Ensign Article--Yet ANOTHER Anti-Male Pornography Push

[Fiannan]

Fiannan... it is absurd to apply these generalisations to Christians. Why pretend to be Christian if you are not... there is no common sense reason for anyone to do so.

Which generalizations?

[freedomforall]

Fiannan... it is absurd to apply these generalisations to Christians. Why pretend to be Christian if you are not... there is no common sense reason for anyone to do so.

Isn't it called getting information from the either the Enquirer, Dr Ruth or even The Kinsey Institute? Scriptures are only secondary because they jam up learning Godliness, virtue and in being pure in thought and action? For example. thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn. Just where does God fit into all of this?

As I have never quoted any of these sources then may I direct you to a little scripture? It says something about "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

How can one bear false witness with a question? So the implied accusation is a moot point, and trying to use scripture to back up the accusation is indeed bearing false witness. But here is a another question: why is any topic covering any type of sexual content such a fixation? And, and when I stated that thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn, this is a true statement and not bearing false witness. What is the difference between using a ? and not using a ? ?

[Sarah]

I am willing to give both genders the benefit of the doubt. I do not think men or women are consciously trying to hurt, nag, and abuse each other. I'll even go so far as to say most people get married because they deem themselves in love with their partner.

Most women start out loving and anxious to meet their man's needs and most men start off solicitous and eager to meet their wife's needs. Maybe though, we have confused "being in love" as having the needs of our egos met - rather than being given the opportunity to love and nurture another soul. As parent it's easier to see and feel intrinsically what genuine love does in a crisis. It doesn't lash out, it doesn't isolate, instead it suffers long and is kind. It is not puffed up and seeks not its own.

The lie I think we are falling for is that someone else's behavior is going to make us happy. It's not. Such a dangerous lie. We waste all our energy focusing on trying to determine if we are loved, valued, respected by our mate.

Instead we need to find that inner part our us that know who we are, and Then we are free to live like we are loved and valued.

I think this Christian Music video has the right idea:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_r47Xhkf20

We could Debate all day long and still feel unfulfilled and frustrated or we can tap into to God's love. I Mean if we can manage to believe what God is trying to tell us, it's a pretty cool story - the most perfect, amazing, entity In the universe made us, he thinks we're awesome and he is begging to connect to us. That connection to him will free us to love one another the same way he loves us.

We are all going to hurt each other (very few people start off with intent to hurt or nag, but it still happens) and once you have been hurt or nagged you have a choice to make - Bitterness or forgiveness?

One leads to peace the other to never ending dissatisfaction.

This is true. We are placed on an earth where we are going to disappointed. This should cause us to turn to God to have our love needs met by Him, for His love is the GREATEST of all gifts. We can have peace and confidence if we are centered in His love, and if we are living according to His laws. Let virtue garnish our thoughts so that our confidence will be strong in His presence. Bridle all your passions so that you may be filled with love.

And I like your comparison to loving children. Do we get upset if they are not meeting one of OUR needs? We need to look at our spouse as we look at our children. Our only expectations for our children stem from our desire for them to progress. Our expectations are not for our children to meet one of our needs, and children who have this burden will withdraw or have low self confidence. A spouse who feels a constant pressure to fulfill his or her spouse's needs will withdraw. We have a built-in desire for freedom, and if we feel pressured into doing something we don't want to do, we withdraw. That's why requests should be made in humility, without expectation or entitlement. Give your spouse the option for loving you. The only expectations we should have in marriage are those things we promise in the temple - chastity, and multiplying and replenishing the earth. All other expectations should be filtered out or specifically agreed upon.

I think pornography use is breaking the Law of Chastity if you are having sexual relations with that picture. Are you behaving in a way that intentionally stimulates your sexual arousal. And yes, women are guilty of the same thing and we should have counsel for the women about being aroused by what they are watching or reading.

Now, I don't think women should necessarily take their husbands' use personally, and I do think they should look at all options of staying in the marriage for the sake of the children, but the one woman I know who dealt with her husband's addiction said she finally gave up and broke the marriage because she was worried about the safety of her son. The other incident I know of is that pornography use preceded a man I know soliciting prostitutes. So porn use may seem innocent at first, but it is like alcohol, it leads many people down darker paths.

[Finrock]

I am willing to give both genders the benefit of the doubt. I do not think men or women are consciously trying to hurt, nag, and abuse each other. I'll even go so far as to say most people get married because they deem themselves in love with their partner.

Most women start out loving and anxious to meet their man's needs and most men start off solicitous and eager to meet their wife's needs. Maybe though, we have confused "being in love" as having the needs of our egos met - rather than being given the opportunity to love and nurture another soul. As parent it's easier to see and feel intrinsically what genuine love does in a crisis. It doesn't lash out, it doesn't isolate, instead it suffers long and is kind. It is not puffed up and seeks not its own.

The lie I think we are falling for is that someone else's behavior is going to make us happy. It's not. Such a dangerous lie. We waste all our energy focusing on trying to determine if we are loved, valued, respected by our mate.

Instead we need to find that inner part our us that know who we are, and Then we are free to live like we are loved and valued.

I think this Christian Music video has the right idea:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_r47Xhkf20

We could Debate all day long and still feel unfulfilled and frustrated or we can tap into to God's love. I Mean if we can manage to believe what God is trying to tell us, it's a pretty cool story - the most perfect, amazing, entity In the universe made us, he thinks we're awesome and he is begging to connect to us. That connection to him will free us to love one another the same way he loves us.

We are all going to hurt each other (very few people start off with intent to hurt or nag, but it still happens) and once you have been hurt or nagged you have a choice to make - Bitterness or forgiveness?

One leads to peace the other to never ending dissatisfaction.

Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

-Finrock

[Kitkat]

I am willing to give both genders the benefit of the doubt. I do not think men or women are consciously trying to hurt, nag, and abuse each other. I'll even go so far as to say most people get married because they deem themselves in love with their partner.

Most women start out loving and anxious to meet their man's needs and most men start off solicitous and eager to meet their wife's needs. Maybe though, we have confused "being in love" as having the needs of our egos met - rather than being given the opportunity to love and nurture another soul. As parent it's easier to see and feel intrinsically what genuine love does in a crisis. It doesn't lash out, it doesn't isolate, instead it suffers long and is kind. It is not puffed up and seeks not its own.

The lie I think we are falling for is that someone else's behavior is going to make us happy. It's not. Such a dangerous lie. We waste all our energy focusing on trying to determine if we are loved, valued, respected by our mate.

Instead we need to find that inner part our us that know who we are, and Then we are free to live like we are loved and valued.

I think this Christian Music video has the right idea:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_r47Xhkf20

We could Debate all day long and still feel unfulfilled and frustrated or we can tap into to God's love. I Mean if we can manage to believe what God is trying to tell us, it's a pretty cool story - the most perfect, amazing, entity In the universe made us, he thinks we're awesome and he is begging to connect to us. That connection to him will free us to love one another the same way he loves us.

We are all going to hurt each other (very few people start off with intent to hurt or nag, but it still happens) and once you have been hurt or nagged you have a choice to make - Bitterness or forgiveness?

One leads to peace the other to never ending dissatisfaction.

This is true. We are placed on an earth where we are going to disappointed. This should cause us to turn to God to have our love needs met by Him, for His love is the GREATEST of all gifts. We can have peace and confidence if we are centered in His love, and if we are living according to His laws. Let virtue garnish our thoughts so that our confidence will be strong in His presence. Bridle all your passions so that you may be filled with love.

And I like your comparison to loving children. Do we get upset if they are not meeting one of OUR needs? We need to look at our spouse as we look at our children. Our only expectations for our children stem from our desire for them to progress. Our expectations are not for our children to meet one of our needs, and children who have this burden will withdraw or have low self confidence. A spouse who feels a constant pressure to fulfill his or her spouse's needs will withdraw. We have a built-in desire for freedom, and if we feel pressured into doing something we don't want to do, we withdraw. That's why requests should be made in humility, without expectation or entitlement. Give your spouse the option for loving you. The only expectations we should have in marriage are those things we promise in the temple - chastity, and multiplying and replenishing the earth. All other expectations should be filtered out or specifically agreed upon.

I think pornography use is breaking the Law of Chastity if you are having sexual relations with that picture. Are you behaving in a way that intentionally stimulates your sexual arousal. And yes, women are guilty of the same thing and we should have counsel for the women about being aroused by what they are watching or reading.

Now, I don't think women should necessarily take their husbands' use personally, and I do think they should look at all options of staying in the marriage for the sake of the children, but the one woman I know who dealt with her husband's addiction said she finally gave up and broke the marriage because she was worried about the safety of her son. The other incident I know of is that pornography use preceded a man I know soliciting prostitutes. So porn use may seem innocent at first, but it is like alcohol, it leads many people down darker paths.

Yes! Do not take a loved one's addiction personally. Instead, seek to connect with them - you can argue all day about who hurts who more - or you can learn how to offer TRUE LOVE because He first loved you with a true love.

Remember, just as you would not be offended if a heroine addict chose heroine over your home cooked soup don't fall into the trap of believing you are not _________ enough or your soup isn't tasty. Remember, live like you are loved (because He first loved you) and than you are free to offer true love to another soul and you will not fall into the trap of just swapping ego gratifications with your spouse.

And just for the record, you can't ever pacify another person's needy ego no matter what you do, no matter how perfect or imperfect you are. :ymhug: The ego never rests, nothing is good enough for it. See it for what it is.

Unbridled passion for ANYTHING kills love. I think porn is so damaging because wives/husbands DO take this personally. He's lonely and feeling guilty, and she feels ugly and unwanted (or the other way around) and BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! That ego centered Love dies and you get to decide what's left.

Bridle all your passions that you might be filled with love.

[Sarah]

And just for the record, you can't ever pacify another person's needy ego no matter what you do, no matter how perfect or imperfect you are. :ymhug: The ego never rests, nothing is good enough for it. See it for what it is.

And this is really true. Think of a child for example. Are you really just meeting a need or giving into his or her wants. If they are wants, you can never give enough. The child will want more and more and more. And this happens with friendship relationships too. If you are insecure, you will look for someone who you think will make you feel special. This was how I felt as a child and adolescent in school. I wanted to be accepted and would act needy or eager around the popular kids. It only turned them off against me. They saw me not giving the gift of friendship, but of wanting something from them, so of course they are going to run away. Our gifts should be true gifts, and not requests, and this applies to all kinds of love-gifts.

[Kitkat]

Also, I side with Anne Frank "Despite everything, I believe most people are good at heart"

Granted there a few truly bad apples, but I believe they are more rare than common.

Find the good in your loved ones and connect with that. Start there. Let the spirit be your guide. God works in mysterious ways, let him work through you.

I believe you will know if there ever comes a time when you should exit a relationship.

Resist the urge to judge others because there is NO WAY you are qualified to pass accurate judgement on someone, no matter how awesome you are.

Do all things with great love and trust that God has a plan. Don't be afraid, but be believing, be kind, and connect with a loved one today!

----- end of infomercial

[WhereCanITurn4Peace]

Awesome comments, Kitkat and Sarah! Thank you

Love these kinds of posts...they are so much more productive than the ones that point fingers and push blame on everybody else.

How powerful are the messages that offer hope, forgiveness and that which seeks to connect with the Spirit and the "godliness" in all of us.

1 Peter 3:8-9

Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing

Alma 13:28

But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering

[brianj]

Just waded through this thread and it was painful.

LIke the war on drugs made things worse, the war on porn is worse than the porn itself. When you teach people that porn is so terrible that it will destroy their marriage, it probably will. Daddy looks at nudies once a month, so kiddos, goodbye to him!

Newsflash!!!! Men like looking at women's bodies. Doesn't mean they don't love their wife or kids. God made men that way. Apparently He screwed up, right?

Just like men like looking at bodies, women like looking at the property or power or bodies or romance of other men. Why is that not the same cheating as looking at a woman's body? What is so inherently evil about a body or sex?

Most divorces I know are by women dissatisfied with the income and lifestyle their husband provided. Tear up the family with no shame. And that is the big issue - the hypocrisy of it all. Jesus did not like hypocrites.

When hypocrites arbitrarily focus on certain sins, even with bigger consequences, and ignore others, you have to ask what the agenda is. And as I see it, it is about power and control over men. Otherwise, we would be shaming the women equally for blowing up their families, and for their fantasies that involve other men or their power or property or money or romance. Virtually every chick flick involves a fantasy guy, but since he has certain body parts covered, no problem in the eyes of society and the church.

We only seem to care about families when the men cause a problem. And since men are more likely to like sex, we go after that. Complete obsession over sex and nudity.

Instead of arbitrarily choosing to focus on certain sins, the emphasis should be on those with the most severe consequences. Why beat up a good dad and husband for occasionally looking at a woman's body while we ignore others who tear families apart over money or whatever.

I agree that most people should avoid marriage. Most men will end up a disappointment to their wives. Just about every marriage I know I've heard of such from the women. At least until their guy made alot of money. Easier to just send the ladies a check and stay away from them.

Anyway, as guys are told more and more how evil their god-given natures are, the more they'll want to spare the women from such disgusting behaviors. Hopefully the ladies can enjoy their cats.

I really don't think it's just about when men cause problems and attacking things men like.

Have you ever looked at porn? I have. (Please note that I am a convert). Pornographic images, either explicit video images or explicit images conveyed through text, have the purpose of generating lust. And what did our Savior say about lust? If a man (or woman) looks upon a woman (or man) to lust after her (or him) they have already committed adultery in their heart.

There is very good reason for the fight against pornography. The rising generation will see porn and think that's normal behavior, objectifying one another and causing a lot of problems for their generation. Married adults will be lusting after pornographic characters even when they are doin' the dirty with their spouse. Some will take care of business themselves, neglecting their spouse. And some will look elsewhere for what they aren't getting from their spouse. All of these consequences lead people away from the Savior when our sole purpose should be to come unto Christ.

I got into a little trouble with another forum member for comparing hardcore pornography with mainstream entertainment, but I'm going to do so again: I have a question for those women who want to think porn is primarily a male problem and that what you do is just fine: You already know how much it did or would hurt you to find your husband looking at (and presumably fantasizing to) porn, but what makes you think it hurts your husband any less when he has to endure two hours of romantic movie with you only to listen to disparaging comments as he walks out? It seems impossible to walk out of a crowded, popular chick flick without hearing your own wife say "I wish you were more like him," overhearing another woman say that to the guy she's with, or hearing somebody in a pack of women say "I wish (her guy) was like (the male lead in the movie)."

It hurts. It hurts more than most guys will express. And from the reaction I've observed to a Mormon wife finding her husband with a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, a magazine full of women in swimwear can hurt the woman as much as a full nude magazine. But what messages to we get from the church? "Men and women, since it can happen to either of you, if your spouse catches you with porn it will really hurt her. Don't hurt her. Husbands and wives, stay away from porn so you don't ruin your relationship and cause your wife to leave you."

I wish that instead of being so defensive or argumentative, participants in this thread would consider what it is about a guy watching porn that hurts a woman so much then contemplate what media women are using that can be as damaging to the relationship or hurtful to her husband.

Fifty Shades has come up several times in this thread. When the books were really popular I drove through Utah and stopped at Costco stores in Salt Lake and St. George to get gas and eat a bunch of free samples. On the drive south there were a lot of copies of Fifty Shades in both stores. On the drive north a week later there was a lot less inventory. I really doubt that book was more popular with non-LDS women in Utah than anywhere else in the world, therefore the sales rates indicate a lot of LDS women were buying those books.

[AI2.0]

Excerpts from the Proclamation to the World on the Family:

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

This discussion started because of criticism that a church sponsored article was too harsh toward men and was written from the perspective that more LDS men are engaged in the practice of viewing pornography than women.

Since more men in the world view pornography, I think we can accept the premise that more men in the church view it than women.

The point that we've not considered is the damage this does to a family. Look at the parts of the proclamation I have bolded. An LDS husband who actively uses pornography for sexual stimulation is not honoring his marital vows. And he is not righteously presiding in his home. Is this not a serious concern? Should the wife look the other way and leave him alone? Should he continue to exercise his priesthood, if asked to give blessings or pass or bless sacrament? Should he pretend that he's not doing anything wrong and that this is a part of who he is? Should his wife accept that pornography is going to be an element of their marital relationship? A man who looks at pornography loses the spirit (D&C 63:16), so is he capable of presiding in the home, or should his wife feel that she can not trust him or look to him to lead their family in righteousness? Is it acceptable for a man who holds the priesthood of God to engage in such an unholy activity? Is it mean, accusing, judgmental or nagging to recognize that pornography viewing is not acceptable for men who've made sacred covenants in the temple and they should do all they can to stop this practice?

It's not a good practice for men outside the church, but the way I see it, there's no way an LDS man can justify this practice, if he's trying to live as he knows he should. And so, he needs to get help, a believing LDS man is not justified in ignoring the problem, lying to himself that it's not that often, or assuming it can be his secret that no one else needs to know about --that this way, it's not hurting anyone else.

I'm not trying to bash men who struggle with this, I'm just trying to point out why LDS wives who find themselves in this predicament are desperate for help and some kind of hope, in trying to keep their marriage from falling apart. I would think that we would want to do everything we can to help these couples, not try to turn it into another opportunity to pit the sexes against each other.

[brianj]

This discussion started because of criticism that a church sponsored article was too harsh toward men and was written from the perspective that more LDS men are engaged in the practice of viewing pornography than women.

You and I interpreted the original post very differently. I saw a criticism that it was focusing on men but not really discussing women who use porn. I don't recall any allegation that the rates of porn consumption are equal, just the criticism that this article (like so many others) appears to paint pornography as an almost exclusively male sin.

[Fiannan]

Fiannan... it is absurd to apply these generalisations to Christians. Why pretend to be Christian if you are not... there is no common sense reason for anyone to do so.

Isn't it called getting information from the either the Enquirer, Dr Ruth or even The Kinsey Institute? Scriptures are only secondary because they jam up learning Godliness, virtue and in being pure in thought and action? For example. thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn. Just where does God fit into all of this?

As I have never quoted any of these sources then may I direct you to a little scripture? It says something about "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

How can one bear false witness with a question? So the implied accusation is a moot point, and trying to use scripture to back up the accusation is indeed bearing false witness. But here is a another question: why is any topic covering any type of sexual content such a fixation? And, and when I stated that thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn, this is a true statement and not bearing false witness. What is the difference between using a ? and not using a ? ?

Anyone can read your original statement and see its context. So yes, you imply something that is not true and therefore are bearing false witness.

Also, the origin of this thread is rooted in the original poster's examination of an article that ran in the Ensign. One might note that some parents practically require their kids to read Ensign articles each month. Nobody I hope requires their kids to read posts on an internet forum. That is something to consider. I would not want children, and by that I include young teens, to be exposed to the article in the Ensign, would you? However, that point aside, the fact there is no discussion forum within the Ensign means people who are older, and who wish to analyze issues that are current in LDS culture, certainly can benefit from discussions within a forum such as this. Would you not agree with Paul that all people need to reason in regards to God's principles?

[AI2.0]

This discussion started because of criticism that a church sponsored article was too harsh toward men and was written from the perspective that more LDS men are engaged in the practice of viewing pornography than women.

You and I interpreted the original post very differently. I saw a criticism that it was focusing on men but not really discussing women who use porn. I don't recall any allegation that the rates of porn consumption are equal, just the criticism that this article (like so many others) appears to paint pornography as an almost exclusively male sin.

I don't know agree that it paints it as an exclusively male sin. The church had a video on a girl who struggled with pornography. Sis. Reeves told in General Conference about how her Daughter was exposed to it. This is a problem for both men and women. I did not read the article to assume that it was an exclusively male sin. But, there's no question it is a serious problem for married and unmarried LDS men. You aren't disagreeing with that are you? You are willing to admit that it is a serious problem for some married and single LDS men, right?

The fact is, the article focused on women struggling to deal with this, because that's what LDS family social services is dealing with mostly--and so the article reflects that.

I don't want to google pornography statistics, but I've read enough on it to know that it's more likely a problem for LDS men that women. You might want to look on the church's website and the addiction recovery program for more info.

[JohnnyL]

MOST women have messed up hormones!!!! Between birth control...

You may have something there. When a woman uses the birth control it tricks her body into believing it is pregnant when the fertile portion would take place. When a woman is fertile she seeks a different sort of man than when she is not able to be pregnant. Also, women subconsciously detect the best man to mate with when she is able to be impregnated. This has to do with immune systems. A woman who may, for instance, have high immunity to bacterial infections, but low immunity to viral, will seek out a man with opposite immune strengths so her children will be healthier. In other words, if a woman enjoys the smell of her husband that is nature's way of telling her he is a good immune match. One study associated with this showed that women who enjoyed the smell of their husbands were half as likely to divorce. So women who meet their one-and-only when on the pill may, when they go off to get pregnant, find their husband repulsive. And the subconscious of that woman will create friction between her and her husband.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

[Fiannan]

I don't want to google pornography statistics, but I've read enough on it to know that it's more likely a problem for LDS men that women. You might want to look on the church's website and the addiction recovery program for more info

And yet psychology says this is a bogus issue. Nowhere in the DSM is pornography viewing listed as an addiction unless it gets into compulsive issues where a person cannot maintain a relationship or can't help themselves from viewing it at work. However, in religious conservative sub-sets of the population any viewing at all is considered addiction - which trivializes the term. Imagine a seminar for addicts. One person says they are there because they cannot help themselves from going home with anonymous partners, one says they are there because they cannot help but returning to heroin and it has destroyed their career, the other is there because their wife found out they visited a porn site three times in the last year. See the absurdity?

As for statistics, these have been posted time and time again. Porn USE is as high (if we define it as visiting a porn site) for younger women as it is for men. Duration of visits are generally longer for young men. So while an 18 year old woman may visit a porn site and browse for 30 minutes every other week, or a stay-at-home mom might use it to get in the mood for a date with her husband, an 18 year old man may spend hours in a week looking at it and a husband might look at it all evening after a convention lets out for the evening. And more men than women use porn as a substitute for relationships than women. However, if we define sin as doing it, rather than duration of said act, then women are as likely to be involved in this issue as men.

[freedomforall]

Isn't it called getting information from the either the Enquirer, Dr Ruth or even The Kinsey Institute? Scriptures are only secondary because they jam up learning Godliness, virtue and in being pure in thought and action? For example. thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn. Just where does God fit into all of this?

As I have never quoted any of these sources then may I direct you to a little scripture? It says something about "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

How can one bear false witness with a question? So the implied accusation is a moot point, and trying to use scripture to back up the accusation is indeed bearing false witness. But here is a another question: why is any topic covering any type of sexual content such a fixation? And, and when I stated that thread after thread on sex or something related to sex or gay people and their sexual habits, or why men view porn, this is a true statement and not bearing false witness. What is the difference between using a ? and not using a ? ?

Anyone can read your original statement and see its context. So yes, you imply something that is not true and therefore are bearing false witness.

Also, the origin of this thread is rooted in the original poster's examination of an article that ran in the Ensign. One might note that some parents practically require their kids to read Ensign articles each month. Nobody I hope requires their kids to read posts on an internet forum. That is something to consider. I would not want children, and by that I include young teens, to be exposed to the article in the Ensign, would you? However, that point aside, the fact there is no discussion forum within the Ensign means people who are older, and who wish to analyze issues that are current in LDS culture, certainly can benefit from discussions within a forum such as this. Would you not agree with Paul that all people need to reason in regards to God's principles?

They can also see the question marks, so I do not bear false witness by asking questions...questions are not bearing false witness. Nothing, I mean nothing you can ever say will change this fact, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise. Do you have a guilty conscience or something? So, please, quit bearing false witness against me. Further, if I bear false witness, there will be no question as to its presence and no question mark to confuse you with.
All I know is that anything sexual appears to be a fixation here lately. Call it an observation. What's next, everything one wants to know about orgasms but were afraid to ask? With new, more lenient forum rules, just where do we draw the line?

[Fiannan]

They can also see the question marks, so I do not bear false witness by asking questions...questions are not bearing false witness. Nothing, I mean nothing you can ever say will change this fact, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise. Do you have a guilty conscience or something? So, please, quit bearing false witness against me. Further, if I bear false witness, there will be no question as to its presence and no question mark to confuse you with.

Say what you wish. Why did you drop the names of questionable sources in a reply, which makes it sound as if I may have used them as references?

Anyway, I choose not to even reply to your last mini-paragraph as I think it is rather...well, tacky, But hey, that is maybe me being too sensitive. What I would like to address is the issue as to guilt. I am feeling zero guilt on this issue. I have made my positions known and furthermore I was involved in the anti-porn movement when it was impossible to get more than a handful of Mormons in an entire state to take action against it. Of course in those days most porn was on the other side of the tracks and so it did not really touch the middle class areas (unless it involved a guy occasionally buying a magazine at the local convenience store or sneaking into a naughty bookstore while on a business trip). And in those Meece Commission Report days I was always careful not to present misleading arguments to make my points against porn.

[Fiannan]

What do people think of this recent Breitbart article?

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/03/0 ... -failings/

[Kitkat]

Great video about what shame does to people and then in turn what empathy does to shame. Love to hear all ya'alls thoughts on this...

Adding this additional video - Why guilt is BETTER than shame

How vulnerability plays in:

[AI2.0]

My responses;

I don't want to google pornography statistics, but I've read enough on it to know that it's more likely a problem for LDS men that women. You might want to look on the church's website and the addiction recovery program for more info

And yet psychology says this is a bogus issue.The LDS church says otherwise. The LDS church says it's a sin. Nowhere in the DSM is pornography viewing listed as an addiction unless it gets into compulsive issues where a person cannot maintain a relationship or can't help themselves from viewing it at work. But, Heavenly Father has said no pornography is acceptable, not just when it has become an addiction that makes a person dysfunctional. Heavenly Father doesn't care what the DSM says. However, in religious conservative sub-sets of the population any viewing at all is considered addiction - which trivializes the term. You are generalizing again. I don't care what other 'sub sets' of religions teach, we aren't talking about them--the op is about the LDS church, because the Ensign is an LDS created magazine. It is false to say the LDS church treats all pornography viewing as addiction. There was a very good article several months ago that pointed out the degrees. When I have time I'll find it for those interested in actually reading what the church is teaching. Imagine a seminar for addicts. One person says they are there because they cannot help themselves from going home with anonymous partners, one says they are there because they cannot help but returning to heroin and it has destroyed their career, the other is there because their wife found out they visited a porn site three times in the last year. See the absurdity?Absurd and false. And, frankly, I wouldn't believe the guy only visited a porn site three times in a year, he's most likely lying. Regardless, what's the point. If he's at the addiction meeting, then the assumption is he wants to change. If he's LDS then he NEEDS to change, or he's going to suffer and so is his marriage, because he can't take pleasure in sin. Do you understand this? Do you understand that members of the LDS church cannot take pleasure in sin; while the world can do this, they don't know any better, members of our church can't. Heavenly Father can't excuse transgressions or sins, they must be repented of and washed away by the blood of the Savior, through his atonement.

As for statistics, these have been posted time and time again. Your statistics are not relevant because they are for the world. They don't mean anything to LDS people, we are enlightened. We know that purposeful pornography viewing is wrong, whether it's intermittent or a regular practice.Porn USE is as high (if we define it as visiting a porn site) for younger women as it is for men. You keep forgetting this is an LDS forum, made up of mostly LDS people. Why would you share statistics for non LDS people? YOu know full well that young LDS women do not have the same rate of pornography use as non-LDS girls? Why do you promote false thinking? Duration of visits are generally longer for young men.Who cares, it's not relevant to an LDS population. So while an 18 year old woman may visit a porn site and browse for 30 minutes every other week, or a stay-at-home mom might use it to get in the mood for a date with her husband, an 18 year old man may spend hours in a week looking at it and a husband might look at it all evening after a convention lets out for the evening. And more men than women use porn as a substitute for relationships than women. However, if we define sin as doing it, rather than duration of said act, then women are as likely to be involved in this issue as men.

Fiannan, are you trying to encourage LDS men and women that pornography use is acceptable and normal? Because you know full well that the LDS church does not teach this. By suggesting this, you are promoting LDS members to sin. You are trying to excuse them and tell them that they don't need to listen to the LDS church, which teaches this is wrong, and instead, listen to the world that tells them they can look at it every other week, and use it to get 'ready' for a date with their husband, or whatever. But, you know full well that this is absolutely unacceptable for a believing LDS person to follow these worldly beliefs and practices.

Fiannan, the LDS church defines purposeful pornography viewing as WRONG--what we call transgression and even sin. The church makes no allowances for it being a simply stress reducer, or a way to spice up a boring sex life. Like all sin/transgression it needs to be overcome and repented of and then avoided.

I do not understand why you come on these Pornography threads and use your knowledge and rhetorical skills to try to influence people to take pleasure in sin.

[simpleton]

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Mathew 5
What else is there to talk about? The above short and sweet verses answers the whole problem and all the twisting and turning in the world does not change it...

So as it says " thou shalt not commit adultery"

So we all need to learn to check ourselves and learn to "Garnish" our thoughts with virtue "UNCEASINGLY".

Our flesh is an enemy to God and is carnal sensual and devilish, the whole purpose in life is to learn to subdue our passions , spirit over flesh, mind over matter.
And unless we can we shall in nowise inherit the celestial kingdom.

[brianj]

This was a great response! But I do have to question one of your assertions:

My responses;

As for statistics, these have been posted time and time again. Your statistics are not relevant because they are for the world. They don't mean anything to LDS people, we are enlightened. We know that purposeful pornography viewing is wrong, whether it's intermittent or a regular practice.Porn USE is as high (if we define it as visiting a porn site) for younger women as it is for men. You keep forgetting this is an LDS forum, made up of mostly LDS people. Why would you share statistics for non LDS people? YOu know full well that young LDS women do not have the same rate of pornography use as non-LDS girls? Why do you promote false thinking?

Fiannan pointed out that, in the world, the percentage of young women who use porn is as high as the percentage of young men who use porn. Assuming this is true, why do you think the percentage of LDS young women who use porn would be significantly lower than the percentage of LDS young men who use porn? I would expect that the percentage of active LDS using porn is significantly lower than the percentage of the general population doing so, and that's what I get from Fiannan.

To put it another way, here are some numbers that I just pulled out of the air. Let's suppose that in the general population 16-30, 70% of men and 70% of women regularly look at pornographic video, images, or text. Since, as you pointed out, LDS women don't have the same rate of pornography use as non-LDS girls (and we should expect the same for guys) let's suppose that within the LDS church 25% of males 16-30 regularly use porn. From this I would expect that about 25% of females 16-30 would be using porn. AI2.0, from your posts I infer that you would disagree with me and claim that far less than 25% of LDS females 16-30 use porn. On what do you base that assertion?

[AI2.0]

President Hinckley spoke to the Men of the church on this subject:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

Some excerpts:

I know that I am speaking directly and plainly. I do so because the Internet has made pornography more widely accessible, adding to what is available on DVDs and videos, on television and magazine stands. It leads to fantasies that are destructive of self-respect. It leads to illicit relationships, often to disease, and to abusive criminal activity.

Brethren, we can do better than this. When the Savior taught the multitude, He said, “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God” (Matt. 5:8).

Could anyone wish for a greater blessing than this? The high road of decency, of self-discipline, of wholesome living is the road for men, both young and old, who hold the priesthood of God. To the young men I put this question: “Can you imagine John the Baptist, who restored the priesthood which you hold, being engaged in any such practice as this?” To you men: “Can you imagine Peter, James, and John, Apostles of our Lord, engaging in such?”No, of course not. Now brethren, the time has come for any one of us who is so involved to pull himself out of the mire, to stand above this evil thing, to “look to God and live” (Alma 37:47). We do not have to view salacious magazines. We do not have to read books laden with smut. We do not have to watch television that is beneath wholesome standards. We do not have to rent movies that depict that which is filthy. We do not have to sit at the computer and play with pornographic material found on the Internet.

I repeat, we can do better than this. We must do better than this. We are men of the priesthood. This is a most sacred and marvelous gift, worth more than all the dross of the world. But it will be amen to the effectiveness of that priesthood for anyone who engages in the practice of seeking out pornographic material.

If there be any within the sound of my voice who are doing so, then may you plead with the Lord out of the depths of your soul that He will remove from you the addiction which enslaves you. And may you have the courage to seek the loving guidance of your bishop and, if necessary, the counsel of caring professionals.

Let any who may be in the grip of this vise get upon their knees in the privacy of their closet and plead with the Lord for help to free them from this evil monster. Otherwise, this vicious stain will continue through life and even into eternity. Jacob, the brother of Nephi, taught: “And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, … they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still” (2 Ne. 9:15–16).

I don't believe Pres. Hinckley was being mean or shaming anyone; A Prophet of God was clearly giving a warning about the dangers of pornography.

Does anyone think he was 'anti-male' because this talk was directed at only the men?

[AI2.0]

Still no thank button--Thank you.

My responses in red;

This was a great response! But I do have to question one of your assertions:

My responses;

As for statistics, these have been posted time and time again. Your statistics are not relevant because they are for the world. They don't mean anything to LDS people, we are enlightened. We know that purposeful pornography viewing is wrong, whether it's intermittent or a regular practice.Porn USE is as high (if we define it as visiting a porn site) for younger women as it is for men. You keep forgetting this is an LDS forum, made up of mostly LDS people. Why would you share statistics for non LDS people? YOu know full well that young LDS women do not have the same rate of pornography use as non-LDS girls? Why do you promote false thinking?

Fiannan pointed out that, in the world, the percentage of young women who use porn is as high as the percentage of young men who use porn. Assuming this is true,I do not assume it's true, I think it's false. I don't trust his statistics, because I don't think the percentages are the same. If you massage and manipulate the categories, but it's not a true picture. why do you think the percentage of LDS young women who use porn would be significantly lower than the percentage of LDS young men who use porn?Common sense and logic and the nature of males vs. female sexuality. I'm certain that the percentage of LDS young men is still higher than Young women. I don't have time to look up statistics and it would only confirm what I believe. I would expect that the percentage of active LDS using porn is significantly lower than the percentage of the general population doing so, and that's what I get from Fiannan.Fiannan never mentioned statistics for LDS in that post--In that post, He never mentioned that LDS pornography use was lower for LDS than Non-LDS--if anything he was suggesting the statistics are no different for LDS and non-LDS.

To put it another way, here are some numbers that I just pulled out of the air. Let's suppose that in the general population 16-30, 70% of men and 70% of women regularly look at pornographic video, images, or text. Since, as you pointed out, LDS women don't have the same rate of pornography use as non-LDS girls (and we should expect the same for guys) let's suppose that within the LDS church 25% of males 16-30 regularly use porn. From this I would expect that about 25% of females 16-30 would be using porn. AI2.0, from your posts I infer that you would disagree with me and claim that far less than 25% of LDS females 16-30 use porn. On what do you base that assertion?

Does this really matter, Brianj? Does it change anything about the nature of the evil we are discussing? If 98% of all LDS women looked at pornography, would that mean it was okay because practically everyone was doing it? If 70% of LDS women looked at it and only 30% of LDS men looked at it, would that mean it was okay? Of course not, and that's why the statistics don't matter and I could care less about them.

Truthfully, it doesn't matter because pornography viewing has been roundly condemned by our Prophets. That's what matters.

This whole thread started because someone took offense, claiming that an Ensign article was 'anti-male' because it spoke mostly about Husbands being the pornography viewer. Do you think that person who was offended would also be offended at Jesus because he also assumed that men were more likely to have this problem?

Jesus Christ warned in Matt 5:28: ..."But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." and again in D&C 63:16: "And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts They shall not have the spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear."


Jesus called out men and warned them, just as the Ensign article was written from the perspective that a man is more likely to have this problem. So, does that mean that Jesus Christ was 'anti-male'? I can't help but believe that anyone who took offense at that Ensign article, or claimed it was damaging or harmful, would also be offended by what our Savior said.

That's how utterly ridiculous this was from an LDS point of view.

[kittycat51]

"And why shouldn't it? Many leaders and parents, in an effort to prevent premarital sex among the youth, focus on how bad sexuality is. I never had a lesson describing sexuality as godly, as righteous, as an actual need to satisfy between husband and wife. Lessons about sex were like the scripture i quoted earlier, who can find a virtuous woman? her price is far above rubies. And then someone typically says that a woman who is chaste, sexually pure, is worth more than rubies.(Which means that a woman who is not chaste is worth less).

If you grow up in the church and this mentality is driven into your mind from a young age, then of course some will struggle to switch, within 24hrs, the notion that sexuality is next to murder before the wedding night, and then an essential part of your marriage the next night.

Clearly it's not a problem for everyone- I would hope that some parents and leaders do emphasize the righteousness of sex. But we should be aware that a husband can be doing everything right and his wife still resist sex and it is not his fault. Sometimes he just can't do enough chores around the house to fix it; he can be completely nonjudgmental, never show any disappointment in her, truly love her unconditionally and it won't fix it.

Sometimes it is just rooted into her brain that her worth will be diminished, she will be less than rubies, if she taps into her sexual side. She knows in her mind it's ok to have sex, but her feeling is that it's carnal, sensual, and unholy, because that's what she was always taught to associate with sex."

Granted there are many who teach the "bad sexuality" theory, but having grown up in the Church my whole life, thankfully I wasn't one of them. My parents taught "sexuality as godly, as righteous", and yes I even had YW lessons on the same principle. I'm not sure if I mentioned this in a previous thread or even this one. MOST women have messed up hormones!!!! Between birth control, pregnancy which can throw EVERYTHING off, unhealthy foods we consume, air we breath, the environment (thanks to secret combinations and all their corruptness to screw people over) it's no wonder women lose interest. I have fallen into that category. It's amazing what hormone therapy can do for a person. I wish I would not have wasted years of not fixing that problem.

Finally, someone with a solution that makes sense. #-o It's simply amazing as to how so many forum members are clairvoyant these days, or know so much about other people's sex lives.

Are you mocking me? Sorry I gave my opinion from personal observance. (I didn't think so until I saw the Homer Simpson "Doh".)