Mysteries of the Kingdom

[freedomforall]

why?

Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.

Cain will rule over Lucifer due to the fact that Cain has a body and Lucifer does not.

Moses 5
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Moses 5:30
30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

why?

Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.

This does not say anything about why you say spiritual Death does not mean the loss of the Spirit Body.
And you are so into the scriptures, why no references

Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

This says we become Christ's Sons and Daughters, in what way? Do we become his spirit Children?

D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

This would seem to indicate we get a spirit body back. How can you get it back if you didn't lose it.?

And d&C 129 says that to be in heaven, you have to have a body, ether perfected physical or spirit.
Wouldn't not having a spirit body keep us out of heaven.

2 Nephi 9
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

This says spiritual death is hell. In the book, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Joseph tells us that Spirit Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hades, Shaol, Hell are all the same place, The Spirit world of more properly, the World of Spirits.

So spiritual death is that we go to hell, what keeps us there. not having a body keeps us out of heaven. So maybe not having a spirit body keeps us in hell

this verse also tells us that this spiritual death will deliver up its dead by the power of the resurrection.
so we are back to Ether 3:14 Do we become the spirit children of Christ?

The consequences of sin are death - all except Christ
both physical death - loss of physical body
and spiritual death - loss of spirit body

redeemed by Christ - become his sons & daughters - his spirit children - rise again, a spiritual body

is this the way it works, the scriptures seem to be saying that?

what else do the scriptures say about this?

[eddie]

Out of the best books ... would the prophet say the book you are sponsoring is a "best book"? Better yet, have you asked him?
And when you asked him, what did he say?
However, I can tell you what they would say, they would approve. A major source for the book is the JOD. The First Pres. approved its publication. Not only that, the church paid for it's compilation and publication. Many of the other sources are preserved in the Church Archives
And btw I didn't sponsor it, just offered a link to it

And what is better than the writings of the prophets of God. The answer is as plain as a stool in a pool...depends on where they come from, if they're not accepted by church leaders, they are not canon. Try teaching this stuff in church and see how far you get with it!
I taught priesthood for 14 years and I did teach some of it. It has been 10 years since I taught and I still have many brothers telling me they miss my teaching. I still answer questions from them.

So just give it a rest dude (you first), you are not the truth cop here. And you're not? Almost every post I enter is followed by a comment from you. What does this mean, dude2? It means that you are policing all my words and making every attempt to thwart my messages. Get real, evennnn! And let's get something straight, I am Mr. Dude. Do you need a rest? You seem @-)
Doug started this thread to see if anyone could answer some of his questions. Twice you have gone on major rants against this doctrine. You have constantly criticized The greatest prophet next to Christ and his closest and most loyal friend. Not Mr. Dude at all, just dud. But you are kind of right on one thing, it is us that could use a rest, from you.


There is not anything in the book that is not in harmony with the scriptures. So you say? Does your bishop agree with your assertion? Could you stand at the pulpit on Sunday and teach this stuff?
I don't know, I've not talked to him much. But my Group Lead definitely does. He approached me one day and wanted to share something amazing that he had learned. When I told him I knew it, he said I'm not surprised, I thought you might. This guy was called as a Bishop when 26 and served for a few decades.
Well, lets see, Joseph told us that Adam was an Exalted Resurrected being when he came to the Garden. And the Scriptures clearly confirmed that.
So there is at least one thing. If you would take the time, you would find they all do.
I
In general, no, I would not teach it over the pulpit, that is not the place for this kind of doctrine, there are two many (like you) that are not ready for it.


There are many places where one may think that (policingofall certainly believes that),
but there are things in the scriptures that Brigham calls "hollow toadstool stories"
- not the truth out of mercy (so people link policingofall won't blow a gaskett)
I would admonish anyone to always have a study companion, the spirit. The right spirit truly helps, however. Satan can appear as an angel of light.
I am sure you can tell us all about him, you have certainly spoken with that kind of spirit here more than once.

Are you JWharton? If not, the comparison is exponentially similar. I suppose there are similarities among some of us, strong willed and unrelenting. Only our messages are different. Sad.
You have a way to mathematically compare people? That's amazing. Tell us more.
I don't know JWharton, must be one of your friends?
What is sad is that I revel in the words of Joseph and Brigham and you deny them.

Yep, Jwharton it is, very similar attitude. No one has denied Joseph or Brigham, why twist and turn what has been said. Unrelenting is an appropriate definition.
We teach from the standard works, simple as that. The 4 standard works is by which all doctrine is taught.

Hidingbehindyourwhatever teaches false doctrine and sarcasm, not good. " Be not wise in thine own eyes."

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Out of the best books ... would the prophet say the book you are sponsoring is a "best book"? Better yet, have you asked him?
And when you asked him, what did he say?
However, I can tell you what they would say, they would approve. A major source for the book is the JOD. The First Pres. approved its publication. Not only that, the church paid for it's compilation and publication. Many of the other sources are preserved in the Church Archives
And btw I didn't sponsor it, just offered a link to it

And what is better than the writings of the prophets of God. The answer is as plain as a stool in a pool...depends on where they come from, if they're not accepted by church leaders, they are not canon. Try teaching this stuff in church and see how far you get with it!
I taught priesthood for 14 years and I did teach some of it. It has been 10 years since I taught and I still have many brothers telling me they miss my teaching. I still answer questions from them.

So just give it a rest dude (you first), you are not the truth cop here. And you're not? Almost every post I enter is followed by a comment from you. What does this mean, dude2? It means that you are policing all my words and making every attempt to thwart my messages. Get real, evennnn! And let's get something straight, I am Mr. Dude. Do you need a rest? You seem @-)
Doug started this thread to see if anyone could answer some of his questions. Twice you have gone on major rants against this doctrine. You have constantly criticized The greatest prophet next to Christ and his closest and most loyal friend. Not Mr. Dude at all, just dud. But you are kind of right on one thing, it is us that could use a rest, from you.


There is not anything in the book that is not in harmony with the scriptures. So you say? Does your bishop agree with your assertion? Could you stand at the pulpit on Sunday and teach this stuff?
I don't know, I've not talked to him much. But my Group Lead definitely does. He approached me one day and wanted to share something amazing that he had learned. When I told him I knew it, he said I'm not surprised, I thought you might. This guy was called as a Bishop when 26 and served for a few decades.
Well, lets see, Joseph told us that Adam was an Exalted Resurrected being when he came to the Garden. And the Scriptures clearly confirmed that.
So there is at least one thing. If you would take the time, you would find they all do.
I
In general, no, I would not teach it over the pulpit, that is not the place for this kind of doctrine, there are two many (like you) that are not ready for it.


There are many places where one may think that (policingofall certainly believes that),
but there are things in the scriptures that Brigham calls "hollow toadstool stories"
- not the truth out of mercy (so people link policingofall won't blow a gaskett)
I would admonish anyone to always have a study companion, the spirit. The right spirit truly helps, however. Satan can appear as an angel of light.
I am sure you can tell us all about him, you have certainly spoken with that kind of spirit here more than once.

Are you JWharton? If not, the comparison is exponentially similar. I suppose there are similarities among some of us, strong willed and unrelenting. Only our messages are different. Sad.
You have a way to mathematically compare people? That's amazing. Tell us more.
I don't know JWharton, must be one of your friends?
What is sad is that I revel in the words of Joseph and Brigham and you deny them.

Yep, Jwharton it is, very similar attitude. No one has denied Joseph or Brigham, why twist and turn what has been said. Unrelenting is an appropriate definition.
We teach from the standard works, simple as that. The 4 standard works is by which all doctrine is taught.

Hidingbehindyourwhatever teaches false doctrine and sarcasm, not good. " Be not wise in thine own eyes."

I ask an honest question
you answer with a terse no - with no expatiation no scripture (which you demand of me)

I ask an honest question, I show my homework from the scriptures
you claim they are all that matters so when I use only them
you do this.

I offered the olive branch
you do this

I ask for a civil discussion of gospel doctrines
you do this

why?

[freedomforall]

why?

Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.

This does not say anything about why you say spiritual Death does not mean the loss of the Spirit Body.
And you are so into the scriptures, why no references
Because a person having taught priesthood classes for 14 years should already know this doctrine inside and out. They, likewise, should know how to use provided references on every page in scripture.

Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

This says we become Christ's Sons and Daughters, in what way? Do we become his spirit Children? This material is off topic. We are discussing "estates", not in becoming sons and daughters.

D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

This would seem to indicate we get a spirit body back. How can you get it back if you didn't lose it.? Again, this is off topic. We are not discussing the condition of our spirit and body at death and resurrection. Read Alma Chaps 40-42 to get this information.

And d&C 129 says that to be in heaven, you have to have a body, ether perfected physical or spirit.
Wouldn't not having a spirit body keep us out of heaven.


Again, off topic, but I will address it this way. Which verse(s) tell us what you claim they say? They say what types are there but not what type is required.

D&C 129
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not alesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Matt. 27:52 (52–53)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

2 Nephi 9
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

This says spiritual death is hell. In the book, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Joseph tells us that Spirit Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hades, Shaol, Hell are all the same place, The Spirit world of more properly, the World of Spirits.

So spiritual death is that we go to hell, what keeps us there. not having a body keeps us out of heaven. So maybe not having a spirit body keeps us in hell

Notice the contrast. Upon being righteous the Lord seals us his; upon being evil and without God in the world, the devil seals us his. A spiritually dead person cannot dwell with God. They would be miserable.

Mosiah 5:15
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Alma 34:35
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

this verse also tells us that this spiritual death will deliver up its dead by the power of the resurrection.
so we are back to Ether 3:14 Do we become the spirit children of Christ? No, only those that Christ seals as his can dwell with him

The consequences of sin are death - all except Christ
both physical death - loss of physical body Until the resurrection
and spiritual death - loss of spirit body Incorrect. It is the death of spirituality, of righteousness and being clean before God.

redeemed by Christ - become his sons & daughters - his spirit children - rise again, a spiritual body Spiritual body and spirit, both united in purity and righteousness forever.

is this the way it works, the scriptures seem to be saying that?


Spirit created = first estate
Spirit comes to earth and gains body = second estate
Spirit and body is the soul of man = Doctrine and Covenants 88:15
The soul lives a wicked life, no repentance, no concern for God, the devil seals him his = spiritual death
The soul lives a good life, repents often, keeps the commandments, prays and endures to the end of his life = eternal life


what else do the scriptures say about this? Alma Chaps 40-42, D&C 76 for a good start

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Abr. 3:26 (24–28)
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Off topic, that is the topic. I should know, I's my topic.
I guess civil is too much to expect.

[freedomforall]

Off topic, that is the topic. I should know, I's my topic.

Okay, so what did I say (explain in detail) pertaining to your ambiguous topic? One portion deals with estates, one being first estate, and two, the second estate. Additionally, once we die and go to heaven, this will be our third estate.

The second portion had to do with the state of our spirit and body as a result of what type of life we lived.

Both topics are different in many ways.

So which one was your topic?

[freedomforall]

A spiritually dead person cannot dwell with God. They would be miserable.

Mormon 9:4
4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

[eddie]

[quote=eddie post_id=806407 time=<a href="tel:1504991744">1504991744</a> user_id=9957]
[quote=Hidingbehindmyhandle post_id=805456 time=<a href="tel:1504741146">1504741146</a> user_id=10597]
[quote=freedomforall post_id=805421 time=<a href="tel:1504734124">1504734124</a> user_id=2299]
[quote=Hidingbehindmyhandle post_id=805274 time=<a href="tel:1504699333">1504699333</a> user_id=10597]
Out of the best books ... would the prophet say the book you are sponsoring is a "best book"? Better yet, have you asked him?
And when you asked him, what did he say?
However, I can tell you what they would say, they would approve. A major source for the book is the JOD. The First Pres. approved its publication. Not only that, the church paid for it's compilation and publication. Many of the other sources are preserved in the Church Archives
And btw I didn't sponsor it, just offered a link to it

And what is better than the writings of the prophets of God. The answer is as plain as a stool in a pool...depends on where they come from, if they're not accepted by church leaders, they are not canon. Try teaching this stuff in church and see how far you get with it!
I taught priesthood for 14 years and I did teach some of it. It has been 10 years since I taught and I still have many brothers telling me they miss my teaching. I still answer questions from them.

So just give it a rest dude (you first), you are not the truth cop here. And you're not? Almost every post I enter is followed by a comment from you. What does this mean, dude2? It means that you are policing all my words and making every attempt to thwart my messages. Get real, evennnn! And let's get something straight, I am Mr. Dude. Do you need a rest? You seem @-)
Doug started this thread to see if anyone could answer some of his questions. Twice you have gone on major rants against this doctrine. You have constantly criticized The greatest prophet next to Christ and his closest and most loyal friend. Not Mr. Dude at all, just dud. But you are kind of right on one thing, it is us that could use a rest, from you.


There is not anything in the book that is not in harmony with the scriptures. So you say? Does your bishop agree with your assertion? Could you stand at the pulpit on Sunday and teach this stuff?
I don't know, I've not talked to him much. But my Group Lead definitely does. He approached me one day and wanted to share something amazing that he had learned. When I told him I knew it, he said I'm not surprised, I thought you might. This guy was called as a Bishop when 26 and served for a few decades.
Well, lets see, Joseph told us that Adam was an Exalted Resurrected being when he came to the Garden. And the Scriptures clearly confirmed that.
So there is at least one thing. If you would take the time, you would find they all do.
I
In general, no, I would not teach it over the pulpit, that is not the place for this kind of doctrine, there are two many (like you) that are not ready for it.


There are many places where one may think that (policingofall certainly believes that),
but there are things in the scriptures that Brigham calls "hollow toadstool stories"
- not the truth out of mercy (so people link policingofall won't blow a gaskett)
I would admonish anyone to always have a study companion, the spirit. The right spirit truly helps, however. Satan can appear as an angel of light.
I am sure you can tell us all about him, you have certainly spoken with that kind of spirit here more than once.

Are you JWharton? If not, the comparison is exponentially similar. I suppose there are similarities among some of us, strong willed and unrelenting. Only our messages are different. Sad.
You have a way to mathematically compare people? That's amazing. Tell us more.
I don't know JWharton, must be one of your friends?
What is sad is that I revel in the words of Joseph and Brigham and you deny them.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yep, Jwharton it is, very similar attitude. No one has denied Joseph or Brigham, why twist and turn what has been said. Unrelenting is an appropriate definition.
We teach from the standard works, simple as that. The 4 standard works is by which all doctrine is taught.

Hidingbehindyourwhatever teaches false doctrine and sarcasm, not good. " Be not wise in thine own eyes."
[/quote]
I ask an honest question
you answer with a terse no - with no expatiation no scripture (which you demand of me)

I ask an honest question, I show my homework from the scriptures
you claim they are all that matters so when I use only them
you do this.

I offered the olive branch
you do this

I ask for a civil discussion of gospel doctrines
you do this

why?
[/quote]

why?

Our spirit is our first estate. When Lucifer rebelled against God, he lost his first estate and was cast down to earth along with one third of the hosts of heaven, of whom, decided to follow his plan.

We, on the other, after obtaining our first estate came to earth to receive our second estate (body of flesh and bone) to dwell here and follow the plan of God.

When we die, as an intelligence housed with a spirit and body, will go forward and be in our third estate, meaning we have kept the other two to never be divided ever again.

This does not say anything about why you say spiritual Death does not mean the loss of the Spirit Body.
And you are so into the scriptures, why no references
Because a person having taught priesthood classes for 14 years should already know this doctrine inside and out. They, likewise, should know how to use provided references on every page in scripture.

Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

This says we become Christ's Sons and Daughters, in what way? Do we become his spirit Children? This material is off topic. We are discussing "estates", not in becoming sons and daughters.

D&C 88
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

This would seem to indicate we get a spirit body back. How can you get it back if you didn't lose it.? Again, this is off topic. We are not discussing the condition of our spirit and body at death and resurrection. Read Alma Chaps 40-42 to get this information.

And d&C 129 says that to be in heaven, you have to have a body, ether perfected physical or spirit.
Wouldn't not having a spirit body keep us out of heaven.


Again, off topic, but I will address it this way. Which verse(s) tell us what you claim they say? They say what types are there but not what type is required.

D&C 129
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not alesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Matt. 27:52 (52–53)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

2 Nephi 9
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

This says spiritual death is hell. In the book, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Joseph tells us that Spirit Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hades, Shaol, Hell are all the same place, The Spirit world of more properly, the World of Spirits.

So spiritual death is that we go to hell, what keeps us there. not having a body keeps us out of heaven. So maybe not having a spirit body keeps us in hell

Notice the contrast. Upon being righteous the Lord seals us his; upon being evil and without God in the world, the devil seals us his. A spiritually dead person cannot dwell with God. They would be miserable.

Mosiah 5:15
15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Alma 34:35
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

this verse also tells us that this spiritual death will deliver up its dead by the power of the resurrection.
so we are back to Ether 3:14 Do we become the spirit children of Christ? No, only those that Christ seals as his can dwell with him

The consequences of sin are death - all except Christ
both physical death - loss of physical body Until the resurrection
and spiritual death - loss of spirit body Incorrect. It is the death of spirituality, of righteousness and being clean before God.

redeemed by Christ - become his sons & daughters - his spirit children - rise again, a spiritual body Spiritual body and spirit, both united in purity and righteousness forever.

is this the way it works, the scriptures seem to be saying that?


Spirit created = first estate
Spirit comes to earth and gains body = second estate
Spirit and body is the soul of man = Doctrine and Covenants 88:15
The soul lives a wicked life, no repentance, no concern for God, the devil seals him his = spiritual death
The soul lives a good life, repents often, keeps the commandments, prays and endures to the end of his life = eternal life


what else do the scriptures say about this? Alma Chaps 40-42, D&C 76 for a good start

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Abr. 3:26 (24–28)
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

[freedomforall]

Alma 40:11
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

2 Nephi 2:27
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

The above explains very nicely what happens to the righteous or the wicked after death.

[eddie]

Hidingingbehind

When wanting a civil conversation, then one needs to give a civil conversation! Calling liar, twisting the facts, and then ask for a civil conversation??

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

spirits are not created, they are co eternal with God, they cannot be created nor can they be destroyed.
spirits are one of the two things that make up everything mentioned in 2 Nephi 2:14 as the things that act.
The other being the things that are acted upon.

we became the Sons and Daughters of God when we were begotten of him and our spirits became enrobed
in spirit bodies.

we all attended the council in heaven where we consented to mortality and the consequences thereof.
the consequences are that we are subjected to the temptations of sin and we will yield
the consequences of yielding to sin is death, physical and spiritual. physical death is defined as the loss of the physical body
spiritual death is defined as being cast out from the presence of God
spiritual death will only have power over perdition because Christ redeem all but perdition.
there are only two types of beings in heaven if there were other types we would have been told
there are no spirits without bodies in heaven
there are no spirits with mortal bodies in heaven
there are no other states

considerations for determining the answer
all die and all go to either Spirit prison or paradise.
Joseph said that paradise is not in the original Greek - prison and paradise are both the world of spirits also called hell
perdition did not receive physical bodies and will decay back to what they were before becoming sons of God
making them subject to spiritual death
the scripture says rise again, a spirit body
Christ will redeem us from hell
we will become the sons and daughters of Christ
scriptures say Christ is the Son, and the Father

so the question is, given all the basis and considerations,
since physical death is the loss of the physical body
is spiritual death the loss of the spirit body?

That is the topic.
If you believe it is not, according to the scriptures, why?
if you believe it is, according to the scriptures, why?

[freedomforall]

Ether 3:14-16
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Ye are gods … children of the most High, Ps. 82:6.

as we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29.

ye shall be my sons and daughters, 2 Cor. 6:18.

ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, Mosiah 5:7.

ye certainly will be a child of Christ, Moro. 7:19.

all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters, D&C 25:1.

are begotten sons and daughters unto God, D&C 76:24.

written, they are gods, even the sons of God, D&C 76:58.

Adam, who was the son of God, Moses 6:22.


Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Ether 3:14-16
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Ye are gods … children of the most High, Ps. 82:6.

as we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29.

ye shall be my sons and daughters, 2 Cor. 6:18.

ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, Mosiah 5:7.

ye certainly will be a child of Christ, Moro. 7:19.

all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters, D&C 25:1.

are begotten sons and daughters unto God, D&C 76:24.

written, they are gods, even the sons of God, D&C 76:58.

Adam, who was the son of God, Moses 6:22.


Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Did you answer the question. I've missed that part.
I'm not saying that you have to, I'm just asking if you did.
If so, where? Could you point out the specific lines?

[freedomforall]

spirits are not created, they are co eternal with God, they cannot be created nor can they be destroyed. Absolutely incorrect. Does God lie?
spirits are one of the two things that make up everything mentioned in 2 Nephi 2:14 as the things that act.
The other being the things that are acted upon.

we became the Sons and Daughters of God when we were begotten of him and our spirits became enrobed
in spirit bodies.

we all attended the council in heaven where we consented to mortality and the consequences thereof.
the consequences are that we are subjected to the temptations of sin and we will yield
the consequences of yielding to sin is death, physical and spiritual. physical death is defined as the loss of the physical body And your scripture references are?
spiritual death is defined as being cast out from the presence of God Yes
spiritual death will only have power over perdition because Christ redeem all but perdition. Incorrect. Read D&C 76
there are only two types of beings in heaven if there were other types we would have been told
there are no spirits without bodies in heaven
there are no spirits with mortal bodies in heaven
there are no other states

considerations for determining the answer
all die and all go to either Spirit prison or paradise.
Joseph said that paradise is not in the original Greek - prison and paradise are both the world of spirits also called hell
perdition did not receive physical bodies and will decay back to what they were before becoming sons of God
making them subject to spiritual death
the scripture says rise again, a spirit body
Christ will redeem us from hell
we will become the sons and daughters of Christ
scriptures say Christ is the Son, and the Father

so the question is, given all the basis and considerations,
since physical death is the loss of the physical body
is spiritual death the loss of the spirit body?

That is the topic.
If you believe it is not, according to the scriptures, why?
if you believe it is, according to the scriptures, why?

Eccl. 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Acts 17:29
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

1 Ne. 17:36
36 Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

Heb. 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

God created our spirits before we came to earth.

Moses 3:5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Did you want to learn or to argue and dispute. You asked me some questions. I answered. That should suffice. I do not want to argue or dispute. A convey what I know to be true. I don't need Brigham Young to tell me how to think, or any other person. I value scripture and am confident of my knowledge concerning them. If you want to know what I know, that is fine with me, but I do not want to compare apples to oranges...it goes nowhere.

God created our spirits. It's in the book!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If God created our spirits then he is entirely responsible for what we are and no longer just that we be punished for our sins.
(Read the Real Atonement - THE ATONEMENT TALK by Cleon Skousen it provides all the scriptural on the topic)
God organized our spirit bodies out of finer matter as tabernacles for our spirits (also called an intelligence)
Joseph Smith said that "spirits can only be viewed in flaming fire and glory",
the spirit body enrobes and withholds that glory.

we are co eternal with God, we cannot be created nor can we be destroyed

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If you are worried about reading something from "Cleon Skousen"
don't worry, I can deliver it to you in a plain brown wrapped eMail
no one will ever know.

Besides that, I had it vetted by Louis Ringger, brother of Elder Ringger and those guys were two peas in the same pod.
Louis was a very well respected Stake Patriarch and a member of my ward.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If you are worried about reading something from "Cleon Skousen"
don't worry, I can deliver it to you in a plain brown wrapped eMail
no one will ever know.

Besides that, I had it vetted by Louis Ringger, brother of Elder Ringger and those guys were two peas in the same pod.
Louis was a very well respected Stake Patriarch and a member of my ward.

When I taught Priesthood, I had these two awesome sages in the class, Loius Ringger and Phil Schumway.
One of my lesson goals was to entice one of these great Brothers to speak I learned ,a lot from them both,
Phil taught us a lot, Louis taught us how to teach ourselves a lot.

[diligently seeking]

http://mstroud.podomatic.com/

Listening to podcast's. #40 and #41 will bless your life.

[freedomforall]

If God created our spirits then he is entirely responsible for what we are and no longer just that we be punished for our sins.
(Read the Real Atonement - THE ATONEMENT TALK by Cleon Skousen it provides all the scriptural on the topic)
God organized our spirit bodies out of finer matter as tabernacles for our spirits (also called an intelligence)
Joseph Smith said that "spirits can only be viewed in flaming fire and glory",
the spirit body enrobes and withholds that glory.

we are co eternal with God, we cannot be created nor can we be destroyed

What does God say? He said he created our spirits, not our intelligence. Intelligence was already present. Intelligence cannot and was not created or can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

God came down among the intelligences and created spirits for them.

Abraham 3:21-22
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Zech. 12:1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

[freedomforall]

If you are worried about reading something from "Cleon Skousen"
don't worry, I can deliver it to you in a plain brown wrapped eMail
no one will ever know.

Besides that, I had it vetted by Louis Ringger, brother of Elder Ringger and those guys were two peas in the same pod.
Louis was a very well respected Stake Patriarch and a member of my ward.

Speaking of Patriarchs, I have my Patriarchal Blessing. This is all I need, because it is an official church document. Enuff said on this matter.

[freedomforall]

If you are worried about reading something from "Cleon Skousen"
don't worry, I can deliver it to you in a plain brown wrapped eMail
no one will ever know.

Besides that, I had it vetted by Louis Ringger, brother of Elder Ringger and those guys were two peas in the same pod.
Louis was a very well respected Stake Patriarch and a member of my ward.

When I taught Priesthood, I had these two awesome sages in the class, Loius Ringger and Phil Schumway.
One of my lesson goals was to entice one of these great Brothers to speak I learned ,a lot from them both,
Phil taught us a lot, Louis taught us how to teach ourselves a lot.

The four Standard works teach me a lot.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If you are worried about reading something from "Cleon Skousen"
don't worry, I can deliver it to you in a plain brown wrapped eMail
no one will ever know.

Besides that, I had it vetted by Louis Ringger, brother of Elder Ringger and those guys were two peas in the same pod.
Louis was a very well respected Stake Patriarch and a member of my ward.

When I taught Priesthood, I had these two awesome sages in the class, Loius Ringger and Phil Schumway.
One of my lesson goals was to entice one of these great Brothers to speak I learned ,a lot from them both,
Phil taught us a lot, Louis taught us how to teach ourselves a lot.

The four Standard works teach me a lot.

Men like these teach out of the scriptures,
and out of writings of prophets
and out of great literary works
but my favorite, out of experience.
You can learn something special from a man who survived
7 days on a small rubber raft in the middle of the Pacific.
Or one who receives revelation from the Lord on a nearly
daily schedule. But it has to be in person.
I can learn from all the others on my own.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

If God created our spirits then he is entirely responsible for what we are and no longer just that we be punished for our sins.
(Read the Real Atonement - THE ATONEMENT TALK by Cleon Skousen it provides all the scriptural on the topic)
God organized our spirit bodies out of finer matter as tabernacles for our spirits (also called an intelligence)
Joseph Smith said that "spirits can only be viewed in flaming fire and glory",
the spirit body enrobes and withholds that glory.

we are co eternal with God, we cannot be created nor can we be destroyed

What does God say? He said he created our spirits, not our intelligence. Intelligence was already present. Intelligence cannot and was not created or can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

God came down among the intelligences and created spirits for them.

Abraham 3:21-22
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Zech. 12:1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

This is a confusion created by inaccuracies in the translation of the bible and an inconsistent
use of the word spirit. This is a prime reason to use further light and knowledge from the prophets. This confused me for a long time.
The word spirit and the word intelligence are use to refer to that part of us that is just us, the part that is co eternal with God.
Sometimes the word spirit is used in ways that are misunderstood to be more than the intelligence.
- the father begat spirit sons and daughters
compare to
- Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech

Mehujael existed before Irad begat him, Irad just provided a body for Mehujael
Methusaelexisted before Mehujael begat him, Mehujael just provided a body for Methusael
Lamech existed before Irad Methusaelhim, Methusael just provided a body for Lamech
The spirits existed before the father provided spirit bodies making them his sons and daughters

And some times the word spirit is just used to mean the spirit in a spirit body.

So how do we know what is meant by spirit when reading the scriptures - by recognizing the context of how the word is used. If it is saying it was created, what is meant is that the spirit now resides in a spirit body that was created.
When Joseph says that spirits can only be viewed in flaming fire and glory, he is referring to the co eternal part only. And the Spirit World or as Joseph calls it, also called hell, the world of spirits is populated with unbodied spirits Maybe that is the reason hell is said to be a place of fire and brimstone, all those unveiled spirit seen as fire and glory.

[freedomforall]

When Joseph says that spirits can only be viewed in flaming fire and glory, he is referring to the co eternal part only.

Except that the brother of Jared saw the spirit body of Jehovah, who then come down and took upon himself a mortal body.

Joseph Smith, on the other hand, saw the Father and the Son as resurrected beings. Much different.

So what JS said really doesn't matter.

The spirit world consists of two different places, ie, Spirit Prison, which is for those who are assigned to Satan's realm, and Paradise, which is reserved for the righteous assigned to The Father and Christ.

Rev 21:7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. SEE: TG Sons and Daughters of God.

D&C 76:50-70
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount bZion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

Alma 40:12-14
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Many in Spirit Prison will be taught the gospel and given a chance to receive a higher glory. But at the resurrection those who remain wicked will be consigned to the Telestial Kingdom. There will be no more advancement.

D&C 76:109-112
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their aworks, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.