich, that person can only do so by making others poor unless everyone is equal. You argued inequality against me but your very example proves inequality.

[buffalo_girl]

Perhaps our concept of 'economics' is too much based on the worldly mind.

I don't know one way or the other, although, I do sense that the 'way things are' is NOT the LORD's way or will.

Based on most peoples' interpretation of the Parable of the Talents - Goldman Sachs rules the World precisely because of its advanced state of righteousness.

Here's an insight into the 'teach a man to ______' concept that allegedly encourages him to become 'financially' independent. (Is financial independence really 'being equal in all things'?)

Give a man corn and he eats for a day. Teach a man to grow corn and he'll kill you and steal your land.

NEVER confuse money with wealth.

[David13]

Why are you so offended unless I spoke the truth? And I'm no Socialist. Socialism does not work.

By the way the Healthcare system will never be fixed. Why? Because everyone who gets into healthcare, wants a six digit figure salary. It doesn't mean that they all end up with one but even the nurses are getting closer to that now. You can't have a system made to help people that is at the same time trying to get rich. Whenever you have one person getting rich, that person can only do so by making others poor unless everyone is equal. You argued inequality against me but your very example proves inequality.

No it doesn't.
You do seem to be convinced of the socialist argument that one person getting rich or well paid means they have taken some from someone else. That isn't true. There is not a finite amount of wealth, and what one has lessens what someone else has. Free enterprise creates wealth. If you offer a valuable service you create a wealth that didn't prior thereto exist. Not diminished what someone else had.

The old inequality argument is also a socialist whining point. So if the shoe fits ...

There is no such thing as equality of outcome. There is some equality of opportunity. And that's the idea. In a healthy free enterprise system there is opportunity to create wealth. When there is too much governmental restriction the opportunity is lessened.

You may be right. The health care system may never be fixed. That's because the best system would be everyone pays for their own. Isn't that a novel concept.

When some people can't or won't pay for their own, then they become a burden on others. When the people that can't or won't pay become the majority of the population, then who is going to pay? You may well get to a point that there is no one left to pay. All in the interest of "equality"? You arrive at your socialist utopia point, equal misery.
dc


Things preposterously untrue are as offensive as the truth. So don't jump to conclusions.

[David13]

Perhaps our concept of 'economics' is too much based on the worldly mind.

I don't know one way or the other, although, I do sense that the 'way things are' is NOT the LORD's way or will.

Based on most peoples' interpretation of the Parable of the Talents - Goldman Sachs rules the World precisely because of its advanced state of righteousness.

Here's an insight into the 'teach a man to ______' concept that allegedly encourages him to become 'financially' independent. (Is financial independence really 'being equal in all things'?)

Give a man corn and he eats for a day. Teach a man to grow corn and he'll kill you and steal your land.

NEVER confuse money with wealth.

You have a good point. God does not want us to have an equal amount of dollars. That's not what's meant by equality, I think we all agree. It's an impossibility.
dc

[drtanner]

Mosiah 4: 26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you--that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God--I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

Alma 1:26 ​And when the priests left their ​​​labor​ to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man ​​​according​ to his strength

[gclayjr]

gardener4life,

Why are you so offended unless I spoke the truth? And I'm no Socialist. Socialism does not work.

By the way the Healthcare system will never be fixed. Why? Because everyone who gets into healthcare, wants a six digit figure salary. It doesn't mean that they all end up with one but even the nurses are getting closer to that now. You can't have a system made to help people that is at the same time trying to get rich. Whenever you have one person getting rich, that person can only do so by making others poor unless everyone is equal. You argued inequality against me but your very example proves inequality.

I'm not offended at your insult, I am distressed that you are so clueless. You are probably right in that the health care system will never work, but you clearly don't understand why.

Whenever you have one person getting rich, that person can only do so by making others poor unless everyone is equal

This is patently false. I would explain, but it has already been explained so many times, that I doubt another explanation would teach you anything.

It would be wonderful for someone to make a 6 figure income or even a 7 figure income ... If they provided something that was determined by a free market to be WORTH that amount of money. You would then be better off, because you were able to obtain something that was that much better for that much money , as determined by yourself... and you shouldn't covet the money someone earned if they were able to really provide that much benefit to you!

Wouldn't it be wonderful, if I could invent a pill that I could produce 1 million per day of at $5 per pill cost to me, that would insure that you never got sick again? Would you be willing to pay $10 for a pill that would insure that you never got sick again? Wouldn't the world be better off, even if I made millions of dollars?

Regards,

George Clay