Mysteries of the Kingdom

For discussion of political issues in general.
Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:19 pm

I'm just wondering what you think about the "Mysteries of the Kingdom"?
Should we seek to know them? If we should learn of them, why are they hidden?
Should we just leave them alone? After all, they are mysteries for a reason.
What do the scriptures say about the mysteries?
What do the prophets say about the mysteries?
What do you think about the mysteries?
Have you found any mysteries?
Are you seeking the mysteries?
Or are they for others to seek? If I needed to know them, God would have told me.

What do you think?

Sponsored Links

Advertisements

Medical Cost Sharing - It's not insurance it's better!

Mcox
captain of 100
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:26 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Mcox » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:30 pm

D&C 6:7, 11. The Mysteries of God—Should One Seek to Know Them?

“A mystery is a truth that cannot be known except through divine revelation—a sacred secret” (Smith and Sjodahl, Commentary, p. 141; see also D&C 42:61, 65; 76:5–10; 89:18–19; 1 Nephi 10:19; Alma 12:9–11).

President Joseph Fielding Smith defined mysteries in a similar way: “The Lord has promised to reveal his mysteries to those who serve him in faithfulness. … There are no mysteries pertaining to the Gospel, only as we, in our weakness, fail to comprehend Gospel truth. … The ‘simple’ principles of the Gospel, such as baptism, the atonement, are mysteries to those who do not have the guidance of the Spirit of the Lord.” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:43.)

A common expression heard in the Church is that we should stay away from the “mysteries,” yet these verses speak of the mysteries in a very positive sense, promising them to the righteous who seek after them. Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the seeming contradiction:

“There is also a restricted and limited usage of the expression mysteries; it is more of a colloquial than a scriptural usage, and it has reference to that body of teachings in the speculative field, those things which the Lord has not revealed in plainness in this day. It is to these things that reference is made when the elders are counseled to leave the mysteries alone.

“‘Oh, ye elders of Israel, hearken to my voice,’ the Prophet said, ‘and when you are sent into the world to preach, tell those things you are sent to tell; preach and cry aloud, “Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; repent and believe the gospel.” Declare the first principles, and let mysteries alone, lest ye be overthrown. Never meddle with the visions of beasts and subjects you do not understand.’ (Teachings, p. 292.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 524.)

MMbelieve
captain of 100
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:45 am

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby MMbelieve » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:15 pm

Wise words were given to me once as I am a naturally curious and inquisitive person. Basically I shouldn't be concerned if I don't have answers to all the questions that come to my mind and that it takes a lifetime to learn the hidden mysteries.

I search all the time to find the truth and higher truths and mysteries but if I don't find it, I let it be for the time being knowing that when it's time for me to know I will be able to discover the answer. This works for me for most everything.

brianj
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2661
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:06 pm
Location: Vineyard, Utah

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby brianj » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:20 pm

I know some who go actively digging for these things, but I don't. I pray for understanding when I read scriptures or attend an endowment session, and pray for the enlightenment I need at any given time. There's plenty I would love to know, such as the vision of Jared (or was it his brother?) that comprises most or all of the sealed plates from the Book of Mormon. I would love to know more about the gathering of Israel and what is to happen between now and the Second Coming, particularly my role in those events. But if I focus on the knowing I will probably not be focused on the doing.

As someone with an intelligence near the top of the population I have a hard time accepting that it's okay to not know everything and say that I don't know, but I have found that doing so is essential to my well being.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:45 pm

Mcox wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:30 pm
D&C 6:7, 11. The Mysteries of God—Should One Seek to Know Them?

“A mystery is a truth that cannot be known except through divine revelation—a sacred secret” (Smith and Sjodahl, Commentary, p. 141; see also D&C 42:61, 65; 76:5–10; 89:18–19; 1 Nephi 10:19; Alma 12:9–11).

President Joseph Fielding Smith defined mysteries in a similar way: “The Lord has promised to reveal his mysteries to those who serve him in faithfulness. … There are no mysteries pertaining to the Gospel, only as we, in our weakness, fail to comprehend Gospel truth. … The ‘simple’ principles of the Gospel, such as baptism, the atonement, are mysteries to those who do not have the guidance of the Spirit of the Lord.” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:43.)

A common expression heard in the Church is that we should stay away from the “mysteries,” yet these verses speak of the mysteries in a very positive sense, promising them to the righteous who seek after them. Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the seeming contradiction:

“There is also a restricted and limited usage of the expression mysteries; it is more of a colloquial than a scriptural usage, and it has reference to that body of teachings in the speculative field, those things which the Lord has not revealed in plainness in this day. It is to these things that reference is made when the elders are counseled to leave the mysteries alone.

“‘Oh, ye elders of Israel, hearken to my voice,’ the Prophet said, ‘and when you are sent into the world to preach, tell those things you are sent to tell; preach and cry aloud, “Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; repent and believe the gospel.” Declare the first principles, and let mysteries alone, lest ye be overthrown. Never meddle with the visions of beasts and subjects you do not understand.’ (Teachings, p. 292.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 524.)
There are many scriptures telling us to seek the mysteries, one even telling High Priests that it is their duty to know the mysteries.

Do you think we can become Gods and Goddesses without knowing the mysteries, everything God knows. If not, when will we learn them. The scriptures tell us that we must work(make improvements in ourselfes) during the day(mortality) because we cannot work in the night(death). So when do we learn what God knows?

Is it beyond mortal ability to understand the Atonement and how it works? How it compensates for all the unjustice done to us as well as by us.
Is it beyond human comprehension to understand Alma's confusing description of ressurection Telestial, ressurection Terrestrial, and ressurection Celestial. Or are they mysteries that can be revealed if we seek, even while yet in mortality?

If we do seek, where do we find the clues to enable us to prepare for and understand personal revelation, if that is possible?

I'm not really asking you to give me an answer acording to your current understanding, what I'm asking is that you seek inspiration on what the Lord's answer for you is. After all, there is a Time and Season for each of us.

But a lot of my personal revelation comes through discusing topics with others and trying to discern, from all inputs, truth from falsehoods.

Many, many, many years ago, my wifes cousin visited us and brought up a mystery. Neither one of us new the answer, he was not preaching but exploring. We had an open discussion on the merrits and demerrits of the topic. And even though I didn't believe it, I didn't cast it out. Many years later we met again. As it turned out, he had the same reaction I did to that initial discussion. And now we both believe what we discussed to be true doctrine, confirmed by yet hidden in the writting of both anchient and modern prophets. But most important, confirmed by revelation by the Holy Ghost.

Even The mortal Christ had to (re)learn everything line apon line. If we can't learn and accept one line, that is currently a mystery, then how can we go on to learn more lines.

How many times are things witheld because of unbelief?

Joseph Smith expressed his love for Brigham because "he believes all I teach him".

Ok, I've revealed a bit of how I feal about seeking mysteries, are you now a seeker?

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:27 pm

MMbelieve wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:15 pm
Wise words were given to me once as I am a naturally curious and inquisitive person. Basically I shouldn't be concerned if I don't have answers to all the questions that come to my mind and that it takes a lifetime to learn the hidden mysteries.

I search all the time to find the truth and higher truths and mysteries but if I don't find it, I let it be for the time being knowing that when it's time for me to know I will be able to discover the answer. This works for me for most everything.
Wise indeed, you are a seeker of a good kind, a patient one.

When I read the scritures, there are a few triggers for me that I need to seek input from other sources and eventually inspiration comes through those endevours.
One is if i read it and it doesn't make sense to me. Like Alma's, or was it Amulek's description of the three ressurections.
Another is parables, the purpose of which is to hide as well as reveal. So what is being hidden is the mystery.
Another is when symbology, or so we think, is being used. Symbology is like a parable, to hide and reveal. And to me, discarding the symbology and treating it as literal sometimes does more to reveal what is hidden.

Someone gave me a copy of "The Real Atonement". It must have been my "Time and Season", it rocked my world. I poured over it and the referenced scriptures. I knew it was true, every fiber of me, but yet, Lord help me in my unbelief. I went to my Stake Patriarch. He simply said, thereis nothing there in contradiction to the teachings of the Church. To me it was like I needed permission to believe what I knew to be true, and he gave me that permission. He became a dear friend.

Years later, a friend said I should read the King Follet discourse, it, like The Real Atonement, opened the way for more "line apon line"

So we don't have to do it all on our own, sometimes "we get along with a little help from our friends".

User avatar
alaris
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:54 pm
Location: Present before the general assembly

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby alaris » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:16 pm

Doug wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:19 pm
I'm just wondering what you think about the "Mysteries of the Kingdom"?
Should we seek to know them? If we should learn of them, why are they hidden?
Should we just leave them alone? After all, they are mysteries for a reason.
What do the scriptures say about the mysteries?
What do the prophets say about the mysteries?
What do you think about the mysteries?
Have you found any mysteries?
Are you seeking the mysteries?
Or are they for others to seek? If I needed to know them, God would have told me.

What do you think?
They are meant to be found by those who hunger and thirst.
1 Nephi 10:19

For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
Alma puts the above in practice and receives :
Alma 40:3 Behold, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. But behold, my son, the resurrection is not yet. Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know—that is concerning the resurrection.
Matthew 7:¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Ask, seek, and knock are command words by the master.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:26 pm

alaris wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:16 pm

They are meant to be found by those who hunger and thirst.
1 Nephi 10:19

For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
Alma puts the above in practice and receives :
Alma 40:3 Behold, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. But behold, my son, the resurrection is not yet. Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know—that is concerning the resurrection.
Matthew 7:¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Ask, seek, and knock are command words by the master.
o

Yes, two of my favorites.
And I agree, he is not telling us what will happen if we do seek and ask. He is telling us to seek and ask, and why we should.

davedan
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2858
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:10 pm
Location: Augusta, GA
Contact:

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby davedan » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:31 pm

"Mysteries" used in the scriptures refer to the temple ordinances.

Other than that, I consider "mysteries of godliness" to be how to help others feel and recognize the spirit. How to help others become converted, to change, to do their home teaching. How to forgive and how to endure. How to resist temptation. How to identify and develop spiritual gifts.

If you learn any of these real mysteries, do share!

User avatar
freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16853
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:56 pm

Learning the mysteries is conditional.

Alma 12:10
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

2 Ne. 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

D&C 50:24
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

D&C 71:5
5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;

Here is a warning:

Alma 12:11
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Those who receive greater light had better honor and respect them or be in danger of losing that light.

Here is a caution:

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

So mysteries are not to be spread around like candy. Mum is the word!

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:26 am

davedan wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:31 pm
"Mysteries" used in the scriptures refer to the temple ordinances.

Other than that, I consider "mysteries of godliness" to be how to help others feel and recognize the spirit. How to help others become converted, to change, to do their home teaching. How to forgive and how to endure. How to resist temptation. How to identify and develop spiritual gifts.

If you learn any of these real mysteries, do share!
I would love to share all I have learned not all are ready.
And you are right, the mysteries are centered around the temple ordinances. Why, because they are ment to teach us the mysteries.

I was pondering a particular question, I knew that something I read was true and I understood what it said, but I could not grasp the logistics of it. And the answer came through part of the endowment cerimony.

There is a reason endowment cerimony had us move from one room to another, going from the garden room to the Telestial, Terrestrial, and finally the Celestial rooms. And through that I gained a better understanding of the nature of the garden period, the Telestial period, and the Terrestrial period.

Yes, that is right, only the Celestial State is eternal, the other three only exist for a period of time.
One of my life long questions answered, I could not beleive in an eternal Telestial Kingdom, it was not consistant.
The Telestial Kingdom, as told by bro. Joseph, is a kingdom of glory. And the temple equates the earth to the telestail kingdom. But the only time this world is a kingdom of glory is after significant intervention by a God. I just could not grasp an eternal telestial world being anything but near hell.
Only one Kingdom is eternal, and all earths go through the garden period, the telestial period, and the terrestrial periods in preperation for the final eternal state, the Celestial Kingdom.

Ok, now that I've said that, you've got to see there are so many consequences to that if it were true. So many things that of which your understanding must change if this were true.

So, I've said it, but is it true? Don't take my word for it, you don't really know who or what I am. So what do you do with that now? I'll tell you, the easiest thing to do is discount and ignore me. Most will. But wIll you knock?

Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:51 am

freedomforall wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:56 pm
Learning the mysteries is conditional.

Alma 12:10
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

2 Ne. 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

D&C 50:24
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

D&C 71:5
5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;

Here is a warning:

Alma 12:11
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Those who receive greater light had better honor and respect them or be in danger of losing that light.

Here is a caution:

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

So mysteries are not to be spread around like candy. Mum is the word!
Your caution is very appropriate. There are things that the spirit must press me very hard for me to share.
In Sunday School Class one day, I was setting next to this very humble lady. The instructor made a sort of speculative comment. The lady said quietly to me, I have always believed .., Instantly I felt the spirit but still being cautious, I said you don't know how close you are. And the spirit just flooded us both and I heard "tell her". So I did and she said So therefore ... She was indeed prepaired for the truth and she was seeking it. Amazingly, this happened in the middle of a large filled class, and we were the only ones that knew what happened.

If you tell them a little and they don't choke on it and can go to the next state, then I continue.
But the audience here is bigger than I can be aware of so it is difficult.

You have been here a long time, so if You think I'm aproaching some boundry that would be harmful to someone if crossed, please tell me.

However, very little of what I know was not widely spread in days past and are in writting for anyone to see. But there are topics that are sensitive.

User avatar
freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16853
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:25 am

It must be clear that the three degrees of glory are eternal. The people assigned to the Telestial will not advance to the Terrestrial. Nor the Terrestrial to the Celestial.

Those assigned the Telestial will be numbered as the sand of sea shores.

D&C 76
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Have you ever read the Seven Deadly Heresies?

Here is number five:

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written: “And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.

The Seven Deadly Heresies Bruce R. McConkie

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:13 am

Bruce R. McConkie, in Morman Doctrine does indeed say that there is no progression between kingdoms.
I have not read "the heriseys" But I have read extensively what Joseph and Brigham have written.

D&C 76:44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

But this verse says that all are saved except perdition. So if one attains only to the Telestial Law in this world and he cannot progress beyond that, then what does being saved mean.
Bro.Joseph made it clear that saved is also exaultation, eventually.

Here is a hint as to how that happens:
D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
And
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

These two scriptures mark the beginning and the end of a generation of time or a eternal round.
The first God the Father redeemed us and we are his children.
The second Christ redeems us and we become his children.
This is why Christ is both the Son (the Savior of this world)
and the Father (the Adam of the next world)

In King Follet discourse, the Son says that he only does what he saw the Father do, and what is that? He layed down his life and took it up again. The Father was also a Son (the Saviour of the previous world) There never was a Father that was not first a Son.

So, how many paths are ther to walk? Only one
Jesus said, I am the way - Come folow me. The way to what, to being a Father. Folow him where, to Gethseminay and Galgotha and the Garden tumb, That is what he saw the father do. And that is what His Sons see him do. And that is what we must do, there is no other way.

In the temple, the phrase is always plural, Exaultations and Eternal Lives - both plural.

This Doctrine was taught by by Joseph and Brigham, and John Taylor, and George Cannon, ...
The Journal of Discourses is full of it, just as it is full of Adam being the Father of Christ as I have shown. It is the reason we are to consider ourselfs to be Adam and Eve in the endowment.

So, It is true that one does not progress from kingdom to kingdom.
The earth progresses from kingdom to kingdom.
But we progress from Eternal Round to Eternal Round.

I have been quite blunt here because you have been.

There is a book, The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives. It is a collection of what the prophets have said on this subject.

Before you condem me anymore with your hereseys, you might want to see what the prophets have said.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:58 am

Oh, btw, Joseph Smith Holds, still does, the keys of this dispensation, so his word pretty much trumps anything any other prophet in this dispensation says.
As per the "Mormon Doctrine", the first presidency did not want it published saying there was an error on nearly every page. But McConkie published it anyway.
Bruce McConkie's father-in-law is Joseph Fielding Smith who, for some unknown reason suppressed much of which his predecessors taught. Probably because of unbelief by the church at large. Something of which Joseph Smith himself warned.
Bruce R. seemed to be of the same mind on all these subjects as JFS. But all things will be restored in the last days, including things taught by Joeseph Smith and then lost. Polygamy as well.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:39 am

"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 100
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby sandman45 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:25 am

His opinion just like his Mormon Doctrine.. he also taught and said Brigham NEVER taught that Adam was God but just misquoted... ooops.. nope history show Brigham really did.. guess Bruce liked to lie too..

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 100
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby sandman45 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:31 am

Doug wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:13 am

In the temple, the phrase is always plural, Exaultations and Eternal Lives - both plural.

This Doctrine was taught by by Joseph and Brigham, and John Taylor, and George Cannon, ...
The Journal of Discourses is full of it, just as it is full of Adam being the Father of Christ as I have shown. It is the reason we are to consider ourselfs to be Adam and Eve in the endowment.

There is a book, The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives. It is a collection of what the prophets have said on this subject.

Before you condem me anymore with your hereseys, you might want to see what the prophets have said.
This book used to be on a website somewhere . I read a few chapters and it was amazing! loved it.. but it was removed for copyright reasons i think..

@Doug do you know if there is a digital copy anywhere?

https://www.amazon.com/Teachings-Doctri ... 1934537942 guess i can buy a hard copy :D

thanks for your comments man..

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:54 pm

I had never heard of "The Seven Deadly Heresies" before so I looked it up.
These are the "Heresies" and the truth about the Heresy:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in
knowledge and is learning new truths.

It would be Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who said this.
Brigham said that the knowledge to learn is infinite and learning is an infinite process. If this were not true, all eternity would come apart. We all progress from sphere to sphere and become perfect in the sphere we are in. That "all" includes God. Yes, he is perfect and has a perfect knowledge, meaning he knows all, within the sphere he is in.



Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic
evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can
be harmonized.

To me this is kind of mote, Joseph and Brigham taught that Adam brought all the animals here from another world. That pretty much says that this earth is NOT the origin of any kind of life. Also, all life was commanded to reproduce after their own kind. Well what of mules and ligers, ... I don't know, I would assume they are somewhat of the same kind. Their are limits to that kind of reproduction, if the parents are not closely related (as to species), they won't reproduce. Also, the first law of thermodynamics reflects an eternal principle, progress or growth from lesser to greater only occurs with the help from the greater. This principle is obvious, the only way the lesser can learn how to be greater is from one who knows how to be greater. However, Cats know how to be cats and plants do not, but cats also don't know how to teach plants to be cats, Gods do.



Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us
of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in
the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty,
will gain their exaltation eventually.

This is unlikely, the only thing that prevents you from becoming exalted is you.
You may choose not to progress or you may choose to become perdition. And I suppose either of those are possible after being sealed. Lucifer was one of the great ones before he fell, Could he have been a great one without being sealed?



Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation
for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

That is clearly what the atonement does and D&C 93:38 and Ether 3:14 shows us how that happens.
We are given an eternity of eternal rounds until we qualify to be the Savior of a World or chose to be perdition. For women, until they are chosen to be an Eve and accept, there is no evidence that there are daughters of perdition, that choice does not seem to be in their nature.



Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one
kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms
eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This is kind of a play on words but, ok, we don't progress from one kingdom to another, we progress from one eternal round or generation of time to another.
An eternal round starts with the event described in D&D 93:38 and thus leave hell and enter Heaven
The Council in Heaven shows the progress we made in the last round by determining the role we qualify for in this round.
We as spirits with spirit bodies, with the earth, enter the garden period.
We as spirits with spirit bodies, with the earth, fall to the Telestial period.
During the Telestial period, we are born and progress through the ordinances and die, returning us to hell.
We, and all the inhabitants (all the children of God) either with spirit bodies, physical bodies, or in hell, are raised to the Terrestrial period.
During the Terrestrial, we are born, progress, and die as in the Telestial period.
The event described in Ether 3:14 happens and the earth enters the Celestial Kingdom.
All those who were not redeemed are cast off the earth into outer darkness.
We have the next Council in heaven



Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam
is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our
bodies, and that he is the one we worship.

Among those who believe and taught this are Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodrif, ..., and I.



Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain
salvation.

Again, Joseph, Brigham, John, ... and Jesus Christ are among those who believed and taught this.
God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.


Take that or leave it, but to progress you are going to have to leave the Seven Deadly Heresies behind and accept the true teachings of the true prophets of this dispensation.


To me, this doctrine, The Doctrine of Eternal Lives is the most beautiful doctrine.
Let me tell you why through a true store. A person close to me (please don't speculate) did me and my family great harm. Through the effort of many of his family and his Bishop, he repented, ordained an Elder and Sealed in the Temple to a very loving and patient Daughter of God. He came to me and ask how could I ever forgive him for what he has done to me and my family. With the understanding that I possibly previously done worse to him than he had done to me and/or that I previously love him so much that I was willing to suffer this to help him progress, I told him how can I not forgive him.
While repentance heals the sinner, forgiveness heals both the offender and the offended. And redemption, made possible through the Atonement, seals both repentance and forgiveness in eternity.

User avatar
freedomforall
Gnolaum ∞
Posts: 16853
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 10:31 pm
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby freedomforall » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:13 pm

Doug wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:13 am
Bruce R. McConkie, in Morman Doctrine does indeed say that there is no progression between kingdoms.
I have not read "the heriseys" But I have read extensively what Joseph and Brigham have written.

D&C 76:44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

But this verse says that all are saved except perdition. So if one attains only to the Telestial Law in this world and he cannot progress beyond that, then what does being saved mean.
Bro.Joseph made it clear that saved is also exaultation, eventually.

Here is a hint as to how that happens:
D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
And
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

These two scriptures mark the beginning and the end of a generation of time or a eternal round.
The first God the Father redeemed us and we are his children.
The second Christ redeems us and we become his children.
This is why Christ is both the Son (the Savior of this world) Christ was sinless, and saved mankind from never ending doom, therefore he cannot become an Adam just so he can sin and repeat a cycle. If Christ were to become an Adam and sin, he would lose Godhood and end up with Lucifer forever, have denied the Holy Ghost. We can't take a perfect, sinless man and cause him to fall from grace, doesn't even make sense.
and the Father (the Adam of the next world)

Read Mosiah 15:1-5 Christ is Jehovah of the Old Testament, and the Only Begotten of the Father.
Jesus is also a Father and a Son. The spirit dwelling inside of Jesus (the flesh) is Jehovah. But Jehovah (the Father) has a Father as well, of whom is not Adam, but Elohim, evidenced by Jesus hearing a voice in heaven while being baptized declaring that he, The Majesty on High, was well pleased with him.

So we have Jehovah (Son) and his Father
And we have Jehovah (Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son)

Michael is Adam in the flesh, and is (The Father of all living) he being the first male on earth.
Eve, being but one wife of Adam, was the Mother of all living.

There are two individuals that are titled Adam:
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Michael/Adam was the first living soul on earth, and he sinned in order for mankind to be present.
The second Adam, being Christ, himself, came to earth to save mankind (from their sins), thus he was sinless in every way, therefore, he was able to bring about the resurrection, or in other words, for us to be quickened.

So we see that the Adam God doctrine does not corroborate scripture in the least. Sorry for being abrupt, but there have been others before you trying to teach the same doctrine here and they failed in the attempt. Why, because that doctrine was denounced and said to be false by President Kimball. So all we have left is to pit two or more prophets against each other. Me, I know through having read the scriptures many times that without a shadow of doubt the Adam-God doctrine is poppycock. Again, I'm sorry.

In King Follet discourse, the Son says that he only does what he saw the Father do, and what is that? He layed down his life and took it up again. The Father was also a Son (the Saviour of the previous world) There never was a Father that was not first a Son.

So, how many paths are ther to walk? Only one
Jesus said, I am the way - Come folow me. The way to what, to being a Father. Folow him where, to Gethseminay and Galgotha and the Garden tumb, That is what he saw the father do. And that is what His Sons see him do. And that is what we must do, there is no other way.

In the temple, the phrase is always plural, Exaultations and Eternal Lives - both plural.

This Doctrine was taught by by Joseph and Brigham, and John Taylor, and George Cannon, ...
The Journal of Discourses is full of it, just as it is full of Adam being the Father of Christ as I have shown. It is the reason we are to consider ourselfs to be Adam and Eve in the endowment.

So, It is true that one does not progress from kingdom to kingdom.
The earth progresses from kingdom to kingdom.
But we progress from Eternal Round to Eternal Round.

I have been quite blunt here because you have been.

There is a book, The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives. It is a collection of what the prophets have said on this subject.

Before you condem me anymore with your hereseys, you might want to see what the prophets have said. Sorry, don't mean to condemn, only to correct. To base one's knowledge, faith and beliefs on hearsay that was never, ever canonized over the scriptures that are, is not my style. President Kimball knew that doctrine to be false, and so do I, I testify of in the name of Jesus Christ.
At this end, I will no longer engage with this discussion because it is sometimes a fruitless endeavor to help others see the truth right out of scripture. Plus, snide remarks by Sandman45 don't help matters either. That was his tactic months ago and, apparently, still is. This is proof to me that pure, true doctrine and hearsay, (un-canonized words) don't blend together with any harmony.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:28 pm

First, here is a little on eternal learning:
4 Brigham Young 1852-08-15
I will now read a little in this book, called the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, pertaining to the subject we had before us last Sabbath. I will read a part of a short revelation, in order to exhibit some items of doctrine that are not generally understood, although it is before the people. All people who are disposed, have the privilege of reading this book for themselves; for it has been published to the world for some years. The Saints read it and have the privilege of understanding it, if they choose. Still, as I observed, we are in the school and keep learning, and we do not expect to cease learning while we live on earth; and when we pass through the veil, we expect still to continue to learn and increase our fund of information. That may appear a strange idea to some; but it is for the plain and simple reason that we are not capacitated to receive all knowledge at once. We must therefore receive a little here and a little there.
[6:286:4]


All I can say about Pres. Kimball, all the condemnation from the authorities about Adam-God was towards the Adam-God Theory. And that is what it is, a theory. It was not taught by Brigham Young, it was put forth by apostates. What Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et all, taught is the truth of the identity of Adam and God, which if given a name would be called the Adam-God Doctrine.

Satan is cleaver in what he teaches, he does not teach things totally original, he counterfeits true doctrine. This gives it some sense of being true but still teaches lies. This leads away from truth in two ways; 1) those who accept his teachings accept his lies. 2) Some who don't accept his lies are left with an aversion to the truth trying to avoid anything that sounds like his lies. The Adam-God Theory is a clear case of 2).


First, I'll let Joseph Smith explain what he meant in the King Follet Discrourse. Notice he does indeed say that the Son will take his Fathers Place.
Joseph Smith
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible…
The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me...
What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’
So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said.
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)
Next, Brigham Young will tell us what the Fathers Place was that Christ will take. Notice that he says that Adam and Eve were immortal and became mortal.

Excerpts from a Sermon Delivered on 9 April 1852
“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal.
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed.
When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing.
162
It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)
I thank Joseph Smith and Brigham Young for addressing freedomfofrall's concerns on who Adam is.


I have a question, I have a .pdf that contains 230 quotes about Who Adam is. I have tried to upload it but could not. What would be an appropriate way to share it?
Last edited by Doug on Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:48 pm

The three figures in the Garden were Elohim, Yahovah and Michael. So, If Yahovah is Jesus Christ, the Son. And Michael is Adam or God the Father, then who is Elohim.

I'll invite Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith to explain;
“How has it transpired that theological truth is thus so widely disseminated? It is because God was once known on the earth among his children of mankind, as we know one another. Adam was as conversant with his Father who placed him upon this earth as we are conversant with our earthly parents. The Father frequently came to visit his son Adam, and talked and walked with him; and the children of Adam were more or less acquainted with their Grandfather, and their children were more or less acquainted with their Great-Grandfather.” (JD 9:148)
“Elohim, Yahovah and Michael were father, Son and grandson. They made this Earth and Michael became Adam.” (Brigham Young, as recorded in the Joseph F. Smith Journal, 17 June 1871 entry; Church Archives)
Note please understand that two sets here are not in the same order -
Elohim, Yahovah and Michael father, Son and grandson
the correct order would be
Elohim, Michael and Yahovah father, Son and grandson

My personal opinion here I think the order was changed to hide the true nature of Michael due to unbelief.

So again, my thanks goes to Brigham Young for further clearification of this subject.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:52 pm

freedomforall,

It appears that Pres. Kimball did embrace the Adam God Doctrine. He expounded upon it a little in a First Presidency Message!
A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to
elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible
for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could
it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the
life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which
coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject
to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But
the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It
does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further
experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there,
a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s
remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be
dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause
trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render
it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President
Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978
So my brother, freedomforall, I hope your heart will soften a little towards this doctrine
and take a new interest in studying it again.

I told the store of my wife's cousin teaching me something that I didn't accept, that something was Adam God. So for over 25 years I rejected it. But after promptings, my heart soften towards it and seriously studied it. Many lines upon lines have been added to my understanding after I finally accepted it. Even after I accepted it, I still had many questions, some answered some not, but I know it to be true, the prophets of the last dispensation have testified of it to me. Please, I pray, let them so testify to you.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1235
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:08 am
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby inho » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:34 am

Doug wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:48 pm
The three figures in the Garden were Elohim, Yahovah and Michael. So, If Yahovah is Jesus Christ, the Son. And Michael is Adam or God the Father, then who is Elohim.
I think it is fascinating how many different versions of Adam-God belief there are. As I have understand it, most people believing in AG think that Jehovah is not the same as Jesus.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:57 am

inho wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:34 am
Doug wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:48 pm
The three figures in the Garden were Elohim, Yahovah and Michael. So, If Yahovah is Jesus Christ, the Son. And Michael is Adam or God the Father, then who is Elohim.
I think it is fascinating how many different versions of Adam-God belief there are. As I have understand it, most people believing in AG think that Jehovah is not the same as Jesus.
If not Jesus, then who?

The thing that bothers me about Adam God are all those trying to say "Brigham didn't mean that, we don't know what he meant, he's not here now so we can't ask him". Well, you pretty much can ask him, he said it in so many different ways, and Joseph Smith too and Wilford Woodruff too and John Taylor too.

The teachings of men, mingled with scripture. Amazing indeed, when all you have to do to get it right is just read the black and white. I love reading Joseph Smith challenging the "learned men". It seems he always says, just read what's written, nothing more, nothing less. I never really got much out of scripture study until I did that, just read what it says, that's all.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1235
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:08 am
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby inho » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:32 am

Doug wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:57 am
inho wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:34 am
Doug wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:48 pm
The three figures in the Garden were Elohim, Yahovah and Michael. So, If Yahovah is Jesus Christ, the Son. And Michael is Adam or God the Father, then who is Elohim.
I think it is fascinating how many different versions of Adam-God belief there are. As I have understand it, most people believing in AG think that Jehovah is not the same as Jesus.
If not Jesus, then who?
This is not my personal belief, so I don't like to defend it. But since I started to talk about this, I guess I should answer you.

Elohim, Jehovah, Michael and Jesus are four generations.
Edward Stevenson wrote the following March, 1896, of having had "more pleasure than usual with a deep talk with Pres. L. Snow on the subject"; others spoke of discussions in October 1897 and January 1899, in addition to the December 1897 deliberations mentioned in the text. As to the identities and relative standing of the personages under discussion, Stevenson wrote in his diary for February 28, 1896: "Certainly Heloheim, and Jehovah stands before Adam, or else I am very much mistaken. Then 1st Heloheim 2d Jehovah, 3d Michael-Adam, 4th Jesus Christ, Our Elder Brother, in the other World from whence our spirits come ... Then Who is Jehovah? The only begoton Son of Heloheim on Jehovahs world." This is in essence what Brigham told the School of the Prophets nearly three decades earlier.

Buerger, The Adam-God Doctrine (Dialogue Vol 15, No. 1)
One needs to also understand that it basically only since Talmage when the title Jehovah has been used solely for Jesus in the church. In the early days, there was some flexibility in the use of names Elohim and Jehovah (see Kirkland Jehovah as the Father, Elohim and Jehovah in the Mormonism and the Bible, or Davis & Hoskinsson Usage of the Title "Elohim")

One could think that the endowment would make it clear that Jehovah is Jesus, but those believing in Adam-God doctrine say that the endowment has been changed, and that they used to be separate. As evidence, they quote things like this:
[The St. George Temple veil ceremony] probably was not the first time Adam-God had been mentioned in the endowment ceremony. Although official temple scripts do not exist prior to 1877, several unfriendly published accounts of the Endowment House ceremony contain cast listings and dialogues of different characters during the creation scene for Elohim, Jehovah, Jesus, and Michael (Hyde 1857, 92-93; Remy and Brenchley 1861, 2:67-68; Waite 1866, 246-49, 252; Beadle 1870, 486, 489-91; Young 1876, 357).

Buerger, The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony (Dialogue, Vol 20, No. 4)

Since you seem to believe the Adam-God doctrine, I'm surprised that you don't know this stuff. It seems that you haven't studied the issue in depth. Maybe if you did study it more, that could change your views.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:36 am

Who is Edward Stevenson that I should take his word over Brigham's, does he have stewardship over Brigham?
Who visited the earth was a First Presidency, that being 3 members not 4, Brigham made that clear.
And he named the three, not the four, the three, and he told us who they are,
father, son, grand son which is also grand father , father (The Father), and son (The Son).
If you chose to believe Edward Stevenson's account of what Brigham said, OK.
But I chose to believe Brigham's account of what Brigham said.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:42 am

inho, I owe you an apology, I miss read your statement that it is NOT your belief.
I am sorry, I will pay better attention from now on.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1235
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:08 am
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby inho » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:49 am

Doug wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:36 am
Who is Edward Stevenson that I should take his word over Brigham's, does he have stewardship over Brigham?
Who visited the earth was a First Presidency, that being 3 members not 4, Brigham made that clear.
And he named the three, not the four, the three, and he told us who they are,
father, son, grand son which is also grand father , father (The Father), and son (The Son).
If you chose to believe Edward Stevenson's account of what Brigham said, OK.
But I chose to believe Brigham's account of what Brigham said.
I think that all who believes in AG would agree that the Earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael. That is, these three (not four) are the First Presidency of the creation. This presidency does not include Holy Ghost, and depending on whom you ask, it does not include Jesus either. You quoted BY saying “Elohim, Jehovah and Michael were father, Son and grandson." Most people would understand that to mean that Jehovah is the son of Elohim and the father of Michael. You don't. And you are not alone, if you read Kirkland's article Jehovah as the Father, you might have noticed that George Q. Cannon believed in AG and yet he believed that Jehovah is Jesus. However, there are plenty of quotations that say the opposite (there is a whole chapter in Drew Briney's book Understandig Adam-God Teachings).

The whole thing is messy. There are several versions of Adam-God doctrine. Proponents of all the versions are able to quote BY and others to defend their view.

However, I myself am following Wilford Woodruffs counsel:
How much longer I shall talk to this people I do not know; but I want to say this to all Israel: Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven’s sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things? God has revealed himself and when the 121st Section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether there be one God or many Gods, they will be revealed to the children of men, as well as all thrones and dominions, principalities, and powers. Then why trouble yourselves about these things? God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know. If we want to know any more, wait till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this.

Doug
captain of 100
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Postby Doug » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:33 am

It is hard for me to think that Jesus would not be involved in the beginning of this world since he is it's savior. And, therefore it is his world. After it is Celestialized, it is where he will reside, just as The Father resides on the world he saved.

I think Wilford Woodruff's advice was very good for the time and for those who are not seeking. But there are other doctrines to learn that require a a much better understanding of the true nature of the Father and The Son. We learn line upon line. If we do not learn a particular line we will not be able to learn the next. As we approach the final days, more and more of what has been hidden will be revealed.

So, If I don't understand the that the next sphere for Christ is to be an Adam, meaning that after he saves a world for his father he will then Father a world by redeeming all except perdition by providing spirit bodies for all his children and then taking those children to a new world and providing physical bodies for them, then how will I know what will be expected of me. How can I continue to learn more of this great plan if I will not the true identities of those providing this great opertunity to participate in that plan.

At the time of Wilford Woodruff, the church was threatened with a lot of unbelief, even within the 12. For the Church to progress, it was more inportant that the contention over this and other doctrines subside that the doctrins be known and understood.

It is interesting that those who actually sat at the feet of Joseph and Brigham seem to say what Joseph and Brigham said. There were some temporary exceptions to that but those Apostles repented and were returned to full fellowship in the qourum.

There is indeed far more to study about Adam God than I have studied. Most of all that is second, third, fourth ... hand. When I have first hand and I understand it, I see no need for all the others. I have friends that have become so involved in knowing everything there is to know that the results is the same as if they refused to believe it all, their learning is damned, stop, blockaided. For me it's more like, OK, it's true, I still have some questions but it's true - what's next.

I guess I'm rambling on here but something inportamt to me is not just what is true, but why is it true. Like ther were three(what) because they are a presidency(why). OK, that rings true. The Plan of Salvation is reasonable, meaning it can be reasoned out keven enough hints.

inho, Thnks for sharing,
Doug


Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], cappaccio, CelestialAngel, dafty, DesertWonderer2, gclayjr, paid2play, PressingForward, silk and 155 guests