Creation/Evolution

[Gideon]

9 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?
(Jacob 4:9)

He is not a magician or a scientist, He is a God. He knows all things and has all power.

[Thinker]

I thought of this thread as I was listening to this video, “Religion vs Science.”
He explained that trying to wave away evolution theory facts is dispensing with most of biology. And yet, religion serves an important purpose too.

Is God a God of truth or lies? Truth. And when you have truth, you’re strong.
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” – Pres. J. Reuben Clark
“There is no true religion without true science, & consequently there is no true science without true religion.” - B Young

It doesn’t have to be one or the other, and actually ideally, we embrace “truth wherever its found” because truth is of God our Creator. We need both science and religion - but they serve different purposes in helping us discover truth. We wouldn’t use a screw driver to hammer a nail. Science helps us learn observable truths. Religion helps us learn moral and value truths. The bible was not written by scientific method or purpose and science cannot give us an ethical sense of what’s spiritually important.
Here’s that video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nvFd4obpP6Y

I have three natural science degrees all in different fields I see no evidence of evolution anywhere it is a total corruption to fit a man made theories.

Evidence is only defined as such with understanding to recognize it.
"Cognitive dissonance refers to a situation involving conflicting attitudes, beliefs or behaviors. This produces a feeling of discomfort leading to an alteration in one of the attitudes, beliefs or behaviors to reduce the discomfort and restore balance."
We tend to look for ONLY evidence that supports our preconceived ideas.
Few are really interested in truth - most want their biases confirmed.
The way to get out of this damning state is to genuinely worship God (higher GOoD/Truth) above all. Not easy.

God is truth and he commanded there to be no evolution it is impossible it would frustrate the entire plan of salvation.

I also believe God is truth.
But nowhere in scripture did God command, "there be no evolution."
In fact, God seems to have shown otherwise... with seasons always evolving to a new one, and that of eternal progression.

That intelligence is given a prefect spiritual body and the physical is in the likeness of the spiritual so it is also in the Resurrection. All intelligence is placed in sphere with bounds that cant be broken.

How depressing - "placed in sphere with bounds that cant be broken" sounds like damning spirit prison.
God and God's plan is all about progress! I believe this with all of my heart and soul!
We are here to have joy and an essential part of joy is progress!

"There must needs be opposition in all things" - and indeed, we learn about this world through opposites - appreciate health after sickness etc.
Yet, taken to the extreme, this is bi-polar (polarized) thinking... beliefs like, "I am either perfect or I suck!" This distorted dysfunctional mentality is why many become depressed and even suicidal. It's imperative for our health, to realize that we are works in progress... that even up to our dying day, we will still be imperfect - and that's ok - even GOOD. God saw that even with our faults, he saw that we are good. I really love the parable of the seed - and faith - and with spiritual progress. Just because a seedling is small and weak, doesn't mean it's bad - it's just not done growing.

D$C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

I love it! Thanks for sharing these.
I really do believe strongly that we were intelligences. You know Leibniz confirmed this gospel truth with his theory of monads of perception - how they are indestructable by external forces- but only pop in and out of existence by internal means - a type of consciousness.
I love how that scripture explains how God created everything to intelligently grow and develop - evolve - progress.

God is a god of Truth - not lies. And this isn't as pleasant as you might initially think. There are some truths that are so terribly horrible - I really don't want to think of them. And I do believe it's good to focus on good things - but I also believe that at times, we need to confront such ugly truths - to help ourselves and others live better. Truth does set us free - even if it's initially difficult to confront. Once confronted, you're empowered and progress.

What do you think spirit is made up of - and how do you think it's influenced?
Some would suggest meditating in a cave - as if that's the spiritual development needed.
And I do believe some solitude is essential to "be still and know that I am God" - but I also believe that spiritual development is active - and requires expressing courage, will, learning - so that we don't just love - but love WELL.

[Spaced_Out]

What do you think spirit is made up of - and how do you think it's influenced?
Some would suggest meditating in a cave - as if that's the spiritual development needed.
And I do believe some solitude is essential to "be still and know that I am God" - but I also believe that spiritual development is active - and requires expressing courage, will, learning - so that we don't just love - but love WELL.

D&C131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

God take our intelligence and gives it a pure spiritual body - in that spiritual body we progress. Jesus in the pre existence progressed to perfection and became a God without having to evolve his spirit. Likewise we progress in this life without having to evolve our bodies. If evolution was progress it would be impossible to progress - physically and mentally we degenerate as we get older so how do we progress.....Evolution is not needed.

How depressing - "placed in sphere with bounds that cant be broken" sounds like damning spirit prison.
God and God's plan is all about progress! I believe this with all of my heart and soul!
We are here to have joy and an essential part of joy is progress! This is where your disconnect is...

To think the only way we can progress is evolving physically - that is is what is depressing as it is impossible for us to evolve above that of Adam. Do you really believe that we have evolved to become more superior to Adam that unless your children evolve to become more superior than you they cant progress.

Everything to God is spiritual and babies that die at birth and never have a chance to evolve will be at a great disadvantage under your doctrine, or do you propose once we are resurrected and receive a perfect body like Heavenly father we have to continue to change our bodies in order to progress and be reincarnated over and over again to become more perfect than God....

It is very clear that you are one trying to force the failed theory of evolution onto the gospel - there is no leeway in the scriptures on this, The scriptures are very plain and the same plan of salvation has been playing our for billion and billions of earths with the same perfect God's created for those that keep the commandments and their allotment is fixed in that sphere in which they were created. The same applies to man applies to all life. A flower stays a flower in the resurrection and will be a flower for all eternity having perfect love and fulfilment according to the measure of it's creation and original intelligence, in the sphere in which God placed it, and the flowers that were made billion and billions of years ago on another earth will be the same as they were all made by perfect Gods. NO evolution involved as they were all made in perfection to begin with and are limited to the capacity of the intelligence.

Evolution is passing on a genetic characteristic to offspring - you equate evolution to spiritual progress there is a very serious disconnect in your thinking, All life as it gets older degenerates so becoming physically superior is not linked to progression - it is stupid and not in God;s plan.

[Spaced_Out]

False the scriptures teach the first 6 creative periods were spiritual creation.

Interesting point - spiritual creation precedes material/physical creation. Makes sense.

That Adam the first flesh on the earth his physical body was created in the 7th period then the garden of Eden created where Adam and Eve were placed. The animals only came after and the earth was in a terrestrial state of no death. Only since Adam was thrown out of the earth changed to a telestrial state. Animal life and man has only been in our current state for less than 6,000y, I see nothing in geology or any other science that contradicts this - note the discussion on soft tissue found on dinosaurs that are supposedly 130million years old..

Years ago, even when I took things literally in symbolic scripture stories, I questioned the math.
How could Adam and Eve have lived about 6,000 years ago, and we are supposed to be in the "last days" and yet Jesus came in the "meridian of time"?
That would mean that Jesus would have had to come much earlier than he did.

I think it would be helpful to look up "meridian of time" on lds.org.

Lots of supporting evidence that Adam lived that long, and that years were not measured in lunar months. Look at the genealogies and ages. Look at Adam-ondi-Ahman. Look at the astronomy.

How is a genealogy list or astronomy, supporting evidence? Seems you're engaging in circular reasoning which is not evidence.

How is it circular reasoning?

I looked it up years ago. I know symbolically - meridian represents the climax of a story.
But if you were to take it literally as many are mistakenly doing with scriptures - it doesn't make sense mathematically.
It's a reminder that scriptures are NOT math, science or history books - but spiritual parables to be likened to us.
Anything more than that is missing the mark.

Circular reasoning is when you begin with what you're trying to conclude with.
So ie: You want to prove scriptures are true by use of scriptures.


The 2 points to the theory of evolution are:
1. All life on earth is connected & related to each other
2. This diversity of life is a product of modifications of populations by natural selection, where some traits were favored in an environment over others.

To me, this explains spiritual evolution - eternal progress. And as above, so below.

If the environment changes back to what it was then the characteristics change back to what they were. Again how is that progression if the only way to change is to pass on a genetic trait to offspring, how does that progress the one individual in time.

All life on earth deteriorates with age and also all life deteriorates over time as regressive genes and weaknesses are introduced. Human beings now have many genetic flaws and we are weaker than our ancestors. There are species in Australia that are going extinct due to inbred genetic weaknesses, are these species and humans born with degenerative genetic weakness not able to progress as the physical body is degenerating and not evolving to something better. I tell you the very thought is madness.. to the extreme.

[Spaced_Out]

My youngest daughter quoted told me about an article she recently read. that African elephants have a genetic regressive gene that causes them to be born without tusks and due to trophy hunting where only the big tusk elephants are shot then degenerate gene is becoming more and more prevalent and causing problems. Lucky in the resurrection they will all be perfect and get their tusks.

[Spaced_Out]

If God is unable to create a body for the dust as the many scriptures tell us but has to use evolution to crate bodies.???
How is He able to resurrect in the twinkling of an eye a dead body that has been lying in the grave for many hundreds of years and is completely decomposed.................... or is that also an evolutionary process.

[Thinker]

What do you think spirit is made up of - and how do you think it's influenced?
Some would suggest meditating in a cave - as if that's the spiritual development needed.
And I do believe some solitude is essential to "be still and know that I am God" - but I also believe that spiritual development is active - and requires expressing courage, will, learning - so that we don't just love - but love WELL.

D&C131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

God take our intelligence and gives it a pure spiritual body - in that spiritual body we progress. Jesus in the pre existence progressed to perfection and became a God without having to evolve his spirit. Likewise we progress in this life without having to evolve our bodies. If evolution was progress it would be impossible to progress - physically and mentally we degenerate as we get older so how do we progress.....Evolution is not needed.

I realize this is the Sunday School answer, but have you really thought about it - what makes sense to you?
A lady I was visiting surprised me by explaining that she wouldn't get plastic surgery because she felt that the losing of everything - including youthful look - was an essential part of spiritual progress - letting go of superficial materialistic things.

(Big sigh)... I want to share with you a belief I have - but first realize that I don't put a lot of focus or concern on this belief. It's just something I have thought makes the most sense. And it seems this idea was around in the time of Christ when Jesus asked who he was and his disciples were saying, "And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets." This suggests a belief in reincarnation. I know many jump to the conclusion that reincarnation is ridiculous, assuming it's about coming back as a bug or worm. haha Energy (consciousness) doesn't zap out of existence, but changes form - but I believe in a spiritual law that involves taking on a form that one resonates - where you can progress. But again, I don't think this is something anyone needs to believe in - and in some ways, for some, it can be distracting - wondering if they're heirs of some king etc. What matters is this life we're living.

How depressing - "placed in sphere with bounds that cant be broken" sounds like damning spirit prison.
God and God's plan is all about progress! I believe this with all of my heart and soul!
We are here to have joy and an essential part of joy is progress! This is where your disconnect is...

To think the only way we can progress is evolving physically - that is is what is depressing as it is impossible for us to evolve above that of Adam. Do you really believe that we have evolved to become more superior to Adam that unless your children evolve to become more superior than you they cant progress.

Well, I have a couple answers to your question.
1) Adam represents men (and in some scriptures all humanity -including women) - Adam is not a historical person, IMHO.
2) Obviously, yes we have evolved - we live longer and generally better lives than we have in the past.

Everything to God is spiritual and babies that die at birth and never have a chance to evolve will be at a great disadvantage under your doctrine, or do you propose once we are resurrected and receive a perfect body like Heavenly father we have to continue to change our bodies in order to progress and be reincarnated over and over again to become more perfect than God....

Deep comments and questions!
I believe babies who die at birth WILL have a chance to live again - they are resurrected - sooner than later.
I really don't know how it all works, but I've considered possibilities... like maybe to become more like God (all-knowing) - we must experience more - much more than one could experience in one lifetime. But again, I don't invest too much time in this idea because this life is the time to live, have joy etc...

It is very clear that you are one trying to force the failed theory of evolution onto the gospel - there is no leeway in the scriptures on this, The scriptures are very plain and the same plan of salvation has been playing our for billion and billions of earths with the same perfect God's created for those that keep the commandments and their allotment is fixed in that sphere in which they were created. The same applies to man applies to all life. A flower stays a flower in the resurrection and will be a flower for all eternity having perfect love and fulfilment according to the measure of it's creation and original intelligence, in the sphere in which God placed it, and the flowers that were made billion and billions of years ago on another earth will be the same as they were all made by perfect Gods. NO evolution involved as they were all made in perfection to begin with and are limited to the capacity of the intelligence.

Evolution is passing on a genetic characteristic to offspring - you equate evolution to spiritual progress there is a very serious disconnect in your thinking, All life as it gets older degenerates so becoming physically superior is not linked to progression - it is stupid and not in God;s plan.

If you focus on the short tiny picture, then yes, it would seem "stupid" to think of evolution - physically or spiritually.
But if you expand your perspective - into the eternities - it makes sense.
God is "I AM THAT I AM" and "the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you" - this is the basic law of the universe, IMO.
I realize that scriptures say that God is unchanging - but I wonder if that's man's philosophy, no so much God's.
To me, God is about life and consciousness - which change and are never static - but eternally progress!

[Spaced_Out]

If you focus on the short tiny picture, then yes, it would seem "stupid" to think of evolution - physically or spiritually.
But if you expand your perspective - into the eternities - it makes sense.
God is "I AM THAT I AM" and "the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you" - this is the basic law of the universe, IMO.
I realize that scriptures say that God is unchanging - but I wonder if that's man's philosophy, no so much God's.
To me, God is about life and consciousness - which change and are never static - but eternally progress!

In order to justify evolution it is now reincarnation, God is still evolving....After countless billions of millennia -no one ever reaches pefection but continue to evolve. What happens when God the Father discovers some thing new that make the atonement null and void, that He did not know of as he is still evolving. Or are you going to evolve to be greater than God the Father. Or did our heavenly Father evolve to be greater than the father of His Spirit.
Your logic makes the entire plan of salvation null and void.

[Thinker]

I wasn’t going to go here but... You bring up the atonement as if it is something that is obvious, but have you ever really pondered it, questioned it & prayed about it? I did for a long time. And it took me a while to realize how I’d been mistaken for believing philosophies of men that were portrayed as God’s plan but were deceptive.

“Thou shalt not kill.” Basic, so would God require human sacrifice?
“God created man (warts & all) & saw that it was good.” So why would God change his mind and say it was bad?
“First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”
“The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving.”
Did Jesus preach scapegoating? No! Then why have we made him one?
At-one is to “make at one” what we screw up. It is NOT to blame it on a scapegoat.
We also need to accept what God accepted and even saw as good - our human nature as works in progress... Humbly accept it while striving to do and be better.

Jesus also warned AGAINST worshipping him but that’s been dismissed too.
For people who want even more... Jesus showed us the way and repeatedly said “come follow me” and that includes searching our souls and seeing that we each have a part in humanities sins. Yes, we have saviors in person and in spirit but they are not human sacrifice scapegoats. IMO, the opitomy of evil is not so much sinning (as God created us to do to learn), but denying our sin, shifting blame and trying to make another pay. It doesn’t matter that this idea of human sacrifice scapegoat is as common in tradition as “pass the salt & pepper.” When something is not of God, but assumed it is, it can damn us (hold us back) spiritually.

I usually don’t bring this up, partly because some aren’t ready for it. They need their false god until they’re ready to see that it’s false. It is comforting to believe someone would love me so much he’d die for me! But human sacrifice scapegoating is simply not of God. And when I think about the many people in my family who have died but have made it possible for me to live and the countless angels who have helped me - & when I see how God has blessed me with so much like a miraculously beating heart - I know I’m loved.

[BeNotDeceived]

If God is unable to create a body for the dust as the many scriptures tell us but has to use evolution to crate bodies.???
How is He able to resurrect in the twinkling of an eye a dead body that has been lying in the grave for many hundreds of years and is completely decomposed.................... or is that also an evolutionary process.

3-dimensional printer.

[Spaced_Out]

If God is unable to create a body for the dust as the many scriptures tell us but has to use evolution to crate bodies.???
How is He able to resurrect in the twinkling of an eye a dead body that has been lying in the grave for many hundreds of years and is completely decomposed.................... or is that also an evolutionary process.

3-dimensional printer.

Yes something like that - physical creation is simple thing that only happened in the 7th period of creation while God was resting. It is no big deal..