Lost 116 Pages Found

[oklds]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

I see.... and for a mere $25/ticket, I too can listen to him tell all about the 116 pages that supposedly the Smith family lost nearly 200 years ago? Not to mention I can meet Chad Daybell and Hector Sosa, notorious NDE and Julie Rowe fans?

Something doesn't smell right.

If you're going to quote something which involves me, quote my reply as well:

You're right, and that smell is the smell of BS. I am the one who would know, and I'm telling you right now that there will NOT be any "Book of Lehi" discussion (at least by me).
[ENDQUOTE]

50% of the truth is 100% of a lie

[Egoof]

Hey, I would love to read your story on the Facebook group, I requested to join but haven't been accepted yet. Thanks for sharing and setting the record straight oklds.

[BeNotDeceived]

Large coin? Memorial? I have no idea what you're referring to. Sorry.

President Monson's GC address and geocache here.
The eagle side of the coin, is hot linked to the geocache.

It resembles a coin, but really it is the Great Seal of the United States.

Actually, I think it's the Seal of the State of Oklahoma....

AKA The Presidential Seal, it marks many Federal Properties like the Federal Building in OKC.

The official Great Seal adopted on June 20, 1782
is in the form of a written description only.

The first die of the Great Seal was created in September 1782.
It had errors, as did subsequent dies. The U.S. government's most
accurate version of the Great Seal is the Centennial Medal of 1882:

The eye-of-providence was watching over the playground, which went unscathed, as the huge building was devastated.

[oklds]

Large coin? Memorial? I have no idea what you're referring to. Sorry.

President Monson's GC address and geocache here.
The eagle side of the coin, is hot linked to the geocache.

It resembles a coin, but really it is the Great Seal of the United States.

Actually, I think it's the Seal of the State of Oklahoma....

AKA The Presidential Seal, it marks many Federal Properties like the Federal Building in OKC.

The official Great Seal adopted on June 20, 1782
is in the form of a written description only.

The first die of the Great Seal was created in September 1782.
It had errors, as did subsequent dies. The U.S. government's most
accurate version of the Great Seal is the Centennial Medal of 1882:

The eye-of-providence was watching over the playground, which went unscathed, as the huge building was devastated.

The "eye-of-providence" was NOT watching over the children themselves, who were all killed. I carried 8 of those small bodies out myself.

[oklds]

Oklds, would you mind saying what's on your Facebook page. I see it's a closed group. Do you let just anyone join?

Pretty much, i they're on my friends list. It's not like it's a big secret; I don't do the conspiracy/paranoia thing.

[Grudunza]

If it's true; I sure hope they are in the hands of a disinterested 3rd party. Like some museum in New York.

No it's something like the guy who found them, they had been in his family locked away or in a safer deposit box and he inherited them or something. He recently joined the church. I think the church is supposedly testing them for authenticity.

I may have the deatails wrong but it's something like that.

No, you pretty much nailed it.

Dan, is "pretty much nailed it" including the part about the church "testing them for authenticity?" I thought you had said earlier that you were still trying to get the documents to the Church, but I suppose that could mean in the full legal sense of owning them, which they presumably wouldn't want to do until tested and verified.

Your attitude is admirable. I agree the Church should have those documents (assuming they are relating to Church history), and not be sold to them or anyone else, or used as fodder for selling tickets to conferences. But if they are *those* 116 pages (big IF as I see it, though I've always remained optimistic that they could still exist), then I would hope there is some plan for disseminating them, and they not just end up in the Church's vaults for decades. That's where I agree with the comment above about a "disinterested 3rd party" getting them first, to at least photograph and catalogue everything. But I can't imagine the Church's powers-that-be wouldn't want that known and promoted. It would be a huge news story and probably galvanize the faithful and draw interest from others... essentially new scripture found, nearly 200 years after it was lost.

I'll remain skeptical and measured, but very interested.

[oklds]

Since I don't know who you are, I'm not going to spend a lot of time going into details. However, I agree with your statement about the "IF", and Thank You. I have been trying to get people to listen to that for years. Everyone wants these things to be real so badly that they add details into my life (and genealogy) that are spurious at best, and often out-and-out lies.

I have had so many (11) "disinterested third-parties" harass me about this that I am unwilling to go through it again. Each and every one of those people wants to photograph, copy, and transcribe the contents, ostensibly for the purpose of 'ensuring accuracy'. The actual reason , of course, is so they can sell a bazillion copies of the "Book of Lehi" or sells tickets to some bogus 'conference'. Not on my watch. These people all try to hide behind 'cutesy' fake names and I am sick and tried of it; if one's motives are Honorable, that would not be necessary. Since you're using a fake name I have no idea if you are one of those 11, or maybe even a new entrant to that field.

Bottom line is: They are the Property of the Church of Jesus Christ of letter-day Saints, and it is none of my business (nor yours or almost anyone else's) what they do with them. It is none of my business, or yours, whether the Church stores them in a vault or uses them to teach cub scouts how to start campfires. They are Church property, and 15 men have the right to make decisions as to what will happen to them. None of them have asked my opinion, and I hope they never do.

As to authenticity, there are at least two pages of illustrations (maps). An evaluation of those will prove beyond doubt whether these are the original pages (if they lead to ANY artifact AT ALL). That is currently the only part over which I have any control, and I will exercise that prerogative when I am ready to do so. BTW, I believe those were what Joseph Smith was referring to when he cried out, "All is lost"; that someone from that time would go and loot those sites. That hasn't happened, primarily because of my ancestors, and it ain't gonna happen now.

I DO NOT use fake names: Dan Judd, [email protected].

[iWriteStuff]

I DO NOT use fake names: Dan Judd, [email protected].

Thanks for the explanation, Dan. What an interesting conundrum you find yourself in. Hope you continue making the right choice on this. Above all else, avoid the community of exploiters and book promoters. I believe the warning given to Joseph Smith still applies: if you try to use the sacred scriptures entrusted to you for personal gain, you will come under condemnation. I believe this applies whether they are made of gold or common paper.

Then again if they're just the young childhood doodles of Joseph Smith when he was scribbling in his mama's hymnal, I'm sure that will be fascinating too. Either way, be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.

A few follow up questions: what brought you here and how did you find out about this forum? Why the public explanation? For a guy not seeking publicity, this seems a rather public place.

[oklds]

I DO NOT use fake names: Dan Judd, [email protected].

Thanks for the explanation, Dan. What an interesting conundrum you find yourself in. Hope you continue making the right choice on this. Above all else, avoid the community of exploiters and book promoters. I believe the warning given to Joseph Smith still applies: if you try to use the sacred scriptures entrusted to you for personal gain, you will come under condemnation. I believe this applies whether they are made of gold or common paper.

Then again if they're just the young childhood doodles of Joseph Smith when he was scribbling in his mama's hymnal, I'm sure that will be fascinating too. Either way, be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.

A few follow up questions: what brought you here and how did you find out about this forum? Why the public explanation? For a guy not seeking publicity, this seems a rather public place.

Thank you for those kind words. It means a lot when at least someone thinks I'm doing the right thing. Not that it would change anything: I consider this a sacred trust and will do my duty regardless of what anyone else thinks. A lot of people told a lot of lies about me when I refused to give them these papers. I figured my anonymity was shot already, so best to bring it all out in the open and set things straight. I believe in being as straightforward as possible; secrecy never appealed to me nearly as much as a plain old-fashioned fight. I am a combat Soldier: "Be wary as a dove and keep a round in the chamber..."

Those papers are not in my hands anyway - they are being delivered to their rightful owners. Besides, if they were meaningless drivel, I wouldn't be getting hammered. satan's a treacherous, evil, lying, cowardly s--tbag, and somewhat deluded, but not stupid. Why would he waste ammo on a worthless target?

[iWriteStuff]

Thank you for those kind words. It means a lot when at least someone thinks I'm doing the right thing. Not that it would change anything: I consider this a sacred trust and will do my duty regardless of what anyone else thinks. A lot of people told a lot of lies about me when I refused to give them these papers. I figured my anonymity was shot already, so best to bring it all out in the open and set things straight. I believe in being as straightforward as possible; secrecy never appealed to me nearly as much as a plain old-fashioned fight. I am a combat Soldier: "Be wary as a dove and keep a round in the chamber..."

Those papers are not in my hands anyway - they are being delivered to their rightful owners. Besides, if they were meaningless drivel, I wouldn't be getting hammered. satan's a treacherous, evil, lying, cowardly s--tbag, and somewhat deluded, but not stupid. Why would he waste ammo on a worthless target?

I suppose the easy answer is that any child of God is a valuable target to Satan - and some more especially than others (Joseph Smith himself being an excellent example - see pre-First Vision experience).

If the papers truly are on their way, I hope as much as anyone else that we get to learn about them sometime in the near future.

Keep that round in the chamber - the battle is far from over

[Grudunza]

Thanks, Dan. It’s a fascinating story you find yourself within, and I think you’re handling it well, though for all I know you’re banging your head against the wall most days.

I’ll disagree with you slightly about one statement, though, that everybody who has an interest in having the documents er, documented, wants to sell books or conference tickets. Perhaps the people who have contacted you have (well, for sure, in some cases), but I think most people here and in general just have a thirst for truth and knowledge, and IF (yup, big IF) the 116 pages are part of that, then that is new scripture (well, not “new,” but new to the world).

And it’s fine if you think the Q15 are best to make the decision of what to do with those. I agree the Church should own those documents. But there is also a history of information being repressed and hidden (seer stone, first vision accounts, etc.), in a way that many don’t feel was justified, leading to disaffection and a lot of current issues with people questioning and leaving the church. We could discuss whether those things were justified or not (I’d rather not), but regardless, there are reasons people would want such a thing offered to a 3rd party first, before the Church, that have nothing to do with money or fame or prestige. Again, truth and knowledge, shared to the world.

Anyway, if they’re in the Church’s hands now, that’s fine. I trust they’ll make them public at some point if there’s anything authentic there.

Best,
Eric Endres
(nothing to hide, but ya know, people on the internet just use handles, and Grudunza is mine)

[oklds]

Thanks, Dan. It’s a fascinating story you find yourself within, and I think you’re handling it well, though for all I know you’re banging your head against the wall most days.

I’ll disagree with you slightly about one statement, though, that everybody who has an interest in having the documents er, documented, wants to sell books or conference tickets. Perhaps the people who have contacted you have (well, for sure, in some cases), but I think most people here and in general just have a thirst for truth and knowledge, and IF (yup, big IF) the 116 pages are part of that, then that is new scripture (well, not “new,” but new to the world).

And it’s fine if you think the Q15 are best to make the decision of what to do with those. I agree the Church should own those documents. But there is also a history of information being repressed and hidden (seer stone, first vision accounts, etc.), in a way that many don’t feel was justified, leading to disaffection and a lot of current issues with people questioning and leaving the church. We could discuss whether those things were justified or not (I’d rather not), but regardless, there are reasons people would want such a thing offered to a 3rd party first, before the Church, that have nothing to do with money or fame or prestige. Again, truth and knowledge, shared to the world.

Anyway, if they’re in the Church’s hands now, that’s fine. I trust they’ll make them public at some point if there’s anything authentic there.

Best,
Eric Endres
(nothing to hide, but ya know, people on the internet just use handles, and Grudunza is mine)

Thanks again. My Wife says I've got a hard head, so that should help out some. It's also quite a pain dealing with this every day instead of making a real living. My Wife calls ma a 'Mormon junk magnet', and I've gotta admit she's got a point, but that doesn't pay as well as engineering.

I think the current Quorum has been opening up a lot more in the last few years. Besides, I either trust my Prophet or I do not. If not, I could have sold them at a garage sale. But I do, so I let Him make that decision. It's too far above my pay-grade to worry about anyway. Bottom line for that is: If those maps lead nowhere, then those written pages are probably not the real thing. However, I think they do, since my G-Grand-Father broke his back and almost lost his life (one of his friends died there) following one of those maps. If there is something there, then:

It will prove beyond doubt the validity of the written pages
The Church will come out with the contents of the written materials
The written pages will be nothing more than a footnote in history, since someone will be able to re-translate them from the ORIGINAL originals

[Grudunza]

I know what you’re implying with the maps thing, but could they have just been maps to the local horse supply shop? I suppose that if I’m already skeptical about the 116 pages, then I’m about ten times more skeptical about anyone having maps for a treasure cave. The 116 pages we know existed; the other thing, ehhh, that’s getting into some more speculative history as far as what Oliver (I think it was Oliver) described at one point, and whether that was real or in a vision.

I just personally wouldn’t equate the one thing with necessarily verifying the other... the 116 pages could be *those* 116 pages, and the maps could be something entirely different. Or did they say “Map to Treasure Cave” on them?? (Being somewhat facetious there, though not entirely.) And also wondering how those maps ended up in the same hands as those who got the 116 pages. Surely that’s not something Joseph would have included for Martin to show Lucy.

Anyway, I do appreciate your candor, with whatever you’re able to share. Did you really not even look at the contents of the box, though? You say there were 116 pages in one of the bundles, but how do you even know that? As you should be wary of people using what you have for any kind of gain, so should we be wary of your story. You know what I mean? I find you credible and engaging, but you might be trying to get attention or whatever. Then again, you came here after people were summoming you, essentially. So again, that speaks to your credibility, as does refusing to be part of that conference. But still, some things don’t seem to add up (acknowledging of course that we don’t have all of the information). It’s the kind of story we’ve heard before in Mormonism, with things discovered and scriptures found, from various fakes and wannabes (e.g., Christopher Nemelka). So I hope you don’t take offense if I and others have some skepticism and questions.

[oklds]

I know what you’re implying with the maps thing, but could they have just been maps to the local horse supply shop? I suppose that if I’m already skeptical about the 116 pages, then I’m about ten times more skeptical about anyone having maps for a treasure cave. The 116 pages we know existed; the other thing, ehhh, that’s getting into some more speculative history as far as what Oliver (I think it was Oliver) described at one point, and whether that was real or in a vision.

I just personally wouldn’t equate the one thing with necessarily verifying the other... the 116 pages could be *those* 116 pages, and the maps could be something entirely different. Or did they say “Map to Treasure Cave” on them?? (Being somewhat facetious there, though not entirely.) And also wondering how those maps ended up in the same hands as those who got the 116 pages. Surely that’s not something Joseph would have included for Martin to show Lucy.

Anyway, I do appreciate your candor, with whatever you’re able to share. Did you really not even look at the contents of the box, though? You say there were 116 pages in one of the bundles, but how do you even know that? As you should be wary of people using what you have for any kind of gain, so should we be wary of your story. You know what I mean? I find you credible and engaging, but you might be trying to get attention or whatever. Then again, you came here after people were summoming you, essentially. So again, that speaks to your credibility, as does refusing to be part of that conference. But still, some things don’t seem to add up (acknowledging of course that we don’t have all of the information). It’s the kind of story we’ve heard before in Mormonism, with things discovered and scriptures found, from various fakes and wannabes (e.g., Christopher Nemelka). So I hope you don’t take offense if I and others have some skepticism and questions.

I also have my doubts. My first email about this, in September 2013 (before we were even members of the Church) to my then friend-now Bishop, I told him I quite frankly believed these were probably some sort of plans for a new horse collar or two-story outhouse or whatever. The idea that something like those pages would fall into my hands, was, frankly, ludicrous.

As to the inventory, the bank counted them when they inventoried the contents prior to moving them in 1999. Those contents were (are?):

Two bundles of very old manuscripts:
36 pages in one
116 pages in another
43 United States Bank Promissory notes for deposited gold (My Father sent me one in 1995, which I had no use for and kept in my desk until 2014)
One large knife
Two rocks encased in lucite
One 1830 Book of Mormon

(BTW, none of this is new information. I posted this over 3 years ago, and haven't changed it since. I have emails and GPS-locked posts to prove that. Only recently has anyone been particularly interested, and only one of those has been interested enough to help track them down.)

The knife and rocks are, of course, nothing to do with the Church. Two pages of the 116 package and possibly one of the 36 are illustrations (maps) with no current geographical references (nothing like, "12 miles east of Denver on I-70, etc."). One of them matches a current georef, however, almost exactly. That's the one my G-Grand-Father Thomas went looking for. I do not know what's there, but Thomas' friend died exploring it, and Thomas went back one time, and broke his back, and never went back after that. I have been there, but do not plan on ever going inside.

I do halfway disagree with the statement that one thing does not prove the other. The written docs don't prove anything by themselves, but if there are artifacts at the map locations, that more-or-less proves the docs. Sometime after that inventory, a Church bigshot told me that there had been rumors for over 170 years that those 116 pages contained maps. Remember: Those were NOT a history of the people, but Doctrinal items (remember the 'gold plates/brass plates deal?). That's the only reason I can think of why they'd have illustrated pages.

I did see the bundle of papers when I went out to CA in June, and read the first sentence of the first page. I think they are the real thing, but I am an (unemployed) engineer, NOT and archaeologist nor a document expert. I don't give a RA if anyone believes me or not. I never take offense. If someone offends me, I just cut them off. I'm not selling anything, nor am I going to do so. PERIOD. One caveat to that: two very wise women authors offered to help to put this in book form and sell it. What I know about writing books is almost as much as I know about the surface of the planet Pluto. If they want to do so they can.

Be that as it may, I have spent way too many hours on this already. I am going to post a chronological history of my involvement in this in the "MORMON BOX" group on my facebook page, and that'll be the last I have to say about it. Someone may be paying you to read this stuff, but no one's paying my bills but me. I posted some rules when I still had control of the papers, which everyone seemed to just ignore, but they still apply:

1. Do not ask to join this group if you are not on my friend's list. Likewise if you are a member of some nut group (like LDSAVOW). I've had enough advice from the 'foil-hat' crowd to last a lifetime.

2. Do not tell me what you think those pages contain or what I should do with them. I don't know and neither do you. There are only 15 men who can make that decision. I am not one, and neither are you.

3. Do not ask me to let you view, read or copy these pages or maps. That ain't gonna happen.

[oklds]

I know what you’re implying with the maps thing, but could they have just been maps to the local horse supply shop? I suppose that if I’m already skeptical about the 116 pages, then I’m about ten times more skeptical about anyone having maps for a treasure cave. The 116 pages we know existed; the other thing, ehhh, that’s getting into some more speculative history as far as what Oliver (I think it was Oliver) described at one point, and whether that was real or in a vision.

I just personally wouldn’t equate the one thing with necessarily verifying the other... the 116 pages could be *those* 116 pages, and the maps could be something entirely different. Or did they say “Map to Treasure Cave” on them?? (Being somewhat facetious there, though not entirely.) And also wondering how those maps ended up in the same hands as those who got the 116 pages. Surely that’s not something Joseph would have included for Martin to show Lucy.

Anyway, I do appreciate your candor, with whatever you’re able to share. Did you really not even look at the contents of the box, though? You say there were 116 pages in one of the bundles, but how do you even know that? As you should be wary of people using what you have for any kind of gain, so should we be wary of your story. You know what I mean? I find you credible and engaging, but you might be trying to get attention or whatever. Then again, you came here after people were summoming you, essentially. So again, that speaks to your credibility, as does refusing to be part of that conference. But still, some things don’t seem to add up (acknowledging of course that we don’t have all of the information). It’s the kind of story we’ve heard before in Mormonism, with things discovered and scriptures found, from various fakes and wannabes (e.g., Christopher Nemelka). So I hope you don’t take offense if I and others have some skepticism and questions.

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

[Grudunza]

Cool. I'll just sit back, try to forget about any of this, and if more information comes out, then great.

Must have been a fun thing to see that inventory describe "116 pages." They could be 116 pages of 1827 upstate NY recipes. But that number certainly draws attention.

And yes, presumably the other plates could have included visuals or maps that the eventual BoM didn't. That makes sense. But the pages alone should be able to help verify what they are, based on the content, comparison to Martin Harris' handwriting, and so forth.

[Grudunza]

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

[oklds]

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Saw that. Not the same thing at all. I was actually hoping the first line on page one would be the same, but no dice.

[oklds]

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Are you telling me he did this just to prove he could lie better than anyone else?

[HappyCamper8]

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Saw that. Not the same thing at all. I was actually hoping the first line on page one would be the same, but no dice.

Is it too much to ask what the first line you read actually was?

[oklds]

Cool. I'll just sit back, try to forget about any of this, and if more information comes out, then great.

Must have been a fun thing to see that inventory describe "116 pages." They could be 116 pages of 1827 upstate NY recipes. But that number certainly draws attention.

And yes, presumably the other plates could have included visuals or maps that the eventual BoM didn't. That makes sense. But the pages alone should be able to help verify what they are, based on the content, comparison to Martin Harris' handwriting, and so forth.

If you get a chance and want to, send me an email. I'd like to maintain contact if we cna.

Dan
[email protected]

[oklds]

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Saw that. Not the same thing at all. I was actually hoping the first line on page one would be the same, but no dice.

Is it too much to ask what the first line you read actually was?

yes

[oklds]

Cool. I'll just sit back, try to forget about any of this, and if more information comes out, then great.

Must have been a fun thing to see that inventory describe "116 pages." They could be 116 pages of 1827 upstate NY recipes. But that number certainly draws attention.

And yes, presumably the other plates could have included visuals or maps that the eventual BoM didn't. That makes sense. But the pages alone should be able to help verify what they are, based on the content, comparison to Martin Harris' handwriting, and so forth.

"Fun thing" was not the descriptive I'd use. It almost stopped my clock on the spot. LOL

I have a theory on that that everyone I've shared it with agrees with, including the Church bigshots involved, but I won't post it any more. That handwriting was TINY. I mean very tiny. Very neat and legible, but maybe 1.6mm in height.

[HappyCamper8]

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Saw that. Not the same thing at all. I was actually hoping the first line on page one would be the same, but no dice.

Is it too much to ask what the first line you read actually was?

yes

Sorry, didn't mean to pry. Thanks

[Grudunza]

BTW, who is "Christopher Nemelka"? Another version of this Hoffmann trash?

He created his version of the 116 pages, as well as the Sealed Portion, specifically as an exercise in deceit, to show that it could be done.
http://thesealedportion.com/tsp/index.htm

Are you telling me he did this just to prove he could lie better than anyone else?

Initially, yes. Or, ostensibly to show that someone like him could create something comparable to the BoM. An interesting concept and experiment, at that level. I haven’t read enough of it to see if it’s at all plausible sounding, but certainly in terms of length and general style, it’s in the ballpark. But Nemelka also played it up at a certain point, got some followers, and started scamming and being extremely sketchy in various ways. Apparently at first, he was up front about doing it as an experiment, but not later.

Anyway, he’s not the only one. There have been a few other Mormon-related fan fiction authors over the years. But Nemelka is the most recent and most prolific.