Mysteries of the Kingdom

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freedomforall
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:44 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:25 am
freedomforall wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:07 am
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:47 pm
freedomforall,
I would like to take advantage of you vast and perfect knowledge of scripture.
What does this one mean. In the interest of being up front, I know, but do you? Absolutely!
Dazzle me. I need not give you an answer, I'll let you figure it out using references provided in scripture, because I'm not here to dazzle, just provide scriptural truth, then we can compare notes. BeNotDeceived answered it very nicely.
D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.


Are there other scriptures that address this or add clarity? Yes, absolutely. Ps. 49:15; Mosiah 27:24 (24–26); Moses 5:9; A of F 1:3. ...Moro. 8:12 (8, 12, 22); D&C 29:46. ...TG Spirit Body. ...TG Conceived in Sin; Purity. ...TG Redemption. ...TG Fall of Man. ...TG Justification; Salvation of Little Children; Sanctification.

Be careful, it is a trick question. Just being honest.
But you've condemned me, so let's see if you can do better. There you go again making false accusations. I don't condemn you as a person, rather, I refuse to accept your doctrine. Huuuuugggge difference. Are you and your doctrine of the same pod, melded together, one feeling insulted if the other is challenged? Let's quit the mind games and get real, okay?
Your Ad hominem attacks have been personal.

So what does it mean?
It means that you cannot separate your doctrine from you as a person. I have not issued ad hominem attacks against your person, just your doctrine.

Is this what you infer?

ad hominem
adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.

Or do you simply say whatever sounds good?

You're the one that called me a liar on the internet. Now that is ad hominem as well as slander and libel. So get off the high horse or quit the mind games, which ever comes first, not to mention the persecution complex evidently exhibited.

At this juncture, I say we part company because this back and forth nonsense is getting real boring and senseless.

Blessed are the peacemakers. Have a wonderful life. Bye.
Last edited by freedomforall on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:47 am

freedomforall wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:44 am
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:25 am
freedomforall wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:07 am
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:47 pm
freedomforall,
I would like to take advantage of you vast and perfect knowledge of scripture.
What does this one mean. In the interest of being up front, I know, but do you? Absolutely!
Dazzle me. I need not give you an answer, I'll let you figure it out using references provided in scripture, because I'm not here to dazzle, just provide scriptural truth, then we can compare notes. BeNotDeceived answered it very nicely.



Are there other scriptures that address this or add clarity? Yes, absolutely. Ps. 49:15; Mosiah 27:24 (24–26); Moses 5:9; A of F 1:3. ...Moro. 8:12 (8, 12, 22); D&C 29:46. ...TG Spirit Body. ...TG Conceived in Sin; Purity. ...TG Redemption. ...TG Fall of Man. ...TG Justification; Salvation of Little Children; Sanctification.

Be careful, it is a trick question. Just being honest.
But you've condemned me, so let's see if you can do better. There you go again making false accusations. I don't condemn you as a person, rather, I refuse to accept your doctrine. Huuuuugggge difference. Are you and your doctrine of the same pod, melded together, one feeling insulted if the other is challenged? Let's quit the mind games and get real, okay?
Your Ad hominem attacks have been personal.

So what does it mean?
It means that you cannot separate your doctrine from you as a person. I have not issued ad hominem attacks against your person, just your doctrine.

Is this what you infer?

ad hominem
adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.

Or do you simply say whatever sounds good?

You're the one that called me a liar on the internet. Now that is ad hominem as well as slander and libel. So get off the high horse or quit the mind games, which ever comes first, not to mention the persecution complex exhibited.
ad ho·mi·nem
ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adverb & adjective
adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem

1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"
2.
relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:51 am

D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
Every spirit of man - the part of us that is eternal
was innocent - free of sin and offense to others
in the beginning - at the start of this generation of time, eternal round
and God - God the father
having redeemed man from the fall - we have fallen before and redeemed from that previous fall
men became again - were were before the fall and are again
in their infant state, innocent before God - free of sin and offense to others.

This is how we became the Sons and Daughters of God the Father.
And started this generation in innocents.

And this will happen again;
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
Now you know why Jesus is called the Father and the Son.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby BeNotDeceived » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:18 pm

eddie wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:00 pm
Hidingingbehind

When wanting a civil conversation, then one needs to give a civil conversation! Calling liar, twisting the facts, and then ask for a civil conversation??


I praised his inverted pyramid style and offered a prize.

Image Image

He accused me of Ad Hominem Attack. :?:
The style of the OP uses said inverted pyramid style. Image
Proof is the antithesis of faith. It’s often what you don’t say that makes the greater statement. Not all truth is provable.
My Christmas wish comes true on the Real Christmas. Thank God I'm only watching the game, controlling it. —Chess

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:09 pm

[quote wrote:D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
Every spirit of man - the part of us that is eternal resurrected persons, having spirit and body reunited are eternal as well.
was innocent - free of sin and offense to others works for me
in the beginning - at the start of this generation of time, eternal round Pre-earth life, agreed
and God - God the father No, Jesus Christ is the only redeemer, under God The Father.
having redeemed man from the fall - we have fallen before and redeemed from that previous fall Man is fallen because of Adam's transgression. Christ redeemed us from that, as well as sins committed by us and forgiveness granted via repentance...so we can go back to Father.
men became again - were were before the fall and are again man became innocent before God through repentance and our Lord, Jesus Christ. This suggests we were innocent before and innocent after through the atonement.
in their infant state, innocent before God - free of sin and offense to others. Agreed

This is how we became the Sons and Daughters of God the Father. Actually we become sons and daughters to Jesus by obeying his commandments, by always remembering him, and seeking to have his spirit with us. Gee, sounds like the Sacramental prayer, huh?
And started this generation in innocents. Redundant.

And this will happen again;
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
Now you know why Jesus is called the Father and the Son.
[/quote]
Mosiah 27:24
24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

Moro. 8:8,12
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

Jesus is the father and the son.

The Father/Jehovah because he was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost and took upon himself humanity.
The Son, being Jesus Christ, the flesh, by which Jehovah entered into and walked the earth.
The Son, flesh, being subjected to the will of the Father, Jehovah, being Father and Son. SEE Mosiah 15:1-5

Did not Philip ask Jesus to show the Father? And what was the response Jesus gave him?

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:02 pm

"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290
I have been taught many times in both SS and QM/GM that Jesus Christ is the Savior of All, worlds without Number. That since the Atonement is infinite, it saves all who has ever been and all who will ever be. That this was the only world wicked enough to kill the Savior. Do you believe that.
Our world is the most wicked ever, that there is only one Savior ever?

It is not true. Every world has it's own savior. But it goes even further that that.
The savior teaches us how to become perfect like the Father;
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
Before the Atonement, only The Father was perfect.
3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your
Father who is in heaven is perfect.
After the Atonement, both The Father and The Son are perfect.
He even told us that the only way to be a Father is to first be a Son.
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Has there ever been a Father that was not first a Son?

Are there two paths to Exaltation? One for Saviors of worlds and one for the rest of us?
That does not ring true, there is only one way
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
And not only that, not many will go that way, like one per world.

This is how the Atonement actually works. It gives us Eternal Lives to qualify to be the Savior of the world. And it then perfects the Savior of a world to become a Father. A Father that redeems us, to be innocent again, and gives us another opportunity to improve ourselves and qualify to become the first born, the only begotten of the father, savior of a world.

That is what Brigham told us. That is how things work. Eternal rounds, generations of time.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:02 pm
"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290


I have been taught many times in both SS and QM/GM that Jesus Christ is the Savior of All, worlds without Number. That since the Atonement is infinite, it saves all who has ever been and all who will ever be. That this was the only world wicked enough to kill the Savior. Do you believe that.
Our world is the most wicked ever, that there is only one Savior ever?

It is not true. Every world has it's own savior. But it goes even further that that.
The savior teaches us how to become perfect like the Father;
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
Before the Atonement, only The Father was perfect.
3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your
Father who is in heaven is perfect.
After the Atonement, both The Father and The Son are perfect.
He even told us that the only way to be a Father is to first be a Son.
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Has there ever been a Father that was not first a Son?

Are there two paths to Exaltation? One for Saviors of worlds and one for the rest of us?
That does not ring true, there is only one way
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And not only that, not many will go that way, like one per world.

This is how the Atonement actually works. It gives us Eternal Lives to qualify to be the Savior of the world. And it then perfects the Savior of a world to become a Father. A Father that redeems us, to be innocent again, and gives us another opportunity to improve ourselves and qualify to become the first born, the only begotten of the father, savior of a world.

That is what Brigham told us. That is how things work. Eternal rounds, generations of time.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:41 am

freedomforall wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 am
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:02 pm
"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290


I have been taught many times in both SS and QM/GM that Jesus Christ is the Savior of All, worlds without Number. That since the Atonement is infinite, it saves all who has ever been and all who will ever be. That this was the only world wicked enough to kill the Savior. Do you believe that.
Our world is the most wicked ever, that there is only one Savior ever?

It is not true. Every world has it's own savior. But it goes even further that that.
The savior teaches us how to become perfect like the Father;
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
Before the Atonement, only The Father was perfect.
3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your
Father who is in heaven is perfect.
After the Atonement, both The Father and The Son are perfect.
He even told us that the only way to be a Father is to first be a Son.
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Has there ever been a Father that was not first a Son?

Are there two paths to Exaltation? One for Saviors of worlds and one for the rest of us?
That does not ring true, there is only one way
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And not only that, not many will go that way, like one per world.

This is how the Atonement actually works. It gives us Eternal Lives to qualify to be the Savior of the world. And it then perfects the Savior of a world to become a Father. A Father that redeems us, to be innocent again, and gives us another opportunity to improve ourselves and qualify to become the first born, the only begotten of the father, savior of a world.

That is what Brigham told us. That is how things work. Eternal rounds, generations of time.
Marking it out does not make it go away.
In the King Follet discourse, Joseph says that Jesus said he only did what he saw the Father do.
And what is that. He laid his life down and took it up again.
Joseph even says that the scriptures say that.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:43 am

I have spoken the truth. I have received it from the writings of the Lord's anointed, from the testimonies of true messengers from the Father.
Joseph knew the scriptures better than anyone on the earth at that time, he knew what is correct and what is in error in the scriptures.
And he taught what he taught knowing that the errors in scripture were not in harmony with what he taught.
He was set apart before the foundations of this word were laid to be the prophet of the dispensation of the fullness of times, to restore the plain and precious truths lost through disbelief and disobedience. He, along with his dear brother, sealed his testimony of all he taught with his blood.
And the Savior did not withdraw from him. And as he is still the key holder of this dispensation, meaning he still presides, his testimony still stands.
He taught the truth And no man has the authority or stewardship to say otherwise.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:11 am

freedomforall wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 am
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
Before the Atonement, only The Father was perfect.
3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your
Father who is in heaven is perfect.
After the Atonement, both The Father and The Son are perfect.
He even told us that the only way to be a Father is to first be a Son.
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Has there ever been a Father that was not first a Son?

Are there two paths to Exaltation? One for Saviors of worlds and one for the rest of us?
That does not ring true, there is only one way
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,
You deny the Lord's anointed.
And now, do you even deny the scriptures?

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:29 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:02 pm

I have been taught many times in both SS and QM/GM that Jesus Christ is the Savior of All, worlds without Number. That since the Atonement is infinite, it saves all who has ever been and all who will ever be. That this was the only world wicked enough to kill the Savior. Do you believe that.
Our world is the most wicked ever, that there is only one Savior ever?
freedomforall,
because you did not strike this out,
I take it that you believe it to be true.
Is that so?

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:55 am

It is not possible for any being to raise any other above where the first being is, only to the same level as he is.
The only way God could have helped Jesus to prepare to and become the Savior of a World is for him to have been
a Savior of a world. This is what is meant when he Jesus says he has only done what he has seen the Father do.
If the Father was, and indeed he was, the savior of a world, then Christ was NOT the savior of all, or at least
an unqualified all. He was/is the Savior of all who sin on this world, except perdition.
That is the qualifier in most cases. Statements made, unless told otherwise, are usually qualified as to pertaining
to this world only.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:41 pm

Upon seeing Brigham Young for the first time and while yet some distance away the Prophet Joseph stopped his chopping on a beech log, straightened up, studied Brigham for a moment, then remarked: "There comes the greatest man who ever lived to teach the identity of God to the world, and he will yet lead this people."
[Brigham Young first met Joseph Smith in September, 1832 in Kirtland, Ohio. He said: "Here my joy was full at the privilege of shaking the hand of the Prophet of God, and I received the sure testimony, by the spirit of prophecy, that he was all any man could believe him to be, a true prophet." (Mill Star July 11, 1863, p. 439.) During this visit a meeting was held in which Brigham spoke in tongues. After this manifestation Joseph prophesied: "The time will come when brother Brigham Young will preside over the Church." (See History of the Church 1:297; Mighty Men of Zion, p. 16; Mill Star 21:439; Journal of Discourses 3:51; 4:54; 5:332; 8:206; 9:89, 332; They Knew The Prophet, Hyrum L. Andrus, p. 34.)]
Salt Lake School of the Prophet, Minutes, 1883, pp. 69-70; CHO CR/390/1/Box 1, Oct 11, 1883. The following account took place on 7 May 1834 at New Portage, Ohio which is about 50 miles from Kirtland, Ohio. See where the Prophet went here in HC 2:64 & Life of Joseph Smith the Prophet, by G. Q. Cannon, p. 173.

Once after returning from a mission, he [Zebedee Coltrin] met Bro. Joseph in Kirtland, who asked him if he did not wish to go with him to a conference at New Portage. The party consisted of Prests. Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery and myself. Next morning at New Portage, he noticed that Joseph seemed to have a far off look in his eyes, or was looking at a distance, and presently he, Joseph, stepped between Brothers Cowdery, and Coltrin and taking them by the arm, said, "lets take a walk." They went to a place where there was some beautiful grass, and grapevines and swampbeech interlaced. President Joseph Smith then said, "Let us pray." They all three prayed in turn--Joseph, Oliver and Zebedee. Bro. Joseph then said, "now brethren we will see some visions." Joseph lay down on the ground on his back and stretched out his arms and the two brethren lay on them. The heavens gradually opened, and they saw a golden throne, on a circular foundation, something like a light house, and on the throne were two aged personages, having white hair, and clothed in white garments. They were the two most beautiful and perfect specimens of mankind he ever saw. Joseph said, They are our first parents, Adam and Eve. Adam was a large broad shouldered man, and Eve as a woman, was as large in proportion.
Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, Vol 13:89; August 25th, 1890; Richfield, Utah. The following account took place on 7 May 1834 at New Portage, Ohio which is about 50 miles from Kirtland, Ohio. See where the Prophet went here in HC 2:64 & Life of Joseph Smith the Prophet, G. Q. Cannon, p. 173.
Pres. Peterson told of an incident which he often heard Zebedee Coltrin relate. One day the Prophet Joseph asked him and Sidney Rigdon to accompany him into the woods to pray. When they had reached a secluded spot, Joseph laid down on his back and stretched out his arms. He told the brethren to lie one on each arm, and then shut their eyes. After they had prayed he told them to open their eyes. They did so and saw a brilliant light surrounding a pedestal which seemed to rest on the earth. They closed their eyes and again prayed. They then saw, on opening them, the Father seated upon a throne; they prayed again and on looking saw the Mother also; after praying and looking the fourth time they saw the Savior added to the group. He had _____________ brown, rather long, wavy hair and appeared quite young

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:42 pm

Article by William W. Phelps, Messenger and Advocate, Vol. 1, No. 9, p. 130; June 1835.
New light is occasionally bursted into our minds, of the sacred scriptures, for which I am truly thankful. We shall by and by learn that we were with God in another world, before the foundation of the world, and had our agency; that we came into this world and have our agency, in order that we may prepare ourselves for a kingdom of glory; become archangels, even the sons of God where the man is neither without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord: A consummation of glory, and happiness, and perfection so greatly to be wished, that I would not miss of it for the fame of ten worlds.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:45 pm

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373; Joseph Smith; June 16, 1844.
If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father (see Rev 1:6), you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346; Joseph Smith; April Conference, 1844.
What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the Father did, The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:49 pm

The following statement was recorded by Anson Call in Nauvoo and copied by Patriarch John M. Whitaker also of Nauvoo. B. H. Roberts, Church Historian years later made a copy from Patriarch Whitaker"s copy. Joseph Smith; 1840- 1844 (Nauvoo days); c. 1844.
Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:55 pm

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; Brigham Young; February 16, 1847.
I have a request to make of my family & that is that they, especially old people omit calling me their Father. Call me Brother Brigham--I shall feel better when you do for I do not consider that I am worthy of that appellation-- Father in the Priesthood implies the great head, the term would be proper to Father Adam. Jesus had reference to the same thing when he told his disciples not to call any man Father on earth for their Father was in heaven.
JD 1:50-51; Friday, April 9, 1852; Sermon delivered by President Brigham Young in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, SLC, Utah.
In the Deseret News minutes of this meeting it said: "President Brigham Young addressed the Saints on the subject of their endowments, and poured forth revelation after revelation on the subject. A most heavenly influence prevailed. He closed by shouting Hallelujah, Praise ye the Lord. * * * 6 P.M. The Elders and brethren assembled in the Tabernacle, which was completely crowded. After the usual introductory exercises, President Young preached several sermons on various subjects, the Holy Ghost resting upon him in great power, while he revealed some of the precious things of the kingdom." (Deseret News, April 17, 1852; See also Mill Star 14:356).

I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal.

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken --- He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. .

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:58 pm

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 9 1852; Quoting Brigham Young.
Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body & brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit & formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don"t know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father & not by the Holy Ghost.
Journal of Hosea Stout, Vol. 2:435; Friday, April 9th, 1852.
Another meeting this evening. President B. Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body, etc. More hereafter.
Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 10, 1852; Quoting Heber C. Kimball.
Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Savior. Brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the Kingdom was his God, which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.
Journal of Samuel H. Rogers, Vol. 1:179; BYU Special Collections, Mss 1134; April 16, 1852. Spelling as in the original.
Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was heled (sp. held) in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial boddy (sp. body) when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave (sp. Eve) was allso (sp. also) a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the onley (sp. only) God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother. The argument that he used to shoe that Christ was not begotten by the holy gost, was a caution to the Elders that when they should go to preach the Gospel, to be careful how they laid their hands on the sisters, for the reseption (sp. reception) of the holy Gost, (sp. Ghost) lest the holy Gost (sp. Ghost) should get them with Child and that it would be laid to them
Delivered in the Tabernacle, SLC; President Brigham Young; August 8, 1852. Journal of Discourses 3:90;
There is only one gospel sermon, recollect, brethren and sisters, and the time that is required to preach it is from the day of the fall, or from the day when Adam and his wife Eve came here upon this planet, and from that time until Jesus Christ has subdued the last enemy, which is death, and put all things under his feet, and wound up all things pertaining to this earth. Then the gospel will have been preached, and brought up and presented, and the effects thereof, to the Father.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:33 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:41 am
In the King Follet discourse, Joseph says that Jesus said he only did what he saw the Father do. King who? Is he a latter-day prophet, or even an anointed GA, having the gift of prophecy?
And what is that. He laid his life down and took it up again. What Father is Jesus referring to? Can't be Adam because if Adam was somewhere else being a Savior somewhere, and had been resurrected, he sure as heck wouldn't be coming back to this earth and eating forbidden fruit, dying and being resurrected again. That would be utter nonsense, because we know that once a spirit and body is reunited they cannot be separated ever again. So the Father has to be someone that hadn't been on any planet as Adam or Jesus. Careful now, you have to think this through to understand it.
Joseph even says that the scriptures say that. Where? After 14 years of teaching Priesthood it should be a piece of cake to find.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:39 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:43 am
I have spoken the truth. I have received it from the writings of the Lord's anointed, from the testimonies of true messengers from the Father.
And just when did God stop anointing men to be his prophet(s)? Or do prophets no longer exist? Are there no true messengers today? If so, you're in the wrong century.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:45 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:11 am
You deny the Lord's anointed. Oh, you mean the one's of today? Our current prophet and his councilors? Our more modern messengers from Father? These anointed?
And now, do you even deny the scriptures? What scriptures? The DOJ or sermons from over 100 years ago that are only the opinions of man? Again, what scriptures have you posted that I have could even deny? BTW, anything other than canon isn't scripture. Everyone knows this fact.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:08 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:45 pm
Do you believe it?
Mormon 9:11,12
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man. SEE: Mosiah 15:1-5


The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob...is...Jehovah.

It is Jehovah that created Adam. So the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob cannot or is not Adam.

Exodus 6:3
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.


This puts a kink in your theory. Unless you claim the bible and the Book of Mormon, both, to be false.

God The Father is not Adam. How many times must this fact be proven to you?

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:13 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:55 pm
However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone.
When did you ever begin? Quotes from sermons are not scripture. Everyone knows this fact.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:14 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:58 pm
Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 9 1852; Quoting Brigham Young.
Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body & brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit & formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don"t know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father & not by the Holy Ghost.

Journal of Hosea Stout, Vol. 2:435; Friday, April 9th, 1852.
Another meeting this evening. President B. Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body, etc. More hereafter.
Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 10, 1852; Quoting Heber C. Kimball.
Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Savior. Brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the Kingdom was his God, which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam.
Journal of Samuel H. Rogers, Vol. 1:179; BYU Special Collections, Mss 1134; April 16, 1852. Spelling as in the original.
Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was heled (sp. held) in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial boddy (sp. body) when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave (sp. Eve) was allso (sp. also) a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the onley (sp. only) God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother. The argument that he used to shoe that Christ was not begotten by the holy gost, was a caution to the Elders that when they should go to preach the Gospel, to be careful how they laid their hands on the sisters, for the reseption (sp. reception) of the holy Gost, (sp. Ghost) lest the holy Gost (sp. Ghost) should get them with Child and that it would be laid to them
Delivered in the Tabernacle, SLC; President Brigham Young; August 8, 1852. Journal of Discourses 3:90;
There is only one gospel sermon, recollect, brethren and sisters, and the time that is required to preach it is from the day of the fall, or from the day when Adam and his wife Eve came here upon this planet, and from that time until Jesus Christ has subdued the last enemy, which is death, and put all things under his feet, and wound up all things pertaining to this earth. Then the gospel will have been preached, and brought up and presented, and the effects thereof, to the Father.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:35 am

Article by William W. Phelps, Messenger and Advocate, Vol. 1, No. 9, p. 130; June 1835.
New light is occasionally bursted into our minds, of the sacred scriptures, for which I am truly thankful. We shall by
and by learn that we were with God in another world, before the foundation of the world, and had our agency; that we
came into this world and have our agency, in order that we may prepare ourselves for a kingdom of glory; become
archangels, even the sons of God where the man is neither without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord:
A consummation of glory, and happiness, and perfection so greatly to be wished, that I would not miss of it for the fame
of ten worlds.
History of the Church, 6:51, Joseph Smith, Sunday, October 8th 1843; TPJS, p. 325.
Spirits can only be revealed in flaming fire or glory. Angels have advanced further, their light and glory being
tabernacled; and hence they appear in bodily shape. The spirits of just men are made ministering servants to those who
are sealed unto life eternal, and it is through them that the sealing power comes down.

Patriarch Adams is now one of the spirits of the just men made perfect; and if revealed now, must be revealed in fire;
and the glory could not be endured. Jesus showed Himself to His disciples, and they thought it was His spirit, and they
were afraid to approach His spirit. Angels have advanced higher in knowledge and power than spirits.
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, May 6, 1833.
For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fullness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father;
therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the abeginning
with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the
same, and are the church of the Firstborn. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even
the Spirit of truth; And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And
whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning. The Spirit
of atruth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth,
yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his
commandments receiveth btruth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Man was also in the
beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth
is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there
is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from
the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not
the alight is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably
connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. The elements are the
tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall
destroy that temple. The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. Light and truth forsake
that evil one. Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men
became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and
truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers. But I have
commanded you to bring up your children in blight and truth.
Historian"s Office Journal, p. 106; Church Archives under date and page given. CR/100/1/Reel #1. [Note: The words in
parenthesis are transcribed Pitman shorthand entries that I am sure of the transcription. Portions of words in brackets
are filled out as context seems to intend. Shorthand entries I could not transcribe are indicated by (sh). Once in the
text I have (s) because the shorthand indicated merely the letter s. It should not be considered a mistake in typing (s)
instead of (sh). It is not a short-form either for a word I could fit into the context or one with which I am familiar.
The blank space after the first time the word Adam appears is in the original. Typed as in the original with no
punctuation or capitalization supplied.]

Sunday 14 March 1852 * * * * 11 am WT Appleby O Pratt (present) 2 pm W W. OP. (and) H C K (present) * * * (At) 4 p m
BY, HCK, WR OP WW GAS TB EH DH Wells TOA. WWO. (met) (in) (the) (temple) rooms (and) prayed T B. O Pratt (sh) mouths
conversed about O Pratt"s discourse (in) (the) endowment rooms yesterday B Y rolled out rev.n (upon) rev.n (in) regard
(to) (the) crea(tion).n (sic) (of) (the) world Adam came (to) (the) E[arth] when (he) assisted (to) form (it) (sh) (he)
then partook (of) (the) fruits (of) (the) E[arth] (and) Became Earthy (and) (they) (which) are (the) (s) (after) (sh)
rece[ive] our resurrected bodies (and) (shall) (all) (have) (the) priv[ilege] (of) going (as) Adam"s form (an) E[arth]
(and) do likewise
The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Arise, and go down to the apotter’s house, and there I will cause
thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the
vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to
the potter to make it. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this
apotter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At
what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to apull down, and to destroy
it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, aturn from their evil, I will brepent of the evil that I thought to
do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant
it; If it do aevil in my sight, that it bobey not my voice, then I will crepent of the dgood, wherewith I said I would
benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith
the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way,
and make your ways and your doings good. And they said, There is no ahope: but we will bwalk after our own devices,
and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Therefore thus saith the Lord; Ask ye now among the
heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. Will a man leave the snow
of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be
forsaken? Because my people hath aforgotten me, they have burned incense to bvanity, and they have caused them to
stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in cpaths, in a way not cast up; To make their land adesolate, and
a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and bwag his head. I will scatter them as with
an aeast wind before the enemy; I will shew them the bback, and not cthe face, in the day of their calamity. Then said
they, Come, and let us adevise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from
the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of
his words. Give heed to me, O Lord, and hearken to the voice of them that contend with me. Shall evil be recompensed
for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn
away thy wrath from them. Therefore deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of
the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children, and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let
their young men be slain by the sword in battle. Let a cry be heard from their houses, when thou shalt bring a troop
suddenly upon them: for they have digged a pit to take me, and hid snares for my feet. Yet, Lord, thou knowest all
their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let
them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.
Journal of Wilford Woodruff; April 9 1852; Quoting Brigham Young.
Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came
with his Celestial body & brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a
Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit & formed
the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child it was by the Father and in no
other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don"t know that Jesus Christ
our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or
salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father & not by the Holy Ghost.

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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:47 am

Brigham Young, Jr. "Journal", Apr 4, 1897 - Feb 2, 1899 Journal, Volume 30: page 107. Church Historical Dept, Ms/f/326. Dec 16th 1897.
Salt Lake City Thurs Dec 16th 1897

Meeting at 11 am in Temple

Pres W. Geo Q Jos F S. L.S. F D R B Y Jno H S. Geo T. H J G A Lund present. Question on ceremony of marriage sealing. Couples who have never had their endowments; do their children need to be sealed to them in the Temple when they come to have their endowments. Answer No. It is all done. Adam is our father and God and no use to discuss it with Josephites or any one else. Gave in my report on Bluff, that city will be maintained for the present; . . .
Truths are taken away due to disbelief and iniquity
W. H. Smart Diary, 1901-1902 Bk; p. 94; 28 July 1901.
At Wasatch Stake MIA Conference, remarks of Sister and President Joseph F. Smith: "Sister Smith bore a very strong testimony to the divinity of the principle of plural marriage. Pres. Smith endorsed it. He said it was taken away from the people--like the law of consecration--because the saints rejected it, and neither would be restored until there is a people prepared to live them. Anyone should beware that casts slurs upon the birth of those born under this covenant. Also that men who will not appreciate their wives and children and provide for them will lose them."
Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, Vol II: 740-741; June 11th, 1892. [See also Typescript Copy, pp. 43-44. See also Letter of Bishop Edward Bunker, Jr. to Joseph F. Smith, Feb 9, 1902.]
St. George June 11th, 92 Attended the High Council at which Pres Woodruff presided. G. Q. Cannon was present also and a large body of the leading men of this Stake. Br Edward Bunker Sen. and others of Bunkerville, Nevada, had been advancing false doctrine. One item was, that he, Bunker, thought it was right to worship the intelligence that was in God the Eternal Father and not God, who made all things by the power of his Word. And another was that Adam was made of the dust of the earth contained in the Garden of Eden. He had also advanced some erroneous ideas concerning the resurrection. Pres Woodruff and Cannon showed in a very plain manner that it was right to Worship the true, and the Living God, and Him only, and not the intelligence that dwelt in Him; that His Son Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, never taught such doctrine, but always to worship my Father which is in Heaven, and to always pray to the Father in the name of his Son Jesus Christ. Showed that Adam was an immortal being when he came to this earth and was made the same as all other men and Gods are made; and that the seed of man was of the dust of the earth, and that the continuation of the seeds in a glorified state was Eternal Lives. And after this Mortal tabernacle had crumbled to dust in the grave, that God would, in the time of the resurrection by his Matchless Power, bring together again in the form of a glorified and an immortal to the Righteous to dwell with Him forever. Also that those that were not righteous would also be resurrected, but not with a glorified body. Said it was not wisdom for the Elders to contend about such matters and things they did not understand. And not to teach such things to the children in the Sunday Schools; they could not comprehend them. Pres Woodruff spoke of the false doctrine taught by Amasa Lyman some years ago, viz, that the Atoning blood of Jesus Christ was of no more efficacy than the blood of any other man or that of a Bullock &c. Such false ideas had led him to apostasy and finally out of the church. Also of the false teachings of the late Orson Pratt, one of the Twelve, arguing that every particle of matter which composed the elements had all the attributes of the Deity in it, and that they, i.e., the particles of Matter, by some unaccountable way united together and became God. Pres Woodruff told of Orson"s unyielding stubbornness, and of upbraiding the Twelve for not being manly, for not declaring their views the way he looked at it, and branding them as cowards &c &c. Spoke of the firmness of Pres Young in correcting Orson Pratt and setting him aright; Of Orson wishing to resign his position in the Quorum; of Pres. Young saying "No you wont Orson, I"ll rub your ears until I get you right;" and had it not been for firmness of Pres Young in maintaining the right, and assiduously laboring and showing him his gross errors, Orson would have been out of the Church. Showed the folly of some men because they cannot look up and prove by the Bible the glorious Revelations that God has given they receive them doubtfully. Showed that God had, and would yet, reveal many glorious things that men could not prove, and Search out of the old Bible. Pres Cannon said that it was not necessary that we should or endorse the doctrine that some men taught that Adam was the Father of Jesus Christ. Counsel was given for the Elders to teach that which they knew, not that which they did not. The Meeting was in session over three hours, and much good counsel was given to the Elders present on these things by Pres Woodruff and Cannon. To me it was a feast for I had been pondering over some of these things of late.

Hidingbehindmyhandle
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Hidingbehindmyhandle » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:33 am

These are for a couple of my "friends".
“When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought,
[then] I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 373).
“…the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn
thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as
the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 137).

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LDS Anarchist
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby LDS Anarchist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:00 pm

freedomforall wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:08 am
God The Father is not Adam. How many times must this fact be proven to you?
This is what you two have been arguing about back and forth this whole time? About the Adam-God theory? I thought that theory was put to rest like 50 years ago!

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby sandman45 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:29 pm

freedomforall wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:34 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:10 pm
freedomforall wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:59 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:26 pm
I do have a question for you though. Do you believe Songs of Solomon are scripture?
Holy Script, or writings from those God calls to write is scripture to be heeded.
Writings not in line with Holy Writ are not considered scripture that one can take to the bank.
This is what makes my head spin trying to figure it all out. I'm really not trying to argue. We both keep talking in circles it seems and I wish I could communicate better so you could see what is such a dilemma to me.
Almost every time you respond to me, your example seems to illustrate my concerns in my mind.

This is what I hear in my mind when I read the response above...

Holy Script, or writings from those God calls to write is scripture to be heeded.
Writings not in line with writings from those God calls to write (which is scripture) are not considered scripture that one can take to the bank.

The reason being is that Holy Writ in my mind has become subjective. Who decided what is Holy Writ? I know, I know, you'll say God did. But where did God say that? Where did God say Songs of Solomon is Holy Writ, or Matthew is Holy Writ, or Alma is Holy Writ?
Click on link: Scriptures, Value of

Scriptures, Study of

Did I mention to read the word so you'll get your answer?

Joseph Smith had revelations given to him, we know as the Doctrine and Covenants.

The bible was written centuries ago, yet we gain a lot of God's word in it.

Men years and years ago wrote down information on plates, then Moroni sealed them up to God. Then what did God do? He had JS go to the hill and retrieve them and translate the words into English. Then the plates were returned to God. Do you suppose if the books, known as the Book of Mormon, were of little importance, God would put JS and others through hell for nothing ?

The bible has had many plain and precious parts removed by man for whatever reason. The Book of Mormon contains those plain and precious parts.

1 Nephi 13:32,34
32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen.
34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

So even God wants us to have Holy Writ.
Would be sweet if all of Joseph's writings were canonized. They were way more inspired than McKonkies opinions he taught in general conference and his books.

Same with Brigham his were truth and yet the people rejected many new revelations a living prophet Revealed at that time and people still ridicule and mock the truth he taught. Many if not all of the JOD were general conference talks which our current day we are told they are as good as scripture. Yet the JOS are not now?

Lots of contradictions can't wait for the one mighty and strong to lead us out of Babylon and start building a "literal" Zion

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sandman45
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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby sandman45 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:45 pm

LDS Anarchist wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:00 pm
freedomforall wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:08 am
God The Father is not Adam. How many times must this fact be proven to you?
This is what you two have been arguing about back and forth this whole time? About the Adam-God theory? I thought that theory was put to rest like 50 years ago!
Yea it was but when you start reading more of Joseph's and Brigham writings it shows that both were teaching that Adam was God. Doesn't help when current leaders say contradicting things about earlier leaders too. It's fun to discuss because it was taught quite a bit. There were songs poems articles sermons etc


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