Creation/Evolution

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

[Red]

I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

Ad hominem.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

Ad hominem.

No, observation.

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.
When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.”
(Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

In General Conference

[Red]

I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

Ad hominem.

No, observation.

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.
When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.”
(Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

In General Conference

You're attacking me, not my argument = ad hominem.

The above quote does not say HOW God created the world. In your own words, how did God create the world? The scientists who cloned Dolly the sheep could tell you every step of how they did it. Does what you posted above tell how God did it? No, it doesn't. You cannot assume how God created anything. The scriptures are not explicit enough. We aren't meant to know because we aren't meant to become gods in this life.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Since you believe that I was attacking you personally,

I apologize.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

ad ho·mi·nem
ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adverb & adjective
adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem

1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

My comments were completely directed towards the position you stated.

[skmo]

Joseph said God has been a God for only 250 Million Years!?!?

What? Who, um, when, uh,

What?

I'll believe Brigham over any College Professor on anything.

I'll believe anything Brigham Young said came to him as revelation from God for us. The rest of the things he said I'll listen to and weigh their validity, correctness, and value the same as anyone else. Brother Brigham had several opportunities in his life to be a great man, and he had several to be a real jerk, just as everyone on earth does.

As a prophet I'll accept revelation from him and pray for confirmation of it just I do from all the others. As a church leader I'd have sustained him and given him all the support I could. As a man he's just like the rest of us: good and bad.

[mcusick]

Evolutionist: Humans are descended from apes.
Creationist: Heresy! That destroys man's divine dignity! Man was made from the dirt!

Come on guys. I'm not seeing enough angry squabbling. You can do better. :ymapplause:

[Red]

ad ho·mi·nem
ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adverb & adjective
adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem

1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

My comments were completely directed towards the position you stated.

How so? All I read was you telling me I was willfully ignorant. Rather rude. You didn't present any argument.

The argument at hand (not the backhanded personality assaults) is: Are you going to tell me how God created the world in your own words?

[Red]

Evolutionist: Humans are descended from apes.
Creationist: Heresy! That destroys man's divine dignity! Man was made from the dirt!

Come on guys. I'm not seeing enough angry squabbling. You can do better. :ymapplause:

Lol, pretty funny. And a point made all at the same time. Good job.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

The quote very clearly states how plants and animals came to to this world and scripture also tells us the rule they follow while here.

Now a little reasoning on the earth it's self.
The Gods started with "matter unorganized", right? Do you agree? We are taught that.
Is the earth organized or unorganized?
Are pieces of an earth organized or unorganized?
Are meteorites organized or unorganized?
Is dust organized or unorganized?
Are compounds organized or unorganized?
Are molecules organized or unorganized?
Are atoms organized or unorganized?
Are subatomic particles organized or unorganized?

If the starting point was indeed "matter unorganized",
what in the above list did they start with.

I would guess that they had to organize the subatomic particles before they coulld work their way up the rest of the list.

Don't you think? Before you answer, you aught to remember where the earth was created and what the conditions were like there.
Ok, now what do you think? Oh, before you answer that, I'll let you in on a little more.

2 Nephi 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Matter does nothing on it's own, some little intelligence has to push it around.
If you can observe some matter following some rules of behavior, it's not the matter
following the rules, its the intelligence pushing the matter around according to the rules.

Ok, Now what do you think?
Yep, really this time, what did the Gods start with to make the world?
Remember, they told you thay started with "matter unorganized".

[Red]

The quote very clearly states how plants and animals came to to this world and scripture also tells us the rule they follow while here.

Now a little reasoning on the earth it's self.
The Gods started with "matter unorganized", right? Do you agree? We are taught that.
Is the earth organized or unorganized?
Are pieces of an earth organized or unorganized?
Are meteorites organized or unorganized?
Is dust organized or unorganized?
Are compounds organized or unorganized?
Are molecules organized or unorganized?
Are atoms organized or unorganized?
Are subatomic particles organized or unorganized?

If the starting point was indeed "matter unorganized",
what in the above list did they start with.

I would guess that they had to organize the subatomic particles before they coulld work their way up the rest of the list.

Don't you think? Before you answer, you aught to remember where the earth was created and what the conditions were like there.
Ok, now what do you think? Oh, before you answer that, I'll let you in on a little more.

2 Nephi 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Matter does nothing on it's own, some little intelligence has to push it around.
If you can observe some matter following some rules of behavior, it's not the matter
following the rules, its the intelligence pushing the matter around according to the rules.

Ok, Now what do you think?
Yep, really this time, what did the Gods start with to make the world?
Remember, they told you thay started with "matter unorganized".

You still didn't answer the question. All you said was what ingredient they started with. It's ok to say that you don't know. I don't know myself. The point is that you can't discount methods of creation when you don't know how the world was created yourself. All you know is that God directed it to be done. Michael followed the directions. No greater detail was given. You have no idea how creation happened any more than I do. Back to the cake example, I could give you all the ingredients to bake a cake, and maybe you'll mix it up right and it'll turn out ok, but you won't know why it turned out ok. You won't know why you needed baking powder. You may not know what it even does. You may not know why you needed eggs or what it does. It's the same with creation. We don't know how exactly. We know a little bit because we've figured out a little along the way, but we certainly don't know it all. What we do know is the patterns we observe in nature are pretty indicative of how it likely happened. Not with certainty of course, but likely.

You haven't even realized yet that I'm not even arguing with you on what method God used to create the world. I'm only arguing to not discount any method because you have no way of knowing what method(s) God used.

[skmo]

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.

No, we know the outline of how He did it. Unless He's been giving you and others private instruction about sub-atomic particle laws and manipulation of gravity, space, and dark matter, there's still so much more information to be learned in exactly how He did it that our minds aren't yet capable of comprehending that much information.

It's like my wife's gall bladder operation. I know the outline of how it's done, that doesn't mean I know to specifically cut into someone, inject the laparoscopic tools and use them to separate and remove the gall bladder, seal the duct, and withdraw the tools. We know He sent individuals to do it, little more. We also have been given no clear time frame in when it was all done, and it's very likely there are a great many things we don't specifically know and won't until we're enlightened to a degree we don't understand yet.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.

Which is why we admit there's a lot we don't know that we may believe we still need to learn. That has nothing to do with the fact that we give Glory and Honor to Him who created us, and, as He did, we walk step by step to learn to walk before we learn to run. To take milk before we take meat, just as He told us we needed to do.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

I agree with you there, to a degree. All people have a degree of ignorance in them. It's part of being human. The idea is to NOT be willfully ignorant like people who say "The earth is only 6,000 years old, and the Bible proves it, and if you disagree you're a godless heathen and you're going to burn forever in hell." I've rarely heard that line in person without it being uttered in a Southern drawl, though I've heard similar things in an Intermountain West haughtiness.

Make no mistake, people all over the country world have different things they're ignorant about, but in my opinion it's a healthy thing to admit to and try to make some amends by trying to learn. It'll be a fruitless process by comparison to what we'll learn in eternity, but perfection isn't a goal for us currently, it's a direction to follow.

[skmo]

Evolutionist: Humans are descended from apes.
Creationist: Heresy! That destroys man's divine dignity! Man was made from the dirt!

Come on guys. I'm not seeing enough angry squabbling. You can do better. :ymapplause:

It's rare that I see the kind of sarcastic, cynical humor here that I really love. Bravo, sir or madam, bravo.

[Michelle]

Man, I can't believe I am letting myself get pulled into this discussion. I don't expect to change the minds of those who are posting arguments above, but for silent readers lets consider one more point:

If modern science with all its limitations is able to create clones of animals, why would God have man evolve from primordial soup? Is he limited in his ability to create a human body and place a soul in it? Wouldn't even that make more sense than evolution across millions of years?

Who mentioned primordial soup? I can't recall anyone on this thread mentioning that.

mcusick

Thanks for saving me a ton of time

One verse that stuck out to me several years ago, was Abraham 4: 20-21 (and equivalents):
And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.
And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

Every living creature had origins in the waters. I read that and realized it sounded a lot like the "primordial soup".

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

You still didn't answer the question. All you said was what ingredient they started with. It's ok to say that you don't know. I don't know myself. The point is that you can't discount methods of creation when you don't know how the world was created yourself. All you know is that God directed it to be done. Michael followed the directions. No greater detail was given. You have no idea how creation happened any more than I do. Back to the cake example, I could give you all the ingredients to bake a cake, and maybe you'll mix it up right and it'll turn out ok, but you won't know why it turned out ok. You won't know why you needed baking powder. You may not know what it even does. You may not know why you needed eggs or what it does. It's the same with creation. We don't know how exactly. We know a little bit because we've figured out a little along the way, but we certainly don't know it all. What we do know is the patterns we observe in nature are pretty indicative of how it likely happened. Not with certainty of course, but likely.

You haven't even realized yet that I'm not even arguing with you on what method God used to create the world. I'm only arguing to not discount any method because you have no way of knowing what method(s) God used.

I'm not arguing with anyone.
I stated what was said about how life came to this world.
I don't know who, I guess you said something about how the earth was formed.
So I passed on what I know, just like I did with life.

I never said that I knew everything, I even ask what do you think?

So, What do you think about what I said?
Better yet, do you know what true messengers from the Father have said?

[larsenb]

I always find it ironic to hear people attack science by using the fruits of science while living an incredibly comfortable life that wouldn't exist without science.

I am no fan of modern life and the "fruits" of modern science. I accept the times I live in and look forward to the times to come. I have said for nearly my whole life, and meant it, and still do today,"If I wasn't a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I would be Amish." I have taken as many steps as I can at this time to walk back from the modern world and will continue to do so. Each step "back" has resulted in better physical,
mental and spiritual health. (This website is the only place you will find me online, and that only because I crave gospel discussion and it is awfully hard to find people who speak face to face anymore. But even with that I have begun to pray that the Lord will lead me to such people in real life and then I will cut this tie as well.)

I don't believe God made a mistake when he commanded Adam to till the earth and earn his bread by the sweat of his brow. Adam lived 1000 years, we don't live that long today. Are we healthier?

Adam and the early patriarchs were taught by God and angles and Enoch was able to establish the City of Zion. Are we closer to building Zion and to God today because of modern science and technology? Are our families more unified? Do we really know more? Or do we know more trivia and assume that equates with wisdom? 2 Timothy Chapter 3 describes a lot of the lamentable characteristics of our day. Verse 7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." That about sums up my feelings about the modern world and our accumulation of trivia, but lack of wisdom.

The scriptures are full of truths ignored. Just a couple of examples:

In the Old Testament the Israelite's were taught about sanitation: washing and cleaning, defecating outside of camp and burying it, not eating old meat, avoiding certain animals for food that were more likely to cause parasites and illness, quarantining their sick, etc. They weren't given a course in Germ Theory or a degree to teach these truths. Just wise advice from a loving God who made them. Any who followed the law received the benefit, even if they didn't understand germs. Any who broke the law, risked illness and death. But how often do we applaud modern science for discovering germs and saving so much of mankind from the misery of those diseases?

Why did it take science restating what God said in a different way for people to listen? What's worse is how long medicine tried to cure men by foolish practices such as blood letting or encouraging smoking or drinking. Or even preaching the benefits of radiation in cosmetics and medicine. (That last lie still won't die actually.)

Some other truths that are still ignored: the Israelite's were commanded to not mix seeds and animal breeds (think Mendel and his peas leading to GMO) or even the cloth they wore (modern polyester is basically plastic: a hormone disrupter, that we wear on our skin.) They were commanded to let the land rest every 7 years and then till it all back in (old fashioned composting?) No chemicals needed.

When will we learn to take God at his word. I don't dispute that over time men have discovered some of God's truths, but they have a knack for using them to their own destruction whether because of lack of understanding how it all fits together or just plain willful wickedness.

Good post. I can't disagree.

[Michelle]

Seriously, consider "not intelligent enough to be the first man and become like God humans" the biological father and mother of Adam. So, he's a baby and then what? They keep him alive like others of their species until when? At what point does God show up and say "Adam! I'm here to teach you!" And Eve. What about her? Is she a sister? A Cousin? A daughter? Who were her parents and why the reference about her being from Adam? How do they choose each other as mates? The only two who are smart enough? Are they both able to talk. Could their parents communicate vocally in this way? Are they bi-lingual both animal and human speech? Is this something God teaches them? (The Adamic language) And what does all this mean for modern revelation and the temple movies. That's an awful lot of symbolism to wade through if Adam really came from apes, or cave men or whatever. This gets pretty crazy pretty fast doesn't it?

So, for the sake of argument, Adam is born of a not human, grows up however, finally has a meeting with God. What about the Garden of Eden? It says everything grows spontaneously, no death before he partakes of the fruit, no weeds until he does. Why did that not stay that same, because God intervened? Well then what kept him from intervening before? If he can change the rules for a planet and how things grow, why can no other rules change from the "theory" of the Big Bang. Why couldn't he skip evolution to create Adam as he was without non human parents? Then start the human species from that point?

What about the fact that things are created spiritually and then physically and that the spirit and physical look the same. Think of Christ showing himself to the brother of Jared. Do we need to considers spiritual evolution then as well? Are we descended from spiritual not Gods? How does that even work? What about God being Eternal and having no beginning or end? How does organizing intelligence play into these various scenarios?

At what point does one who believes in evolution jump from universe set in motion and left to evolve to God appearing on the scene and changing the rules? Is everything in the scriptures symbolic? How do you decide what is revelation and what is symbolism.

It might be interesting for some to consider the one question: evolution or creation. But really, it has to be connected to the rest of the gospel. Try connecting evolution, it just falls apart really quickly. We've only scratched the surface with some of the questions I posted above. I could keep going, but to what end?

I too had BYU professors who professed to believe and taught evolution. I enjoyed many things about their classes, I learned some interesting trivia. I still believe they were wrong on this point and there is ample evidence from the writings and teachings of actual prophets to suggest otherwise. I trust in the arm of God over the arm of flesh.

[Seek the Truth]

People were once burned at the stake for professing heretical beliefs such as that matter was composed of atoms, or that the earth orbited the sun. The church felt that such beliefs led to atheism and threatened its very existence, or at the very least its power and influence.

Now, I think I can safely say that it has been firmly established that matter is composed of atoms, and the earth does orbit the sun. I'd even go as far to wager that most people who accept these facts also believe in God, and I'd go even further and bet that very few of us can even remember why these scientific ideas were ever thought to be heretical. Why should atomic theory or heliocentrism lead to atheism? Seems silly today.

I think it's clear that the prevailing theories in science today are those best supported by the evidence, and that would include organic evolution and even the Big Bang. I'm not saying either of those are as well established as the existence of atoms, far from it. I'm not even saying they ever will be. Maybe overwhelming evidence for these ideas never materializes and they eventually fall out of fashion and are replaced by new, better supported theories. There's no telling.

What I do believe is that if the evidence for organic evolution, the Big Bang, or any other scientific theory that scares the church and religious believers right now ever does become as rock solid as that underlying modern chemistry or astronomy, religion doesn't have anything to worry about. People will simply accept that chickens evolved from dinosaurs, and the universe started with the Big Bang, as well established fact—and won't even remember why those ideas were once thought to be relevant to their religious beliefs, let alone threatening to them.

Big bang and organic evolution are at pretty good odds with scripture, atoms and geocentrism do not.

[Spaced_Out]

I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

Yes Adam was the first flesh on the earth according to scriptures so there is no chance evolution was in play. And he was made using the dust of the earth, and breath of life (spirit) was put into the body. If the body is from another being how is another spirit put in there - all living things have a spirit.

All the animals came after that in the period of rest. The animals were with Adam in the Garden of Eden which was in a terrestrial state - no birth and not death, how does evolution work in that case. Also we are repeatedly taught that God commanded all the animals to only multiply in their respective orders. Zero chance of evolution and commanded by God to be as such.

It has been just under 6,000y since death entered the world the oldest living tree is about 5,000y. Viable DNA has been found in the dinosaur bones which puts the current understanding of age and date way out, it even destroys the rock dating the the geologist use. It is official teaching of the church that the earth was divided during the days of Peleg then will become one land again around the second coming. Ask the geologist they agree with the dividing but the timing is the problem.

In 3 Nephi we read of the destruction at the Crucifixion and that the Americas were one solid land mass but were forever broken up into seams etc after the 3 hour storm where many city's were buried and covered by mountains. This does not match current understanding of geological processes.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29879/6- ... rees-world

21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;
22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.
23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great.
24 And many highways shall be broken up, and many cities shall become desolate.

[JohnnyL]

More about that T-rex's friends: http://www.icr.org/fresh-fossils

www.icr.org, www.answersingenesis.org, and www.creationism.org are a few websites that give a very, very different point of view than "geology".
http://www.creationism.org/topbar/geology_en.htm

[Red]

Man, I can't believe I am letting myself get pulled into this discussion. I don't expect to change the minds of those who are posting arguments above, but for silent readers lets consider one more point:

If modern science with all its limitations is able to create clones of animals, why would God have man evolve from primordial soup? Is he limited in his ability to create a human body and place a soul in it? Wouldn't even that make more sense than evolution across millions of years?

Who mentioned primordial soup? I can't recall anyone on this thread mentioning that.

mcusick

Thanks for saving me a ton of time

One verse that stuck out to me several years ago, was Abraham 4: 20-21 (and equivalents):
And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.
And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

Every living creature had origins in the waters. I read that and realized it sounded a lot like the "primordial soup".

Wow, that's really interesting.

[Red]

You still didn't answer the question. All you said was what ingredient they started with. It's ok to say that you don't know. I don't know myself. The point is that you can't discount methods of creation when you don't know how the world was created yourself. All you know is that God directed it to be done. Michael followed the directions. No greater detail was given. You have no idea how creation happened any more than I do. Back to the cake example, I could give you all the ingredients to bake a cake, and maybe you'll mix it up right and it'll turn out ok, but you won't know why it turned out ok. You won't know why you needed baking powder. You may not know what it even does. You may not know why you needed eggs or what it does. It's the same with creation. We don't know how exactly. We know a little bit because we've figured out a little along the way, but we certainly don't know it all. What we do know is the patterns we observe in nature are pretty indicative of how it likely happened. Not with certainty of course, but likely.

You haven't even realized yet that I'm not even arguing with you on what method God used to create the world. I'm only arguing to not discount any method because you have no way of knowing what method(s) God used.

I'm not arguing with anyone.
I stated what was said about how life came to this world.
I don't know who, I guess you said something about how the earth was formed.
So I passed on what I know, just like I did with life.

I never said that I knew everything, I even ask what do you think?

So, What do you think about what I said?
Better yet, do you know what true messengers from the Father have said?

I pretty much think we have no idea of knowing how God created anything, we just have a few context clues that suggest how it likely happened. Given the way we have seen with our own eyes how species have evolved, it's likely that God uses evolution as a tool, because, after all, these species we see evolving before our eyes, like the Aussie skink, are creatures of God and he has enabled their evolution. I think the scriptures are largely representative and not designed to be literal ALL the time. Isaiah is a great example of that. So I can't say that God literally formed man from dust. There's likely a process he used to create man. I don't know what that process was.

I'm not sure who these true messengers are so I can't say that I know what they've said. It's a mystery to me.

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I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

Yes Adam was the first flesh on the earth according to scriptures so there is no chance evolution was in play. And he was made using the dust of the earth, and breath of life (spirit) was put into the body. If the body is from another being how is another spirit put in there - all living things have a spirit.

All the animals came after that in the period of rest. The animals were with Adam in the Garden of Eden which was in a terrestrial state - no birth and not death, how does evolution work in that case. Also we are repeatedly taught that God commanded all the animals to only multiply in their respective orders. Zero chance of evolution and commanded by God to be as such.

It has been just under 6,000y since death entered the world the oldest living tree is about 5,000y. Viable DNA has been found in the dinosaur bones which puts the current understanding of age and date way out, it even destroys the rock dating the the geologist use. It is official teaching of the church that the earth was divided during the days of Peleg then will become one land again around the second coming. Ask the geologist they agree with the dividing but the timing is the problem.

In 3 Nephi we read of the destruction at the Crucifixion and that the Americas were one solid land mass but were forever broken up into seams etc after the 3 hour storm where many city's were buried and covered by mountains. This does not match current understanding of geological processes.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29879/6- ... rees-world

21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;
22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.
23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great.
24 And many highways shall be broken up, and many cities shall become desolate.

But what does that mean, to use dust to create man? What is the process? You've given wonderful examples of the outcome of God's work, but you have not yet explained how it happened.

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Seriously, consider "not intelligent enough to be the first man and become like God humans" the biological father and mother of Adam. So, he's a baby and then what? They keep him alive like others of their species until when? At what point does God show up and say "Adam! I'm here to teach you!" And Eve. What about her? Is she a sister? A Cousin? A daughter? Who were her parents and why the reference about her being from Adam? How do they choose each other as mates? The only two who are smart enough? Are they both able to talk. Could their parents communicate vocally in this way? Are they bi-lingual both animal and human speech? Is this something God teaches them? (The Adamic language) And what does all this mean for modern revelation and the temple movies. That's an awful lot of symbolism to wade through if Adam really came from apes, or cave men or whatever. This gets pretty crazy pretty fast doesn't it?

So, for the sake of argument, Adam is born of a not human, grows up however, finally has a meeting with God. What about the Garden of Eden? It says everything grows spontaneously, no death before he partakes of the fruit, no weeds until he does. Why did that not stay that same, because God intervened? Well then what kept him from intervening before? If he can change the rules for a planet and how things grow, why can no other rules change from the "theory" of the Big Bang. Why couldn't he skip evolution to create Adam as he was without non human parents? Then start the human species from that point?

What about the fact that things are created spiritually and then physically and that the spirit and physical look the same. Think of Christ showing himself to the brother of Jared. Do we need to considers spiritual evolution then as well? Are we descended from spiritual not Gods? How does that even work? What about God being Eternal and having no beginning or end? How does organizing intelligence play into these various scenarios?

At what point does one who believes in evolution jump from universe set in motion and left to evolve to God appearing on the scene and changing the rules? Is everything in the scriptures symbolic? How do you decide what is revelation and what is symbolism.

It might be interesting for some to consider the one question: evolution or creation. But really, it has to be connected to the rest of the gospel. Try connecting evolution, it just falls apart really quickly. We've only scratched the surface with some of the questions I posted above. I could keep going, but to what end?

I too had BYU professors who professed to believe and taught evolution. I enjoyed many things about their classes, I learned some interesting trivia. I still believe they were wrong on this point and there is ample evidence from the writings and teachings of actual prophets to suggest otherwise. I trust in the arm of God over the arm of flesh.

Part of what you're missing is you only consider evolution to be the idea of ape to man. That's not the entirety of evolution. Evolution is the slow change of a species. It's generally so slow that most humans, without documentation, have a hard time keeping up with it. We live in an age where lots of records are kept and info is easily accessible. We have scientists who will study a species all of their human lives to document their evolution. Evolution is a real concept, but you're only looking at ape to man.

You asked, so we need to consider spiritual evolution as well, so I ask you, if that is not a real concept, then why are you on this forum? Are we not all here in a mortal probation for spiritual evolution?

No one is suggesting the "quick jump" you're referring to. That's absurd. What is being suggested is that there was a process to Gods creation. Sure, maybe it was spontaneous, I can't say how it happened. I'm only saying that since evolution is real, it's also plausible that God uses evolution as one of the tools in his tool bag of creation. You do realize tho that you're suggesting that God made man spontaneously in a mini Big Bang sort of theory? If that seems accurate to you, then great! It's always comforting to have a set belief system. I'm challenging you to consider that you may be assuming a lot about the methods of creation. I haven't heard you say anything yet that made me pause to consider. I see outcomes of creation quoted but no process. And as I said to Hiding, it's ok that we don't know. It's ok to outright say we don't know.