Creation/Evolution

[skmo]

I still believe they were wrong on this point and there is ample evidence from the writings and teachings of actual prophets to suggest otherwise. I trust in the arm of God over the arm of flesh.

If I misstated my point, I apologize. I don't go along with some of the most literal of mistaken ideas about evolution. Scientific evolution isn't just the "Scientists say we were monkeys and we learned how to become humans" that so many born-agains like to scream about in Kansas revivals. The best scientists usually aren't egotistical know-it-alls with closed minds about how smart they are and how right they are. Other than the political scientists who screech banshee-like about global warming, honest researchers will listen to opposing ideas, at least ones with a reasonable possibility of scientific credibility.

The idea of "apes to humans" isn't really a correct look at evolution, it's how anti-science religionists label evolution. We know that as God commands us to obey His laws, He also has laws He must follow. I believe some of those are principles of a scientific kind we can't yet comprehend, but they're things we'll learn one day if we follow His commandments and continue with our eternal progression. I too trust in the arm of God more than principles of flesh, but that doesn't mean the general authorities are always correct. Some apostles have said things I know for an indisputable fact to be incorrect, so I make it a practice to pray about everything I learn.

[Michelle]

Seriously, consider "not intelligent enough to be the first man and become like God humans" the biological father and mother of Adam. So, he's a baby and then what? They keep him alive like others of their species until when? At what point does God show up and say "Adam! I'm here to teach you!" And Eve. What about her? Is she a sister? A Cousin? A daughter? Who were her parents and why the reference about her being from Adam? How do they choose each other as mates? The only two who are smart enough? Are they both able to talk. Could their parents communicate vocally in this way? Are they bi-lingual both animal and human speech? Is this something God teaches them? (The Adamic language) And what does all this mean for modern revelation and the temple movies. That's an awful lot of symbolism to wade through if Adam really came from apes, or cave men or whatever. This gets pretty crazy pretty fast doesn't it?

So, for the sake of argument, Adam is born of a not human, grows up however, finally has a meeting with God. What about the Garden of Eden? It says everything grows spontaneously, no death before he partakes of the fruit, no weeds until he does. Why did that not stay that same, because God intervened? Well then what kept him from intervening before? If he can change the rules for a planet and how things grow, why can no other rules change from the "theory" of the Big Bang. Why couldn't he skip evolution to create Adam as he was without non human parents? Then start the human species from that point?

What about the fact that things are created spiritually and then physically and that the spirit and physical look the same. Think of Christ showing himself to the brother of Jared. Do we need to considers spiritual evolution then as well? Are we descended from spiritual not Gods? How does that even work? What about God being Eternal and having no beginning or end? How does organizing intelligence play into these various scenarios?

At what point does one who believes in evolution jump from universe set in motion and left to evolve to God appearing on the scene and changing the rules? Is everything in the scriptures symbolic? How do you decide what is revelation and what is symbolism.

It might be interesting for some to consider the one question: evolution or creation. But really, it has to be connected to the rest of the gospel. Try connecting evolution, it just falls apart really quickly. We've only scratched the surface with some of the questions I posted above. I could keep going, but to what end?

I too had BYU professors who professed to believe and taught evolution. I enjoyed many things about their classes, I learned some interesting trivia. I still believe they were wrong on this point and there is ample evidence from the writings and teachings of actual prophets to suggest otherwise. I trust in the arm of God over the arm of flesh.

Part of what you're missing is you only consider evolution to be the idea of ape to man. That's not the entirety of evolution. Evolution is the slow change of a species. It's generally so slow that most humans, without documentation, have a hard time keeping up with it. We live in an age where lots of records are kept and info is easily accessible. We have scientists who will study a species all of their human lives to document their evolution. Evolution is a real concept, but you're only looking at ape to man.

Red, you clearly did not read my other posts. I do believe in gradual adaption of species (call it evolution if you like) but not a big jump. It is those who believe in evolution that have to have a defining moment between a being who cannot become like God and the man Adam who can. That is the point of the questions, what does that "leap" look like.

You asked, so we need to consider spiritual evolution as well, so I ask you, if that is not a real concept, then why are you on this forum? Are we not all here in a mortal probation for spiritual evolution?

The post makes it clear I am speaking of evolution of our spiritual bodies (the spiritual bodies are physical bodies resemble) not spiritual growth as in learning to be like God.

No one is suggesting the "quick jump" you're referring to. That's absurd. What is being suggested is that there was a process to Gods creation. Sure, maybe it was spontaneous, I can't say how it happened. Since you misunderstood my post, this response doesn't make sense. I'm only saying that since evolution is real, it's also plausible that God uses evolution as one of the tools in his tool bag of creation. You do realize tho that you're suggesting that God made man spontaneously in a mini Big Bang sort of theory? If that seems accurate to you, then great! It's always comforting to have a set belief system. I'm challenging you to consider that you may be assuming a lot about the methods of creation. I haven't heard you say anything yet that made me pause to consider. Perhaps that is because you did not hear what I said. Your response to my comment didn't in any way indicate you understood what I wrote.I see outcomes of creation quoted but no process. And as I said to Hiding, it's ok that we don't know. It's ok to outright say we don't know.I agree we should admit what we do not know. And there is much that we do not know about this topic. Except, that there is also much that we DO know because of modern revelation. And we should not pretend it hasn't been revealed when it has.

[skmo]

Big bang and organic evolution are at pretty good odds with scripture, atoms and geocentrism do not.

I disagree to a certain extent. I have heard some researchers explain their idea that the "Big bang" is a representational concept of a process we theorize has happened but don't yet have enough data to analyze into a full theory. That makes sense to me. We know the Universe was created long ago, but we don't know exactly how or when. Is it possible the creation process began about 14 Billion years ago? I certainly haven't heard or read anything in the scriptures that says it didn't. Since it's not really pertinent to my salvation to figure that out right now, for those who are inclined to learn about it I wish them well if they can make a living trying to gain that knowledge. They may well be chasing butterflies or they may be learning of the earliest times when Jehovah first started gathering matter for Creation.

Evolution, when looked at as part of a process and not just the final concept can co-exist simultaneously with the idea of line upon line in my mind.

[Spaced_Out]

Has anyone posed "line upon line" creation? Taking elements that we see in the Evolution model, with other things we know about the Religious model. For example, like a child learning mathematics is taught first the easy stuff (add, subtract), then progresses to multiplication and division, then algebra, calculus...

For even Jehovah, the glorious Firstborn, to create what we have, would it not be necessary to be trained? "Begin here, with the easy stuff - go put a world together. Now give it these things. Now we will create life, since we have what we need for it." And step by step, he is taught the recipes of life. "Begin with the amoeba. Now try a plankton. Good, now, this fish, that fish, this whale. Other things we can make from this fish and that fish. And on and on until the final crowning achievement - man, in the image of God. What could be more grand, and therefore, more complex?

Now, I haven't given this too much thought, and haven't heard it previously mentioned. I can't say for sure what is true about it and not yet. But, would it not potentially satisfy both observations of science and faith?

How many times must this be repeated - Adam was the first flesh on the earth the plants, and animals came later... They were all created spiritually and then the spirit placed into a mortal body. If Adam was the first flesh on earth how was his body made using other life forms.

1 Corinthians 15:39
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Creating a physical or mortal body is nothing - the work involved was creating a spiritual bodies and organising them - it took 6 days to accomplish the spiritual creation and a small part of the 7th day to put Adam on the earth then create the garden of Eden and place him him there with Eve.

We are the offspring of God why would he need lesser intelligence to create a spiritual son or daughter.

When a person is heals by the PH they are made new in an instant. For example the healing of Naaman from leprosy, his skin was completely regrown in an instant and became again like the skin of a child. The physical creation is so simple - those that believe in evolution of the physical are denying the scriptures and simply refuse to understand that God command the animals to only multiply in their respective orders, and that the physical body is after the fashion of the spiritual body. The spiritual body is designed to the capacity of the intelligence that was given the spiritual body - such a spiritual body with intelligence cant evolve past that - can the daisy or the ant evolve to become a god and have multiple spiritual body crated for it and multiple mortal probation to progress, till all intelligence becomes a god. That is what you are proposing with evolution.

How can a lesser intelligence create a higher intelligence. Take the spirit of a blade of grass and command it to evolve into a tree then take the spirit of a tree and put it into that evolved tree. @-) @-)

Naaman, the Syrian, comes to Elisha to be healed of leprosy
14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

[Spaced_Out]

Big bang and organic evolution are at pretty good odds with scripture, atoms and geocentrism do not.

I disagree to a certain extent. I have heard some researchers explain their idea that the "Big bang" is a representational concept of a process we theorize has happened but don't yet have enough data to analyze into a full theory. That makes sense to me. We know the Universe was created long ago, but we don't know exactly how or when. Is it possible the creation process began about 14 Billion years ago? I certainly haven't heard or read anything in the scriptures that says it didn't. Since it's not really pertinent to my salvation to figure that out right now, for those who are inclined to learn about it I wish them well if they can make a living trying to gain that knowledge. They may well be chasing butterflies or they may be learning of the earliest times when Jehovah first started gathering matter for Creation.

Evolution, when looked at as part of a process and not just the final concept can co-exist simultaneously with the idea of line upon line in my mind.

Matter can't be created or destroyed neither can intelligence be created, the process is not random big bang that made things. There are God's all the way back throughout all eternity and the process is repeated billions upon billions of times over and over.

One day those that remain faithful will one day become a creator and give intelligence a spiritual body then prepare earths for them - why is evolution needed and it makes no seance as the spirit body is crated to the capacity of the intelligence and the moral body as well.

The intelligence is limited to its capacity and there is no progression beyond that. Sons and daughters of God don't progress to a more perfected body as we are in the image of God we cant evolve to a higher perfection as to our bodies (ignoring mortal weakness for the moment), likewise will all animals they cant evolve to better body than what was created for them, it is simply minor adaptions to the terrestrial environment the body is placed in.. The body is in the likeness of the spirit and was created in perfection and when it dies will go back to that state.

In the Resurrection we get our bodies back in perfection to our spiritual creation any evolving done in the physical will not rise in the resurrection. as the spiritual body is created in perfection.

[Red]

Seriously, consider "not intelligent enough to be the first man and become like God humans" the biological father and mother of Adam. So, he's a baby and then what? They keep him alive like others of their species until when? At what point does God show up and say "Adam! I'm here to teach you!" And Eve. What about her? Is she a sister? A Cousin? A daughter? Who were her parents and why the reference about her being from Adam? How do they choose each other as mates? The only two who are smart enough? Are they both able to talk. Could their parents communicate vocally in this way? Are they bi-lingual both animal and human speech? Is this something God teaches them? (The Adamic language) And what does all this mean for modern revelation and the temple movies. That's an awful lot of symbolism to wade through if Adam really came from apes, or cave men or whatever. This gets pretty crazy pretty fast doesn't it?

So, for the sake of argument, Adam is born of a not human, grows up however, finally has a meeting with God. What about the Garden of Eden? It says everything grows spontaneously, no death before he partakes of the fruit, no weeds until he does. Why did that not stay that same, because God intervened? Well then what kept him from intervening before? If he can change the rules for a planet and how things grow, why can no other rules change from the "theory" of the Big Bang. Why couldn't he skip evolution to create Adam as he was without non human parents? Then start the human species from that point?

What about the fact that things are created spiritually and then physically and that the spirit and physical look the same. Think of Christ showing himself to the brother of Jared. Do we need to considers spiritual evolution then as well? Are we descended from spiritual not Gods? How does that even work? What about God being Eternal and having no beginning or end? How does organizing intelligence play into these various scenarios?

At what point does one who believes in evolution jump from universe set in motion and left to evolve to God appearing on the scene and changing the rules? Is everything in the scriptures symbolic? How do you decide what is revelation and what is symbolism.

It might be interesting for some to consider the one question: evolution or creation. But really, it has to be connected to the rest of the gospel. Try connecting evolution, it just falls apart really quickly. We've only scratched the surface with some of the questions I posted above. I could keep going, but to what end?

I too had BYU professors who professed to believe and taught evolution. I enjoyed many things about their classes, I learned some interesting trivia. I still believe they were wrong on this point and there is ample evidence from the writings and teachings of actual prophets to suggest otherwise. I trust in the arm of God over the arm of flesh.

Part of what you're missing is you only consider evolution to be the idea of ape to man. That's not the entirety of evolution. Evolution is the slow change of a species. It's generally so slow that most humans, without documentation, have a hard time keeping up with it. We live in an age where lots of records are kept and info is easily accessible. We have scientists who will study a species all of their human lives to document their evolution. Evolution is a real concept, but you're only looking at ape to man.

Red, you clearly did not read my other posts. I do believe in gradual adaption of species (call it evolution if you like) but not a big jump. It is those who believe in evolution that have to have a defining moment between a being who cannot become like God and the man Adam who can. That is the point of the questions, what does that "leap" look like.

You asked, so we need to consider spiritual evolution as well, so I ask you, if that is not a real concept, then why are you on this forum? Are we not all here in a mortal probation for spiritual evolution?

The post makes it clear I am speaking of evolution of our spiritual bodies (the spiritual bodies are physical bodies resemble) not spiritual growth as in learning to be like God.

No one is suggesting the "quick jump" you're referring to. That's absurd. What is being suggested is that there was a process to Gods creation. Sure, maybe it was spontaneous, I can't say how it happened. Since you misunderstood my post, this response doesn't make sense. I'm only saying that since evolution is real, it's also plausible that God uses evolution as one of the tools in his tool bag of creation. You do realize tho that you're suggesting that God made man spontaneously in a mini Big Bang sort of theory? If that seems accurate to you, then great! It's always comforting to have a set belief system. I'm challenging you to consider that you may be assuming a lot about the methods of creation. I haven't heard you say anything yet that made me pause to consider. Perhaps that is because you did not hear what I said. Your response to my comment didn't in any way indicate you understood what I wrote.I see outcomes of creation quoted but no process. And as I said to Hiding, it's ok that we don't know. It's ok to outright say we don't know.I agree we should admit what we do not know. And there is much that we do not know about this topic. Except, that there is also much that we DO know because of modern revelation. And we should not pretend it hasn't been revealed when it has.

Can you give examples that of the modern revelation on the process please?

[Red]

I like what your professor said. The basic point is that we know God created man. There's no doubt about that. We just don't know HOW He did it. It could be any number or mixture of ways. But we see too much evolution in our own time to deny that it is real and God likely uses it. It's like baking a cake. It takes time and the right chemistry to make it. Lots of components, and in the end, it's transformed to something amazing. Why wouldn't God use evolution to create? It's perfectly logical.

Yes we do know how he did it. we know exactly how he did it.
He sent true messengers to tell us how we did it.
And ignoring them only adds to our ignorance
and does not change how he did it.

To be ignorant is one thing, but to chose ignorance is something else.
To ignore the teachings of the Lords anointed if foolish at best.

I have not been on this forum very long, but level of wilful
ignorance is astounding.

Yes Adam was the first flesh on the earth according to scriptures so there is no chance evolution was in play. And he was made using the dust of the earth, HOW?and breath of life (spirit) was put into the body. If the body is from another being how is another spirit put in there - all living things have a spirit.

All the animals came after that in the period of rest. The animals were with Adam in the Garden of Eden which was in a terrestrial state - no birth and not death, how does evolution work in that case. Also we are repeatedly taught that God commanded all the animals to only multiply in their respective orders. please define. Zero chance of evolution and commanded by God to be as such.

It has been just under 6,000y since death entered the world the oldest living tree is about 5,000y. Viable DNA has been found in the dinosaur bones which puts the current understanding of age and date way out, it even destroys the rock dating the the geologist use. It is official teaching of the church that the earth was divided during the days of Peleg then will become one land again around the second coming. Ask the geologist they agree with the dividing but the timing is the problem.

In 3 Nephi we read of the destruction at the Crucifixion and that the Americas were one solid land mass but were forever broken up into seams etc after the 3 hour storm where many city's were buried and covered by mountains. This does not match current understanding of geological processes.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29879/6- ... rees-world

21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;
22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.
23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great.
24 And many highways shall be broken up, and many cities shall become desolate.

[Michelle]

Seriously, consider "not intelligent enough to be the first man and become like God humans" the biological father and mother of Adam. So, he's a baby and then what? They keep him alive like others of their species until when? At what point does God show up and say "Adam! I'm here to teach you!" And Eve. What about her? Is she a sister? A Cousin? A daughter? Who were her parents and why the reference about her being from Adam? How do they choose each other as mates? The only two who are smart enough? Are they both able to talk. Could their parents communicate vocally in this way? Are they bi-lingual both animal and human speech? Is this something God teaches them? (The Adamic language) And what does all this mean for modern revelation and the temple movies. That's an awful lot of symbolism to wade through if Adam really came from apes, or cave men or whatever. This gets pretty crazy pretty fast doesn't it?

So, for the sake of argument, Adam is born of a not human, grows up however, finally has a meeting with God. What about the Garden of Eden? It says everything grows spontaneously, no death before he partakes of the fruit, no weeds until he does. Why did that not stay that same, because God intervened? Well then what kept him from intervening before? If he can change the rules for a planet and how things grow, why can no other rules change from the "theory" of the Big Bang. Why couldn't he skip evolution to create Adam as he was without non human parents? Then start the human species from that point?

What about the fact that things are created spiritually and then physically and that the spirit and physical look the same. Think of Christ showing himself to the brother of Jared. Do we need to considers spiritual evolution then as well? Are we descended from spiritual not Gods? How does that even work? What about God being Eternal and having no beginning or end? How does organizing intelligence play into these various scenarios?

At what point does one who believes in evolution jump from universe set in motion and left to evolve to God appearing on the scene and changing the rules? Is everything in the scriptures symbolic? How do you decide what is revelation and what is symbolism.

It might be interesting for some to consider the one question: evolution or creation. But really, it has to be connected to the rest of the gospel. Try connecting evolution, it just falls apart really quickly. We've only scratched the surface with some of the questions I posted above. I could keep going, but to what end?

I too had BYU professors who professed to believe and taught evolution. I enjoyed many things about their classes, I learned some interesting trivia. I still believe they were wrong on this point and there is ample evidence from the writings and teachings of actual prophets to suggest otherwise. I trust in the arm of God over the arm of flesh.

Part of what you're missing is you only consider evolution to be the idea of ape to man. That's not the entirety of evolution. Evolution is the slow change of a species. It's generally so slow that most humans, without documentation, have a hard time keeping up with it. We live in an age where lots of records are kept and info is easily accessible. We have scientists who will study a species all of their human lives to document their evolution. Evolution is a real concept, but you're only looking at ape to man.

Red, you clearly did not read my other posts. I do believe in gradual adaption of species (call it evolution if you like) but not a big jump. It is those who believe in evolution that have to have a defining moment between a being who cannot become like God and the man Adam who can. That is the point of the questions, what does that "leap" look like.

You asked, so we need to consider spiritual evolution as well, so I ask you, if that is not a real concept, then why are you on this forum? Are we not all here in a mortal probation for spiritual evolution?

The post makes it clear I am speaking of evolution of our spiritual bodies (the spiritual bodies are physical bodies resemble) not spiritual growth as in learning to be like God.

No one is suggesting the "quick jump" you're referring to. That's absurd. What is being suggested is that there was a process to Gods creation. Sure, maybe it was spontaneous, I can't say how it happened. Since you misunderstood my post, this response doesn't make sense. I'm only saying that since evolution is real, it's also plausible that God uses evolution as one of the tools in his tool bag of creation. You do realize tho that you're suggesting that God made man spontaneously in a mini Big Bang sort of theory? If that seems accurate to you, then great! It's always comforting to have a set belief system. I'm challenging you to consider that you may be assuming a lot about the methods of creation. I haven't heard you say anything yet that made me pause to consider. Perhaps that is because you did not hear what I said. Your response to my comment didn't in any way indicate you understood what I wrote.I see outcomes of creation quoted but no process. And as I said to Hiding, it's ok that we don't know. It's ok to outright say we don't know.I agree we should admit what we do not know. And there is much that we do not know about this topic. Except, that there is also much that we DO know because of modern revelation. And we should not pretend it hasn't been revealed when it has.

Can you give examples that of the modern revelation on the process please?

I already did Red. And so have others.

I'm starting to go with the idea that you are willfully ignorant, either that, or just messing with the rest of us.

[Red]

Part of what you're missing is you only consider evolution to be the idea of ape to man. That's not the entirety of evolution. Evolution is the slow change of a species. It's generally so slow that most humans, without documentation, have a hard time keeping up with it. We live in an age where lots of records are kept and info is easily accessible. We have scientists who will study a species all of their human lives to document their evolution. Evolution is a real concept, but you're only looking at ape to man.

Red, you clearly did not read my other posts. I do believe in gradual adaption of species (call it evolution if you like) but not a big jump. It is those who believe in evolution that have to have a defining moment between a being who cannot become like God and the man Adam who can. That is the point of the questions, what does that "leap" look like.

You asked, so we need to consider spiritual evolution as well, so I ask you, if that is not a real concept, then why are you on this forum? Are we not all here in a mortal probation for spiritual evolution?

The post makes it clear I am speaking of evolution of our spiritual bodies (the spiritual bodies are physical bodies resemble) not spiritual growth as in learning to be like God.

No one is suggesting the "quick jump" you're referring to. That's absurd. What is being suggested is that there was a process to Gods creation. Sure, maybe it was spontaneous, I can't say how it happened. Since you misunderstood my post, this response doesn't make sense. I'm only saying that since evolution is real, it's also plausible that God uses evolution as one of the tools in his tool bag of creation. You do realize tho that you're suggesting that God made man spontaneously in a mini Big Bang sort of theory? If that seems accurate to you, then great! It's always comforting to have a set belief system. I'm challenging you to consider that you may be assuming a lot about the methods of creation. I haven't heard you say anything yet that made me pause to consider. Perhaps that is because you did not hear what I said. Your response to my comment didn't in any way indicate you understood what I wrote.I see outcomes of creation quoted but no process. And as I said to Hiding, it's ok that we don't know. It's ok to outright say we don't know.I agree we should admit what we do not know. And there is much that we do not know about this topic. Except, that there is also much that we DO know because of modern revelation. And we should not pretend it hasn't been revealed when it has.

Can you give examples that of the modern revelation on the process please?

I already did Red. And so have others.

I'm starting to go with the idea that you are willfully ignorant, either that, or just messing with the rest of us.

lol, i'm neither. the scriptures you quoted do not outline a creationary process. They outline the directions given, something I have also already stated. perhaps it is you that is willfully ignorant or messing around. There is a critical thinking process that you're overlooking and when I ask you to give the examples that prove the thought, you cannot do it because you've overlooked that step.

[Red]

Has anyone posed "line upon line" creation? Taking elements that we see in the Evolution model, with other things we know about the Religious model. For example, like a child learning mathematics is taught first the easy stuff (add, subtract), then progresses to multiplication and division, then algebra, calculus...

For even Jehovah, the glorious Firstborn, to create what we have, would it not be necessary to be trained? "Begin here, with the easy stuff - go put a world together. Now give it these things. Now we will create life, since we have what we need for it." And step by step, he is taught the recipes of life. "Begin with the amoeba. Now try a plankton. Good, now, this fish, that fish, this whale. Other things we can make from this fish and that fish. And on and on until the final crowning achievement - man, in the image of God. What could be more grand, and therefore, more complex?

Now, I haven't given this too much thought, and haven't heard it previously mentioned. I can't say for sure what is true about it and not yet. But, would it not potentially satisfy both observations of science and faith?

sounds pretty good to me. it makes sense too.

[Red]

There are two different topics here.
The creation of the earth. Not much explanation has been given.
But there are a few things. In Abraham or maybe Moses
Go google "The real Atonement" also called "THE ATONEMENT TALK by Skousen.
Or look at my posts, I've posted it on an other thread.

But back to where I was
But there are a few things. In Abraham or maybe Moses
we are told that the Gods told the elements what to do
and then waited for them to obey.
We are also told that their raw material was matter unorganized.
All matter we know of, from complete galaxys down to subatomic
particles are organized, the have rules they obey and there is order to them.
So the starting place was not bits of other worlds, it was lower than the lowest
modern science knows of. The real atonement will tell you what it is.
But in short, everything is made of two things. Things that act and things that are
acted upon. That is the starting point, the raw materials, not parts of old worlds,
not asteroids, not interstellar dust, not compounds, not molecules, not atoms,
not sub-atomic particles. All of these are already organized and they started with
matter unorganized.
Fabulous, but this neither proves nor disproves evolution or any other method of creation.

The other part is how life came to be on this planet after all that matter unorganized
learned to be organized and obeyed to form an earth in the same way all world have ever
been organized.
That is actually real simple. The only thing that can create a Tiger body is a tiger body,
And what happens when the first Tiger body has evolved so much that it's much smaller (or larger) than the latest tiger body? is that not evolution?
the only thing that can create a horse body is a horse body. the only thing that can create
a human body is a human body. There is no original Tiger.
And what about the skink mentioned in my other posts? is a skink that lays eggs not an original skink and the new skink with the placenta a new skink?
There is no first horse, and the
same with humans and every other form of life. There never was a first anything.
you haven't proved this scripturally yet, you can't, not anymore than I can or can't prove any other method. You are choosing to ignore that evolution is all around you and it always has been, that it is a method created by God.
There
was never a time when any form of life that exists now did not exist.
What abour grolar bears?
They have always
been and always will. So how did they get here, Adam brought them from another
world when he came here to live such that he could do what he told all other life to do,
multiply after their own kind.

[Red]

Matter can't be created or destroyed neither can intelligence be created,

Clearly.

The intelligence is limited to its capacity and there is no progression beyond that.
lol, agreed.

[Michelle]

Can you give examples that of the modern revelation on the process please?

I already did Red. And so have others.

I'm starting to go with the idea that you are willfully ignorant, either that, or just messing with the rest of us.

lol, i'm neither. the scriptures you quoted do not outline a creationary process. They outline the directions given, something I have also already stated. perhaps it is you that is willfully ignorant or messing around. There is a critical thinking process that you're overlooking and when I ask you to give the examples that prove the thought, you cannot do it because you've overlooked that step.

Red, one last time. Here is one piece of what has already been shared. Think of it as a sort of summary. You could actually read all the posts in the thread and see the rest of what people shared as well.

The Origin of Man
By the First Presidency of the Church
Joseph F. Smith
John R. Winder
Anthon H. Lund

1. Adam not from lower orders of the animal creation. "Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father."

"It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father.

2. Again, process was not evolution. Nothing less than "the human germ or embryo that becomes a man."

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.

3. We are duty bound to "receive and retain" what has already been revealed.

Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the- ... n?lang=eng

[Red]

Can you give examples that of the modern revelation on the process please?

I already did Red. And so have others.

I'm starting to go with the idea that you are willfully ignorant, either that, or just messing with the rest of us.

lol, i'm neither. the scriptures you quoted do not outline a creationary process. They outline the directions given, something I have also already stated. perhaps it is you that is willfully ignorant or messing around. There is a critical thinking process that you're overlooking and when I ask you to give the examples that prove the thought, you cannot do it because you've overlooked that step.

Red, one last time. Here is one piece of what has already been shared. Think of it as a sort of summary. You could actually read all the posts in the thread and see the rest of what people shared as well.

The Origin of Man
By the First Presidency of the Church
Joseph F. Smith
John R. Winder
Anthon H. Lund

1. Adam not from lower orders of the animal creation. "Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father."

"It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father.

2. Again, process was not evolution. Nothing less than "the human germ or embryo that becomes a man."

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.

3. We are duty bound to "receive and retain" what has already been revealed.

Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the- ... n?lang=eng

Michelle, one last time, you are ignoring all other aspects of evolution in favor of being hung up on humans. You are hung up on that and ignoring the rest because you have no answer and you can't answer any of the questions I asked. You admitted yourself that "Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain." You cannot disprove evolution because you refuse to look at evolution outside of humans.

[Michelle]

Michelle, one last time, you are ignoring all other aspects of evolution in favor of being hung up on humans. You are hung up on that and ignoring the rest because you have no answer and you can't answer any of the questions I asked. You admitted yourself that "Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain." You cannot disprove evolution because you refuse to look at evolution outside of humans.

Wow, you just totally ignore what you don't want to hear. Already been revealed and and discussed. Check out some of the other posts, not even just mine: the whole thread. Read them with the intent to comprehend what is written. Or don't ;) I'm done discussing this with you.

Matthew 13:14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"

[Red]

Michelle, one last time, you are ignoring all other aspects of evolution in favor of being hung up on humans. You are hung up on that and ignoring the rest because you have no answer and you can't answer any of the questions I asked. You admitted yourself that "Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain." You cannot disprove evolution because you refuse to look at evolution outside of humans.

Wow, you just totally ignore what you don't want to hear. Already been revealed and and discussed. Check out some of the other posts, not even just mine: the whole thread. Read them with the intent to comprehend what is written. Or don't ;) I'm done discussing this with you.

Matthew 13:14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"

The same could be said of you. I read it and I'm done with you as well.

[Spaced_Out]

And what happens when the first Tiger body has evolved so much that it's much smaller (or larger) than the latest tiger body? is that not evolution?
And what about the skink mentioned in my other posts? is a skink that lays eggs not an original skink and the new skink with the placenta a new skink?

What happens in the resurrection the one tiger is more evolved than the other yet they have the same spirit and intellectual capacity. Minor physical alterations due to local environment does not make it any different. The one skink has an advantage over the others in heaven, If A skink keeps eggs internally it is because God make it like that or with that capability. There is no evolving out of the sphere in which God has placed it as that is what he commanded in the plan.

To understand these things one has to understand the purpose of God and have a general understanding of the preexistence and that the physical is only very short and the resurrection sets again that which was damaged on earth due to the extraterrestrial of the earth in its current existence.
God is perfect and the plan is perfect there is no need for God to work from line to line principle upon principle - it is to say God is still evolving to something else.

If Adam is the first flesh on the earth how can he be a product of evolution it is to make God a liar.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

As the apostle Paul said each beast and fish and man has it's own flesh one does not evolve to the other and in the resurrection they are restored to spiritual perfection as created spiritually.

[Spaced_Out]

Michelle, one last time, you are ignoring all other aspects of evolution in favor of being hung up on humans. You are hung up on that and ignoring the rest because you have no answer and you can't answer any of the questions I asked. You admitted yourself that "Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain." You cannot disprove evolution because you refuse to look at evolution outside of humans.

Wow, you just totally ignore what you don't want to hear. Already been revealed and and discussed. Check out some of the other posts, not even just mine: the whole thread. Read them with the intent to comprehend what is written. Or don't ;) I'm done discussing this with you.

Matthew 13:14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"

It is like talking to flat earthers there is such a disconnect with eternal realities that they get hung up on very trivial things and dogma.

[Red]

Michelle, one last time, you are ignoring all other aspects of evolution in favor of being hung up on humans. You are hung up on that and ignoring the rest because you have no answer and you can't answer any of the questions I asked. You admitted yourself that "Man, by searching, cannot find out God. Never, unaided, will he discover the truth about the beginning of human life. The Lord must reveal Himself or remain unrevealed; and the same is true of the facts relating to the origin of Adam’s race—God alone can reveal them. Some of these facts, however, are already known, and what has been made known it is our duty to receive and retain." You cannot disprove evolution because you refuse to look at evolution outside of humans.

Wow, you just totally ignore what you don't want to hear. Already been revealed and and discussed. Check out some of the other posts, not even just mine: the whole thread. Read them with the intent to comprehend what is written. Or don't ;) I'm done discussing this with you.

Matthew 13:14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"

It is like talking to flat earthers there is such a disconnect with eternal realities that they get hung up on very trivial things and dogma.

It's like talking to closed-minded liberals.

[Spaced_Out]

It's like talking to closed-minded liberals.

Now that is coming closer to the truth, and a far better description.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.”
(Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Adam and Eve were the best possible example of human life available, they were exalted perfected personages of flesh and bones. But not blood, they had a fluid of finer celestial matter. And in this state, the bodies they produce are of that same finer matter - spirit bodies. This is how Adam and Eve became the parents of all the spirit to come to this world.

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. (Brigham Young JD 6:274)

Adam and Eve, having immortal bodies of flesh and bones, came to live on this world. And this being a fallen world, ate of the dusts/fruits of this world containing the seed of death (disobedience - a lot of all those little intelligence that pushed around all those little bits of matter didn't always obey) After a time, that celestial fluid was replaced by blood containing the seeds of death. Now the bodies they produced consisted of the dusts of this, a fallen earth, thus the bodies were mortal being full of the seeds of death. After Adam and Eve finished their work here (raised their family) they left this world and returned to their celestial home, partook of the fruits of that world purging the seeds of death(blood) to be replaced by that finer fluid. Adam and Eve did not die, they are resurrected immortal beings.

When Adam came to this world, he brought with him, the best examples of all life:

When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.”
(Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

And this being a fallen world, the animals eat of the dusts of this world and thus the seeds of death(disobedience). Just as there are people born with defects and genetic anomalies due to the seeds of death in their food, the same is true of animals and plants. And man can exploit the seeds of death to cause changes and mutations in the bodies of plants and animals. But an Adam will only use the best examples of the life with which to populate his new world.



NOTE: Yahovah Michael - this is not Yahovah, Michael it is Yahovah Michael. It is not two personages, it is one. Yahovah Michael is a tittle that recognizes this individual as a Father that was a Son, He was Yahovah/Christ. He is now a Michael/Adam.

[captainfearnot]

Big bang and organic evolution are at pretty good odds with scripture, atoms and geocentrism do not.

According to many current interpretations of scripture. But people in the past interpreted scripture differently, and people in the future will undoubtedly do the same.

[Lyster]

Has anyone posed "line upon line" creation?

How many times must this be repeated - Adam was the first flesh on the earth the plants, and animals came later... They were all created spiritually and then the spirit placed into a mortal body. If Adam was the first flesh on earth how was his body made using other life forms.

1 Corinthians 15:39
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Naaman, the Syrian, comes to Elisha to be healed of leprosy
14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

The point of my post was to say that what we see as "evolution" between species could potentially just be a learning progression. Yes, as you said, things were created spiritually before physically. I did not intend to get across anything saying that Adam (higher) was evolved from other animals (lower). The point was this: is not spirit matter? Does it not also require organization? And, in a logical progression, one begins with the lesser learning, then moves to the higher. This is the process described in Moses: create the earth, create the waters, create the life in the waters, then the more complex land animals, then finally ("once you've got it"), man, the crowning achievement. He then created them physically (last first, first last, in a manner), but they WERE created in the image of their spirit.

The idea presented is NOT to say that things evolved from lower to higher, but instead to explain the different spheres. To provide a potential answer to the "how did God do it" question, using the scriptures' explanation of the events, reconciling the observations of nature. NOT to say that evolution is the answer, which I have never stated here. (Just in case you still think I'm pushing the evolution train.)

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

"spirits are co eternal with God, they can not be created and they can not be destroyed"
Do you believe this to be true?
Can spirits(intelligence) be created, if so, who ever created it is responsible for it's behavior.
But we know that we are punished for our own sins, we are responsible for our behavior.
If that is true, then we were not created, we are what we are, we have always existed.
So, we pretty much have to believe we have always existed, there is really no other way.

"There never was a time when there was not a man on an earth working out his salvation"
Do you believe this to be true?
Was there a first God? If there was how dis he figure out how to be God, no one could tell him.
Did he just spontaneously become a God, If he did, he did not have to work out his salvation.
If the first God didn't have to do it, why do we, that's not fair.
So we pretty much have to believe there was no first God, there is really no other way.

So now we believe that we have always existed - always.
and we believe that there has always been a God - always
and that there has always been an earth with man on it - always

How in any way at all is this comparable with Big Bang.

Big Bang is nothing more that mans inability to comprehend eternity.
But I'll let you in on a secret, eternity is a piece of cake in comparison to ANY alternative.

Big Bang is a mockery of the Eternal Priesthood.