Lost 116 Pages Found

[AI2.0]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

i don't like how that feels...."they wish they could teach us more, but we aren't worthy of it". That's a blanket statement that can't be true for the entire membership. I hope he didn't say that. That feels like a very prideful statement. Christ still taught, he just taught in parables to those who wouldn't accept Him as the Messiah...and the ones who wouldn't accept him were the Pharisees and scribes (the ones who had access to and kept and interpreted the records). I believe it was Paul that said, he had not withheld anything. We shouldn't be withholding information from any members at this stage of the game....if it is the final hour, everyone should have access. I like Elder Holland...i hope he didn't say that. He is a good man, but that statement is misguided if true. I truly hope this is all true about the 116 pages....it would be a fascinating thing.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like something Elder Holland would say--it's not his style. However, it sounds like something Elder Packer might have said... maybe not the word 'worthy'--but 'prepared' would sound more plausible.

[AI2.0]

I've met Bruce through family connected with my uncle Leonard Arrington. He is a great teacher and presenter. He told me that the Church actually in fact has a "book of Joseph" that Joseph Smith translated that only general authorities and other trusted individuals are permitted to read. About the lost 116 pages, I have always believed and even received a witness of the Holy Ghost that they existed back east somewhere and would be found someday but I doubt that even if the Church had access to them they would not publish them or even make any announcements because of all the contradictions and PR messes that would ensue. Elder Holland did say once to the effect that "we wish we could teach the members more, but they are not worthy of it."

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

Were you not aware that we had seer stones in the archives? I thought that was common knowledge. They have lots of things they've collected that would be of interest to us.

There's no question the position of the church has changed over the years to put this information out there, rather than not discussing it. It's the change of leadership, older people dying off and their beliefs dying out. 20 years ago we were regularly cautioned to not read or look at anti mormon stuff--now, I think they figured out that didn't work, there's too much of it and denying it exists didn't help. They come to realize that they should put potentially controversial things out there and give their side. The essays are perfect examples of this change in attitude. I think it's great, but I don't fault the church too much for past policies and positions. They thought what they were doing was right, and maybe it was--for that time period. Now, in this time period, changes needed to be made and they're making them.

And frankly, some members can't handle it. We do need to be careful. Some can have negative reactions and there are many different types of people on different levels of learning and understanding.

[AI2.0]

I have always been uneasy with what I call the two church system. The higher church reserved for the GA's and the left overs for the rest of us. This post doesnt help.

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

If you have a theory that is precious to you and you don't want to hear others question/criticize it, be wise and don't share it here. Not everyone is going to see your 'levels of mankind' theory as you perceive it and definitely, if you bring up multiple mortal probations, you should expect the majority to challenge you and remind you this is not a teaching of the LDS church.

I think one reason you are getting offended on the forum is that you share info. that you just assume everyone else will agree with you on and that's just not reasonable. A perfect example is how you said this;

Alaris: "An example of higher truth that younger/new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations'.

Making a statement like that is definitely going to start an argument. I'm not young and I'm not a new member and I've heard the theories on this and I don't believe this theory and I know it's not LDS doctrine. If you come on here and insist that it is, you are going to create that 'spirit of contention' you feel others are fomenting.

[Alaris]

Well, you could do what I do and don't believe it, then you won't be encouraged to think that Church leaders are sharing stuff amongst themselves that the rest of us don't know about, which undermines members' trust in them. To me, this stuff fits in to the Mormon 'Urban Legend' category'.

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

If you have a theory that is precious to you and you don't want to hear others question/criticize it, be wise and don't share it here. Not everyone is going to see your 'levels of mankind' theory as you perceive it and definitely, if you bring up multiple mortal probations, you should expect the majority to challenge you and remind you this is not a teaching of the LDS church.

I think one reason you are getting offended on the forum is that you share info. that you just assume everyone else will agree with you on and that's just not reasonable. A perfect example is how you said this;

Alaris: "An example of higher truth that younger/new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations'.

Making a statement like that is definitely going to start an argument. I'm not young and I'm not a new member and I've heard the theories on this and I don't believe this theory and I know it's not LDS doctrine. If you come on here and insist that it is, you are going to create that 'spirit of contention' you feel others are fomenting.

You've made an incorrect presumption that I don't want to hear criticism. Please don't confuse my posts that specifically combat condescending and contentious behaviors with a disinvitation (I just made up that word) of a critical discourse. What I can't abide is trying to share pearls of truth and a troll bomb is set off that chases the spirit away from everyone--disagreements and discussion can be had without chasing off the Spirit of Truth by inviting the spirit of contention. You've judged me incorrectly here. If you don't believe me, read through my 7 levels thread and you'll see me thank several people who questioned my logic because it led me to search and discover yet more evidence that re-re-re-affirms. Truth is truth is truth - they are all friends who build each other up ...just like we should ...even when we disagree. :ymparty:

You want to disagree with me on MMP, that's great! Let's be civil as we discuss the evidences. :ymhug:

[AI2.0]

Heres the problem..it does happen.....I was told by a bishop and stake president that the leadership "has to release information slowly" because the members can't handle it (as of just this year). Referring to the Essays.....this bishop and stake president (who I like, but feel like they were also misguided) told me that the church is a big boat with a little rutter, and they can only move as fast(with revealing things), as the membership, as a whole, are willing to accept. I was told that the church was a vehicle and some members are at the front of the boat, some are at the back, but to stay in the boat. Im okay with that analogy, minus the withholding of information. We should never withhold information or records...positive or negative. I was actually very bothered that we had a seer stone in our archives for all this time, and never published that information until recently. The internet has been out long enough to have all this stuff published. That is actually why the members are freaking out to a degree. We should have had access to some of this information all along. I don't know what is in the archives...but there is a mentality that exist (hopefully not among all the leadership) that members should not have all the information. I hope that we do not espouse this belief throughout the higher ranks. The scriptures teach against this.

If you want to see this principle in action look no further than LDSFF. How nice would it be to find place online for open discussion of higher truths without those who aren't ready for such bombing these discussions with the spirit of contention? Have a look at this quote from Joseph Smith:

In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

We should be able to disagree with a spirit of brotherhood and love whereas so many dismiss and condescend. But we can't even do that here where most of us are LDS doing this to other LDS ... I am sometimes guilty of this too though my intentions are to work towards elevating the conversation.

So there's one aspect. Here is another:

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

An example of higher truth that younger / new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations. Joseph Smith taught that there is one path to Godhood. If you must be a Son to be a Father, and if we can become Fathers then that's at least two MMPs. The thing is, whether you agree with MMP or not, most of those who disagree with it or struggle with it say something to the effect of, "You mean I gotta do this again." So for the sake of argument let's say MMP is one of those truths the brethren hold close like a hand of cards. Of course they wouldn't discuss that openly. Can you imagine missionaries adding that to the first discussion? "Come be baptized so you can be born again literally as a member of Israel in the next creation." Uh...what? NO thanks.

Finally, we are nearing the end of the time of the gentiles - I believe we are at the very doors. I believe the brethren know this all too well. Up until now the church's main work has been to gather as many as will come into the house of Israel. Once that time is over, the work will shift to Israel itself and Israel's gathering. This is why Isaiah is all throughout 2nd Nephi and why the Lord Himself spent so much time on Isaiah scripture when He appeared to the Nephites. Wouldn't there be / Shouldn't there be some accompanying sighs of relief from the brethren as they unveil some higher truths? The seer stone was a foreshadowing of this in my mind because so many members have struggled with the seer stone because of the way the world looks upon such. There is a scripture that basically says that the things of the Lord are silly to the world. Well we're still trying to save the world ... for at least a few more weeks. Then it's time to save Israel.

If you have a theory that is precious to you and you don't want to hear others question/criticize it, be wise and don't share it here. Not everyone is going to see your 'levels of mankind' theory as you perceive it and definitely, if you bring up multiple mortal probations, you should expect the majority to challenge you and remind you this is not a teaching of the LDS church.

I think one reason you are getting offended on the forum is that you share info. that you just assume everyone else will agree with you on and that's just not reasonable. A perfect example is how you said this;

Alaris: "An example of higher truth that younger/new members struggle with is the idea of multiple mortal probations'.

Making a statement like that is definitely going to start an argument. I'm not young and I'm not a new member and I've heard the theories on this and I don't believe this theory and I know it's not LDS doctrine. If you come on here and insist that it is, you are going to create that 'spirit of contention' you feel others are fomenting.

You've made an incorrect presumption that I don't want to hear criticism. Please don't confuse my posts that specifically combat condescending and contentious behaviors with a disinvitation (I just made up that word) of a critical discourse. What I can't abide is trying to share pearls of truth and a troll bomb is set off that chases the spirit away from everyone--disagreements and discussion can be had without chasing off the Spirit of Truth by inviting the spirit of contention. You've judged me incorrectly here. If you don't believe me, read through my 7 levels thread and you'll see me thank several people who questioned my logic because it led me to search and discover yet more evidence that re-re-re-affirms. Truth is truth is truth - they are all friends who build each other up ...just like we should ...even when we disagree. :ymparty:

You want to disagree with me on MMP, that's great! Let's be civil as we discuss the evidences. :ymhug:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I still lean toward believing you are probably on of those on the form who is more sensitive to criticism. You said this;

"Without even a thought" - When I discovered the evidences to support the levels of mankind I was so excited to declare it on the housetops. After posting my initial findings I got several dismissals "without even a thought." Even if I was dead wrong the lazy dismissals were extremely disrespectful given the time and effort I had put it. This is not how we should be treating each other.

To me, that sounds like ''sensitive to criticism' and it's also worrisome that you see what you share as 'pearls of truth'. So where is the wriggle room when a person comes into a discussion with the conclusion that their theories are 'pearls of truth'? I just don't see how to disagree and not upset someone who is certain that they have 'truth'--If they are positive they are sharing 'truth', they aren't going to react well to those who don't share their enthusiasm. I will agree-- some will dismiss things through laziness, but you don't always know if that's the case. Maybe some have given it some thought, but don't wish to take the time to explain why.

If you want to discuss multiple mortal probations, if I chose to participate I'd try to be civil, it is not my intention to be rude to others, but I'll be the first to admit, I am direct at times.

[LdsMarco]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Brother Porter is connected with the church history department and is given regular assignments to investigate church history related events and material. He is credible.

Has anyone heard anything of this finding and can verify if its true or false?

Well.. I got emails and other sources that this is true but I can't go any further than that.

[brianj]

Were you not aware that we had seer stones in the archives? I thought that was common knowledge. They have lots of things they've collected that would be of interest to us.

There's no question the position of the church has changed over the years to put this information out there, rather than not discussing it. It's the change of leadership, older people dying off and their beliefs dying out. 20 years ago we were regularly cautioned to not read or look at anti mormon stuff--now, I think they figured out that didn't work, there's too much of it and denying it exists didn't help. They come to realize that they should put potentially controversial things out there and give their side. The essays are perfect examples of this change in attitude. I think it's great, but I don't fault the church too much for past policies and positions. They thought what they were doing was right, and maybe it was--for that time period. Now, in this time period, changes needed to be made and they're making them.

And frankly, some members can't handle it. We do need to be careful. Some can have negative reactions and there are many different types of people on different levels of learning and understanding.

I had no idea the stones were in the church archives, or that Joseph Smith had any stones beside the ones from the Urim and Thummim. I anticipated that such stones would be crystal stones, clear as glass, based on Ether 3:1. I had some difficulty with the pictures when they were first released because they didn't look like this. It took some time for me to start seeing the simplistic beauty of the stones.

[CMajor]

Dan Judd joined the church in 2013. He claims the 116 pages have been handed down from father to son since they were stollen from Mrs. Harris and her group of conspirators. His blood line does not come from Joseph Smith. He feels the church is the rightful owner and is having them certified, documented, ink, paper, handwriting style of Emma Smith and Martin Harris.

Also the 'seer' stone that was given to our church from the RLDS church, I think we were ripped off. Martin Harris described the stone as being the size of an egg and Chocolate Brown. No white stripes on it. In fact Martin found an identical stone and one day switched it out with the one that Joseph used. Joseph said that the translation words would appear in a 'raised light lettering' on the stone. When he looked at the stone that Martin had placed into his top hat, Joseph made the comment, "It's as dark as Egypt!, Martin, what have you done!" Where upon Martin reached into his coat pocket and gave Joseph his, 'seer stone'. Little prankster, that Martin. Joseph used the 'seer' stone to translate most of the Book of Mormon. Except for the boring parts. There are 3 sources of first person diary's to back this claim up. Personally, I believe it was faster than having to use the Urim and Thummum because you didn't need to put on the leather vest that held the clear triangular stones. Every time you had to stop translating you had to carefully put away the U&T, roll up the leather apron. Using the stone you could just slip it into your pocket. Done.

[larsenb]

Were you not aware that we had seer stones in the archives? I thought that was common knowledge. They have lots of things they've collected that would be of interest to us.

There's no question the position of the church has changed over the years to put this information out there, rather than not discussing it. It's the change of leadership, older people dying off and their beliefs dying out. 20 years ago we were regularly cautioned to not read or look at anti mormon stuff--now, I think they figured out that didn't work, there's too much of it and denying it exists didn't help. They come to realize that they should put potentially controversial things out there and give their side. The essays are perfect examples of this change in attitude. I think it's great, but I don't fault the church too much for past policies and positions. They thought what they were doing was right, and maybe it was--for that time period. Now, in this time period, changes needed to be made and they're making them.

And frankly, some members can't handle it. We do need to be careful. Some can have negative reactions and there are many different types of people on different levels of learning and understanding.

I had no idea the stones were in the church archives, or that Joseph Smith had any stones beside the ones from the Urim and Thummim. I anticipated that such stones would be crystal stones, clear as glass, based on Ether 3:1. I had some difficulty with the pictures when they were first released because they didn't look like this. It took some time for me to start seeing the simplistic beauty of the stones.

The seer stones exhibit a banding/ring pattern that looks very much like what is called liesegang banding. Can be very beautiful.

[Alaris]

If the 116 pages have indeed been found, and will be announced to the general public, and the text shown, the LDS wouldn't use it, for fear of not being able to determine what was altered, and what was original. However, the Snuffer gang would grab at it and have their prophet use his "mighty gifts" to figure out the real wording, and then they'd canonize it as part of their scriptures, and say it was a sign from God that God had forsaken the LDS church and blessed the Snuffer gang, and they'd point to the inability of the LDS leadership to determine the real text, and their reliance upon the scholars to make that determination. (And then they'd stumble even more.)

So, although I ain't gonna hold my breath, I really do hope they come forth. It would be grand to see the above play out.

Regarding the seer stone, if that really is the stone Joseph Smith used, I suspect that that stone will not be the one that Gazelem uses to discover the wickedness of the people:

And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations. (Alma 37:23)

I have no doubt that the Josephite will be able to make Joseph Smith's stone work, and he'll probably go and get it from the church leadership, anyway, if only to show them that he can make it work and they can't, but I think he'll just get it to give it back to Joseph, 'cause it was intended to be Joseph's. So, I think the Lord will prepare a different stone for Gazelem, a stone tailored to his own preferences, of a color he likes.

I studied seer stones in depth when the church unveiled one of Josephs. I recall a story that Joseph used a girl's stone to find his first, though hers wouldn't work as well for him because it was tailored to her. BY also said something to the effect of we all having a stone though I suspect this must be at least your second probation or perhaps third to have your own stone. This is a super lazy post but my wife accidentally drugged me with melatonin to which I am super sensitive. If anyone asks I'll see if I can find those three references.

[davedan]

Were you not aware that we had seer stones in the archives? I thought that was common knowledge. They have lots of things they've collected that would be of interest to us.

There's no question the position of the church has changed over the years to put this information out there, rather than not discussing it. It's the change of leadership, older people dying off and their beliefs dying out. 20 years ago we were regularly cautioned to not read or look at anti mormon stuff--now, I think they figured out that didn't work, there's too much of it and denying it exists didn't help. They come to realize that they should put potentially controversial things out there and give their side. The essays are perfect examples of this change in attitude. I think it's great, but I don't fault the church too much for past policies and positions. They thought what they were doing was right, and maybe it was--for that time period. Now, in this time period, changes needed to be made and they're making them.

And frankly, some members can't handle it. We do need to be careful. Some can have negative reactions and there are many different types of people on different levels of learning and understanding.

I had no idea the stones were in the church archives, or that Joseph Smith had any stones beside the ones from the Urim and Thummim. I anticipated that such stones would be crystal stones, clear as glass, based on Ether 3:1. I had some difficulty with the pictures when they were first released because they didn't look like this. It took some time for me to start seeing the simplistic beauty of the stones.

The seer stones exhibit a banding/ring pattern that looks very much like what is called liesegang banding. Can be very beautiful.

I have wondered if Joseph's seer stone was made from onyx, which is the stone in the breast plate of Aaron representing the tribe of Joseph. Onyx is usually brown with stripes and isn't natively black but commonly and artificially dyed black.

[inho]

I wonder if the rumour about 116 pages could have started from a misunderstanding of actual events: the history department of the church has acquired a newly found fragment of BoM manuscript.

LDS Church acquires fragments of original Book of Mormon manuscript

[Alaris]

Were you not aware that we had seer stones in the archives? I thought that was common knowledge. They have lots of things they've collected that would be of interest to us.

There's no question the position of the church has changed over the years to put this information out there, rather than not discussing it. It's the change of leadership, older people dying off and their beliefs dying out. 20 years ago we were regularly cautioned to not read or look at anti mormon stuff--now, I think they figured out that didn't work, there's too much of it and denying it exists didn't help. They come to realize that they should put potentially controversial things out there and give their side. The essays are perfect examples of this change in attitude. I think it's great, but I don't fault the church too much for past policies and positions. They thought what they were doing was right, and maybe it was--for that time period. Now, in this time period, changes needed to be made and they're making them.

And frankly, some members can't handle it. We do need to be careful. Some can have negative reactions and there are many different types of people on different levels of learning and understanding.

I had no idea the stones were in the church archives, or that Joseph Smith had any stones beside the ones from the Urim and Thummim. I anticipated that such stones would be crystal stones, clear as glass, based on Ether 3:1. I had some difficulty with the pictures when they were first released because they didn't look like this. It took some time for me to start seeing the simplistic beauty of the stones.

The seer stones exhibit a banding/ring pattern that looks very much like what is called liesegang banding. Can be very beautiful.

I have wondered if Joseph's seer stone was made from onyx, which is the stone in the breast plate of Aaron representing the tribe of Joseph. Onyx is usually brown with stripes and isn't natively black but commonly and artificially dyed black.

Joseph had several seer stones but the one unveiled by the church could also be Banded Jasper.

[inho]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Bruce Porter has refuted this. This is a snippet from his blog post:

I am not the original or primary source of any of the information surrounding the supposed finding of the 116 pages, but like all rumors, I have been told that this information is true. I have heard things by some who personally know people that are supposedly involved (so it already third hand) and to answer questions about this topic, I always preface myself that 'I am only relating what I have heard' which means nothing. I want to emphasize again that any and all the information I have related in response to the questions ask me is: that the information is from another source rather than myself, and until an official announcement is made by the Church, everything is just hearsay.

[LukeAir2008]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Brother Porter is connected with the church history department and is given regular assignments to investigate church history related events and material. He is credible.

Has anyone heard anything of this finding and can verify if its true or false?

Actually Bruce Porter isn't the man behind the idea that Book of Mormon history took place in what is presently called the United States. Joseph Smith is the man who revealed that Book of Mormon history took place in the United States.

[larsenb]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Brother Porter is connected with the church history department and is given regular assignments to investigate church history related events and material. He is credible.

Has anyone heard anything of this finding and can verify if its true or false?

Actually Bruce Porter isn't the man behind the idea that Book of Mormon history took place in what is presently called the United States. Joseph Smith is the man who revealed that Book of Mormon history took place in the United States.

Nope. An assertion that is heavily larded with assumptions

Dr. John Lund's book, Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, stands like a gigantic roadblock between Heartland modelers assumptions about what Joseph Smith said and taught and what he actually believed.

Most of them aren't aware of this, however. They don't seem to understand that they now have to go through and attempt to refute the statistical, etc., study Lund has presented, in order for them to make any headway with their arguments and their assumptions.

[brlenox]

If any of you know Bruce Porter, he is the man behind the idea that the Book of Mormon history took place here in the land of the United States. My Brother is in his ward and they talk regularly. Anyway, Bruce told him this week that the lost 116 pages have been found and the church is preparing an announcement in the coming weeks. My first reaction was, I'll believe it when I see it.

Brother Porter is connected with the church history department and is given regular assignments to investigate church history related events and material. He is credible.

Has anyone heard anything of this finding and can verify if its true or false?

Actually Bruce Porter isn't the man behind the idea that Book of Mormon history took place in what is presently called the United States. Joseph Smith is the man who revealed that Book of Mormon history took place in the United States.

Nope. An assertion that is heavily larded with assumptions

Dr. John Lund's book, Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, stands like a gigantic roadblock between Heartland modelers assumptions about what Joseph Smith said and taught and what he actually believed.

Most of them aren't aware of this, however. They don't seem to understand that they now have to go through and attempt to refute the statistical, etc., study Lund has presented, in order for them to make any headway with their arguments and their assumptions.

"Larded"...what a wonderfully descriptive word.

[oklds]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

I met these people back in June of 2017; they sought me out because of something Br. Littlebear (Ward member) had told them about some papers I had control of. Previous to that, I had never heard of any of them. They invited me to speak at a couple of 'conferences' and someone else offered to pay our expenses to get there. I thought it would be a nice vacation, so I agreed to go. However, I objected to the lies they posted in their advertisements for it, over and over again. When they refused to stop promoting this thing with lies, I withdrew. Over the course of the next two weeks (before this 'conference') 5 other people who had originally been scheduled to speak also withdrew.

I have a facebook page with all of this data freely available. No one seems to want to go there to check this out before they lump me in with these 'foil-hat-people' and tell a pack of lies about me, but here it is anyway: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MORMONBOX/

Some FACTs:

I was not then, and have not now, been paid one cent to appear at this thing, not will I ever accept that. PERIOD.

These papers are not for sale. I understand that they are quite valuable, and that I have legal ownership of them. That means nothing to me. As far as I am concerned, I am in possession of stolen property which will be returned to it's rightful owner as soon as that can be arranged. PERIOD. (Plus, I don't want to have to stand before Almighty God and explain how I spent the money - got enough to answer for already)

I do NOT know if I am a descendant of Joseph Smith, through whatever line. Many people have told me that DNA could prove or disprove this. That is not true. DNA evidence is worthless after 4 generations. That doesn't matter one bit to me anyway: I can prove that I am a direct descendant of Noah himself, but that doesn't make me a sailor. PERIOD.

I have several bundles of papers from the 1820's, which MIGHT be important. My ancestors seemed to think so, but I refuse to even handle them enough to verify that. One of the bundles does contain 116 sheets, but I do not know if these are the 'lost 116 pages'. As my Grand-Mother said, "Just because you put kittens in the oven, that don't make 'em biscuits." PERIOD.

[oklds]

If it's true; I sure hope they are in the hands of a disinterested 3rd party. Like some museum in New York.

No it's something like the guy who found them, they had been in his family locked away or in a safer deposit box and he inherited them or something. He recently joined the church. I think the church is supposedly testing them for authenticity.

I may have the deatails wrong but it's something like that.

No, you pretty much nailed it.

[oklds]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

These folks are interested in selling tickets to their 'conferences', and trying to get me to let them have copies of the text (just the content) so they can print their own, "Book of Lehi " That ain't gonna happen. However, I do get tired of being lumped in with these kooks and liars.

[oklds]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

There's going to be a conference on the "Book of Lehi." Details at the link above. Look who's on the list of speakers. And who's not.

Preparing A People Conference - Orem, Utah
"Preparing to Receive More of the Book of Mormon
Sat 9 September 2017 9:00 am - 5:00 pm
UVU Special Event Center, Orem-UT.
​
This is an All-day Conference held at the Utah Valley Convention center featuring LDS Speakers, Music, & Video Testimonies.

Speakers include: Dan Judd, Shawn Littlebear, Chad Daybell, Hector Sosa Jr., Pamela Romney Openshaw & more.

They won't be talking about the "Book of Lehi" because they do not have it. I won't be there, and I suggest anyone who bought a ticket to this fiasco thinking I was, should ask for their money back. If you want to read th whole story, I'll try to get it all posted this WE on my facebook page. The price to read that story is quite a bit less than the price to listen to wild conjecture and outright lies: Nothing.

[oklds]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

I see.... and for a mere $25/ticket, I too can listen to him tell all about the 116 pages that supposedly the Smith family lost nearly 200 years ago? Not to mention I can meet Chad Daybell and Hector Sosa, notorious NDE and Julie Rowe fans?

Something doesn't smell right.

You're right, and that smell is the smell of BS. I am the one who would know, and I'm telling you right now that there will NOT be any "Book of Lehi" discussion (at least by me).

[oklds]

I shouldn't probably post this online, but I know the name of the man with the 116 pages. His name is Hofmann, Mark Hofmann

No, I just heard that name for the first time two months ago. A more worthless piece of crap I think I've never heard of.

[oklds]

https://www.preparingapeople.com/copy-of-events

These folks are claiming Dan Judd, a decendant of Joseph Smith, inherited the 116 pages. See link

I see.... and for a mere $25/ticket, I too can listen to him tell all about the 116 pages that supposedly the Smith family lost nearly 200 years ago? Not to mention I can meet Chad Daybell and Hector Sosa, notorious NDE and Julie Rowe fans?

Something doesn't smell right.

In the old version of the page (https://www.preparingapeople.com/events), Julie Rowe is listed too.

Sounds like a Hucksters Reunion tour. If this thing turns out to be a fraud, I hope it takes the rest of them down with it.

Ditto!

[oklds]

Another supposed 'faith promoting' rumor, I suspect. And as Silver said, if Bruce Porter has such a great reputation, then why would he be breaking confidences by sharing this info?

I'll just say, when the authentic Ark of the Covenant is found, I'll believe there is a chance the 116 pages could be found.

Please don't blame this Bruce Porter for any of this - he had nothing to do with it. His name was dragged in by these clowns promoting this 'conference' in order to sell more tickets. I doubt he ever heard of this before last month, and I suspect he's more than willing to never hear of it again. I know I am, and I'm the guy that has the papers.