Why debate polygamy?

[Rensai]

We should not revere any man, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I greatly revere my father. He is the smartest man I've ever known, and I have tried (in vain) to live up to the fine example he set for me. That doesn't mean I'm aware of his weakness and failings, but I can know about these and still admire the greatness in him, and in my own small way try to emulate the good things I learned from him.

We should only revere God and not esteem one man above another.

We should only worship God. I think it is fine to esteem some individuals more than others, at least to the point that we follow their good examples and avoid their failings.

I don't disagree with what I think you're saying here. Of course we have more respect for those who have set a fine example, etc. In the context of revering a prophet, I was thinking more along the lines of blind obedience, or in this specific conversation, trusting him over the scriptures. Its wrong. I guess I could have been more clear, but its hard to fully express your thoughts in a quick message on a forum.

I don't judge them, only God can judge and it will vary based on circumstances and what they knew, etc. He is the judge. He is the one saying polygamy is an abomination, that's not me, that's God's plain words. Set aside what men have said or done and read his words plainly and carefully.

Jesus didn't tell us to NEVER judge, He told us to judge righteously. We are to exercise the same kind of judgement we hope will be used for us.

Again, I agree. I didn't say you can't judge. Just saying that in this case, specifically on the polygamy in the early church, its complicated and I don't feel like I have enough info to judge anyone. I don't know exactly why they did what they did, I haven't lived in their society, etc.

[skmo]

Eternity is not possible without polygamy.

I believe this to be completely false.

There is a need for both an Eve and a Mary.

Eve had Adam (it actually worked opposite of that order, though.) Mary had Joseph.

Polygamy is an Eternal Law.

Again, I believe this to be incorrect. That is my opinion.

What is NOT opinion, however, is that we have been commanded by the prophet to reject polygamy at this time as not allowed, and that those who practice it are in apostasy from God's church which requires either repentance or excommunication. That is not an opinion, it is a commandment given to us by revelation. People may reject it or find means to justify disobedience to it, but until God reveals a change, His word stands.

So I agree, why debate polygamy?

Again, it's usually either either selfish desires or a wish to harm the church.

[Fiannan]

Polygamy existed to fulfill a need among God's children. His children do not need polygamy in this lifetime to achieve exaltation.

Is marriage in the temple required to progress to exaltation?

[TrueIntent]

Polygamy existed to fulfill a need among God's children. His children do not need polygamy in this lifetime to achieve exaltation.

Is marriage in the temple required to progress to exaltation?

supposedly....Can any exalted beings please chime in to confirm or deny this teaching??

[TrueIntent]

Eternity is not possible without polygamy.

I believe this to be completely false.

There is a need for both an Eve and a Mary.

Eve had Adam (it actually worked opposite of that order, though.) Mary had Joseph.

Polygamy is an Eternal Law.

Again, I believe this to be incorrect. That is my opinion.

What is NOT opinion, however, is that we have been commanded by the prophet to reject polygamy at this time as not allowed, and that those who practice it are in apostasy from God's church which requires either repentance or excommunication. That is not an opinion, it is a commandment given to us by revelation. People may reject it or find means to justify disobedience to it, but until God reveals a change, His word stands.

So I agree, why debate polygamy?

Again, it's usually either either selfish desires or a wish to harm the church.

There was a debate in Sunday School a couple weeks ago...The elderly woman was a second wife and didn't understand polygamy and said it was hard for her to know that her husband was still sealed to his first wife as well, but she said she understands that her husband loved his first wife too, even though it caused her pain. Who is the selfish one....the woman who accepts a teaching she doesn't understand that causes her pain so her husband will be happy?, or the man who has been married to the second wife for most of his life, but won't let go of even the idea of having two wives in the next, so that the wife he shared most of his life with in this life doesn't have to suffer any emotional pain. Who is the selfish one??

Wish to harm the church???? or wish to be loved and cleaved completely too by ones spouse...mentally and emotionally....the greater pain for me would not lie in whether or not I can inflict pain in the church, but rather that I had lived a lifetime serving my companion, while he emotionally was serving two different women in his mind. There's more than one side to this story....people still rail against polygamy because they are still living with the emotional baggage the church places on them from the cultural traditions of the early church.

[Fiannan]

A huge segment of active LDS women will never be able to marry an LDS man who can take them to the temple. So essentially these leftovers are going to do what in regards to their eternal progression?

[TrueIntent]

A huge segment of active LDS women will never be able to marry an LDS man who can take them to the temple. So essentially these leftovers are going to do what in regards to their eternal progression?

fight over the left over men...Every mans dream.

[skmo]

There was a debate in Sunday School a couple weeks ago...The elderly woman was a second wife and didn't understand polygamy and said it was hard for her to know that her husband was still sealed to his first wife as well, but she said she understands that her husband loved his first wife too, even though it caused her pain.

My apologies. Any time I speak of polygamy, I mean a man having two or more living wives at the same time. No, let me be more clear: ANY AND EVERY TIME I speak of polygamy, I mean a man having two or more living wives at the same time. In almost every discussion of polygamy I've seen it's been some guy who wants to justify his selfish and perverted desire to move into the Colorado City community as the successor to Warren Jeffs or one of his cronies.

I do understand that confusion and jealousy can appear in having a new spouse after one has passed on. In that I have always felt peaceful with the explanation that as God knows and understands our hearts and our desires, if we live righteously we will be granted those desires in eternity. It sounds like a platitude, but I also recognize how deep the Truth in this can go. It comes to me from an understanding of how deep the Atonement can be.

One other thing: I have truly learned of God's Love for each of us. Having never had children of my own it has been a somewhat more difficult notion for me to comprehend than others I know, but I do have as fair a sense as my limited mind can envelop. I have pure and complete faith in His Love. I trust in Him that He will help us to have complete fulfillment.

[skmo]

A huge segment of active LDS women will never be able to marry an LDS man who can take them to the temple. So essentially these leftovers are going to do what in regards to their eternal progression?

How many men in history will have their temple work done for them and follow through in their duty to follow God's commandments? Who's to say there won't be more men in the Final Judgement for exaltation?

[skmo]

fight over the left over men...Every mans dream.

While I understand (and have formerly shared) the joke in this, allow me to let a little rain fall on it:

Having been in a situation not all that dissimilar to that, I'll share that it wound up a terribly painful thing when something like that happened.

[Fiannan]

In the near future women who want children will go to the sperm bank and male sperm will be easily filtered out and allow lesbian and polyamorous unions choose daughters. Some will have males but for the most part males are useless in large numbers. On chicken farms chicks hatch and the males and females are divided. Males are put on conveyer belts and wind up ground up alive to make up nutrients for the female chickens. The best males are saved for breeding. As males are less successful in a technological society I think that marriage will dissolve and the ratio of women to men may be 7 to 1 (now where is that ratio found?).
I absolutely believe this was going on before the Flood. So do not assume human sexual ratios have been 50/50, or that they will be in the future.

[FTC]

Why debate polygamy? Because even after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, the desire to mate with an entire herd of females still hasn't been bred out of males.

[skmo]

Polygamy existed to fulfill a need among God's children. His children do not need polygamy in this lifetime to achieve exaltation.

Is marriage in the temple required to progress to exaltation?

supposedly....Can any exalted beings please chime in to confirm or deny this teaching??

They're dead. Neither AT&T nor Verizon offer Wi-Fi in the Spirit World yet.

That'd be really cool, though. I'd love to get a hello from my mom.

[skmo]

Why debate polygamy? Because even after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, the desire to mate with an entire herd of females still hasn't been bred out of males.

Besides, even with as contentious as it can be, having debates about polygamy is still not anywhere near as horrifying as having debates between Hillary and Michelle for 2020.

I'd rather vote for Bieber. Yes, I know he's a Canadian.

[Fiannan]

Why debate polygamy? Because even after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, the desire to mate with an entire herd of females still hasn't been bred out of males.

Nonsense, then we would not be seeing most American men getting castrated, I mean getting fixed, so they can't have kids after the wife has one or two kids. Also, we would not see a shortage of male donors in countries that do not pay sperm donors.

[djinwa]

Polygamy would solve that and from my understanding Zion cannot and will not be established unless polygamy exists.

I profoundly disagree.

Polygamy existed to fulfill a need among God's children. His children do not need polygamy in this lifetime to achieve exaltation.

To proclaim one has knowledge of requirements in the eternities is speculation, at best among saints. We are toddlers claiming to know how to get rich in adulthood. This life is a time to prepare to meet God, to prove ourselves in our first mortal, physical experience. Speculation of things we can't prove and can't know for the next life is a waste of effort. We know what we need to do in this life, we should do it to the best of our ability.

I agree it is a waste of effort to speculate on the next life. That is for the prophet to relay to us from God.

But how can we not care about about the next life? We teach kids in primary that families can be together forever through Heavenly Father's plan. Everything is about eternal families, eternal joy, building worlds of our own, becoming gods, avoiding eternal damnation and the lake of fire, etc.

So you can't say to forget about the next life. And to exercise our free agency, and to choose which reward we want (telestial, terrestrial, celestial) you need to know what you're getting into.

But apparently there were teachings about the eternities that have become unpopular, so we now are told to forget about the next life. Just lower your head, keep paying and obeying, and blindly pursue what you don't understand. Just assume that whatever we are getting into will be good.

Well how about sending me a thousand bucks and I guarantee you I'll give you something you want. Trust me.

[Seek the Truth]

In the context of revering a prophet, I was thinking more along the lines of blind obedience, or in this specific conversation, trusting him over the scriptures. Its wrong.

The scriptures were written by prophets. Men. Sometimes not prophets in the case of Luke.

[skmo]

But how can we not care about about the next life?

If I didn't care about the next life, I'd possibly still be taking as much Percocet I could get and might still be doing everything those pills helped me do before I fell onto the sobriety wagon. If there's no next life, this world is FAR too painful to face without assistance in my mind. That's why the gospel is so very important.

So you can't say to forget about the next life.

I try to choose my words carefully, I don't always succeed. However, if you've taken from my words to "forget" about the next life, allow me to clarify. The whole of the gospel, to me, is explaining to us that there WILL be a next life, and that we need to live this life correct to help us best succeed in the next. However, speculation about what may or may not be in the next life is foolish to me, especially in a topic like polygamy which has caused so much suffering in this life. Because of this, we've been given clear direction from God about it this, our Second Estate.

It does not matter what God has had individuals in the past do. Their needs were different, their situations were different, and we've been clearly told it's a complete no-go for us now.

But apparently there were teachings about the eternities that have become unpopular

Popularity is immaterial when teachings are wrong. There were teachings that blacks would never be given the Priesthood. Has there been a big push since Summer 1978 to tell the Prophet (or just tell other members) "Hey, we've got to get everybody but white people out of the Priesthood" where you are?

Even were we to assume the teachings saying "Only polygamists can get to 3-A Celestial Level" were correct, I doubt they are, but if we assume for discussion they are, it doesn't change the fact that God has told us through His prophet that the practice of polygamy at this time is not allowed. Either God is telling us the truth, and we need to obey Him, with the understanding that since He is a loving and just God that if we have to be polygamists we'll have the opportunity when the time is right in His plan, or God is wrong and/or the prophets have been lying to us. That's an easy leap of faith for me to make my selection.

Just assume that whatever we are getting into will be good.

Sounds like a pretty sad assumption to me. I'd prefer to think of it that the God who could create the Universe, the planets, and Marie Osmond (I've never really gotten over my crush on her) is wise enough in His plan to keep His promise to us that, line upon line, we will be given all we need to achieve exaltation.

Well how about sending me a thousand bucks and I guarantee you I'll give you something you want. Trust me.

You're not God's prophet. You also don't have 14 other ordained prophets counselling and supporting you.

I was single once. I used the "Trust me" line at Ricks College MORE than enough to know to never accept it from any man. After the turns my life's taken in the past decade, I've added "any woman" to that list now, too. I'm also faithful enough to trust that when God gives us something through His prophet, admittedly, a man, I can follow it. I pray and study all the time to get reassurances from the Holy Spirit my faith is well placed.

[skmo]

In the context of revering a prophet, I was thinking more along the lines of blind obedience, or in this specific conversation, trusting him over the scriptures. Its wrong.

Times change, the needs of people change.

Moses was a prophet. We don't stone adulterers.

Paul was a prophet. We don't force women to have long hair or to remain silent in church. Sunday School lessons on Paul's comments on women explain we don't know some of the context for Paul's letters, but this is just another good example of why relying EXCLUSIVLY on 2,000 year old records might not always be completely wise.

Christ was the Son of God. We don't have wine at our weddings.

Remember the 9th Article of Faith: We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. If we believe He will yet reveal things, we need to have a prophet. Like we learn with Paul's Epistles, we also need to remember the 8th Article of Faith:

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. :highlights added: A living prophet helps us ensure we are hearing the things God wants us to hear when He wants us to hear them.

[RAB]

To me, the scriptures are clear. Monogamy is the rule. Polygamy is the exception. I have heard statements that make it seem like polygamy will be necessary in the eternities, that I find lacking. The biggest one, for example, is the idea that there will be many more women in the Celestial Kingdom, so Polygamy will be necessary for all men. But I challenge that assumption. The mortality rate for males is higher at birth, men are much more likely to die younger (because they take more risks with their health), more men have been killed in wars at a much younger age, and we know of at least two mass exterminations of male children in the scriptures. So, I would counter that we have no idea whether there will be many more women than men in the Celestial Kingdom.

The second one I hear is that polygamy will be necessary to glorify the Father much faster, presumably because more spirit children can be created. My problem with that supposition is it assumes Heavenly Father cares how quickly spirit children are born and that faster is better. But as I come to understand more about my Father in Heaven, I see that He takes His time with things. The creation of the universe, the earth, the animals and plants, these were not quick things. Time is a construct for man. As we read in the scriptures, it is all as one day with Him. So, I do not find it a compelling argument that polygamy will be required to multiply at a faster rate to glorify His name. In my mind, a much more beautiful picture is one of a couple creating and getting to know really well one child at a time before creating another. But maybe that is just me.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would want to practice polygamy. The idea of sexual relations with anyone other than my wife is absolutely repugnant. I didn't think that way as a teenage, boy, of course, when, the hormones were raging. But once I found my wife, I can't imagine how terrible for her or for me it would be to share that intimacy we have with someone else. I think that is what the Lord was telling Joseph Smith when he said [paraphrasing], "When people ask me about how Abraham, etc. were justified, I require them to live this law." Presumably, so that they can know for themselves how very NOT awesome it was, and that it certainly came by commandment, not lust. It was heartbreaking for both the men and the women called to live the law. Just read the accounts of the first brothers and sisters who had to live the law, and the miraculous spiritual experiences they had to receive in order to agree.

So, I can't say with certainty that there will be no polygamy in the eternities. The statistical improbability of an exact number of men and women that merit the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom prohibits such a position. But I can say, like earth life, I believe it will be the exception not the rule. And for that I am eternally grateful. What I want more than anything in the world is a Celestial Marriage with my wife. I have a temple marriage, but I think sometimes people believe a temple marriage means you are stuck with a person. But I believe it is a covenant with a promise that you can be together. But I also believe that God will never force anyone into an eternal relationship. So, when our judgment day comes, I hope I have done enough that my wife will choose to spend an eternity with me instead of choosing to go it alone, or whatever is behind door number two. So to that end, I am trying to create a Celestial Marriage with my wife, a marriage which is the substance of Celestial happiness. My progress is slow. I have had a lot of immaturity and selfishness to overcome, but she has stuck with me so far.

Please pardon the ramblings. We have been geographically separated for months while trying to sell our house and me working in the new location, so this topic has dredged up some feelings.

[natasha]

I can't remember just who said it...but it was at a general conference...and I loved it. He said "the general authorities will always speak plainly so that we will understand...and plainly so that we will not MISunderstand. No hidden meanings or innuendos.

[roycelerwick]

We tell investigators we get special revelation through our prophets, yet they let us argue endlessly over basic doctrine.

Is this really arguing about "basic" doctrine? Not really "basic" is it? A pretty obscure, fringe concept isn't it?

You're the one who's decided it's "basic" doctrine, or doctrine at all.

[roycelerwick]

(i'm not saying a person who does not understand is bad or anything) but everyone is different and has a different level of understanding, they may not accept it now but will later who knows. in my opinion you receive answers to your prayers according to the desire of your heart and your level of understanding, which is why many receive different answers to the same question.

This is one of my favorite arguments from those who "ponder the mysteries." Meaning, well, I understand it, but of course not everyone has the keen insight and inspiration that I have. Plus, I knew Bruce R McKonkie's niece and she told me that Elder McKonkie taught...

But the one I like best is the catch-all, "you know there are TWO sources of inspiration..." meaning, if you disagree with me, you're getting your info from Satan. That's the one you get if your bishop tells you to go on a mission, you pray, and come up with a different plan. If you do not follow the program without exception, the one-size-fits-all plan for your life, well, you're a write-off who will burn in hell along with his evil enabler, the devil. But it's also used member-member for political differences and any other "doctrinal" disagreement.

[djinwa]

We tell investigators we get special revelation through our prophets, yet they let us argue endlessly over basic doctrine.

Is this really arguing about "basic" doctrine? Not really "basic" is it? A pretty obscure, fringe concept isn't it?

You're the one who's decided it's "basic" doctrine, or doctrine at all.

I think that it is pretty basic to know how you'll spend eternity - whether with one wife or many. That is a pretty big issue for a lot of people, and would be a major factor in exercising their free agency and choosing which path they want to take.

Fascinating how few know what they're getting into. Just keep speculating. If we do end up doing polygamy in the next life, it will be hell for many.

[simpleton]

stumbled upon this by Apostle Orson Pratt:

Now I want to prophesy a little. It is not very often that I prophesy, though I was commanded to do so, when I was a boy.

I want to prophesy that all men and women who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them from the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent. That is just as true as it is that all the nations and kingdoms of the earth, when they hear this Gospel which God has restored in these last days, will be damned if they do not receive it; for the Lord has said so.

One is just as true as the other. I will quote this latter saying, as recorded in the Book of Covenants. The Lord said to the Elders of this Church, in the very commencement as it were, “Go ye forth and preach the gospel to every creature,

and as I said unto mine ancient Apostles, even so I say unto you, that every soul who believes in your words, and will repent of his sins and be baptized in water shall receive a remission of his sins, and shall be filled with the Holy Ghost;

and every soul in all the world who will not believe in your words, neither repent of his sins, shall be damned;

and this revelation or commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world,”

as fast as they hear it. That is what the Lord has said. Just so, in regard to polygamy, or any other great principle which the Lord our God reveals to the inhabitants of the earth.

Now, if you want to get into darkness, brethren and sisters, begin to oppose this revelation. Sisters, you begin to say before your husbands, 

or husbands you begin to say before your wives, “I do not believe in the principle of polygamy, and I intend to instruct my children against it.” Oppose it in this way, and teach your children to do the same, and if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism.