Lost 116 Pages Found

[brlenox]

If this originates truly from Bruce Porter, then you can take it to the bank as fact. However, I cannot verify that he is the source and so that certainly mitigates credibility. Still Bruce is an excellent educator of strong spiritual capacity.

Would someone please tell me who Bruce Porter is? Is that the Apostle that died back in December? I thought it was, but people are saying they're gonna email him now. How could any of these people contact him now? Must be another Bruce Porter. Can anyone explain? Right now I'm getting data from people who think I should already know all this stuff. Sorta like the blind leading the stupid...

This is a video that he is narrating for what he looks like:

http://josephsmithfoundation.org/ziontu ... of-mormon/

This is a personal site:

https://www.bhporter.net/

But, that guy's dead, right; his obit say's he died in December. He was one of the people the Church sent to check them out last summer when they were still in the bank and he told the history department they were the real thing, but that the bank wouldn't let them have them. The Church history guy sent the key and receipt back to me in September and said I'd have to be the one to go get them. Another great example of everyone assuming that I know something just because I'm a member. Please try and remember:

I'M IGNORANT! NOT STUPID! IGNORANT! I DON'T KNOW HALF THE STUFF YOU LIFERS LEARN IN PRIMARY!

If I'd known this at the time, I could have seen the urgency in the situation and gone out there with this guy, and the bank would have handed them over. The last post he made was about those papers, and I suspect he'd have liked to get hold of them himself. As it was, they came within a couple days of being sent off to this 'Unclaimed Property Division' black-hole.

On top of that, a pack of duplicitous swine wanted to get their own hands on them, and waited until this guy was dead to swarm me and my house trying to do so (that timing was NO coincidence!). Next time somebody asks me about this, I'm gonna wanna see two forms of identification AND their Temple Recommend. NOT JOKING! And to think that these are the same dirtbags who criticized me and called me filthy names about this. These people make me sick!

It looks like Kittycat51 has provided what I would have sent to your question. No need for me to repeat.

[oklds]

Would someone please tell me who Bruce Porter is? Is that the Apostle that died back in December? I thought it was, but people are saying they're gonna email him now. How could any of these people contact him now? Must be another Bruce Porter. Can anyone explain? Right now I'm getting data from people who think I should already know all this stuff. Sorta like the blind leading the stupid...

This is a video that he is narrating for what he looks like:

http://josephsmithfoundation.org/ziontu ... of-mormon/

This is a personal site:

https://www.bhporter.net/

But, that guy's dead, right; his obit say's he died in December. He was one of the people the Church sent to check them out last summer when they were still in the bank and he told the history department they were the real thing, but that the bank wouldn't let them have them. The Church history guy sent the key and receipt back to me in September and said I'd have to be the one to go get them. Another great example of everyone assuming that I know something just because I'm a member. Please try and remember:

I'M IGNORANT! NOT STUPID! IGNORANT! I DON'T KNOW HALF THE STUFF YOU LIFERS LEARN IN PRIMARY!

If I'd known this at the time, I could have seen the urgency in the situation and gone out there with this guy, and the bank would have handed them over. The last post he made was about those papers, and I suspect he'd have liked to get hold of them himself. As it was, they came within a couple days of being sent off to this 'Unclaimed Property Division' black-hole.

On top of that, a pack of duplicitous swine wanted to get their own hands on them, and waited until this guy was dead to swarm me and my house trying to do so (that timing was NO coincidence!). Next time somebody asks me about this, I'm gonna wanna see two forms of identification AND their Temple Recommend. NOT JOKING! And to think that these are the same dirtbags who criticized me and called me filthy names about this. These people make me sick!

This is the Bruce Porter that died in December. (wears glasses) He was a former General Authority. He did have a history degree so he may have been the one the Church sent out earlier in the year?

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-b ... 4?lang=eng


The Bruce Porter that does all of the Book of Mormon stuff is a different person and is a bit larger structure of a man. (doesn't wear glasses). I can see how it can all be confusing!

<stringofreallybadprofanewordsandstereotypicalinsults>! Now, I'm really confused - not that I wasn't pretty far gone before. I doubt it's the big guy, though, since I doubt the Church would have sent him out to CA to check that box, right? They'd have sent some bigshot; that's why I firgured it was the Seventies guy. I will try to contact the other one just in case, since I know one of them's been taking a lot of (totally undeserved) crap over this, and I can at least set the record straight with him. Does anyone have contact with that guy? You can give him my name and email: Dan Judd, [email protected]. There's nothing secret about me.

[EmmaLee]

Does anyone have contact with that guy?

You can send him a message through his Facebook account here - https://www.facebook.com/bruce.porter.3762

[inho]

<stringofreallybadprofanewordsandstereotypicalinsults>! Now, I'm really confused - not that I wasn't pretty far gone before. I doubt it's the big guy, though, since I doubt the Church would have sent him out to CA to check that box, right? They'd have sent some bigshot; that's why I firgured it was the Seventies guy. I will try to contact the other one just in case, since I know one of them's been taking a lot of (totally undeserved) crap over this, and I can at least set the record straight with him. Does anyone have contact with that guy? You can give him my name and email: Dan Judd, [email protected]. There's nothing secret about me.

I don't know what kind of crap Bruce Porter has been talking, but based on his blog post that I quoted earlier in this thread (see below) he seems to have pretty fair view on things. You can probably contact him through his web site, there is a contact form.

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Bruce Porter has refuted this. This is a snippet from his blog post:

I am not the original or primary source of any of the information surrounding the supposed finding of the 116 pages, but like all rumors, I have been told that this information is true. I have heard things by some who personally know people that are supposedly involved (so it already third hand) and to answer questions about this topic, I always preface myself that 'I am only relating what I have heard' which means nothing. I want to emphasize again that any and all the information I have related in response to the questions ask me is: that the information is from another source rather than myself, and until an official announcement is made by the Church, everything is just hearsay.

[oklds]

<stringofreallybadprofanewordsandstereotypicalinsults>! Now, I'm really confused - not that I wasn't pretty far gone before. I doubt it's the big guy, though, since I doubt the Church would have sent him out to CA to check that box, right? They'd have sent some bigshot; that's why I firgured it was the Seventies guy. I will try to contact the other one just in case, since I know one of them's been taking a lot of (totally undeserved) crap over this, and I can at least set the record straight with him. Does anyone have contact with that guy? You can give him my name and email: Dan Judd, [email protected]. There's nothing secret about me.

I don't know what kind of crap Bruce Porter has been talking, but based on his blog post that I quoted earlier in this thread (see below) he seems to have pretty fair view on things. You can probably contact him through his web site, there is a contact form.

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Bruce Porter has refuted this. This is a snippet from his blog post:

I am not the original or primary source of any of the information surrounding the supposed finding of the 116 pages, but like all rumors, I have been told that this information is true. I have heard things by some who personally know people that are supposedly involved (so it already third hand) and to answer questions about this topic, I always preface myself that 'I am only relating what I have heard' which means nothing. I want to emphasize again that any and all the information I have related in response to the questions ask me is: that the information is from another source rather than myself, and until an official announcement is made by the Church, everything is just hearsay.

I did not write "talking crap" I wrote "taking crap". If you are going to quote me, please read the article first, then quote me accurately.

[oklds]

Would someone please tell me who Bruce Porter is? Is that the Apostle that died back in December? I thought it was, but people are saying they're gonna email him now. How could any of these people contact him now? Must be another Bruce Porter. Can anyone explain? Right now I'm getting data from people who think I should already know all this stuff. Sorta like the blind leading the stupid...

This is a video that he is narrating for what he looks like:

http://josephsmithfoundation.org/ziontu ... of-mormon/

This is a personal site:

https://www.bhporter.net/

But, that guy's dead, right; his obit say's he died in December. He was one of the people the Church sent to check them out last summer when they were still in the bank and he told the history department they were the real thing, but that the bank wouldn't let them have them. The Church history guy sent the key and receipt back to me in September and said I'd have to be the one to go get them. Another great example of everyone assuming that I know something just because I'm a member. Please try and remember:

I'M IGNORANT! NOT STUPID! IGNORANT! I DON'T KNOW HALF THE STUFF YOU LIFERS LEARN IN PRIMARY!

If I'd known this at the time, I could have seen the urgency in the situation and gone out there with this guy, and the bank would have handed them over. The last post he made was about those papers, and I suspect he'd have liked to get hold of them himself. As it was, they came within a couple days of being sent off to this 'Unclaimed Property Division' black-hole.

On top of that, a pack of duplicitous swine wanted to get their own hands on them, and waited until this guy was dead to swarm me and my house trying to do so (that timing was NO coincidence!). Next time somebody asks me about this, I'm gonna wanna see two forms of identification AND their Temple Recommend. NOT JOKING! And to think that these are the same dirtbags who criticized me and called me filthy names about this. These people make me sick!

This is the Bruce Porter that died in December. (wears glasses) He was a former General Authority. He did have a history degree so he may have been the one the Church sent out earlier in the year?

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-b ... 4?lang=eng


The Bruce Porter that does all of the Book of Mormon stuff is a different person and is a bit larger structure of a man. (doesn't wear glasses). I can see how it can all be confusing!

Especially since I've never seen either of them, and had never even heard the name until last week.

[oklds]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Brother Porter is connected with the church history department and is given regular assignments to investigate church history related events and material. He is credible.

Has anyone heard anything of this finding and can verify if its true or false?

Is that the same Bruce Porter who died in December, 2016?

[bradfordjames8]

throughout all the conjecture and back and forth on this thread I don't think anybody has asked "so what?"

Let's think about this for a second. The Lord knew was going to happen with those pages. And he prepared a contingency for them. Those pages are not necessarily what the Lord found necessary for us to have. If there are necessary for us to have we would have them. The fact that they disappeared is his business.

I don't understand everyone's fascination with this subject. The pages were lost. The lord gave us what we needed and wants us to focus on what we have rather than conjecturing about what we don't have.

[inho]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Brother Porter is connected with the church history department and is given regular assignments to investigate church history related events and material. He is credible.

Has anyone heard anything of this finding and can verify if its true or false?

Is that the same Bruce Porter who died in December, 2016?

No, kittycat51 answered that in October:

This is the Bruce Porter that died in December. (wears glasses) He was a former General Authority. He did have a history degree so he may have been the one the Church sent out earlier in the year?

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-b ... 4?lang=eng


The Bruce Porter that does all of the Book of Mormon stuff is a different person and is a bit larger structure of a man. (doesn't wear glasses). I can see how it can all be confusing!

[AI2.0]

But, that guy's dead, right; his obit say's he died in December. He was one of the people the Church sent to check them out last summer when they were still in the bank and he told the history department they were the real thing, but that the bank wouldn't let them have them. The Church history guy sent the key and receipt back to me in September and said I'd have to be the one to go get them. Another great example of everyone assuming that I know something just because I'm a member. Please try and remember:There are two Bruce Porters-- one is Bruce D. Porter and the other is Bruce H. Porter. The one who was a general authority and so, could have represented the LDS chruch, that Bruce D. Porter, died a year ago so he couldn't have met with you this last summer. Are you sure you weren't meeting with Bruce H. Porter? Since you were contacted by the 'preparing a people' group, I"m thinking it was Bruce H. Porter, who wrote a book with Rod Meldrum on the Heartland theory of Book of Mormon lands and would be more likely associated with others of the Preparing a people crowd. He's not a general authority and would not be representing the church. And, if he told you your papers are 'the real thing', I'd be skeptical, if I were you. He and Rod Meldrum have been very easy to accept antiquities which are known forgeries in the past.

You can see and compare them on these links:

https://deseretbook.com/p/prophecies-pr ... -paperback

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_D._Porter

I'M IGNORANT! NOT STUPID! IGNORANT! I DON'T KNOW HALF THE STUFF YOU LIFERS LEARN IN PRIMARY!

If I'd known this at the time, I could have seen the urgency in the situation and gone out there with this guy, and the bank would have handed them over. The last post he made was about those papers, and I suspect he'd have liked to get hold of them himself. As it was, they came within a couple days of being sent off to this 'Unclaimed Property Division' black-hole.

Who is the 'he' who made a post about wanting to get ahold of the papers? Do you have the papers in your possession now?
On top of that, a pack of duplicitous swine wanted to get their own hands on them, and waited until this guy was dead to swarm me and my house trying to do so (that timing was NO coincidence!). Next time somebody asks me about this, I'm gonna wanna see two forms of identification AND their Temple Recommend. NOT JOKING! And to think that these are the same dirtbags who criticized me and called me filthy names about this. These people make me sick!

Seriously, are you SURE you were meeting with LDS church representatives? The contact you've had doesn't sound like the way the church would have handled this.

I've been trying to piece together your story and since your facebook page is closed to people you don't know, I've had to try and figure it out from other sources.
From what I can gather, you joined the church and somehow a friend in your ward, Shawn Littlebear, found out about this box of papers you had, which was passed down in your family. Somehow you've gotten the impression that these papers might include the lost 116 pages, which were purportedly destroyed by Lucy Harris. For this reason, I doubt your papers are the lost manuscript--but exactly what they are, I have no idea. If you take them to a University to have them archived, you can find out what they are.
From what I gather, you are NOT a descendant of Joseph Smith (one of the 'lies' you said the preparingapeople group claimedabout you?), but you may be Native American. You've not explained how your family came to have these papers, since they were last in the possession of Lucy Harris of Palmyra, New York (and you are in Oklahoma) and you have not shared any information of what is in these papers.

My best guess is that you have not been dealing with the LDS church, but with a group that Shawn Littlebear got you in contact with---people who are associates of Rod Meldrum, Hector Sosa, and others who put together conventions and speaking engagements (these people often promote books, websites and different money making businesses at their conventions). They wanted to put you on their program and use the suggestion that your papers might be the 116 pages, to sell tickets.

Does this sound about right? If not, could you please clarify.

Also, if you met with actual LDS church representatives, I'd be surprised and I think that's why you've had a bad experience. These people are not representatives of the LDS church, they represent their own interests.

[Grudunza]

I think Dan is savvy enough to know the difference between official church, uh, officials, and anyone else. Why would you be surprised about the church being involved, though? Why wouldn’t they want to be? That was the case with all of the Hoffman documents. It’s possible you’re right, but I’m sure Dan will answer to that.

Also, only one person reported Lucy Harris having burned them, and another person reported her giving those pages to a doctor friend. So there shouldn’t be an absolute assumption that they were destroyed. I think Lucy was smart enough to know there could be some value in saving them... but also angry enough with Martin to have burned them. The point is, we really don’t know.

Has there been any update from your contacts about this, Dan?

[oklds]

But, that guy's dead, right; his obit say's he died in December. He was one of the people the Church sent to check them out last summer when they were still in the bank and he told the history department they were the real thing, but that the bank wouldn't let them have them. The Church history guy sent the key and receipt back to me in September and said I'd have to be the one to go get them. Another great example of everyone assuming that I know something just because I'm a member. Please try and remember:There are two Bruce Porters-- one is Bruce D. Porter and the other is Bruce H. Porter. The one who was a general authority and so, could have represented the LDS chruch, that Bruce D. Porter, died a year ago so he couldn't have met with you this last summer. Are you sure you weren't meeting with Bruce H. Porter? Since you were contacted by the 'preparing a people' group, I"m thinking it was Bruce H. Porter, who wrote a book with Rod Meldrum on the Heartland theory of Book of Mormon lands and would be more likely associated with others of the Preparing a people crowd. He's not a general authority and would not be representing the church. And, if he told you your papers are 'the real thing', I'd be skeptical, if I were you. He and Rod Meldrum have been very easy to accept antiquities which are known forgeries in the past.

I have never met either of them. I was told that one of them was a General Authority, which I thought was an Apostle, and had been the one to go and check them out while they were still at the bank, before they found out my Dad had died, and made arrangements to send the to the California UPD. I more-or-less trust the person who gave me that data. However, she didn't bother to explain about the other Bruce Porter, and I didn't know this one had died until a few weeks ago. People kept asking if he had seen them, I kept saying yes, I thought he had, and this poor guy (Bruce H. Porter) had to keep telling people he didn't know a thing about it.

Another case of folks assuming I know these things because YOU ALL know them. Sorry, but there was no indoctrination course offered in my Ward. Be that as it may, I do know that the people I delivered the key and reciept to, and signed the POA for, were employees of the (LDS) Church, as I met him in the Church conference center back in the summer of 2015. The person from the RLDS (I didn't know at the time there was a difference) is the one who came up with this crazy stuff about my ancestry.

Who is the 'he' who made a post about wanting to get ahold of the papers? Do you have the papers in your possession now?

A person named Meldrum wanted to get me to go out there and make a set of copies this past June. I didn't see a problem with just giving him a copy. However, a man named Andrew Ehat informed me that there actually was no copyright on these, since they were too old. So, anyone having the text could legally publish "The Book of Lehi" and list themselves as the author. I did not give him or anyone else a copy, although I do not know what this Bruce D. Porter did. He may have made a copy, but that is okay.

Just to be on the safe side, I got a trademark attorney to advise me, and copyrighted the contents in August of this year.

Seriously, are you SURE you were meeting with LDS church representatives? The contact you've had doesn't sound like the way the church would have handled this.

No, that was a couple named Michael and Nancy James. They got me to go to a couple of gatherings (they called them 'firesides') and speak about what I knew about this stuff. Since that was very limited, they then tried to bill me as a direct descendant of Joseph Smith and booked the conference center at UVU and started selling tickets. When I found out, I told them to stop advertising me that way. When they would not ("We can sell a lot more tickets if you say you are.") I refused to have anything more to do with them. They've since tried to get to me through my Daughter and Wife, but they are also both aware of the type of people the James's are.

I've been trying to piece together your story and since your facebook page is closed to people you don't know, I've had to try and figure it out from other sources.
From what I can gather, you joined the church and somehow a friend in your ward, Shawn Littlebear, found out about this box of papers you had, which was passed down in your family. Somehow you've gotten the impression that these papers might include the lost 116 pages, which were purportedly destroyed by Lucy Harris. For this reason, I doubt your papers are the lost manuscript--but exactly what they are, I have no idea. If you take them to a University to have them archived, you can find out what they are.

We will know in May or June of next year, one way or the other.

From what I gather, you are NOT a descendant of Joseph Smith (one of the 'lies' you said the preparingapeople group claimedabout you?),
but you may be Native American.

I have no idea if I am or not, not do I particularly care. If anyone had taken the time to read the original article about this, written and published in 2014, they would have known that this was all Family-story stuff. As to DNA testing, I have been told by Michael Kennedy that his pet geneticist, one Ugo Perrigo, can trace a DNA sample back through 25 generations. This is complete crap! It is simply not possible.

On top of all that, I am probably the only Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints who does NOT want to be a descendant of Joseph Smith.

You've not explained how your family came to have these papers, since they were last in the possession of Lucy Harris of Palmyra, New York (and you are in Oklahoma) and you have not shared any information of what is in these papers.
[/quote]

I did explain how my Family got them. That story kept getting twisted by people (much like the above paragraph) so I quit telling it. Shawn Littlebear had nothing whatsoever to do with recovering these papers; likewise, he had nothing to do with the pack of lies these other people told abouot me (as far as I know).

My best guess is that you have not been dealing with the LDS church, but with a group that Shawn Littlebear got you in contact with---people who are associates of Rod Meldrum, Hector Sosa, and others who put together conventions and speaking engagements (these people often promote books, websites and different money making businesses at their conventions). They wanted to put you on their program and use the suggestion that your papers might be the 116 pages, to sell tickets.

Does this sound about right? If not, could you please clarify.
[/quote]

About right, but I would phrase the reality differently, and with a lot more profanity

Also, if you met with actual LDS church representatives, I'd be surprised and I think that's why you've had a bad experience. These people are not representatives of the LDS church, they represent their own interests.
[/quote]

No kidding! But, not to put too fine a point on it, I don't know you, either.

[oklds]

I think Dan is savvy enough to know the difference between official church, uh, officials, and anyone else. Why would you be surprised about the church being involved, though? Why wouldn’t they want to be? That was the case with all of the Hoffman documents. It’s possible you’re right, but I’m sure Dan will answer to that.

Also, only one person reported Lucy Harris having burned them, and another person reported her giving those pages to a doctor friend. So there shouldn’t be an absolute assumption that they were destroyed. I think Lucy was smart enough to know there could be some value in saving them... but also angry enough with Martin to have burned them. The point is, we really don’t know.

Has there been any update from your contacts about this, Dan?

I have an opinion on why the 116 were 'lost', but it is ONLY my opinion: Almighty God did not have His Prophet Joseph Smith spend months transcribing these plates just to have some bad-tempered old biddy in the throes of PMS toss them in the fire because she was mad at her Husband. I think He had them taken so that those sites would not be looted the minute the book came out. Think about this: If King Tut's tomb were discovered in, say, 1707 instead of 1907, where would all that gold be today? I think maybe Almighty God did not want those illustrations released until such time as the contents could be protected. Again, ONLY my opinion.

I had never even heard of this Hoffman trash until a few months ago. I will say this: When I found out in September 2014, two months BEFORE we got Baptized, that these were almost certainly the original 116 sheets, my Wife and I concluded that:

1. These were not my property to sell, and never would be. They are not for sale. Period. We're not stupid, we know what they are potentially worth. However, I consider myself to be in possession of stolen property which I have been endeavoring to return to it's rightful owner(s).
2. When that is accomplished, there are only 15 men qualified to take the decision as to what to do with them. I am not one of them, and neither are you.
3. Are we 'odd' to think the way we do? Yes, most definitely. And we will continue to be so. We will not be the ones who have to stand in front of Almighty God and explain how we spent the money.

No, I have not checked on the current status of 'the project'. Every time I do, it gets more twisted. These folks who have examined them are convinced they are the real thing, and that they were unaltered. I agree, and here's why:

1. These were taken from the gold plates. The Book of Mormon specifically states that they are spiritual matters. IOW, doctrine only. They're not some sort of Lehi's Travelogue.
2. Based on what I saw of the writing, these will come out to a LOT more than 228 printed pages. Most of the script is VERY tiny, maybe 2mm tall, and all 114 written sheets (228 pages) are about 8" X 16.5", written both sides. In my opinion, with all the annotations and footnotes the current Book of Mormon contains, it'll end up being at least 2,000 printed pages, possibly as many as 2,600. I could be wrong, but I'm not.
3. I can prove chain-of-custody from 1829 through 1832, and from 1842 to the present. From 1834 through 1842 my information is unsubstantiated, but there's no reason to doubt these are the same packages.

I will know in May or June of next year if they are the real thing or not, and then:
1. Will prove empirically that the Book of Mormon is accurate, and geographically centered in the North American mid-west.
2. Will prove that those are the original, unaltered 116 sheets, since if they had actually gotten into 'unfriendly' hands, the sites would have been looted long ago.
3. Will prove that there is a LOT more to this story than anyone (including Joseph Smith) has ever seen.
4. Will prove that I have way too much time on my hands and need to get a job.

If you ever want to contact me, I won't list my phone number here, but I also do NOT hide behind fake names and emails. It's [email protected]

[BruceRGilbert]

If you ever want to contact me, I won't list my phone number here, but I also do NOT hide behind fake names and emails. It's [email protected]

Nor do I hide behind fake names, Dan. I extend to you my respect. I have a question for you with regard to what type of engineering background you have? Are you currently employed? Semper Fi. Regards, Bruce Gilbert - and I can be found on Facebook, as well.

[oklds]

If you ever want to contact me, I won't list my phone number here, but I also do NOT hide behind fake names and emails. It's [email protected]

Nor do I hide behind fake names, Dan. I extend to you my respect. I have a question for you with regard to what type of engineering background you have? Are you currently employed? Semper Fi. Regards, Bruce Gilbert - and I can be found on Facebook, as well.

First of all: Semper Fi right back atcha, Marine!

I am a PCB/Circuit designer. Been doing this (for pay) since I was 13 years old, that was 1971. Which would make me...let's see...39 years old, right? I think you worked with my Dad out at HP in Sunnyvale for a short time, right? Do the names Orville Pankratz, Russ Harper, or David Carli ring any bells?

Currently unemployed. I worked for Methode for 7 years until one day (94 days after we got Baptized) the rest of the department came back from lunch and found me reading the Book of Mormon. One of the individuals in my 'chain-of-command' just happened to be the president of the oklahoma atheist society, named Aaron McColl. He asked me, "So, are you gonna be one of them Mormon nuts?" I replied that I already was, and was unemployed the next day.

No, it was not only because I had joined the Church. I had issues with that company's ethical practices long before that, and needed to leave anyway. I think this was Almighty God's way of finding out if I was gonna be a 'stand-up' guy or not. And yes, since Oklahoma is a right-to-work State, a person can be fired for any reason. I don't regret it; I did my duty. Matthew 10:33 applies perfectly. And, yes, it still pisses me off.

[AI2.0]

I think Dan is savvy enough to know the difference between official church, uh, officials, and anyone else. Why would you be surprised about the church being involved, though? Why wouldn’t they want to be? That was the case with all of the Hoffman documents. It’s possible you’re right, but I’m sure Dan will answer to that.I'm not saying he's not, but it's a bit hard to follow his explanation of events. I'm still not sure if he ever met with actual representatives of the church, as far as I can tell, he's never given any names of actual church representatives--simply said he met with someone in the Conference center in 2015. And, Hofmann was different--HE made all the overtures to the church, he sought them out. The first presidency often put him in touch with a representative in documents or a general authority. Michael and Nancy James are NOT representatives of the church and neither is Rod Meldrum; these people represent their own interests.

Also, only one person reported Lucy Harris having burned them, and another person reported her giving those pages to a doctor friend. So there shouldn’t be an absolute assumption that they were destroyed. I think Lucy was smart enough to know there could be some value in saving them... but also angry enough with Martin to have burned them. The point is, we really don’t know.
There is a chance they survived, but Dan's description (what he's shared) does not sound like the 116 pages--He's describing too much content and maps? Maps to what? Why would Lehi have put maps in the 116 pages. We do have some idea of the content of his writings--Mormon abridged part of it in his record. We don't know if they are 116 pages written on foolscap and if there are two or three different scribes' handwriting samples(two facts we know about them), we've got only that he says 'someone' said they were authentic. WHO said they were authentic? And what's authentic? The fact that they are old pages? That doesn't make them the lost 116 pages. Honestly I'm skeptical.

Has there been any update from your contacts about this, Dan?

He says they are being tested and we'll know in about six months. But once again, WHO is testing them??? Who has he given them to to run tests on them? The details are too vague for my taste.

[BruceRGilbert]

First of all: Semper Fi right back atcha, Marine!

I am a PCB/Circuit designer. Been doing this (for pay) since I was 13 years old, that was 1971. Which would make me...let's see...39 years old, right? I think you worked with my Dad out at HP in Sunnyvale for a short time, right? Do the names Orville Pankratz, Russ Harper, or David Carli ring any bells?

Currently unemployed. I worked for Methode for 7 years until one day (94 days after we got Baptized) the rest of the department came back from lunch and found me reading the Book of Mormon. One of the individuals in my 'chain-of-command' just happened to be the president of the oklahoma atheist society, named Aaron McColl. He asked me, "So, are you gonna be one of them Mormon nuts?" I replied that I already was, and was unemployed the next day.

No, it was not only because I had joined the Church. I had issues with that company's ethical practices long before that, and needed to leave anyway. I think this was Almighty God's way of finding out if I was gonna be a 'stand-up' guy or not. And yes, since Oklahoma is a right-to-work State, a person can be fired for any reason. I don't regret it; I did my duty. Matthew 10:33 applies perfectly. And, yes, it still pisses me off.

Thank you, Dan . . . for responding to a complete stranger. In my H.P. career, I didn't make it to Sunnyvale - I was at the Boise and Corvallis sites. If your father worked for H.P. during the time of Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard - he was a very fortunate man. It was an amazing company back in the day. Corpocracy and greed have laid waste to the American Dream and single "income" families. I look forward to the establishment of Zion.

I am grateful for your ethics, Dan. I admire your fortitude and determination. Idaho, too, is a right-to- work State.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

The law of reciprocation will apply in this instance and you shall be rewarded many times over what you have sacrificed. It isn't easy . . . and I understand fully well your feelings of . . . lets just call it "indignation."

I am proud of you and honored to make your acquaintance. Lets keep in touch now that we've connected on F.B. Thank you.

(P.S. It doesn't matter if the papers are authentic or not - I'm glad to have a new friend. God bless.)

[AI2.0]

I think Dan is savvy enough to know the difference between official church, uh, officials, and anyone else. Why would you be surprised about the church being involved, though? Why wouldn’t they want to be? That was the case with all of the Hoffman documents. It’s possible you’re right, but I’m sure Dan will answer to that.

Also, only one person reported Lucy Harris having burned them, and another person reported her giving those pages to a doctor friend. So there shouldn’t be an absolute assumption that they were destroyed. I think Lucy was smart enough to know there could be some value in saving them... but also angry enough with Martin to have burned them. The point is, we really don’t know.

Has there been any update from your contacts about this, Dan?

I have an opinion on why the 116 were 'lost', but it is ONLY my opinion: Almighty God did not have His Prophet Joseph Smith spend months transcribing these plates just to have some bad-tempered old biddy in the throes of PMS toss them in the fire because she was mad at her Husband. I think He had them taken so that those sites would not be looted the minute the book came out. Think about this: If King Tut's tomb were discovered in, say, 1707 instead of 1907, where would all that gold be today? I think maybe Almighty God did not want those illustrations released until such time as the contents could be protected. Again, ONLY my opinion.

I had never even heard of this Hoffman trash until a few months ago. I will say this: When I found out in September 2014, two months BEFORE we got Baptized, that these were almost certainly the original 116 sheets, my Wife and I concluded that:

1. These were not my property to sell, and never would be. They are not for sale. Period. We're not stupid, we know what they are potentially worth. However, I consider myself to be in possession of stolen property which I have been endeavoring to return to it's rightful owner(s).
2. When that is accomplished, there are only 15 men qualified to take the decision as to what to do with them. I am not one of them, and neither are you.
3. Are we 'odd' to think the way we do? Yes, most definitely. And we will continue to be so. We will not be the ones who have to stand in front of Almighty God and explain how we spent the money.

No, I have not checked on the current status of 'the project'. Every time I do, it gets more twisted. These folks who have examined them are convinced they are the real thing, and that they were unaltered. I agree, and here's why:

1. These were taken from the gold plates. The Book of Mormon specifically states that they are spiritual matters. IOW, doctrine only. They're not some sort of Lehi's Travelogue.There will be some of Lehi's journeys in the text.
2. Based on what I saw of the writing, these will come out to a LOT more than 228 printed pages. Most of the script is VERY tiny, maybe 2mm tall, and all 114 written sheets (228 pages) are about 8" X 16.5", written both sides. In my opinion, with all the annotations and footnotes the current Book of Mormon contains, it'll end up being at least 2,000 printed pages, possibly as many as 2,600. I could be wrong, but I'm not.The 116 pages were transcribed by Martin Harris, Emma Smith and possibly her brother Reuben. I don't know if any of them wrote in very tiny script, but I expect that since the bulk of the writings should be in Martin Harris' handwriting, if there are examples of his writing (which I don't remember now if there are, I'd have to research it), it would be not too difficult to determine if it's his handwriting. We do have Emma's writing so they should be able to find examples of her handwriting in it, if it is authentic. Facts we know--the paper is 'foolscap' and it was 116 pages. It was written in 1828. They can test the ink, paper and how long the ink has been on the paper. This could prove they are authentic, in that they are old, but then, there's the content--they may not be the Book of Lehi and yet, still be old and valuable.
3. I can prove chain-of-custody from 1829 through 1832, and from 1842 to the present. From 1834 through 1842 my information is unsubstantiated, but there's no reason to doubt these are the same packages.The last person who had them in their possession was Martin Harris and his wife. They were in a desk in their house. The rest of what happened to them is rumor.

I will know in May or June of next year if they are the real thing or not, and then:
1. Will prove empirically that the Book of Mormon is accurate, and geographically centered in the North American mid-west.Why would you think this? I have no idea why you'd think the lost 116 pages would prove the Heartland theory--Don't expect this to be proven from the book, Lehi didn't know where he was, just that he was in the Promised land.
2. Will prove that those are the original, unaltered 116 sheets, since if they had actually gotten into 'unfriendly' hands, the sites would have been looted long ago.'Sites'? What 'sites' do you think the Book of Lehi would be talking about? Is this the reference to maps? I don't expect there to be any maps in the 116 pages.
3. Will prove that there is a LOT more to this story than anyone (including Joseph Smith) has ever seen.Why? This sounds like conspiracy theory stuff, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.
4. Will prove that I have way too much time on my hands and need to get a job.

If you ever want to contact me, I won't list my phone number here, but I also do NOT hide behind fake names and emails. It's [email protected]

[AI2.0]

Also--OKlds, people are making this way too hard! You don't need DNA testing to prove your ancestry, you just need to get to work on your genealogy, specifically, your four generation chart. Talk to the Family History consultants in your ward or stake and tell them you'd like to get started on your genealogy. You just need to give them names, birthdates, places for you and your parents, grandparents, whatever you know. They can help you. It's not hard and I'd expect that your ward members would be happy to help you do this.
It doesn't matter if you are related to Joseph Smith or not, what matters is that you start working on identifying your ancestors and getting their temple work done.

[Tbone]

2. Will prove that those are the original, unaltered 116 sheets, since if they had actually gotten into 'unfriendly' hands, the sites would have been looted long ago.

I hope we find out the story of the custodians and what their true motivations were. If Lucy Harris was involved in some sort of conspiracy, I would expect her to cover it up by saying she burned the papers, but it sounds as if somehow the conspirators lost interest and the papers passed to less threatening people. I hope we find out why.

But what would be the likelihood that the caves and sites weren't already explored by now? I'd imagine that any artifacts would have already been discovered and then mis-categorized by "experts" who would force them to fit the already accepted narratives of the learned ones.

[Love]

The facts of this feed are confusing and vague. Don't spend time trying to figure this out.

[Egoof]

I've had a great interest in this story. I really would be excited to read the pages once they've been authenticated. I'm assuming the church would publish them of course. Who could complain about getting MORE scripture?!?! That being said. I also am confused. From everything I've read from you Dan, my understanding is that the pages and some other artifacts are in a safe deposit box in California somewhere. It sounds like you are working on getting the pages to the LDS church but lack the funds to fly out and deliver them to the church yourself? If this is truly the case and that is all that is holding up the process, can we help? I don't have a lot but if I could contribute to the process of restoring the 116 pages I would be more than willing.

If I am misunderstanding the situation I apologize. I appreciate your candor Dan and would love to hear how if in ANY way I could help bring new scripture to light.

[oklds]

Final word on this matter:

Those papers, whatever they are, were secured to their rightful owners.

[oklds]

I've had a great interest in this story. I really would be excited to read the pages once they've been authenticated. I'm assuming the church would publish them of course. Who could complain about getting MORE scripture?!?! That being said. I also am confused. From everything I've read from you Dan, my understanding is that the pages and some other artifacts are in a safe deposit box in California somewhere. It sounds like you are working on getting the pages to the LDS church but lack the funds to fly out and deliver them to the church yourself? If this is truly the case and that is all that is holding up the process, can we help? I don't have a lot but if I could contribute to the process of restoring the 116 pages I would be more than willing.

If I am misunderstanding the situation I apologize. I appreciate your candor Dan and would love to hear how if in ANY way I could help bring new scripture to light.

NO! No one is going to finance any part of this except me. My part in the matter is complete, anyway. Anything further will be decided by 15 people who are way past my paygrade. If they want my advice, or yours, I am sure they'll be in touch.

[oklds]

Also--OKlds, people are making this way too hard! You don't need DNA testing to prove your ancestry, you just need to get to work on your genealogy, specifically, your four generation chart. Talk to the Family History consultants in your ward or stake and tell them you'd like to get started on your genealogy. You just need to give them names, birthdates, places for you and your parents, grandparents, whatever you know. They can help you. It's not hard and I'd expect that your ward members would be happy to help you do this.
It doesn't matter if you are related to Joseph Smith or not, what matters is that you start working on identifying your ancestors and getting their temple work done.

I have that done, back four generations. All their Temple work is done.