Should my wife go to bishop for porn addiction?

[djinwa]

A few more thoughts.

My boy once called from Afghanistan during his third deployment in increasingly dangerous situations like convoys. He said he was tired of deployments and wanted to get out, but his wife wanted him to keep going over there. I asked if she realized he could be killed. He said, yeah, but she said he makes good money going there.

My sister, Stake RS pres and all, was listening to the conversation, and defended his wife saying women need to have financial security. I about blew a gasket. What about my boy's security???? And in a stupid war, with no link to national security. All about money.

Where was the loyalty in marriage? You would think she would miss him on the deployments, but not if big checks coming in. And I guess if he was killed, she would get an even bigger check. And she could always marry another guy, no big deal. Just like changing jobs.

Then some years ago my niece stopped by on her way to BYUI. Said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made there when marrying her dad. Back then, her mom expected more money, but her dad couldn't handle school and dropped out. Good working with hands, but made less money and they lived in double wide trailer. Which was embarrassing for her being surrounded by more wealthy church friends. His business finally took off and she finally got a big house - now she apparently "loves" him and all is well.

I once made a general statement to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and discovered he was clueless.

Anyway, it is true that men can be very bad. We are reminded of that daily. Just good to expose some things going on behind the scenes and the hypocrisy of it all. Just like Jesus would do.

Because it turns out that while we learn about all the harm to women, men are being damaged. Countless lives are destroyed. Apparently that is not supposed to matter. Which seems to be the bottom line. Do men have a right to happiness, or are they supposed to just "man up".

[Fiannan]

djinwa, much of what you way is true. However, let us assume that there are three young women for every two of similar age men in the Church, who are active in any sense of the word. Then let us assume that around 30% of the women are as you describe - consumeristic, self-righteous, and polluted by cultural Marxism (the worse sort of profile for women is one in which they are active in Church but have absorbed a load of worldly teachings). In such cases you have a worldly-thinking woman with a God-complex, mixed with daddy issues not involving their real dads, but imaginary projections of General Authorities.
So yes, they are out there, but there are the 2/3 of women who would not fit the profile. They can be super-active, and very standards-oriented, but also filled with the love of Christ. They may be total Molly Mormons but they are loyal and forgiving, and will not turn a man into a bank machine at day and a scape-goat at night for all her problems. Others might be a bit on the rebellious side (maybe a few extra ear-rings or a tattoo or two) but still loyal to the Gospel and to their future husband. These might be the ones who ask if you like porn and then inform you of what categories they prefer. Still, the women I have met like this are generally the ones who are well versed in Gospel doctrines -- and maybe even the ones who always correct the Sunday school teacher.
The 1/3 I first mentioned still have a place in Church. They can serve missions, be in the primary and choir, and even help out with relatives and such when people need baby sitters. Let them remain single, no problem, its a buyer's market out there for active and semi-active men. Don't give up - just be careful who you are dating.

[MMbelieve]

A few more thoughts.

My boy once called from Afghanistan during his third deployment in increasingly dangerous situations like convoys. He said he was tired of deployments and wanted to get out, but his wife wanted him to keep going over there. I asked if she realized he could be killed. He said, yeah, but she said he makes good money going there.

My sister, Stake RS pres and all, was listening to the conversation, and defended his wife saying women need to have financial security. I about blew a gasket. What about my boy's security???? And in a stupid war, with no link to national security. All about money.

Where was the loyalty in marriage? You would think she would miss him on the deployments, but not if big checks coming in. And I guess if he was killed, she would get an even bigger check. And she could always marry another guy, no big deal. Just like changing jobs.

Then some years ago my niece stopped by on her way to BYUI. Said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made there when marrying her dad. Back then, her mom expected more money, but her dad couldn't handle school and dropped out. Good working with hands, but made less money and they lived in double wide trailer. Which was embarrassing for her being surrounded by more wealthy church friends. His business finally took off and she finally got a big house - now she apparently "loves" him and all is well.

I once made a general statement to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and discovered he was clueless.

Anyway, it is true that men can be very bad. We are reminded of that daily. Just good to expose some things going on behind the scenes and the hypocrisy of it all. Just like Jesus would do.

Because it turns out that while we learn about all the harm to women, men are being damaged. Countless lives are destroyed. Apparently that is not supposed to matter. Which seems to be the bottom line. Do men have a right to happiness, or are they supposed to just "man up".

Yes men deserve to be happy! Should they man up, yes!
Yes women deserve to be happy! Should they woman up, yes!

We have different roles in life. The man's role in life is to provide, protect and teach the gospel. If a man's best option for providing involves deployments nd that is what he chooses to do then why complain? Your son is chosing to remain in the military - it's his choice. Something very irritating to me is when men make a choice and blame their wives. I experienced this in my own husband. I gave him an "idea" and he proceeded with it just to blame me for his decision for years. What?? That's just dumb.

Your son can chose to not reenlist in the military and get himself a different job. Him complaining, then you complaining about her for him is wrong.

My father would deploy again "for the money" and my mother would accept a deployment "for the money". Neither find the situation ideal but it's what my father has in his pocket as a means to provide and they both accept it if it's necessary.

Men are constantly being damaged and they often times walk right into it or don't know it's happening.

Women can operate on fear and they can often approach their husbands from that angle. If men could understand this, then they wouldn't do everything their wives ask for but will take what she says as counsel or input and then use more logic and decide the best way to move forward.

Your son can take his wifes input and then chose the best solution for the entire family. Apparently, he chose that deploying was the best choice. He must own that choice. He could have been working on his future while in the military (like my brother did) and get his degree so that when he gets out, he can get a decent job with somewhat comparable pay. A man has agency and choice to decide his path, he welcomes a wife and children into his life to provide and allow for the family unit to thrive, not to be controlled by them to utter depression and misery. This is not what ls supposed to happen. Women need to be better for sure but so do the men. Blaming each other instead of helping each other never goes anywhere good.

And bad mouthing the wife of your son when she is not here to defend or speak for herself is DAMAGING to your son as well.

[brianj]

djinwa, much of what you way is true. However, let us assume that there are three young women for every two of similar age men in the Church, who are active in any sense of the word. Then let us assume that around 30% of the women are as you describe - consumeristic, self-righteous, and polluted by cultural Marxism (the worse sort of profile for women is one in which they are active in Church but have absorbed a load of worldly teachings). In such cases you have a worldly-thinking woman with a God-complex, mixed with daddy issues not involving their real dads, but imaginary projections of General Authorities.
So yes, they are out there, but there are the 2/3 of women who would not fit the profile. They can be super-active, and very standards-oriented, but also filled with the love of Christ. They may be total Molly Mormons but they are loyal and forgiving, and will not turn a man into a bank machine at day and a scape-goat at night for all her problems. Others might be a bit on the rebellious side (maybe a few extra ear-rings or a tattoo or two) but still loyal to the Gospel and to their future husband. These might be the ones who ask if you like porn and then inform you of what categories they prefer. Still, the women I have met like this are generally the ones who are well versed in Gospel doctrines -- and maybe even the ones who always correct the Sunday school teacher.
The 1/3 I first mentioned still have a place in Church. They can serve missions, be in the primary and choir, and even help out with relatives and such when people need baby sitters. Let them remain single, no problem, its a buyer's market out there for active and semi-active men. Don't give up - just be careful who you are dating.

On what do you base the claim that 2/3 of women in the church would not fit this profile?

[Fiannan]

djinwa, much of what you way is true. However, let us assume that there are three young women for every two of similar age men in the Church, who are active in any sense of the word. Then let us assume that around 30% of the women are as you describe - consumeristic, self-righteous, and polluted by cultural Marxism (the worse sort of profile for women is one in which they are active in Church but have absorbed a load of worldly teachings). In such cases you have a worldly-thinking woman with a God-complex, mixed with daddy issues not involving their real dads, but imaginary projections of General Authorities.
So yes, they are out there, but there are the 2/3 of women who would not fit the profile. They can be super-active, and very standards-oriented, but also filled with the love of Christ. They may be total Molly Mormons but they are loyal and forgiving, and will not turn a man into a bank machine at day and a scape-goat at night for all her problems. Others might be a bit on the rebellious side (maybe a few extra ear-rings or a tattoo or two) but still loyal to the Gospel and to their future husband. These might be the ones who ask if you like porn and then inform you of what categories they prefer. Still, the women I have met like this are generally the ones who are well versed in Gospel doctrines -- and maybe even the ones who always correct the Sunday school teacher.
The 1/3 I first mentioned still have a place in Church. They can serve missions, be in the primary and choir, and even help out with relatives and such when people need baby sitters. Let them remain single, no problem, its a buyer's market out there for active and semi-active men. Don't give up - just be careful who you are dating.

On what do you base the claim that 2/3 of women in the church would not fit this profile?

Merely an estimate based on observations over the years. I do believe that most LDS women are not polluted to a toxic degree by daytime TV, liberal "education," and other anti-religious/anti-biological influences.

[JohnnyL]

djinwa, much of what you way is true. However, let us assume that there are three young women for every two of similar age men in the Church, who are active in any sense of the word. Then let us assume that around 30% of the women are as you describe - consumeristic, self-righteous, and polluted by cultural Marxism (the worse sort of profile for women is one in which they are active in Church but have absorbed a load of worldly teachings). In such cases you have a worldly-thinking woman with a God-complex, mixed with daddy issues not involving their real dads, but imaginary projections of General Authorities.
So yes, they are out there, but there are the 2/3 of women who would not fit the profile. They can be super-active, and very standards-oriented, but also filled with the love of Christ. They may be total Molly Mormons but they are loyal and forgiving, and will not turn a man into a bank machine at day and a scape-goat at night for all her problems. Others might be a bit on the rebellious side (maybe a few extra ear-rings or a tattoo or two) but still loyal to the Gospel and to their future husband. These might be the ones who ask if you like porn and then inform you of what categories they prefer. Still, the women I have met like this are generally the ones who are well versed in Gospel doctrines -- and maybe even the ones who always correct the Sunday school teacher.
The 1/3 I first mentioned still have a place in Church. They can serve missions, be in the primary and choir, and even help out with relatives and such when people need baby sitters. Let them remain single, no problem, its a buyer's market out there for active and semi-active men. Don't give up - just be careful who you are dating.

Where's that fine line between "God-complex" and "filled with the love of Christ?" It's hard for some women to only have love and not the other, too.

[Gage]

A few more thoughts.

My boy once called from Afghanistan during his third deployment in increasingly dangerous situations like convoys. He said he was tired of deployments and wanted to get out, but his wife wanted him to keep going over there. I asked if she realized he could be killed. He said, yeah, but she said he makes good money going there.

My sister, Stake RS pres and all, was listening to the conversation, and defended his wife saying women need to have financial security. I about blew a gasket. What about my boy's security???? And in a stupid war, with no link to national security. All about money.

Where was the loyalty in marriage? You would think she would miss him on the deployments, but not if big checks coming in. And I guess if he was killed, she would get an even bigger check. And she could always marry another guy, no big deal. Just like changing jobs.

Then some years ago my niece stopped by on her way to BYUI. Said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made there when marrying her dad. Back then, her mom expected more money, but her dad couldn't handle school and dropped out. Good working with hands, but made less money and they lived in double wide trailer. Which was embarrassing for her being surrounded by more wealthy church friends. His business finally took off and she finally got a big house - now she apparently "loves" him and all is well.

I once made a general statement to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and discovered he was clueless.

Anyway, it is true that men can be very bad. We are reminded of that daily. Just good to expose some things going on behind the scenes and the hypocrisy of it all. Just like Jesus would do.

Because it turns out that while we learn about all the harm to women, men are being damaged. Countless lives are destroyed. Apparently that is not supposed to matter. Which seems to be the bottom line. Do men have a right to happiness, or are they supposed to just "man up".

Women fall in love with everything the man brings into the relationship, his success, not the actual man himself. Is why women are dating the next day after a divorce, well the next day after she tells you she wants a divorce. Is why your ex can act like she never knew you after she says she wants a divorce. Is why the first time you pick your kids up for your first weekend visit, she already has a man shacked up with her.

[Gage]

You don't want your wife to talk to others about porn...dont use it. That's the only control you have and input your entitled to. A man cannot hurt and betray to a degree of distress then ignore the issue or her pain and expect her to keep his secret at the expense of her own self. That's controlling and selfish.


You dont want your husband to talk to others about taking 2 hours to put on makeup... then dont take 2 hours. Did you really just compare a man telling others about their wife's makeup application time to a wife telling others about their husbands porn addiction?

[Fiannan]

You dont want your husband to talk to others about taking 2 hours to put on makeup... then dont take 2 hours. Did you really just compare a man telling others about their wife's makeup application time to a wife telling others about their husbands porn addiction?

In Britain just a couple hundred years ago women putting on makeup was seen as a form of witchcraft.

To further this notion, we can turn to the origin of the word “glamour,” which means magic, enchantment, or witchery....Depending on the witch and her practice, beauty spells and magical treatments can range from the aforementioned glamour spells, to drawing a sigil (or magic symbol) in your eyeshadow palette, to a kitchen witch whipping up a bath scrub using essential oils and herbs to celebrate the new moon.

https://hellogiggles.com/beauty/makeup/ ... onnection/

Of course makeup was seen as something prostitutes wore in many southern European and Middle Eastern societies.

Mid-1940s: As late as the 1940s, wearing a lipstick in the US was still associated with prostitution. Teenage and young girls were discouraged and barred by their parents from wearing lipsticks lest they be viewed as “loose” women. (Forman-Brunell, Miriam (2001-06-01). Girlhood in America: An Encyclopedia. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-CLIO. p. 159)

http://drishti.co/2015/07/15/history-of ... cceptance/

[MMbelieve]

And men used to wear wigs and high heels, haha.
I do wish women didn't have to make themselves more adorned with makeup and jewelry and fancy clothes. Women don't need to do that, they already have what the opposite sex wants and desires without all that extra fluff.

[MMbelieve]

A few more thoughts.

My boy once called from Afghanistan during his third deployment in increasingly dangerous situations like convoys. He said he was tired of deployments and wanted to get out, but his wife wanted him to keep going over there. I asked if she realized he could be killed. He said, yeah, but she said he makes good money going there.

My sister, Stake RS pres and all, was listening to the conversation, and defended his wife saying women need to have financial security. I about blew a gasket. What about my boy's security???? And in a stupid war, with no link to national security. All about money.

Where was the loyalty in marriage? You would think she would miss him on the deployments, but not if big checks coming in. And I guess if he was killed, she would get an even bigger check. And she could always marry another guy, no big deal. Just like changing jobs.

Then some years ago my niece stopped by on her way to BYUI. Said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made there when marrying her dad. Back then, her mom expected more money, but her dad couldn't handle school and dropped out. Good working with hands, but made less money and they lived in double wide trailer. Which was embarrassing for her being surrounded by more wealthy church friends. His business finally took off and she finally got a big house - now she apparently "loves" him and all is well.

I once made a general statement to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and discovered he was clueless.

Anyway, it is true that men can be very bad. We are reminded of that daily. Just good to expose some things going on behind the scenes and the hypocrisy of it all. Just like Jesus would do.

Because it turns out that while we learn about all the harm to women, men are being damaged. Countless lives are destroyed. Apparently that is not supposed to matter. Which seems to be the bottom line. Do men have a right to happiness, or are they supposed to just "man up".

Women fall in love with everything the man brings into the relationship, his success, not the actual man himself. Is why women are dating the next day after a divorce, well the next day after she tells you she wants a divorce. Is why your ex can act like she never knew you after she says she wants a divorce. Is why the first time you pick your kids up for your first weekend visit, she already has a man shacked up with her.

Women often fall in love with the man because when most of us marry, he has yet to have much success or money.

There will always be gold diggers out there...find yourself a plain Jane instead of the "model", then she will love you for you.

Complain about the woman you married doesn't look good on your judgement choices. Yes people can change but in general, you don't change that much.

I do not know anyone in my family or friends that do not love their husbands first. Most could care less how much he makes or how successful he is. But I can tell you, if a man is not good at romance, compassion towards wife, loyalty and commitment, being a good father that the kids actually like, honest, good hearted, then she at least has the right to expect that he makes good money and provides a good material life and security.

Often women will lower the bar if he just isn't very good at the really important stuff (the stuff that pleases her heart) and the man can be reduced to a money maker. It's sad but if he fails at the other things then he needs to at least be something.

I believe this is no different then what men say and do in their own thinking towards women.

[brianj]

Women often fall in love with the man because when most of us marry, he has yet to have much success or money.

There will always be gold diggers out there...find yourself a plain Jane instead of the "model", then she will love you for you.

Complain about the woman you married doesn't look good on your judgement choices. Yes people can change but in general, you don't change that much.

I do not know anyone in my family or friends that do not love their husbands first. Most could care less how much he makes or how successful he is. But I can tell you, if a man is not good at romance, compassion towards wife, loyalty and commitment, being a good father that the kids actually like, honest, good hearted, then she at least has the right to expect that he makes good money and provides a good material life and security.

Often women will lower the bar if he just isn't very good at the really important stuff (the stuff that pleases her heart) and the man can be reduced to a money maker. It's sad but if he fails at the other things then he needs to at least be something.

I believe this is no different then what men say and do in their own thinking towards women.

You are lucky. I have heard women speaking incredibly negatively about their husbands to other women at church. I even hear women evaluating men based on their utility over their spirituality. I guess the one good thing about being invisible to most women is that they don't mind their tongues when next to me.

And you are right, though I don't think you meant to be. Most women COULD care less how successful their husband is or how much money he earns. They could care a whole lot less. And they express that by complaining about their old car, their small house, the other woman whose husband loves her enough to take her on a cruise or a European vacation, etc. I would love to meet a woman who could not care less about those things, but I don't know that such a person exists.

[MMbelieve]

Women often fall in love with the man because when most of us marry, he has yet to have much success or money.

There will always be gold diggers out there...find yourself a plain Jane instead of the "model", then she will love you for you.

Complain about the woman you married doesn't look good on your judgement choices. Yes people can change but in general, you don't change that much.

I do not know anyone in my family or friends that do not love their husbands first. Most could care less how much he makes or how successful he is. But I can tell you, if a man is not good at romance, compassion towards wife, loyalty and commitment, being a good father that the kids actually like, honest, good hearted, then she at least has the right to expect that he makes good money and provides a good material life and security.

Often women will lower the bar if he just isn't very good at the really important stuff (the stuff that pleases her heart) and the man can be reduced to a money maker. It's sad but if he fails at the other things then he needs to at least be something.

I believe this is no different then what men say and do in their own thinking towards women.

You are lucky. I have heard women speaking incredibly negatively about their husbands to other women at church. I even hear women evaluating men based on their utility over their spirituality. I guess the one good thing about being invisible to most women is that they don't mind their tongues when next to me.

And you are right, though I don't think you meant to be. Most women COULD care less how successful their husband is or how much money he earns. They could care a whole lot less. And they express that by complaining about their old car, their small house, the other woman whose husband loves her enough to take her on a cruise or a European vacation, etc. I would love to meet a woman who could not care less about those things, but I don't know that such a person exists.

Take heart, there is one here. And I know of others. Yes, the world is in short supply of genuine men and women.
It is selfishness that is at the root of these problems from both sides. It is both men and women who do poorly, just wanted to point that out.

I have heard of the complaints women can give - I do not hear them often as I chose to not be with those type of people. I have been in a situation where I was the only woman not bad mouthing her husband to one degree or another - I was happy with my behavior even though it was glanced over by my spouse and seemingly un-appreciated.
I wonder if it's how women "bond", I don't know - I don't bond well with the average female.

Unfortunately, we each have a lot in life to bear. This life is hard. Men don't like to hear of a house or car or whatever and women don't like to see the glances at other women or the excuses for porn or infidelity or the dismissal of her emotional needs.

Some people love more deeply and respect more deeply than others, some care for matters of the heart and for futures beyond this short journey. What I see as sad is when a very decent person finds themselves with a less than loyal and disrespectful spouse. It is them that suffer the most.
And unfortunately opposites do attract.. so many find themselves in difficult marriages.

Someday when this valley of tears is over, those good souls will find each other and be happy together.

[Gage]

A few more thoughts.

My boy once called from Afghanistan during his third deployment in increasingly dangerous situations like convoys. He said he was tired of deployments and wanted to get out, but his wife wanted him to keep going over there. I asked if she realized he could be killed. He said, yeah, but she said he makes good money going there.

My sister, Stake RS pres and all, was listening to the conversation, and defended his wife saying women need to have financial security. I about blew a gasket. What about my boy's security???? And in a stupid war, with no link to national security. All about money.

Where was the loyalty in marriage? You would think she would miss him on the deployments, but not if big checks coming in. And I guess if he was killed, she would get an even bigger check. And she could always marry another guy, no big deal. Just like changing jobs.

Then some years ago my niece stopped by on her way to BYUI. Said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made there when marrying her dad. Back then, her mom expected more money, but her dad couldn't handle school and dropped out. Good working with hands, but made less money and they lived in double wide trailer. Which was embarrassing for her being surrounded by more wealthy church friends. His business finally took off and she finally got a big house - now she apparently "loves" him and all is well.

I once made a general statement to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and discovered he was clueless.

Anyway, it is true that men can be very bad. We are reminded of that daily. Just good to expose some things going on behind the scenes and the hypocrisy of it all. Just like Jesus would do.

Because it turns out that while we learn about all the harm to women, men are being damaged. Countless lives are destroyed. Apparently that is not supposed to matter. Which seems to be the bottom line. Do men have a right to happiness, or are they supposed to just "man up".

Women fall in love with everything the man brings into the relationship, his success, not the actual man himself. Is why women are dating the next day after a divorce, well the next day after she tells you she wants a divorce. Is why your ex can act like she never knew you after she says she wants a divorce. Is why the first time you pick your kids up for your first weekend visit, she already has a man shacked up with her.

Women often fall in love with the man because when most of us marry, he has yet to have much success or money.

There will always be gold diggers out there...find yourself a plain Jane instead of the "model", then she will love you for you.

Complain about the woman you married doesn't look good on your judgement choices. Yes people can change but in general, you don't change that much.

I do not know anyone in my family or friends that do not love their husbands first. Most could care less how much he makes or how successful he is. But I can tell you, if a man is not good at romance, compassion towards wife, loyalty and commitment, being a good father that the kids actually like, honest, good hearted, then she at least has the right to expect that he makes good money and provides a good material life and security.

Often women will lower the bar if he just isn't very good at the really important stuff (the stuff that pleases her heart) and the man can be reduced to a money maker. It's sad but if he fails at the other things then he needs to at least be something.

I believe this is no different then what men say and do in their own thinking towards women.

Maybe a young girl marries a guy that just finished law school and passed the bar, or a guy just about finished with his residency. Ok is he rich yet, probably not, but you get the picture. Most women are not hanging out at the KFC waiting for the cooks to clock out so they can hang out. An 18 year old girl may not be thinking about money or 20 years down the road, so yes she might marry a young man just starting out for the love and excitement of getting out of her parents house and independence, but sadly in 10 years when reality strikes, if the husband aint providing above and beyond she will find someone that will. Do not tell me when you where shopping for a husband you asked around to find out where the poor guys hung out.

[Fiannan]

I wonder sometimes if some of the problems associated with marriage today may stem from buying into the trade-em-in ethic promoted by consumeristic culture that has infected too many Mormons. I recall working with youth in the 1990s and there was this vile doctrine being promoted (not by the Church but in the Church) that one should date as many people as possible or else you may wind up settling on someone you don't really want. I saw young women who had formed steady relationships with young men who they had grown up with suddenly break up. And maybe an attitude of seeing another human being as a commodity began to develop. Also harmful was the outcome of young people constantly falling in love and then breaking up, or getting dumped. This builds a hardness of heart towards the opposite sex.

Yeah, we condemn the "old days" of high-school sweethearts getting together and such but it seems that marriages were better then than they are now. Things today are mechanistic at best. And people seem to look for victimhood. So overall, who planted these seeds of contention in the human family? It sure was not God.

[Fiannan]

Do not tell me when you where shopping for a husband you asked around to find out where the poor guys hung out.

Actually the ideal man for a consumeristic Mormon woman to marry is the ideal of TV society: A rich gay man.

[MMbelieve]

A few more thoughts.

My boy once called from Afghanistan during his third deployment in increasingly dangerous situations like convoys. He said he was tired of deployments and wanted to get out, but his wife wanted him to keep going over there. I asked if she realized he could be killed. He said, yeah, but she said he makes good money going there.

My sister, Stake RS pres and all, was listening to the conversation, and defended his wife saying women need to have financial security. I about blew a gasket. What about my boy's security???? And in a stupid war, with no link to national security. All about money.

Where was the loyalty in marriage? You would think she would miss him on the deployments, but not if big checks coming in. And I guess if he was killed, she would get an even bigger check. And she could always marry another guy, no big deal. Just like changing jobs.

Then some years ago my niece stopped by on her way to BYUI. Said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made there when marrying her dad. Back then, her mom expected more money, but her dad couldn't handle school and dropped out. Good working with hands, but made less money and they lived in double wide trailer. Which was embarrassing for her being surrounded by more wealthy church friends. His business finally took off and she finally got a big house - now she apparently "loves" him and all is well.

I once made a general statement to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and discovered he was clueless.

Anyway, it is true that men can be very bad. We are reminded of that daily. Just good to expose some things going on behind the scenes and the hypocrisy of it all. Just like Jesus would do.

Because it turns out that while we learn about all the harm to women, men are being damaged. Countless lives are destroyed. Apparently that is not supposed to matter. Which seems to be the bottom line. Do men have a right to happiness, or are they supposed to just "man up".

Women fall in love with everything the man brings into the relationship, his success, not the actual man himself. Is why women are dating the next day after a divorce, well the next day after she tells you she wants a divorce. Is why your ex can act like she never knew you after she says she wants a divorce. Is why the first time you pick your kids up for your first weekend visit, she already has a man shacked up with her.

Women often fall in love with the man because when most of us marry, he has yet to have much success or money.

There will always be gold diggers out there...find yourself a plain Jane instead of the "model", then she will love you for you.

Complain about the woman you married doesn't look good on your judgement choices. Yes people can change but in general, you don't change that much.

I do not know anyone in my family or friends that do not love their husbands first. Most could care less how much he makes or how successful he is. But I can tell you, if a man is not good at romance, compassion towards wife, loyalty and commitment, being a good father that the kids actually like, honest, good hearted, then she at least has the right to expect that he makes good money and provides a good material life and security.

Often women will lower the bar if he just isn't very good at the really important stuff (the stuff that pleases her heart) and the man can be reduced to a money maker. It's sad but if he fails at the other things then he needs to at least be something.

I believe this is no different then what men say and do in their own thinking towards women.

Maybe a young girl marries a guy that just finished law school and passed the bar, or or a guy just about finished with his residency. Ok is he rich yet, probably not, but you get the picture. Most women are not hanging out at the KFC waiting for the cooks to clock out so they can hang out. An 18 year old girl may not be thinking about money and 20 years down the road, she might marry for the love of getting out of her parents house and independence, but sadly in 10 years when reality strikes, if the husband aint providing above and beyond she will find someone that will. Do not tell me when you where shopping for a husband you asked around to find out where the poor guys hung out.

You've got the mentality backwards. It should be the men shopping around to find a wife not the women hanging around work places to pick a husband. Your putting all the blame/expectation onto a woman.

Women don't line up at KFC to find a husband because its teenagers that usually work there.

Saying she married him after law school and passing the bar and marrying after he is finished with residency...those are both very nicely chosen to fit your idea. Both are many years of school beyond a bachelors. My sister will not be finished with residency until she is 38. People marry long before that.

For the record, a wife expecting her husband to provide is not a bad thing. God expects him to provide too. A wife depends on her husband to work and he depends on her to bear and raise children. A wife saying her car is old could be either saying she's embarrassed and wants a newer car or she could be saying I want a more reliable car for me and the children so I feel safer.

Men often mis understand women and that could contribute to many issues especially men reading into things too much. A woman should be able to say she likes a house that is not hers without the man thinking she is expecting him to buy it or taking it personal as he doesn't make enough money. All because she said she liked a house? Why don't you say you like the house too and dream for a moment then both go happily back to your day?

Another example is speaking of the budget, women can say something about the budget and the husband begins raging because he takes that as he doesn't make enough money. This is an example of men taking out their issues on their wife.
A woman telling her husband that the budget needs attention is not doing anything wrong. He should be doing the budget too. But she is left with it because he inappropriately controls the situation with his own feeling of inadequacy.
Budgets need to happen, there is nothing wrong with sticking to a budget, it's smart and she's being respectful by ensuring that his money goes as far as it can.

If a man already feels inadequate, then can a woman ever say anything without him taking it as a personal insult, even seemingly innocent and normal statements? Not likely because he is looking for proof of his feelings of inadequacy and feeds those feelings himself.
This is of course speaking of a woman who is not a heartless gold digger. But a heartless gold digger wouldn't likely be concerned with doing a budget anyway.

There are many instances where the perception is off and things are misinterpreted. I bring this up to show that it is possible that some men bring this mentality upon themselves and it's not actually the wife placing this expectation, it's him himself that brought it.

[MMbelieve]

Do not tell me when you where shopping for a husband you asked around to find out where the poor guys hung out.

Actually the ideal man for a consumeristic Mormon woman to marry is the ideal of TV society: A rich gay man.

I'm sure a rich Gay man would want nothing to do with a vain mormon woman, haha

[Gage]

Saying she married him after law school and passing the bar and marrying after he is finished with residency...those are both very nicely chosen to fit your idea. Both are many years of school beyond a bachelors. My sister will not be finished with residency until she is 38. People marry long before that.

For the record, a wife expecting her husband to provide is not a bad thing. God expects him to provide too. A wife depends on her husband to work and he depends on her to bear and raise children. A wife saying her car is old could be either saying she's embarrassed and wants a newer car or she could be saying I want a more reliable car for me and the children so I feel safer.

Men often mis understand women and that could contribute to many issues especially men reading into things too much. A woman should be able to say she likes a house that is not hers without the man thinking she is expecting him to buy it or taking it personal as he doesn't make enough money. All because she said she liked a house? Why don't you say you like the house too and dream for a moment then both go happily back to your day?

Another example is speaking of the budget, women can say something about the budget and the husband begins raging because he takes that as he doesn't make enough money. This is an example of men taking out their issues on their wife.
A woman telling her husband that the budget needs attention is not doing anything wrong. He should be doing the budget too. But she is left with it because he inappropriately controls the situation with his own feeling of inadequacy.
Budgets need to happen, there is nothing wrong with sticking to a budget, it's smart and she's being respectful by ensuring that his money goes as far as it can.

If a man already feels inadequate, then can a woman ever say anything without him taking it as a personal insult, even seemingly innocent and normal statements? Not likely because he is looking for proof of his feelings of inadequacy and feeds those feelings himself.
This is of course speaking of a woman who is not a heartless gold digger. But a heartless gold digger wouldn't likely be concerned with doing a budget anyway.

There are many instances where the perception is off and things are misinterpreted. I bring this up to show that it is possible that some men bring this mentality upon themselves and it's not actually the wife placing this expectation, it's him himself that brought it.
[/quote]





You just described every woman on the planet with your statement about men. Here let me correct it for you "then can a MAN ever say anything without HER taking it as a personal insult, even seemingly innocent and normal statements?

[MMbelieve]

Saying she married him after law school and passing the bar and marrying after he is finished with residency...those are both very nicely chosen to fit your idea. Both are many years of school beyond a bachelors. My sister will not be finished with residency until she is 38. People marry long before that.

For the record, a wife expecting her husband to provide is not a bad thing. God expects him to provide too. A wife depends on her husband to work and he depends on her to bear and raise children. A wife saying her car is old could be either saying she's embarrassed and wants a newer car or she could be saying I want a more reliable car for me and the children so I feel safer.

Men often mis understand women and that could contribute to many issues especially men reading into things too much. A woman should be able to say she likes a house that is not hers without the man thinking she is expecting him to buy it or taking it personal as he doesn't make enough money. All because she said she liked a house? Why don't you say you like the house too and dream for a moment then both go happily back to your day?

Another example is speaking of the budget, women can say something about the budget and the husband begins raging because he takes that as he doesn't make enough money. This is an example of men taking out their issues on their wife.
A woman telling her husband that the budget needs attention is not doing anything wrong. He should be doing the budget too. But she is left with it because he inappropriately controls the situation with his own feeling of inadequacy.
Budgets need to happen, there is nothing wrong with sticking to a budget, it's smart and she's being respectful by ensuring that his money goes as far as it can.

If a man already feels inadequate, then can a woman ever say anything without him taking it as a personal insult, even seemingly innocent and normal statements? Not likely because he is looking for proof of his feelings of inadequacy and feeds those feelings himself.
This is of course speaking of a woman who is not a heartless gold digger. But a heartless gold digger wouldn't likely be concerned with doing a budget anyway.

There are many instances where the perception is off and things are misinterpreted. I bring this up to show that it is possible that some men bring this mentality upon themselves and it's not actually the wife placing this expectation, it's him himself that brought it.

You just described every woman on the planet with your statement about men. Here let me correct it for you "then can a MAN ever say anything without HER taking it as a personal insult, even seemingly innocent and normal statements?
[/quote]

Depends on the person. It's not a matter of women or men it's people. If someone has a sore spot and it gets poked, they are likely to get offended or take it personal.

It's not a matter of can someone say something without it being a personal insult. What is it that the man is wanting to say? Something hurtful or something she would find hurtful? It's really just a shot in the dark at what sore spots everyone has. If it's personal then be kind or don't say it. Goes for both parties. If it's not personal but they take it as such then it's their problem not yours and you can realize that and still be kind.

Telling a woman she takes to dang long to get ready will not get a good response 9.9/10 times. Because that was made personal against her with the use of "you". Find a more creative way than saying "you".

A budget is not a personal attack on men. But I know far too many who cannot even handle the thought of the budget because they are not well off financially. If a woman says "you" in regards to the lack of money then it's personal.

People are just too rude these days and also too sensitive.

If your wife is chubby or out of shape, don't tell her she's lazy and if she would only this or that...go find an activity to do together and make your wife's health a possitive thing, even get your children involved.

If your husband doesn't make enough money, get creative with the budget and make things last longer and find a way to bring in some money yourself. Telling him that he sucks as a provider will not get a good response 9.9/10 times. But supplementing him with your efforts uplifts and supports.

Hopefully in each case, the spouse is receptive. Unfortunately the longer we leave problems unresolved, the less likely they are to be fixed.

Oh...and if my last post described every woman then perhaps there is something there worth evaluating. If every woman says it, then there is obviously something to it that men don't see or understand. And vise versa.

[HappyCamper8]

For the record, a wife expecting her husband to provide is not a bad thing. God expects him to provide too. A wife depends on her husband to work and he depends on her to bear and raise children.

I agree with this statement. The church teaches that we share these responsibilities. There are talks mentioning specifically that men should be helping around the house. Changing diapers, doing dishes, laundry, cleaning bathrooms etc... working side by side with their spouse. No job is too menial etc.

It's easy to see how men can share in these duties and responsibilities.

How do you (not MMbelieve in particular, but anybody) see how women can share in these responsibilities as a stay at home mother? Isn't it rather one-sided or should stay at home mothers find a part time job when the man gets home in order to share all the responsibilities? I'm sure somebody will get offended at my question and call it sarcasm as seems to be the pattern here, but it's a serious question.

[MMbelieve]

For the record, a wife expecting her husband to provide is not a bad thing. God expects him to provide too. A wife depends on her husband to work and he depends on her to bear and raise children.

I agree with this statement. The church teaches that we share these responsibilities. There are talks mentioning specifically that men should be helping around the house. Changing diapers, doing dishes, laundry, cleaning bathrooms etc... working side by side with their spouse. No job is too menial etc.

It's easy to see how men can share in these duties and responsibilities.

How do you (not MMbelieve in particular, but anybody) see how women can share in these responsibilities as a stay at home mother? Isn't it rather one-sided or should stay at home mothers find a part time job when the man gets home in order to share all the responsibilities? I'm sure somebody will get offended at my question and call it sarcasm as seems to be the pattern here, but it's a serious question.

There are many things a woman does to help with the finances of the home. If she cooks at home it saves $. If she plans ahead and gets food on sales it saves $. If she can mend clothing it saves $. If, when she shops, she finds deals or thrift store clothing for the children and her self - it saves $.

I personally have done all these things as well as manage the budget and be sure bills are paid on time. I have done many things with the debt to save on interest etc. Turn the heat down to save $, go without the niceties for myself and teach my children to live happily with what they do have and work for extras that they want.
Pack my husband lunches so he doesn't spend willy nilly on snacks and expensive meals.
In addition to the home mamagement, I have taken jobs such as grading online that gives 1k here and there. I have started a business to not only buy the things we "want" at wholesale but also to sell. I have done virtual assisting tasks grossing 3k in 6 weeks time etc. A woman doesn't need to have a steady paycheck to be helpful, any $10 I bring in is $10 we didn't have before. Plus, it's very sweet when I get to treat my husband with the $ I have made. Or buy my child nice winter clothing or buy a dinner to celebrate etc.

I also homeschool so it is possible to still make money whether children are home or at school.

In this world, there is endless possibilities to share in the duties of "providing". The internet offers many opportunities and no I don't mean the "make $60/hour work at home junk". I am always searching and jump at the chance to do something. I do it for myself as well to help me feel better and more useful (it makes me a happier woman).
Many things a woman does is not bringing in $ but making his paycheck work and do as much good as possible.

A woman who doesn't share in the responsibility to utilize and even make $ is a foolish woman. It brings great satisfaction and lessens the burden on our husbands much like him coming home and helping with things she has been doing or meaning to do.

A mans duty to go out and work is given him and he should desire to do that to the best of his ability. A womans duty is to give birth and raise children. He cannot give birth other than that, we both are capable of everything else.

A woman should have an investment of herself in her own life, not expecting the husband to just carry it all by himself. Much like a husband should invest of himself in the home and the children.

I also do not believe that the house duties of cleaning up after everyone is solely a female duty. A womans role is to grow and produce and nurture children (a full time job). It doesn't bring $ so I sometimes wonder if that is why it is not valued as much as a paycheck

If a man doesn't have a wife, who cleans his house? Who scrubbs his toilet? He does. Gaining a wife doesn't mean you gain a servant or maid, you gain children and companionship. We share in the home duties and that's the way it should be.

I know there are women out there like me who sincerely give a care about their husband and children and are simple in all ways avoiding the vanities and materialism. Perhaps I am more rare that I would like to believe. I know women have it in them to do well and help provide.

Ultimately, couples need to do what works best for them.

[brianj]

MMbelieve, thank you for your contribution to this thread. You give me reason to hope that the type of person I most desperately want to find really does exist.

[JohnnyL]

For the record, a wife expecting her husband to provide is not a bad thing. God expects him to provide too. A wife depends on her husband to work and he depends on her to bear and raise children. A wife saying her car is old could be either saying she's embarrassed and wants a newer car or she could be saying I want a more reliable car for me and the children so I feel safer.

Men often mis understand women and that could contribute to many issues especially men reading into things too much. A woman should be able to say she likes a house that is not hers without the man thinking she is expecting him to buy it or taking it personal as he doesn't make enough money. All because she said she liked a house? Why don't you say you like the house too and dream for a moment then both go happily back to your day?

Another example is speaking of the budget, women can say something about the budget and the husband begins raging because he takes that as he doesn't make enough money. This is an example of men taking out their issues on their wife.
A woman telling her husband that the budget needs attention is not doing anything wrong. He should be doing the budget too. But she is left with it because he inappropriately controls the situation with his own feeling of inadequacy.
Budgets need to happen, there is nothing wrong with sticking to a budget, it's smart and she's being respectful by ensuring that his money goes as far as it can.

If a man already feels inadequate, then can a woman ever say anything without him taking it as a personal insult, even seemingly innocent and normal statements? Not likely because he is looking for proof of his feelings of inadequacy and feeds those feelings himself.
This is of course speaking of a woman who is not a heartless gold digger. But a heartless gold digger wouldn't likely be concerned with doing a budget anyway.

There are many instances where the perception is off and things are misinterpreted. I bring this up to show that it is possible that some men bring this mentality upon themselves and it's not actually the wife placing this expectation, it's him himself that brought it.

Completely agree. Though in many cases, the genders are reversed.

[JohnnyL]

I wonder sometimes if some of the problems associated with marriage today may stem from buying into the trade-em-in ethic promoted by consumeristic culture that has infected too many Mormons. I recall working with youth in the 1990s and there was this vile doctrine being promoted (not by the Church but in the Church) that one should date as many people as possible or else you may wind up settling on someone you don't really want. I saw young women who had formed steady relationships with young men who they had grown up with suddenly break up. And maybe an attitude of seeing another human being as a commodity began to develop. Also harmful was the outcome of young people constantly falling in love and then breaking up, or getting dumped. This builds a hardness of heart towards the opposite sex.

Yeah, we condemn the "old days" of high-school sweethearts getting together and such but it seems that marriages were better then than they are now. Things today are mechanistic at best. And people seem to look for victimhood. So overall, who planted these seeds of contention in the human family? It sure was not God.

I kind of agree with this. If a couple is in love and it's good, why break up?