Mysteries of the Kingdom

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity,
and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth,
water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity.
Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before
my Father. The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of
man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply.
The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to
give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.
History of the Church, Vol 3, p 387
Joseph Smith's Teaching's p 166

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I will now turn linguist. There are many things in the Bible which do
not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to
me.

I will criticize a little further. There has been much said about the
word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it, describing
it to be a burning lake of fire and brimstone. But what is hell? It is
another modern term, and is taken from hades. I'll hunt after hades as Pat
did for the woodchuck.

Hades, the Greek, or Shaole, the Hebrew' these two significations
mean a world of spirits. Hades, Shaole, paradise, spirits in prison, are
all one: it is a world of spirits.

The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits
until the resurrection. "I do not think so," says one. If you will go to
my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.
History of the Curch Vol 5, p425
Joseph Smith's Teachings p184-186

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If we take the lessons from the last two quotes above.
What is the state of the being that is in the world of spirits?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

A misunderstanding cause by a mistranslation
cleared up by Joseph Smith

I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much
said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the
thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James'
translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a
modern word it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made
use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a
needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is
nothing in the original word in Greek froze which this was taken that
signifies paradise; but it was This day thou shalt be with me in the
world of spirits' then I will teach you all about it and answer your
inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits
(spirits in prison, I Peter, 3rd chap., 19th verse), so that they who
would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the
earth, etc.
History of the Church, Vol 5, p424
Joseph smith's Teachings p166-167

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If I say "My Son Tom"
is Tom Superior or Subordinate to me.
Tom is subordinate to me - not because of the "My" but because of the "Son"
If I say "My Father Ron"
is Ron Superior or Subordinate to me.
Ron is superior to me - not because of the "My" but because of the "Father"
In both cases, the "My" is just narrowing down which Son or Father.

such is the case when Jesus refers to Michael as "my archangel".
my does not determine superior or subordinate. but archangel
clearly establishes superiority, "my superior" - more accurately
"my king", Jesus calls Michael "my King"

that is what the language, the words says.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Lyrics Hie to Kolob

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
“No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872
Music: English melody, arr. Ralph Vaughan Williams, 1872–1958, from the English Hymnal. Used by permission of the Oxford University Press. Making copies without written permission of the copyright owner is prohibited.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Lyrics Oh My Father

1. O my Father, thou that dwellest
In the high and glorious place,
When shall I regain thy presence
And again behold thy face?
In thy holy habitation,
Did my spirit once reside?
In my first primeval childhood
Was I nurtured near thy side?

2. For a wise and glorious purpose
Thou hast placed me here on earth
And withheld the recollection
Of my former friends and birth;
Yet ofttimes a secret something
Whispered, “You’re a stranger here,”
And I felt that I had wandered
From a more exalted sphere.

3. I had learned to call thee Father,
Thru thy Spirit from on high,
But, until the key of knowledge
Was restored, I knew not why.
In the heav’ns are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me I’ve a mother there.

4. When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I’ve completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804–1887
Music: James McGranahan, 1840–1907

[freedomforall]

Except that the brother of Jared saw the spirit body of Jehovah, who then come down and took upon himself a mortal body.

I've said that very thing, before the atonement, he had a spirit body Christ had a body of f/b the day of his birth!
while Adam has a body of flesh and bones, hence his title the archangle.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, saw the Father and the Son as resurrected beings. Much different.

Well of course, I already said that Adam had a body of flesh and bones even before the atonement and Christ received his after. And if I remember correctly, the first vision did happen after the atonement. Adam had a body of flesh and bones but was not resurrected until after Jesus came forth at his resurrection. Thus Adam regained his body after Jesus...Jesus was the very first person resurrected from the time of Adam until Jesus rose. To deny this is to deny the Book of Mormon.

So what JS said really doesn't matter.

Really? If what JS says does not match scripture, scripture takes precedence. Otherwise, why did God have JS translate the plates into English, a language we can understand, having a message God wanted us to have and to learn? JS should have believed the very plates he was chosen for to translate. To deny this is to deny the Book of Mormon as the word of God.

The spirit world consists of two different places, ie, Spirit Prison, which is for those who are assigned to Satan's realm, and Paradise, which is reserved for the righteous assigned to The Father and Christ.

They are not two different places, Joseph went back to the original Greek version of the bible. He says there is no word in that version that translate to Paradise. There is only one place we go after death. It has been called many things, Prison, Paradise, Hades, Shoal, hell. The correct translation is Spirit world but Joseph shows he prefers World of Spirits (See Joseph Smith's Teachings compiled by Edwin F. Parry) Do you deny the Book of Mormon as the word of God?

Alma 40:12-14
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

It matters not what you say, there are two separate and different places spirits go to until the resurrection. Alma, a prophet of God, declared it way before JS was ever a twinkle in his dad's eye. It's in the Book! Look it up. Alma chaps 40-42

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Christ had a body of f/b the day of his birth!

No, he had a body of flesh and blood, there is a difference
After his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bones
as Adam already had, flesh and bones, no blood.

Adam had a body of flesh and bones but was not resurrected until after Jesus came forth at his resurrection. Thus Adam regained his body after Jesus...Jesus was the very first person resurrected from the time of Adam until Jesus rose. To deny this is to deny the Book of Mormon.

Yes, he had a body of flesh and bones, only acquirable through resurrection, mortal bodies are flesh and blood.

Do you deny the Book of Mormon as the word of God?

How dare you insinuate I don't, I have quoted the BofM many times.

Alma 40:12-14

I've addressed this.

[freedomforall]

Alma 40:12-14
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

while spirit Prison and Spirit Paradise are both really the World of Spirits, outer darkness is not the same place.

All who sin are subject to both physical and spiritual death. They all go to the world of Spirits. But death only has power over those who are not redeemed, brought out of the World of Spirits.
The World of Spirits is on this earth, but when it is Celestialized, those not redeemed (those that do not have a body that allows them to reside in heaven) will be cast of the earth into outer darkness.

I prefer to believe what the Book of Mormon teaches. Two different places prior to the resurrection, period.

In D&C 76 we read that the only one's that receive the second death are Sons of Perdition. See verses 32,37 and 44.

[freedomforall]

Christ had a body of f/b the day of his birth!

No, he had a body of flesh and blood, there is a difference
After his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bones. Why are you confusing the issue? I told you Christ had a body of flesh and bones the day of his birth. Were you born without one? Christ was human, was tempted as you and I to sin, suffered pain like we do. The resurrection only brought about his immortal body, the same body he had all his life, only without blood. Please do not contradict.
as Adam already had, flesh and bones, no blood.

Adam had a body of flesh and bones but was not resurrected until after Jesus came forth at his resurrection. Thus Adam regained his body after Jesus...Jesus was the very first person resurrected from the time of Adam until Jesus rose. To deny this is to deny the Book of Mormon.

Yes, he had a body of flesh and bones, only acquirable through resurrection, mortal bodies are flesh and blood.

Do you deny the Book of Mormon as the word of God?

How dare you insinuate I don't, I have quoted the BofM many times.

Alma 40:12-14

I've addressed this.

Reading it and believing it are two different things, it is time to start believing it. You have contradicted almost everything I have written, including revealed scripture. You post your opinion and will not acknowledge that I am just as capable of teaching doctrine. Yours is not the only doctrine out there.
Even at least two other forum members have noticed that you do not answer their questions but are quick to either dodge them or replace answers with other questions. This is not how a conversation is run. Why on earth do you have to override what others have to say or avoid reading scriptures, provided as evidence of fact, that are so pertinent to God's teachings and believed by the reader?
I was trying to have a good discussion with you, but I find it to be a one sided proposition. What are you afraid of?

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Alma 40:12-14
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

while spirit Prison and Spirit Paradise are both really the World of Spirits, outer darkness is not the same place.

All who sin are subject to both physical and spiritual death. They all go to the world of Spirits. But death only has power over those who are not redeemed, brought out of the World of Spirits.
The World of Spirits is on this earth, but when it is Celestialized, those not redeemed (those that do not have a body that allows them to reside in heaven) will be cast of the earth into outer darkness.

I prefer to believe what the Book of Mormon teaches. Two different places prior to the resurrection, period.

In D&C 76 we read that the only one's that receive the second death are Sons of Perdition. See verses 32,37 and 44.

These quotes do indeed speak of two places, Paradise and outer darkness - not spirit prison.
And outer darkness is not on this earth but spirit prison/paradise is.

The devil and his followers are in spirit prison/world of spirits right now and because they are also on this world they have access to us.
when this world returns to the celestial realm where it came from, Satan and his followers will not be able to withstand the glory and will be cast off, but not to another world.Into the outer darkness between worlds. The places where stars don't shine, places of no glory.

[freedomforall]

- not spirit prison.
And outer darkness is not on this earth but spirit prison/paradise is.

The devil and his followers are in spirit prison/world of spirits right now and because they are also on this world they have access to us.

Spirits in Prison

as prisoners are gathered in the pit, Isa. 24:22.

thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth, Isa. 49:9 (1 Ne. 21:9).

opening of the prison to them that are bound, Isa. 61:1 (D&C 138:42).

preach deliverance to the captives, Luke 4:18.

dead shall hear … the Son, John 5:25.

preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:19.

gospel preached also to them that are dead, 1 Pet. 4:6.

hell must deliver up its captive spirits, 2 Ne. 9:12.

spirits … cast out into outer darkness, Alma 40:13.

state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, Alma 40:14.

residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness, D&C 38:5.

spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, D&C 76:73.

redeem them out of their prison, D&C 128:22.

Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, D&C 138:28.

Lord went not in person among the wicked, D&C 138:29 (138:20).

among those who are in darkness … in the great world of the spirits, D&C 138:57.

a prison have I prepared for them, Moses 7:38.

spirits … in prison came forth, Moses 7:57.

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Paradise, Paradisiacal

To day shalt thou be with me in paradise, Luke 23:43.

he was caught up into paradise, 2 Cor. 12:4.

tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise, Rev. 2:7.

paradise of God must deliver up the spirits, 2 Ne. 9:13.

state of happiness, which is called paradise, Alma 40:12.

all gone to the paradise of God, save it were the three, 4 Ne. 1:14.

I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, Moro. 10:34.

figurative expressions … in describing heaven, the paradise of God, D&C 77:2.

awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, D&C 138:16.

Redeemer spent his time … in the world of spirits, instructing, D&C 138:36.
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Hell

shall burn unto the lowest hell, Deut. 32:22.

wicked shall be turned into hell, Ps. 9:17.

thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, Ps. 16:10 (Acts 2:27, 31).

delivered my soul from the lowest hell, Ps. 86:13.

Hell and destruction are never full, Prov. 27:20.

Hell from beneath is moved for thee, Isa. 14:9 (2 Ne. 24:9).

thou shalt be brought down to hell, Isa. 14:15.

didst debase thyself even unto hell, Isa. 57:9.

shall speak to him out of the midst of hell, Ezek. 32:21.

out of the belly of hell cried I, Jonah 2:2.

say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire, Matt. 5:22 (3 Ne. 12:22).

not that thy whole body should be cast into hell, Matt. 5:29 (18:9; Mark 9:43; 3 Ne. 12:30).

fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, Matt. 10:28 (Luke 12:5).

Capernaum … shalt be brought down to hell, Matt. 11:23 (Luke 10:15).

gates of hell shall not prevail against it, Matt. 16:18 (D&C 10:69; 21:6; 98:22).

Depart … into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil, Matt. 25:41 (D&C 29:28).

go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, Mark 9:43 (Isa. 66:24; Mosiah 2:38; D&C 43:33).

in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, Luke 16:23 (D&C 104:18).

cast them down to hell, and delivered them, 2 Pet. 2:4.

I … have the keys of hell, Rev. 1:18.

sat on him was Death, and Hell followed, Rev. 6:8.

cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone, Rev. 19:20 (Jacob 6:10; D&C 63:17; 76:36).

death and hell delivered up the dead, Rev. 20:13.

lake which burneth … which is the second death, Rev. 21:8 (Hel. 14:19; D&C 76:37).

river … the depths thereof are the depths of hell, 1 Ne. 12:16.

that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell, 1 Ne. 14:3.

that awful hell, which … was prepared for the wicked, 1 Ne. 15:29 (D&C 29:38; Moses 6:29).

hell … devil is the preparator of it, 1 Ne. 15:35.

awake … from the sleep of hell, 2 Ne. 1:13.

giveth … the devil power … to bring you down to hell, 2 Ne. 2:29.

that monster, death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:10.

torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, 2 Ne. 9:16 (Mosiah 3:27).

liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell, 2 Ne. 9:34.

wo be unto them … they shall be thrust down to hell, 2 Ne. 28:15.

devil … leadeth them away carefully down to hell, 2 Ne. 28:21.

he hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 33:6.

loose yourselves from the pains of hell, Jacob 3:11.

encircled about by the … chains of hell, Alma 5:7.

this is what is meant by the chains of hell, Alma 12:11 (13:30; D&C 123:8; Moses 7:57).

thousands … has he loosed from the pains of hell, Alma 26:13.

doth speedily drag them down to hell, Alma 30:60 (D&C 10:26).

awful hell that awaits to receive such murderers, Alma 54:7.

an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell, Hel. 6:28.

gates of hell stand open to receive, 3 Ne. 11:40.

hewn down and cast into the fire, 3 Ne. 27:11.

to dwell with the damned souls in hell, Morm. 9:4.

danger of death, hell, and an endless torment, Moro. 8:21.

These are they who are thrust down to hell, D&C 76:84.

devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, D&C 88:113.

generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell, D&C 121:23.

hell shall rage against thee, D&C 122:1.

Redeemer and Deliverer from death and … hell, D&C 138:23.

he saw the bitterness of hell, Moses 1:20.
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Hell

An English translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient. Gehenna, or Gehenna of fire, is the Greek equivalent of the “valley of Hinnom,” a deep glen of Jerusalem where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch (2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 19:2–6). It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city (2 Kgs. 23:10) and in that way became symbolic of the place of torment (Matt. 5:22, 29–30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). Expressions about “hell-fire” are probably due to the impression produced on men’s minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning and are figurative of the torment of those who willfully disobey God.

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the Resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76:84–85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9:10–12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6:28; Moro. 8:13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19:4–12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.

On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire—a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2:4; D&C 29:38; 88:113). This kind of hell, which is after the Resurrection and Judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain.
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Paradise

A Persian word meaning “a garden.” It is not found in the Old Testament. In the New Testament it occurs in Luke 23:43, 2 Cor. 12:4, and Rev. 2:7. See also 2 Ne. 9:13; Alma 40:12, 14; 4 Ne. 1:14; Moro. 10:34; D&C 77:2, 5; A of F 1:10. Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. However, the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word, especially in the Bible. For example, when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross, “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read, “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5:424–25). Possibly 2 Cor. 12:4 should also not use “paradise” in the sense of meaning the spirit world, as much as meaning the celestial kingdom. The “paradisiacal glory” of A of F 1:10 refers to the glorified millennial state of the earth rather than the spirit world.
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[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity,
and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth,
water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity.
Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before
my Father. The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of
man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply.
The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to
give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.
History of the Church, Vol 3, p 387
Joseph Smith's Teaching's p 166

I will now turn linguist. There are many things in the Bible which do
not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to
me.
I will criticize a little further. There has been much said about the
word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it, describing
it to be a burning lake of fire and brimstone. But what is hell? It is
another modern term, and is taken from hades. I'll hunt after hades as Pat
did for the woodchuck.
Hades, the Greek, or Shaole, the Hebrew' these two significations
mean a world of spirits. Hades, Shaole, paradise, spirits in prison, are
all one: it is a world of spirits.
The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits
until the resurrection. "I do not think so," says one. If you will go to
my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.
History of the Curch Vol 5, p425
Joseph Smith's Teachings p184-186

I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much
said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the
thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James'
translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a
modern word it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made
use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a
needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is
nothing in the original word in Greek froze which this was taken that
signifies paradise; but it was This day thou shalt be with me in the
world of spirits' then I will teach you all about it and answer your
inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits
(spirits in prison, I Peter, 3rd chap., 19th verse), so that they who
would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the
earth, etc.
History of the Church, Vol 5, p424
Joseph smith's Teachings p166-167

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Before the Book of Mormon, we had the Bible.
So why were we given the Book of Mormon?
Because things are missing from the Bible
and to make things in the Bible more clear.
We were Given Abraham and Moses, why.
Because things were missing from the Bible and BoM
and to make them more clear.
A large part of the revelations given to Joseph
came due to questions raised during the translation
of the BoM, Abraham and Moses to make them more
clear. A limited selection of these revelations,
the ones that would be most palatable to the
majority of the Church makes up the D&C.

I use Joseph's and Brigham's writings for what they
were intended, to make the Cannon of Scripture
more clear and provide what is missing.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Christ had a body of f/b the day of his birth!

No, he had a body of flesh and blood, there is a difference
After his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bones. Why are you confusing the issue? I told you Christ had a body of flesh and bones the day of his birth. Were you born without one? Christ was human, was tempted as you and I to sin, suffered pain like we do. The resurrection only brought about his immortal body, the same body he had all his life, only without blood. Please do not contradict.
as Adam already had, flesh and bones, no blood.

Adam had a body of flesh and bones but was not resurrected until after Jesus came forth at his resurrection. Thus Adam regained his body after Jesus...Jesus was the very first person resurrected from the time of Adam until Jesus rose. To deny this is to deny the Book of Mormon.

Yes, he had a body of flesh and bones, only acquirable through resurrection, mortal bodies are flesh and blood.

Do you deny the Book of Mormon as the word of God?

How dare you insinuate I don't, I have quoted the BofM many times.

Alma 40:12-14

I've addressed this.

Reading it and believing it are two different things, it is time to start believing it. You have contradicted almost everything I have written, including revealed scripture. You post your opinion and will not acknowledge that I am just as capable of teaching doctrine. Yours is not the only doctrine out there.
Even at least two other forum members have noticed that you do not answer their questions but are quick to either dodge them or replace answers with other questions. This is not how a conversation is run. Why on earth do you have to override what others have to say or avoid reading scriptures, provided as evidence of fact, that are so pertinent to God's teachings and believed by the reader?
I was trying to have a good discussion with you, but I find it to be a one sided proposition. What are you afraid of?

It is stunningly obvious that you do not know the difference in the two terms
"Body of flesh and bones"
"Body of flesh and blood"


"Body of flesh and bones" always refers to a resurrected being.

Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow blood, the life-giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal, subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in a remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegrate and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal.
Ensign Sept. 1978 First Presidency Message Absolute Truth By President Spencer W. Kimball

D&C 130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

"Body of flesh and blood" always refers to a mortal being.

Mosiah 7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

Ether 3
6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.
7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?
8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.
9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Mortal beings are quickened by blood.
Resurrected beings are quickened by the spirit and have no blood.

I am not confused. It is important to understand this issue, without that understanding the scriptures cannot reveal to you their meaning.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Alma 40:12-14
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

while spirit Prison and Spirit Paradise are both really the World of Spirits, outer darkness is not the same place.

All who sin are subject to both physical and spiritual death. They all go to the world of Spirits. But death only has power over those who are not redeemed, brought out of the World of Spirits.
The World of Spirits is on this earth, but when it is Celestialized, those not redeemed (those that do not have a body that allows them to reside in heaven) will be cast of the earth into outer darkness.

I prefer to believe what the Book of Mormon teaches. Two different places prior to the resurrection, period.

In D&C 76 we read that the only one's that receive the second death are Sons of Perdition. See verses 32,37 and 44.

Again, there are two different places. All who die go to the same place.
But perdition is not redeemed and will be cast out to outer darkness

It is totally stunning to me that you do not know many of these concepts.

Now wonder you will not believe what Joseph and Brigham taught, you don't understand what they taught
because you don't understand much of what you have read in the scriptures.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

There are plenty of canonized scriptures that teach us to look beyond the canonized scriptures. The quest for truth and unveiling mysteries need not be shrouded in fear. In my experience those who are led astray by false doctrine are usually the same who are struggling spiritually and looking for something to justify their lusts. I don't say that callously as that applies to people very dear to me.

I would also suggest that before we "look beyond the canonized scriptures", we understand what the canonized scriptures actually say.
I say this because I do not believe that the majority of the writings of Joseph and Brigham are beyond the canonized scriptures but actually clarify, explain, expound with a little bit of expand.

All the arguments I have seen on this list against the teachings of Joseph and Brigham demonstrate more of a lack of understanding of canonized scriptures than it does of their teachings.

I will repeat something I've said before, I use Joseph's and Brigham's teachings for which they were intended, to provide a better and deeper understanding of canonized scriptures.

[freedomforall]

I am not confused. It is important to understand this issue, without that understanding the scriptures cannot reveal to you their meaning. This is utter nonsense. Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Anyone knows that a mortal body comprises of flesh, bone and blood.
An immortal body consists of flesh, bone and no blood. So why the big deal?

Christ had a body of flesh and blood prior to his resurrection, this is a given. Upon his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bone without blood. This is also a given.

Nothing changed during the atonement because Christ bled from every pore proving he still had blood in a mortal body.

So, yes, it is a good thing to understand scriptures as revealed by the Holy Ghost, for scripture is of no private will of man.

I didn't attend the hair splitting convention. Sorry.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I am not confused. It is important to understand this issue, without that understanding the scriptures cannot reveal to you their meaning. This is utter nonsense. Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Anyone knows that a mortal body comprises of flesh, bone and blood.
An immortal body consists of flesh, bone and no blood. So why the big deal?

Christ had a body of flesh and blood prior to his resurrection, this is a given. Upon his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bone without blood. This is also a given.

Nothing changed during the atonement because Christ bled from every pore proving he still had blood in a mortal body.

So, yes, it is a good thing to understand scriptures as revealed by the Holy Ghost, for scripture is of no private will of man.

I didn't attend the hair splitting convention. Sorry.

Those two terms are like "morning of the first resurrection" it has a specific meaning
"body of flesh and bones" is a term which has a distinct and separate meaning that "body of flesh and blood"
If you don't understand these types of terms it is no wonder that you misunderstand the scriptures.

Do you not think that Joseph and Brigham new the scriptures better than most if not all. Proving them wrong using the scriptures is futile.


In section 79, Lucifer is called the son of the Morning, what does that mean. You need to understand the lexicon of the scriptures to know.

son of the morning, morning of the first resurrection, body of flesh and bones, body of flesh and blood - they are all terms in that lexicon with specific meanings.

One can not hope to prove ANYTHING without knowing what words actually mean.

[freedomforall]

All the arguments I have seen on this list against the teachings of Joseph and Brigham demonstrate more of a lack of understanding of canonized scriptures than it does of their teachings.

All except for yours, is this what you are implying?

What makes you think you have a monopoly on understanding canonized scripture?

Does Joseph and Brigham do your thinking for you?

Answer these: how is it that people in Adam's day lived to be between two hundred to over nine hundred years? The answer is in canon.

Was Adam sin free for over nine hundred years?

How old was Adam when he died?

[freedomforall]

I am not confused. It is important to understand this issue, without that understanding the scriptures cannot reveal to you their meaning. This is utter nonsense. Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Anyone knows that a mortal body comprises of flesh, bone and blood.
An immortal body consists of flesh, bone and no blood. So why the big deal?

Christ had a body of flesh and blood prior to his resurrection, this is a given. Upon his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bone without blood. This is also a given.

Nothing changed during the atonement because Christ bled from every pore proving he still had blood in a mortal body.

So, yes, it is a good thing to understand scriptures as revealed by the Holy Ghost, for scripture is of no private will of man.

I didn't attend the hair splitting convention. Sorry.

Those two terms are like "morning of the first resurrection" it has a specific meaning
"body of flesh and bones" is a term which has a distinct and separate meaning that "body of flesh and blood"
If you don't understand these types of terms it is no wonder that you misunderstand the scriptures.

Do you not think that Joseph and Brigham new the scriptures better than most if not all. Proving them wrong using the scriptures is futile.


In section 79, Lucifer is called the son of the Morning, what does that mean. You need to understand the lexicon of the scriptures to know.

son of the morning, morning of the first resurrection, body of flesh and bones, body of flesh and blood - they are all terms in that lexicon with specific meanings. None or this affects my salvation.

One can not hope to prove ANYTHING without knowing what words actually mean.

Do you have a monopoly on the understanding of scripture?
Is your knowledge of scripture better than most?
Do you see others knowledge as inferior to yours?

Why the put-downs and so much of an overbearing attitude of what you think you know?

Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I am not confused. It is important to understand this issue, without that understanding the scriptures cannot reveal to you their meaning. This is utter nonsense. Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Anyone knows that a mortal body comprises of flesh, bone and blood.
An immortal body consists of flesh, bone and no blood. So why the big deal?

Christ had a body of flesh and blood prior to his resurrection, this is a given. Upon his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bone without blood. This is also a given.

Nothing changed during the atonement because Christ bled from every pore proving he still had blood in a mortal body.

So, yes, it is a good thing to understand scriptures as revealed by the Holy Ghost, for scripture is of no private will of man.

I didn't attend the hair splitting convention. Sorry.

Those two terms are like "morning of the first resurrection" it has a specific meaning
"body of flesh and bones" is a term which has a distinct and separate meaning that "body of flesh and blood"
If you don't understand these types of terms it is no wonder that you misunderstand the scriptures.

Do you not think that Joseph and Brigham new the scriptures better than most if not all. Proving them wrong using the scriptures is futile.


In section 79, Lucifer is called the son of the Morning, what does that mean. You need to understand the lexicon of the scriptures to know.

son of the morning, morning of the first resurrection, body of flesh and bones, body of flesh and blood - they are all terms in that lexicon with specific meanings. None or this affects my salvation.

One can not hope to prove ANYTHING without knowing what words actually mean.

Do you have a monopoly on the understanding of scripture?
Is your knowledge of scripture better than most?
Do you see others knowledge as inferior to yours?

Why the put-downs and so much of an overbearing attitude of what you think you know?

Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Never said I did, clearly I've shown that I don't. That is why I turn to Joseph and Brigham, none better than them.
and I can say thet because I know the true identity of Joseph Smith.

[freedomforall]

Anyone knows that a mortal body comprises of flesh, bone and blood.
An immortal body consists of flesh, bone and no blood. So why the big deal?

Christ had a body of flesh and blood prior to his resurrection, this is a given. Upon his resurrection, he had a body of flesh and bone without blood. This is also a given.

Nothing changed during the atonement because Christ bled from every pore proving he still had blood in a mortal body.

So, yes, it is a good thing to understand scriptures as revealed by the Holy Ghost, for scripture is of no private will of man.

I didn't attend the hair splitting convention. Sorry.

Those two terms are like "morning of the first resurrection" it has a specific meaning
"body of flesh and bones" is a term which has a distinct and separate meaning that "body of flesh and blood"
If you don't understand these types of terms it is no wonder that you misunderstand the scriptures.

Do you not think that Joseph and Brigham new the scriptures better than most if not all. Proving them wrong using the scriptures is futile.


In section 79, Lucifer is called the son of the Morning, what does that mean. You need to understand the lexicon of the scriptures to know.

son of the morning, morning of the first resurrection, body of flesh and bones, body of flesh and blood - they are all terms in that lexicon with specific meanings. None or this affects my salvation.

One can not hope to prove ANYTHING without knowing what words actually mean.

Do you have a monopoly on the understanding of scripture?
Is your knowledge of scripture better than most?
Do you see others knowledge as inferior to yours?

Why the put-downs and so much of an overbearing attitude of what you think you know?

Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Never said I did, clearly I've shown that I don't. That is why I turn to Joseph and Brigham, none better than them. Wrong, dead wrong. Jesus is the best prophet to have ever lived. And he didn't sin even once. Now tell me that JS is better than Jesus.
and I can say thet because I know the true identity of Joseph Smith. I highly doubt it, but thanks for proving my point so eloquently, that of you feeling more important than others.

I'm sorry. He isn't an idol for me to worry about. If I recall, the Savior is Jesus Christ, my older brother and redeemer, not JS.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Those two terms are like "morning of the first resurrection" it has a specific meaning
"body of flesh and bones" is a term which has a distinct and separate meaning that "body of flesh and blood"
If you don't understand these types of terms it is no wonder that you misunderstand the scriptures.

Do you not think that Joseph and Brigham new the scriptures better than most if not all. Proving them wrong using the scriptures is futile.


In section 79, Lucifer is called the son of the Morning, what does that mean. You need to understand the lexicon of the scriptures to know.

son of the morning, morning of the first resurrection, body of flesh and bones, body of flesh and blood - they are all terms in that lexicon with specific meanings. None or this affects my salvation.

One can not hope to prove ANYTHING without knowing what words actually mean.

Do you have a monopoly on the understanding of scripture?
Is your knowledge of scripture better than most?
Do you see others knowledge as inferior to yours?

Why the put-downs and so much of an overbearing attitude of what you think you know?

Scriptures do not reveal their own meaning, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals truth of the scripture. So I hope you are not insinuating I have been getting the wrong interpretation for over forty years.

Never said I did, clearly I've shown that I don't. That is why I turn to Joseph and Brigham, none better than them. Wrong, dead wrong. Jesus is the best prophet to have ever lived. And he didn't sin even once. Now tell me that JS is better than Jesus.
and I can say thet because I know the true identity of Joseph Smith. I highly doubt it, but thanks for proving my point so eloquently, that of you feeling more important than others.

I'm sorry. He isn't an idol for me to worry about. If I recall, the Savior is Jesus Christ, my older brother and redeemer, not JS.

I don't have any written words of Christ on these topics so Joseph's and Brigham's words are the best available.

I never said I was better, I have paid attention tho what hase been said about Joseph in the D&C
and I have paid attention to what Joseph has said about himself, therefore I know who he is.
Just as I have paid attention enough to know the identities of other deities referenced in the scriptures.

I have never said that I understand beter than anyone else or that I'm the only one that does.
and I have no Idols