Would you join a community attempt at Zion

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Is there any unoffical community attempt at Zion you would join, given (see full description)?

Yes, it is possible I would jump into it fully
8
18%
Yes, it is possible I would jump into one, but only in a non-committal way at first
3
7%
Yes, definitely not at first but later
0
No votes
Yes or probably
3
7%
Basically No, it's possible but I can't even imagine such a group
6
14%
No, but I would watch it with interest
12
27%
No
12
27%
 
Total votes: 44
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harakim
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Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by harakim »

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time. I'm not exactly sure what the poll should look like but I've been so curious about this topic.

I'm asking if there is *any* unofficial zion-minded community you would join

Here are some of the things I would say are considerations:
The church comes out in a statement and says it won't take a position on the community and you should make the decision for yourself
You don't necessarily have to be committed at first, as reflected in the poll
These people would be people and not infallible, though the membership could all be Indpendents, Republics, LDS, Christians, whatever ie selective membership
These people would have no super-human power to convince you they would succeed like showing you a vision
By joining, it doesn't mean you have to believe it would succeed, just that you would be willing to make reasonable contributions asked of you to ensure its success

The poll questions are referring to the group you are most likely to join, not all such groups. Feel free to comment on how to improve the description or poll.

Clarification: Zion is a community of people who have one heart and one mind whose driving purpose is to know God and do his will. There would be striving for no poor among them and no one getting offended or purposefully being malicious. They are actively trying to improve every member of their group and become unified in purpose. Eventually there would be no vestige of a ruling class and everything would be held in common. (These are the goals of the community and not the starting place.)
Last edited by harakim on August 31st, 2017, 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Silver
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Silver »

harakim, just a suggestion...would you please define what you mean by Zion or by a Zion-minded community? Those terms probably cause unique associations and emotions in each of us.

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Alaris
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Alaris »

Way ahead of your brother ;)

If we take our temple covenants seriously we should be working in that direction anyway!

Seek the Truth
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Seek the Truth »

My answer is completely no. Communes fail at a rate of near 100%.

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friendsofthe
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by friendsofthe »

I said no because I’m thinking that the real deal is so very close, just be patient and keep your eyes open. The real Zion will be established before you know it!

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harakim
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by harakim »

Silver wrote: August 31st, 2017, 9:58 pm harakim, just a suggestion...would you please define what you mean by Zion or by a Zion-minded community? Those terms probably cause unique associations and emotions in each of us.
Thanks. I added a clarification

eddie
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by eddie »

:-ss No, I'm afraid it would be like this forum.

Silver
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Silver »

harakim wrote: August 31st, 2017, 10:39 pm
Silver wrote: August 31st, 2017, 9:58 pm harakim, just a suggestion...would you please define what you mean by Zion or by a Zion-minded community? Those terms probably cause unique associations and emotions in each of us.
Thanks. I added a clarification
I look forward to such a community whether created by men and women anxiously engaged in a good cause or by direct commandment from God.

Ezra
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Ezra »

I would love to start one on my place. I think it's possible with people with the right education and Desire.

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skmo
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by skmo »

Very much NO with a flaming, radioactive exclamation point.

Having been around so many places and seeing how people's nature changes, has helped me become a cynic. However, having people I've known for DECADES change because of whatever reason, I've come to really understand why we're told to depend only on God. I used to believe there were friends and family members I could believe in, and especially my own spouse, then having a number of them betray and/or abandon me, I am left with one inescapable, yet tragically debilitating belief about myself:

I will never, ever fully trust another person for as long as I live. This belief is absolute and adamant.

For one who believed so strongly in a small group of family and friends, fairly consistently in an enormous group of friends, and generally overall in the goodness of most people, I despise who I've become with a perverse and profane amount. My whole life I've been a gregarious, demonstrative and happy person. The fact that I despise much of the world almost as much as I despise myself leaves me to avoid becoming part of almost anything ever again. Certainly I would not remove myself from where I am, isolated in the high mountains in a place where there are very few people, to anywhere I could think of.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Rose Garden »

Skmo, you may not be able to trust other people but you can trust God. If you trust God, really trust him, you can trust other people to a greater extent because you will know that the Lord can heal you from the wounds they cause you.

Zion begins in your own (my own) heart and mind. If you have achieved Zion individually then you can work toward a Zion relationship with your spouse. When you've accomplished a Zion relationship with your spouse then you can work toward a Zion community. That is my understanding. At present, I am working on myself.

I've felt longing to join groups building Zion but have been restrained by the Spirit telling me I need to wait until I have gained that sort of relationship with a husband first. Since I have no husband at the moment, I'm working on qualifying to become the sort of woman who can marry a man who is working toward Zion. I won't even start looking for a community until I've accomplished that at least. In the meantime, however, I am watching and learning from groups who are trying it. It's true, they virtually all fail. But out of the ashes grow a few people who are wiser because of the experience. They can share valuable lessons for those willing to listen.

Teancum
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Teancum »

Meili wrote: I've felt longing to join groups building Zion but have been restrained by the Spirit telling me I need to wait until I have gained that sort of relationship with a husband first. Since I have no husband at the moment, I'm working on qualifying to become the sort of woman who can marry a man who is working toward Zion. I won't even start looking for a community until I've accomplished that at least. In the meantime, however, I am watching and learning from groups who are trying it. It's true, they virtually all fail. But out of the ashes grow a few people who are wiser because of the experience. They can share valuable lessons for those willing to listen.
Meili, I have felt the same. I have also witnessed the ashes of the complete inferno these people that try to build a Zion group seem to have.
The question is really, if one joins a Zion group to "get the feel of it", and ends up being burned, is there anything left in the ashes to build the real deal when it comes time that the Lord does His work of building Zion? Are ashes good building material? Do people have anything left to offer after they have jumped out of the ship into the lake of fire and brimstone?

I don't have the answers, but feel restrained by the spirit to not try my hand at it until the Lord shall direct otherwise.

Skmo, your sentiments about removing yourself from the trust and confidence of others, finds an echo in my own hermit soul. Yet there is some spark of hope that turns me to my God. I trust Him completely even if I lose all my friends and family, should be killed in the most inhumane manner, and even if the very jaws of hell are snapping right at my behind, He's got my back. With this spark of hope, I can then turn my selfish fears and wants aside and look at someone else to see how they could be helped. Once that love for others grows enough in me, it should make me a Zion ready person.

Spaced_Out
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Spaced_Out »

The thought has crossed my mind a few times to buy out an abandons remote mining village - there are many in Australia going for dirt cheap.
Fully functional villages, and getting like minded people together to escape the rat race and have a safe place for families to grow up.

But these types of communities tend to attract all the drifters and lazy buggers looking for a free ride. Some of the kibbutz in Israel tend to work. There are working examples of these types of communities or Amish in the US. In these situations one keeps your property right and right to leave.
Our understanding of having all things in common is not quiet what the scriptures refer to - it is nothing like what many are now proposing a universal basic income.

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Durzan
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Durzan »

I have thought about how to do this a number of times. I have a strong desire to establish Zion. Part of me suspects that I would prove instrumental in the establishment of Zion in Independence Missouri in the near future... given that certain conditions in my life are met.

So yes, I would join a Zion community. Heck, I might even one of the leaders of said community. But I would only do so upon the Lord's command, as otherwise I fear the potential of power going to my head.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by iWriteStuff »

I suppose the real question is what kind of Zion community would accept riff raff like me? :-s

That objection being overcome, I'd be glad to join one.

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Alaris
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Alaris »

I am struggling with the word ZION today as I keep hearing the way Agent Anderson pronounces the word as he tries to extract the code from Morpheus.

Image

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SmallFarm
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by SmallFarm »

The Kingdom of God lies within YOU! The change must come from within, or no community will ever work.

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creator
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by creator »

eddie wrote: August 31st, 2017, 10:43 pm:-ss No, I'm afraid it would be like this forum.
So what you mean is "yes" because you are here.

Michelle
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Michelle »

I look forward to the day. I believe it will come. I believe we are to be preparing now for that day by study and practice of skill.

I will go when I know that the Spirit approves.

I would want to know those joining were prepared. A study of other communities: scriptural, early saints, and of the Pilgrims would be a must.
It would be helpful to also study modern successful communities like the Amish, and the Homestead Heritage group.

A group discussion of the successes and failures of the various groups to reveal weaknesses would be helpful to pre-plan, but a counsel to deal with issues as they arose would also be needed.

I would want to see what people had done, while living in Babylon, to prepare for Zion. Spiritually, temple recommend holders, Sabbath Day observers, consistent in prayer and study of gospel, sustaining prophets.

Temporally, while recognizing the constraints of modern laws, what have you done and learned within your own power. You don't have to have done everything, but you would need to demonstrate that you had started and share what you had learned as well as be willing to learn from others experience. Some things might be: gardening without chemicals and natural soil repair. Animals husbandry: chickens, bees, goats, cows, etc. Any sort of building or farming skills. Any skills to do with health: herbs, basic medical care for trauma, midwifery. Preparing food simply and thankfully without a grocery store and eating seasonally.

I believe that holding ALL property in common won't work. I don't believe that is what God asks. Again, a reading of the history of the early saints as well as The History of Plimoth Plantation by William Bradford reveals that such an ideal fails and is not ordained of God. Bradford shares how hungry they were as a community under such constraints and how they never hungered again after private property was established. This did not mean no communal property or work, but it was a balance that allowed them to never be hungry again. Some communal, some private.

And then, of course, private property allowed enough excess to facilitate temporal charity that there were no poor among them (everyone had basic needs met voluntarily.)

It also demonstrates that, at least up until now, and probably for a time. There was no way to get rid of all the rogues. They have a tendency to infest, but can be properly and charitably dealt with while leaving final judgement to God.

I think this was seen in the early days of the Saints as well as shared by Joseph Smith. Adversity binds, so I don't expect we would be free of that at the start.

Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith
Chapter 23: How Good and Pleasant it is . . . to Dwell Together in Unity
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 3?lang=eng

"“We would wish the Saints to understand that, when they come here, they must not expect perfection, or that all will be harmony, peace, and love; if they indulge these ideas, they will undoubtedly be deceived, for here there are persons, not only from different states, but from different nations, who, although they feel a great attachment to the cause of truth, have their prejudices of education, and, consequently, it requires some time before these things can be overcome. Again, there are many that creep in unawares, and endeavor to sow discord, strife, and animosity in our midst, and by so doing, bring evil upon the Saints. … Therefore, let those who come up to this place be determined to keep the commandments of God, and not be discouraged by those things we have enumerated, and then they will be prospered—the intelligence of heaven will be communicated to them, and they will, eventually, see eye to eye, and rejoice in the full fruition of that glory which is reserved for the righteous."

I have a lot more to say on this. If anyone is interested in personal study and reading suggestions I would start with Doctrine and Covenants 104, the Joseph Smith Manual, the History of Plimoth Plantation by William Bradford and a reading of Socialism and the United Order Compared given by Marion G. Romney in General Conference at the request of the First Presidency.
http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1476

Above all, I think the communities fail when the expectations are unrealistic. The Lord has taught all we need to know on this subject. I think so many people are comfortable, they are not bothering to study it yet, but they will. And those who are prepared will teach those who are not.

Doctrine and Covenants 104:15-16

"15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.

16 But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low."

Teancum
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Teancum »

alaris wrote: September 1st, 2017, 9:18 am I am struggling with the word ZION today as I keep hearing the way Agent Anderson pronounces the word as he tries to extract the code from Morpheus.

Image
Do you mean agent Smith?
http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Agent_Smith
However it is pronounced, Zion will cause fear and terror in the hearts of the wicked. The inhabitants will be called terrible. I wonder what specifically would cause that?

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Alaris
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Alaris »

kenssurplus wrote: September 1st, 2017, 10:10 am
alaris wrote: September 1st, 2017, 9:18 am I am struggling with the word ZION today as I keep hearing the way Agent Anderson pronounces the word as he tries to extract the code from Morpheus.

Image
Do you mean agent Smith?
http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Agent_Smith
However it is pronounced, Zion will cause fear and terror in the hearts of the wicked. The inhabitants will be called terrible. I wonder what specifically would cause that?
Yes, thank you. Chalk it up to newborn baby brain :)

To answer your questions, I have some thoughts. Here's from our "Teachings of Joseph Smith" manual:
“Now I understand by this quotation, that … righteousness and truth are to sweep the earth as with a flood. And now, I ask, how righteousness and truth are going to sweep the earth as with a flood? I will answer. Men and angels are to be co-workers in bringing to pass this great work, and Zion is to be prepared, even a new Jerusalem, for the elect that are to be gathered from the four quarters of the earth, and to be established an holy city, for the tabernacle of the Lord shall be with them. …

“… ‘Behold this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob, and it shall be a New Jerusalem.’ [3 Nephi 20:22.] Now we learn from the Book of Mormon the very identical continent and spot of land upon which the New Jerusalem is to stand, and it must be caught up according to the vision of John upon the isle of Patmos.

“Now many will feel disposed to say, that this New Jerusalem spoken of, is the Jerusalem that was built by the Jews on the eastern continent. But you will see, from Revelation 21:2, there was a New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her husband; that after this, the Revelator was caught away in the Spirit, to a great and high mountain, and saw the great and holy city descending out of heaven from God. Now there are two cities spoken of here. As everything cannot be had in so narrow a compass as a letter, I shall say with brevity, that there is a New Jerusalem to be established on this continent, and also Jerusalem shall be rebuilt on the eastern continent [see Ether 13:1–12]. ‘Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come; after it should be destroyed, it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it could not be a New Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old.’ [Ether 13:4–5.]”15

“The Prophets have said concerning Zion in the last days: how the glory of Lebanon is to come upon her; the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box tree together, to beautify the place of His sanctuary, that He may make the place of His feet glorious [see Isaiah 60:13]. Where for brass, He will bring gold; and for iron, He will bring silver; and for wood, brass; and for stones, iron [see Isaiah 60:17]; and where the feast of fat things will be given to the just [see Isaiah 25:6]; yea, when the splendor of the Lord is brought to our consideration for the good of His people, the calculations of men and the vain glory of the world vanish, and we exclaim, ‘Out of Zion the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.’ [Psalm 50:2.]”16
from https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 5?lang=eng

Depending on the timing of the return of the City of Enoch, a city coming down out of heaven would certainly give them pause. Angels working together with men ... that could mean many things, but could indicate that as New Jerusalem is built, the work will be unearthly.
Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
144 cubits (interesting number) is 216 feet high. If Trump is around when this wall is built, he may die of jealousy. Especially given the fact that this wall will actually be longer than a Mexican border wall would be along just one side.

Image

Image is from my blog: http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... mbols.html O:-)

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harakim
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by harakim »

Thanks for all of the responses. It's going to take me a while to integrate everything I have learned.

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Alaris
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Alaris »

I figure just about everything the left fights for is actually fighting against something that is good and virtuous and true. I just realized that their fight against a border wall may also be an extension of Luciferianism - especially given the proximity to the Mexican border wall. There is symbolism as to who is allowed to enter, and how they are allowed to enter.

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h_p
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by h_p »

iWriteStuff wrote: September 1st, 2017, 9:08 am I suppose the real question is what kind of Zion community would accept riff raff like me? :-s

That objection being overcome, I'd be glad to join one.
I was just going to say, if they let ME in, it would remain only an attempt.

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Thinker
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Re: Would you join a community attempt at Zion

Post by Thinker »

SmallFarm wrote: September 1st, 2017, 9:19 amThe Kingdom of God lies within YOU! The change must come from within, or no community will ever work.
Exactly! Jesus tried to explain this - when asked when the kingdom of God would come, he responded, "The kingdom of God cometh NOT with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. For behold, the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." Where else would it be really? Yes, God is within you, me, all of us and all - but how I experience God is always within me.

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