Lost 116 Pages Found

[shadow]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

I don't believe everything I read on the web. The lost 116 pages being found is one of those things I don't believe. A "Book of Joseph" is another.

[inho]

so is this the 'Dan Judd' that has these pages?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_K_Judd

I think that this is a different person. Not sure, though.

[e-eye2.0]

Are some of you mad at God or mad at man - God is the one who installed the veil. He is also the one who gives truth line upon line. I don't get upset knowing that the prophet gets to know so much - it's his calling. As for me I can get truth it's just going to take some extra work for some things.

I think Satan is the one that puts the thought in man that it's not fair. It's kind of the Laman and Lemuel thing where they complained that things were not revealed to them but they wouldn't do the work.

Joseph Smith: 'Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.' Brother Brigham arose and said, 'Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize.' Brother Joseph, addressing the Apostles, then said: 'The weight of this kingdom has been as a millstone around my neck, but I am going to roll it off on your shoulders, and then the kingdom of God will go on.'

I don't know how much of those truth's Joseph spoke about we have now but many have apostatized from the truth's we do have. Line upon line goes forwards and backwards - sometimes for our protection (because we are not ready or are ready/worthy) but usually because we just are not ready for it.

[Silver]

Nourished by the Good Word of God
Daniel K Judd

daniel-k-judd-10.jpg (4.23 KiB) Viewed 2749 times

First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency

The brother above is probably not one of the men in the picture with the caption of Dan Judd here: https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

[Alaris]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

[sandman45]

Nourished by the Good Word of God
Daniel K Judd
daniel-k-judd-10.jpg
First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency

The brother above is probably not one of the men in the picture with the caption of Dan Judd here: https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

Screen Shot 2017-08-24 at 11.27.12 AM.png (784.77 KiB) Viewed 2739 times

Yea looks like a different guy

so when i clicked the link it takes you to http://bookofmormonevidence.org/ lol

[waialeale]

Remember there is precedent in the Holy Scriptures, in the Book of Mormon regarding handling sacred things which must certainly include unpublished scripture and sacred experiences and this applies to the church and also individuals. In Alma 12: vs 9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

[inho]

Nourished by the Good Word of God
Daniel K Judd
daniel-k-judd-10.jpg
First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency

The brother above is probably not one of the men in the picture with the caption of Dan Judd here: https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

Daniel K. Judd's bio seems to indicate that he was born in the church. Some page on the above mention site tells that Dan Judd is a convert. So, they seem to be two different persons. Plus, if Dan Judd had had such a calling, I am sure that preparingapeople.com wuold use that in their advertisement. After all, they do mention that one of the speakers has served as a mission president.

[iWriteStuff]

Nourished by the Good Word of God
Daniel K Judd
daniel-k-judd-10.jpg
First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency

The brother above is probably not one of the men in the picture with the caption of Dan Judd here: https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

Screen Shot 2017-08-24 at 11.27.12 AM.png

Yea looks like a different guy

so when i clicked the link it takes you to http://bookofmormonevidence.org/ lol

Not to mention: what the heck is a "decedent"? #-o

decedent.jpg (6.75 KiB) Viewed 2723 times

[e-eye2.0]

I had never heard of the book of Joseph. Did a google search and FAIR did a write up on it and linked to the website that say that has the book - you can read it:

http://www.mormonhaven.com/joseph.htm

Some secret book that the apostles get to read? I doubt it. Are there many things God will yet reveal - that is 100% guaranteed.

[Teancum]

To speak about the concept of having more revealed and being prepared to receive such: Most importantly is attitude when dealing with God and receiving more from him. For example - If one has no gratitude and tramples under their feet the pearls that are given, then likely no more will be given. Attitude goes deeper than this though, because God has said he will not be mocked, has consistently withheld until one asks, and has stopped the flow when the people (person) could not handle any more. But has resumed the flow when the person (people) have prepared themselves and have asked for more.

I am trying to describe the importance of having the proper attitudes so that God can share and teach us. For my own life, I have sought for and prayed for those blessings spoken about in the scriptures. I understand that I am not ready for all (maybe any) of them, and that receiving such without being prepared for them could do far more damage and condemnation than if I were to remain blissfully ignorant. I am content in the timing of the Lord though, and have a hope that I shall obtain those blessings when He sees fit, if ever.

This is one area that I have had to learn the hard way when sharing with others. Yes there is a STRICT command by the Holy Ghost to only share what God permits.

So, it is somewhat instructive to look at each of the posts in this thread and observe the attitude displayed by each. Taken collectively, I think we are not ready still.

[Silver]

Nourished by the Good Word of God
Daniel K Judd
daniel-k-judd-10.jpg
First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency

The brother above is probably not one of the men in the picture with the caption of Dan Judd here: https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

Screen Shot 2017-08-24 at 11.27.12 AM.png

Yea looks like a different guy

so when i clicked the link it takes you to http://bookofmormonevidence.org/ lol

Not to mention: what the heck is a "decedent"? #-o
decedent.jpg

10 teeth.

[brlenox]

Nourished by the Good Word of God
Daniel K Judd
daniel-k-judd-10.jpg
First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency

The brother above is probably not one of the men in the picture with the caption of Dan Judd here: https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

Screen Shot 2017-08-24 at 11.27.12 AM.png

Yea looks like a different guy

so when i clicked the link it takes you to http://bookofmormonevidence.org/ lol

Not to mention: what the heck is a "decedent"? #-o
decedent.jpg

10 teeth.

It is actually worse than that...It is what you have when you can only find 10 teeth.

de·ce·dent /dəˈsēdnt/ noun Law

noun: decedent; plural noun: decedents

a person who has died.
"to make sure the decedent's property passes to his children"

[ParticleMan]

Bro. Shawn Little Bear touches upon various interesting topics. As I recall, at some point during the following fireside rather than the interview, he says that his tribe has the Book of Lehi in safekeeping. His sincerity is evident.

Fireside: https://vimeo.com/116458701
Interview: https://soundcloud.com/ranelledani/unbe ... ittle-bear

But regardless of whether he or anyone else has the missing pages and they are to come forth before the Millennium, and regardless of what is and shall be held back because of our collective unbelief, matters not: Our faith is tried with what we have been given.

[inho]

Not to mention: what the heck is a "decedent"? #-o
decedent.jpg

It is actually worse than that...It is what you have when you can only find 10 teeth.

de·ce·dent /dəˈsēdnt/ noun Law

noun: decedent; plural noun: decedents

a person who has died.
"to make sure the decedent's property passes to his children"

So, he is a dead guy. This just became a way more interesting.

[brlenox]

Not to mention: what the heck is a "decedent"? #-o
decedent.jpg

It is actually worse than that...It is what you have when you can only find 10 teeth.

de·ce·dent /dəˈsēdnt/ noun Law

noun: decedent; plural noun: decedents

a person who has died.
"to make sure the decedent's property passes to his children"

So, he is a dead guy. This just became a way more interesting.

Dan Judd - A decedent of Joseph Smith

Wouldn't this translate as Dan Judd - the man who was killed by Joseph Smith

Sounds like some new doctrine coming out of Finland ...ummm Scandinavia .

[TrueIntent]

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

I'm interested in the multiple probation thing...ive been pondering it as an idea myself. Most people are too lazy to study the teachings to understand it.....I just think all the information should always be available.....some of us want to be able to ponder and pray about the information without being questioned for asking a question. It was that same type of religious excitement Jospeh Smith experienced as a boy that confused him enough to stop listening to the preachers and take it to God. he got an answer. I agree that there is a path....I think we almost have to completely tear our beliefs down to one....that there is a god....and rebuild it without the "leaven of the Pharisees"....so that we can walk on the straigh path without falling into darkness...people interpret scripture in so many different ways, if you are not familiar with the teachings of Christ you will interpret scripture in ways that will lead you down dark paths.

On a side note....the church doesn't want to release this "higher information"....seer stones are equated with occult practices in some beliefs...polygamy is down right dirty....the early church was merely experimenting in some ways on spiritual truths like raising THe dead even ....Joseph understood more than most. Why would we hide any of this? Unless we were ashamed. Now initially....it's a shock to learn all this because it is so different than the structure of the church....we are really good with structure but horrible with faith and experimentation....because of how we will "appear." We could do better in the faith department. Faith precedes the miracles. How about we combine the faith part of the early church with the works part that exists today....and perform miracles so we can begin building. Zion.

[Alaris]

I'm interested in the multiple probation thing...ive been pondering it as an idea myself. Most people are too lazy to study the teachings to understand it.....I just think all the information should always be available.....some of us want to be able to ponder and pray about the information without being questioned for asking a question. It was that same type of religious excitement Jospeh Smith experienced as a boy that confused him enough to stop listening to the preachers and take it to God. he got an answer. I agree that there is a path....I think we almost have to completely tear our beliefs down to one....that there is a god....and rebuild it without the "leaven of the Pharisees"....so that we can walk on the straigh path without falling into darkness...people interpret scripture in so many different ways, if you are not familiar with the teachings of Christ you will interpret scripture in ways that will lead you down dark paths.

On a side note....the church doesn't want to release this "higher information"....seer stones are equated with occult practices in some beliefs...polygamy is down right dirty....the early church was merely experimenting in some ways on spiritual truths like raising THe dead even ....Joseph understood more than most. Why would we hide any of this? Unless we were ashamed. Now initially....it's a shock to learn all this because it is so different than the structure of the church....we are really good with structure but horrible with faith and experimentation....because of how we will "appear." We could do better in the faith department. Faith precedes the miracles. How about we combine the faith part of the early church with the works part that exists today....and perform miracles so we can begin building. Zion.

Thanks for the post. Take a look at my blog if you haven't already as MMP is throughout most of my articles.

I believe the LDS church waited to unveil the stone due to the proximity to the end of the time of the gentiles. Perhaps it was a sign to the Davidic Servant to Awake and Arise.

[AI2.0]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

this is disturbing.. I would like to see what is in this Book of Joseph. as for the 116 pages I dont think we will see it in our lifetime and if we do the altered one will be there to disprove it.

** now that I think of it. Didn't Joseph say many times that he could not reveal all he knew because the saints were not ready?

and Nephi, Moroni, John, and others tried to write more or reveal more but they were forbidden to? guess its not disturbing anymore to me.

So, you are just assuming that the Book of Joseph exists? I don't think it does, I think this is more Mormon Urban legend. I think people need to be careful of believing all these unsubstantiated rumors floating around.

[AI2.0]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

I see.... and for a mere $25/ticket, I too can listen to him tell all about the 116 pages that supposedly the Smith family lost nearly 200 years ago? Not to mention I can meet Chad Daybell and Hector Sosa, notorious NDE and Julie Rowe fans?

Something doesn't smell right.

No kidding. Also, they had that unfortunate typo---'decedent' means dead, they meant 'descendant'. I don't believe for a minute that Dan Judd has the 116 pages.

[AI2.0]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

i don't like how that feels...."they wish they could teach us more, but we aren't worthy of it". That's a blanket statement that can't be true for the entire membership. I hope he didn't say that. That feels like a very prideful statement. Christ still taught, he just taught in parables to those who wouldn't accept Him as the Messiah...and the ones who wouldn't accept him were the Pharisees and scribes (the ones who had access to and kept and interpreted the records). I believe it was Paul that said, he had not withheld anything. We shouldn't be withholding information from any members at this stage of the game....if it is the final hour, everyone should have access. I like Elder Holland...i hope he didn't say that. He is a good man, but that statement is misguided if true. I truly hope this is all true about the 116 pages....it would be a fascinating thing.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like something Elder Holland would say--it's not his style. However, it sounds like something Elder Packer might have said... maybe not the word 'worthy'--but 'prepared' would sound more plausible.

[AI2.0]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

Were you not aware that we had seer stones in the archives? I thought that was common knowledge. They have lots of things they've collected that would be of interest to us.

There's no question the position of the church has changed over the years to put this information out there, rather than not discussing it. It's the change of leadership, older people dying off and their beliefs dying out. 20 years ago we were regularly cautioned to not read or look at anti mormon stuff--now, I think they figured out that didn't work, there's too much of it and denying it exists didn't help. They come to realize that they should put potentially controversial things out there and give their side. The essays are perfect examples of this change in attitude. I think it's great, but I don't fault the church too much for past policies and positions. They thought what they were doing was right, and maybe it was--for that time period. Now, in this time period, changes needed to be made and they're making them.

And frankly, some members can't handle it. We do need to be careful. Some can have negative reactions and there are many different types of people on different levels of learning and understanding.

[AI2.0]

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

If you have a theory that is precious to you and you don't want to hear others question/criticize it, be wise and don't share it here. Not everyone is going to see your 'levels of mankind' theory as you perceive it and definitely, if you bring up multiple mortal probations, you should expect the majority to challenge you and remind you this is not a teaching of the LDS church.

I think one reason you are getting offended on the forum is that you share info. that you just assume everyone else will agree with you on and that's just not reasonable. A perfect example is how you said this;

Alaris: "An example of higher truth that younger/new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations'.

Making a statement like that is definitely going to start an argument. I'm not young and I'm not a new member and I've heard the theories on this and I don't believe this theory and I know it's not LDS doctrine. If you come on here and insist that it is, you are going to create that 'spirit of contention' you feel others are fomenting.

[Alaris]

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

If you have a theory that is precious to you and you don't want to hear others question/criticize it, be wise and don't share it here. Not everyone is going to see your 'levels of mankind' theory as you perceive it and definitely, if you bring up multiple mortal probations, you should expect the majority to challenge you and remind you this is not a teaching of the LDS church.

I think one reason you are getting offended on the forum is that you share info. that you just assume everyone else will agree with you on and that's just not reasonable. A perfect example is how you said this;

Alaris: "An example of higher truth that younger/new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations'.

Making a statement like that is definitely going to start an argument. I'm not young and I'm not a new member and I've heard the theories on this and I don't believe this theory and I know it's not LDS doctrine. If you come on here and insist that it is, you are going to create that 'spirit of contention' you feel others are fomenting.

You've made an incorrect presumption that I don't want to hear criticism. Please don't confuse my posts that specifically combat condescending and contentious behaviors with a disinvitation (I just made up that word) of a critical discourse. What I can't abide is trying to share pearls of truth and a troll bomb is set off that chases the spirit away from everyone--disagreements and discussion can be had without chasing off the Spirit of Truth by inviting the spirit of contention. You've judged me incorrectly here. If you don't believe me, read through my 7 levels thread and you'll see me thank several people who questioned my logic because it led me to search and discover yet more evidence that re-re-re-affirms. Truth is truth is truth - they are all friends who build each other up ...just like we should ...even when we disagree. :ymparty:

You want to disagree with me on MMP, that's great! Let's be civil as we discuss the evidences. :ymhug:

[AI2.0]

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

If you have a theory that is precious to you and you don't want to hear others question/criticize it, be wise and don't share it here. Not everyone is going to see your 'levels of mankind' theory as you perceive it and definitely, if you bring up multiple mortal probations, you should expect the majority to challenge you and remind you this is not a teaching of the LDS church.

I think one reason you are getting offended on the forum is that you share info. that you just assume everyone else will agree with you on and that's just not reasonable. A perfect example is how you said this;

Alaris: "An example of higher truth that younger/new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations'.

Making a statement like that is definitely going to start an argument. I'm not young and I'm not a new member and I've heard the theories on this and I don't believe this theory and I know it's not LDS doctrine. If you come on here and insist that it is, you are going to create that 'spirit of contention' you feel others are fomenting.

You've made an incorrect presumption that I don't want to hear criticism. Please don't confuse my posts that specifically combat condescending and contentious behaviors with a disinvitation (I just made up that word) of a critical discourse. What I can't abide is trying to share pearls of truth and a troll bomb is set off that chases the spirit away from everyone--disagreements and discussion can be had without chasing off the Spirit of Truth by inviting the spirit of contention. You've judged me incorrectly here. If you don't believe me, read through my 7 levels thread and you'll see me thank several people who questioned my logic because it led me to search and discover yet more evidence that re-re-re-affirms. Truth is truth is truth - they are all friends who build each other up ...just like we should ...even when we disagree. :ymparty:

You want to disagree with me on MMP, that's great! Let's be civil as we discuss the evidences. :ymhug:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I still lean toward believing you are probably on of those on the form who is more sensitive to criticism. You said this;

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

To me, that sounds like ''sensitive to criticism' and it's also worrisome that you see what you share as 'pearls of truth'. So where is the wriggle room when a person comes into a discussion with the conclusion that their theories are 'pearls of truth'? I just don't see how to disagree and not upset someone who is certain that they have 'truth'--If they are positive they are sharing 'truth', they aren't going to react well to those who don't share their enthusiasm. I will agree-- some will dismiss things through laziness, but you don't always know if that's the case. Maybe some have given it some thought, but don't wish to take the time to explain why.

If you want to discuss multiple mortal probations, if I chose to participate I'd try to be civil, it is not my intention to be rude to others, but I'll be the first to admit, I am direct at times.