Should my wife go to bishop for porn addiction?

[Fiannan]

By the way, while this is not an article in a scientific journal (I've posted them in the past, plenty of times) this should break some stereotypes being thrown around here. You see, most women watch porn too, and what the article says is "soft core" is, if they go by the descriptions generally associated with pornography, that means regular scenes of sex between a man and woman, three people or a woman and woman; what is often called "whitebread porn."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... g-own.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Elizabeth]

Well I am not amongst the "most women" they refer to, and who are they to know what "most women" do.

[Melissa]

Well I am not amongst the "most women" they refer to, and who are they to know what "most women" do.

They have to say most women because men are tired of being singled out over porn. They also somehow think that 2 wrongs make a right. So if women watch it too, it lessens the seriousness of them doing it. It does not, however, minimize the pain a spouse feels.

I was always taught 2 wrongs don't make a right. If women watch at the same degree as men, it means we're that much worse off.

[Melissa]

By the way, while this is not an article in a scientific journal (I've posted them in the past, plenty of times) this should break some stereotypes being thrown around here. You see, most women watch porn too, and what the article says is "soft core" is, if they go by the descriptions generally associated with pornography, that means regular scenes of sex between a man and woman, three people or a woman and woman; what is often called "whitebread porn."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... g-own.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I have to conclude that if most women watch porn too, then it proves that women are visual creatures too and all the excuses men put out for their susceptibility to porn is no longer a valid reason cause women are the same way.

If your going to blow a stereotype let's blow them all. I say women are really not that different than men regarding sex.

[setyourselffree]

I would not care if my wife read books with sex scenes in them, if it meant I was having more sex. Watching porn would be an issue.

[Melissa]

I would not care if my wife read books with sex scenes in them, if it meant I was having more sex. Watching porn would be an issue.

I don't read stuff like that or watch porn but it seems to me that a woman being exposed to something sexual in thought would cause her to want to experience her husband (not replace or use him) because that is her natural focus, to please him and be with him. Women don't view things the same as men do or react the same ways. Women by nature have their desire to their husband. I could be wrong for every woman but that is naturally how women are as I understand it to be.

A guy using visual porn is a problem because it replaces the wife with another woman or women and he is having "extra" sexual experiences without her. I believe that is the main issue. It's a slap in the face to her.

The man viewing porn = man's sexual energies being spent on someone else and that is a betrayal to a wife. She wants to keep it within the marriage and he sees little issue with breaking that expectation she believes a husband has too.

Everyone seems to believe it's all the visual things (comparison of porn women to wife) that a wife has a problem with and calls her insecure and jealous...I say that is not the root issue but is a byproduct that does/can happen. The issue is her being replaced and not respected for the role she plays in his life being the wife.

A woman wants to know she has his body, mind and heart with her and no other women can have it. The man wants the exact same thing. No difference there.

Men have no business watching porn and neither do women. If you have a spouse, that is your focus not your sexual selfishness. If a couple cannot have a normal sexual marriage then there is a problem and needs some attention to fix and repair. No one should be using porn simply because they are married but don't know how to be with their spouse.

[AI2.0]

A woman "should" be to her husband as a man "should" be to Christ ....

If Christ was a man's first and foremost love then a woman would have a real true man to look up to and visa versa... although the true man that follows Christ is the leader in the home or at least should be ... but when the marriage descend into depravity, corruption and immorality unless their is some speedy repentance ( which by the way means to stop completely whatever it is that you are doing that is wrong) the marriage is toast....

Do you really think that the noble spirits in heaven waiting to partake of a body want to go into the family's of porn addicts? I wouldn't think so.
This childish battling over he did this and she did that is like a bunch of 2 year olds...

Wake up men and be men , men of the most High God.... and wake up women and be women of the most High God..

That is what we should be doing , but it starts with us as individuals. I am not pointing fingers here as I include myself in this observation... just some thinking..

A Godly man would never look upon God's children the way men look at women in porn. That is not a Godly man.
And members of this church have the priesthood and go on missions and marry in the temple. The fact that we have so many wordy issues within our male/female members brings shame to the whole church body.

A woman blames a man and she is punished and shamed by being called a man hater, bitter, femanist etc.

Men are now blaming women for their every lack of not meeting the bar...

This is one issue I have with the church handling porn. I think they are being soft about it and kind about it because it's such a problem and they don't want people to become offended. But if they preached hell fire truth about pornography and lust and told the truth, maybe it would wake people up?

Everything is pretty sugar coated in the church right bow as to not cause offence...someday it won't be so sugar coated.

I fully believe a man who's married in the temple who "uses" porn should receive church discipline because he has broken his marriage covenants he made and the woman has the right to leave the marriage if she chooses on the grounds of breaking the moral covenant between him and his wife.

Oh...so harsh right? Is it really?

You are right. If you listen to the talks over the last 15 years which talk about pornography, you will see that they have softened their stance. The most recent Ensign shows this clearly. It's not that church leaders don't think it's a problem, I think it's because they've come to the horrible realization that it's an epidemic among LDS men and they don't want it to also bring about an epidemic of broken homes! If they acknowledge the seriousness that the man has violated his marriage covenants, more marriages will break up. If they treat it as an addiction and something to be overcome, there is more hope the wife will work with her husband to try to save the marriage.

I think they are fearful of the fall out of a huge spike in divorces--children without a father in the home, I think they are recognizing that this is a tragedy that must be avoided if possible, if marriages are to be saved. You are absolutely right, it is an outright violation of covenants and it is betrayal of the spouse and the marriage vows. An active porn user should not be exercising his priesthood, taking sacrament or attending temple, and ought to realize what a horrible thing he has done to his wife, but most of them are in denial (you see examples of this on this very forum--it's obvious we have active porn users on the forum and they are very resentful of their wives and scornful of women in general).

If the church treated pornography viewing(virtual adultery) in the same category as actual adultery, then we'd see tons of separations and divorces. But, the leaders would rather save marriages which might be salvageable, if possible. That means appealing to the victimized spouse and trying to get her to remain in the marriage and work with their husband to try to keep the family together--and give him more chances before using church discipline. While I completely agree that this is a serious problem, I still agree with CHurch leaders to try to encourage wives to stay in the marriage and try to help their husbands overcome their addiction--only ending the marriage if the husband acts out by having an affair or paying prostitutes or molesting or abusing.

It's in the family's best interest to try to save the marriage whenever possible.

[AI2.0]

It is common for women to report their husband's porn problem to the bishop, and tell family and friends. Wondering if I should do the same with my wife.

She watches at least 5 hours of shows each night with her fantasy men on them - mostly the tough cop type. Makes me feel insecure not being as tough as them. Then she retires to bed and reads books with the same kinds of guys in them.

I should have known she had this addiction. When we were dating, she had a poster of Tom Selleck on her wall, until I asked her to take it down. Apparently, though, she keeps having relapses and fantasizing about other men.

All the problems with porn addiction are evident. The blood and gore on her shows are terrible. Children can potentially see it as it is on primetime TV. Health problems from sitting so much. And of course, it is damaging our relationship - time away from me, and also makes for unrealistic expectations of me. I'm supposed to be tough and rich and famous like all her fantasy men.

So I'm assuming I should report her to the bishop and tell as many people I can, and hopefully with some church disciplinary action and pressure from members, she can overcome her addiction? Not sure if our marriage can be saved otherwise.

After reading this, all I can say is, I'm sure feel sorry for your wife.

Your wife is not addicted to porn, you...on the other hand, I'm not so sure of. You seem awfully resentful and angry at her watching TV and your totally inappropriate attempt to equate TV watching with pornography is disturbing and offensive to those who know what it's like to have this pernicious evil in their marriage.

I don't know if there's any hope for a happy, harmonious marriage between you two, but if there is, it will come through repentance and forgiveness--on your part. Do you have the cajones to own up to your immature, self-centered, unloving attitudes you are nurturing with this sillyness? You do realize that a temple marriage does not force your wife to remain with you in the eternities? She still has a choice and if you made her miserable in life, why would she ever want to remain with you after death?

You wouldn't know it, but having a spouse addicted to actual pornography is a very traumatic, ongoing, horrible strain on a marriage. It's a betrayal of the most intimate part of the bond between husband and wife. It's a violation of temple vows for those sealed in temple. The fall out from this is horrific and ruins lives, destroying the self esteem of the person you vowed to cherish. It's no wonder that some desperate women turn to trusted family or a Bishop for guidance in what to do, I personally think it's best not to tell anyone, but leave it up to the addicted person when and whom to tell, but I don't condemn those who choose to find outside help. Of course, you only see it as punitive and vicious on a wife's part. That's the self centered, immature side of you--the weaknesses you ought to be trying to overcome so your wife will actually WANT to spend time with you. When you act in such a manner, it's no wonder she spends hours a night escaping into TV and books rather than interact with you.

But, in answer to your question. Yes. Please, do report her to the Bishop. Maybe he can talk some sense into you or get you some professional counseling.

[Finrock]

Well I am not amongst the "most women" they refer to, and who are they to know what "most women" do.

They have to say most women because men are tired of being singled out over porn. They also somehow think that 2 wrongs make a right. So if women watch it too, it lessens the seriousness of them doing it. It does not, however, minimize the pain a spouse feels.

I was always taught 2 wrongs don't make a right. If women watch at the same degree as men, it means we're that much worse off.

I don't think the motivation here is to say that two wrongs make a right, but I believe this is a response to the false notion that is often repeated that only or mostly men have a porn problem. A man is affected by their wife's infidelity just like a wife is affected by their husband's infidelity. It isn't just women who are the victims in this. There are many men who are also victims. The language and the presentation of pornography and infidelity in relationships has been historically skewed against men. At church and when this topic comes up it has historically been presented as if it is just a problem men have and/or that it is only women who are suffering because of their husbands looking at porn or husbands being unfaithful.

Perhaps they have to say "most" women is because that is what the studies bare out?

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Well I am not amongst the "most women" they refer to, and who are they to know what "most women" do.

They have to say most women because men are tired of being singled out over porn. They also somehow think that 2 wrongs make a right. So if women watch it too, it lessens the seriousness of them doing it. It does not, however, minimize the pain a spouse feels.

I was always taught 2 wrongs don't make a right. If women watch at the same degree as men, it means we're that much worse off.

I don't think the motivation here is to say that two wrongs make a right, but I believe this is a response to the false notion that is often repeated that only or mostly men have a porn problem. A man is affected by their wife's infidelity just like a wife is affected by their husband's infidelity. It isn't just women who are the victims in this. There are many men who are also victims. The language and the presentation of pornography and infidelity in relationships has been historically skewed against men. At church and when this topic comes up it has historically been presented as if it is just a problem men have and/or that it is only women who are suffering because of their husbands looking at porn or husbands being unfaithful.

Perhaps they have to say "most" women is because that is what the studies bare out?

-Finrock

No one ever said it was 'only' men who indulge in pornography, but it's not a false notion it more often affects men--especially among the LDS communities.

I wouldn't give any weight to Fiannan's suspicious statistics. He's always veering these pornography/infidelity threads off into his puerile proclivities about women being as skanky and perverted as men..not sure exactly why. I don't think anyone denies that women are not vulnerable as well, but the fact is men are more likely to be addicted than women. It's discussed as mostly a problem for men, because it IS mostly a problem for men--among LDS, which is what we're discussing. And, if you read the article in the recent Ensign, you'll be happy to see they don't present it as only being something that men struggle with.

Unfortunately, as it becomes more common in society and more men are affected, more women will become involved with it also.

[Finrock]

Well I am not amongst the "most women" they refer to, and who are they to know what "most women" do.

They have to say most women because men are tired of being singled out over porn. They also somehow think that 2 wrongs make a right. So if women watch it too, it lessens the seriousness of them doing it. It does not, however, minimize the pain a spouse feels.

I was always taught 2 wrongs don't make a right. If women watch at the same degree as men, it means we're that much worse off.

I don't think the motivation here is to say that two wrongs make a right, but I believe this is a response to the false notion that is often repeated that only or mostly men have a porn problem. A man is affected by their wife's infidelity just like a wife is affected by their husband's infidelity. It isn't just women who are the victims in this. There are many men who are also victims. The language and the presentation of pornography and infidelity in relationships has been historically skewed against men. At church and when this topic comes up it has historically been presented as if it is just a problem men have and/or that it is only women who are suffering because of their husbands looking at porn or husbands being unfaithful.

Perhaps they have to say "most" women is because that is what the studies bare out?

-Finrock

No one ever said it was 'only' men who indulge in pornography, but it's not a false notion it more often affects men--especially among the LDS communities.

I wouldn't give any weight to Fiannan's suspicious statistics. He's always veering these pornography/infidelity threads off into his puerile proclivities about women being as skanky and perverted as men..not sure exactly why. I don't think anyone denies that women are not vulnerable as well, but the fact is men are more likely to be addicted than women. It's discussed as mostly a problem for men, because it IS mostly a problem for men--among LDS, which is what we're discussing. And, if you read the article in the recent Ensign, you'll be happy to see they don't present it as only being something that men struggle with.

Unfortunately, as it becomes more common in society and more men are affected, more women will become involved with it also.

It's not Fiannan's statistics. Some 7 or 8 years ago our Stake had a special effort to address the pornography issue in the Church. Based on statistics the Church had, it was estimated that some 60% of men have or have had a problem with pornography in the Church. It was also revealed that some 40% of women in the Church also have or had a problem. It was speculated that this was likely higher because of the shame factor and because women are less inclined, it seems, to admit or report that they have a problem with pornography. There are also other studies that have nothing to do with the Church that indicates that women are just as interested in pornography as men, albeit in different forms or ways.

The bias has been skewed towards men in the Church, but the reality is much different. When I was saying it "only affects men" I was saying that the bias has been that it most often affects men, but studies don't bare this out.

The fact is that men can be harmed by the sexual and the emotional infidelity of their wives. It isn't just women in the Church who are victims to the issue of pornography and infidelity.

-Finrock

[setyourselffree]

They have to say most women because men are tired of being singled out over porn. They also somehow think that 2 wrongs make a right. So if women watch it too, it lessens the seriousness of them doing it. It does not, however, minimize the pain a spouse feels.

I was always taught 2 wrongs don't make a right. If women watch at the same degree as men, it means we're that much worse off.

I don't think the motivation here is to say that two wrongs make a right, but I believe this is a response to the false notion that is often repeated that only or mostly men have a porn problem. A man is affected by their wife's infidelity just like a wife is affected by their husband's infidelity. It isn't just women who are the victims in this. There are many men who are also victims. The language and the presentation of pornography and infidelity in relationships has been historically skewed against men. At church and when this topic comes up it has historically been presented as if it is just a problem men have and/or that it is only women who are suffering because of their husbands looking at porn or husbands being unfaithful.

Perhaps they have to say "most" women is because that is what the studies bare out?

-Finrock

No one ever said it was 'only' men who indulge in pornography, but it's not a false notion it more often affects men--especially among the LDS communities.

I wouldn't give any weight to Fiannan's suspicious statistics. He's always veering these pornography/infidelity threads off into his puerile proclivities about women being as skanky and perverted as men..not sure exactly why. I don't think anyone denies that women are not vulnerable as well, but the fact is men are more likely to be addicted than women. It's discussed as mostly a problem for men, because it IS mostly a problem for men--among LDS, which is what we're discussing. And, if you read the article in the recent Ensign, you'll be happy to see they don't present it as only being something that men struggle with.

Unfortunately, as it becomes more common in society and more men are affected, more women will become involved with it also.

It's not Fiannan's statistics. Some 7 or 8 years ago our Stake had a special effort to address the pornography issue in the Church. Based on statistics the Church had, it was estimated that some 60% of men have or have had a problem with pornography in the Church. It was also revealed that some 40% of women in the Church also have or had a problem. It was speculated that this was likely higher because of the shame factor and because women are less inclined, it seems, to admit or report that they have a problem with pornography. There are also other studies that have nothing to do with the Church that indicates that women are just as interested in pornography as men, albeit in different forms or ways.

The bias has been skewed towards men in the Church, but the reality is much different. When I was saying it "only affects men" I was saying that the bias has been that it most often affects men, but studies don't bare this out.

The fact is that men can be harmed by the sexual and the emotional infidelity of their wives. It isn't just women in the Church who are victims to the issue of pornography and infidelity.

-Finrock

Is your real name Finrock?

[simpleton]

Men or mankind are carnal, sensual and devilish. And the "natural" or "carnal" man is an enemy to God. Think about it AN ENEMY TO GOD.....And unless a man can bring unto subjection (of the spirit) those carnalistic desires of the flesh in this life, he will in nowise inherit the celestial kingdom and be able to have eternal increase...
And it is a literal war between the flesh and the spirit...
Being "hooked on porn" is literally the flesh winning the battle over the spirit. And unless a full true repentance and complete abstaining from those damning evils is done there will never be peace inside ones soul. There is no happiness in sin. Even though women are guilty also, I still consider us men to be far more responsible for this sick disease among us..
As I figure if men would man up and strive with all their might to become humble servants of the most High God then women would naturally follow along as they are designed to follow a man , but a man , a real man , a man of God...
But with most of us men turning into pansies , what's a woman to do ? Go read Heber C Kimballs life story... Read Brigham Youngs story ... Read Eliza R Snows story, etc etc etc . just to name a few .. and you will find a common thread in those men and women's lives and that is their fixed determination to serve God at all costs even unto the loss of their lives. And it seems that is the requisite, to be willing to give your all for God and his kingdom even at the risk of your life.. And that to me is the marking of a true man and woman of God .
60 to 90% of men hooked on pornography? And 50 plus % of women? In the church? Those are very alarming statistics. I am sorry but IMO it is blasphemy to be actively engaged in porn and at the same time exercise ordinances and partake of the sacrament. I think the church should at a minimum disfellowship every single person that is "hooked" until full repentance is made and if not excommunicate them ... And i will say apply it to me and my family members also...
How the hell is anybody going to quit and repent if just a little love tap on the wrist is all that is done? .... and no I do not think I am better than anyone else , I am a man of like passions and know that if I do not win the battle between the spirit and the flesh I to shall suffer the consequences....
God help us all....

[JohnnyL]

Men or mankind are carnal, sensual and devilish. And the "natural" or "carnal" man is an enemy to God. Think about it AN ENEMY TO GOD.....And unless a man can bring unto subjection (of the spirit) those carnalistic desires of the flesh in this life, he will in nowise inherit the celestial kingdom and be able to have eternal increase...
And it is a literal war between the flesh and the spirit...
Being "hooked on porn" is literally the flesh winning the battle over the spirit. And unless a full true repentance and complete abstaining from those damning evils is done there will never be peace inside ones soul. There is no happiness in sin. Even though women are guilty also, I still consider us men to be far more responsible for this sick disease among us..
As I figure if men would man up and strive with all their might to become humble servants of the most High God then women would naturally follow along as they are designed to follow a man , but a man , a real man , a man of God...
But with most of us men turning into pansies , what's a woman to do ? Go read Heber C Kimballs life story... Read Brigham Youngs story ... Read Eliza R Snows story, etc etc etc . just to name a few .. and you will find a common thread in those men and women's lives and that is their fixed determination to serve God at all costs even unto the loss of their lives. And it seems that is the requisite, to be willing to give your all for God and his kingdom even at the risk of your life.. And that to me is the marking of a true man and woman of God .
60 to 90% of men hooked on pornography? And 50 plus % of women? In the church? Those are very alarming statistics. I am sorry but IMO it is blasphemy to be actively engaged in porn and at the same time exercise ordinances and partake of the sacrament. I think the church should at a minimum disfellowship every single person that is "hooked" until full repentance is made and if not excommunicate them ... And i will say apply it to me and my family members also...
How the hell is anybody going to quit and repent if just a little love tap on the wrist is all that is done? .... and no I do not think I am better than anyone else , I am a man of like passions and know that if I do not win the battle between the spirit and the flesh I to shall suffer the consequences....
God help us all....

For those of you who agree that "Even though women are guilty also, I still consider us men to be far more responsible for this sick disease among us..," please give your actual reasons why you feel there should be a double standard with regards to sexual purity in thoughts, with men being judged more harshly than women.

And simpleton, I am sure you feel women and men who frivolously divorce, such as out of boredom, should also be at a minimum disfellowshipped, right?

[simpleton]

"And simpleton, I am sure you feel women and men who frivolously divorce, such as out of boredom, should also be at a minimum disfellowshipped, right?"


Well if there is no penalty for divorce (which is the case today) Then it will just continue getting worse and worse as is what is happening... so yes I would say at least disfellowship...

[Melissa]

Men or mankind are carnal, sensual and devilish. And the "natural" or "carnal" man is an enemy to God. Think about it AN ENEMY TO GOD.....And unless a man can bring unto subjection (of the spirit) those carnalistic desires of the flesh in this life, he will in nowise inherit the celestial kingdom and be able to have eternal increase...
And it is a literal war between the flesh and the spirit...
Being "hooked on porn" is literally the flesh winning the battle over the spirit. And unless a full true repentance and complete abstaining from those damning evils is done there will never be peace inside ones soul. There is no happiness in sin. Even though women are guilty also, I still consider us men to be far more responsible for this sick disease among us..
As I figure if men would man up and strive with all their might to become humble servants of the most High God then women would naturally follow along as they are designed to follow a man , but a man , a real man , a man of God...
But with most of us men turning into pansies , what's a woman to do ? Go read Heber C Kimballs life story... Read Brigham Youngs story ... Read Eliza R Snows story, etc etc etc . just to name a few .. and you will find a common thread in those men and women's lives and that is their fixed determination to serve God at all costs even unto the loss of their lives. And it seems that is the requisite, to be willing to give your all for God and his kingdom even at the risk of your life.. And that to me is the marking of a true man and woman of God .
60 to 90% of men hooked on pornography? And 50 plus % of women? In the church? Those are very alarming statistics. I am sorry but IMO it is blasphemy to be actively engaged in porn and at the same time exercise ordinances and partake of the sacrament. I think the church should at a minimum disfellowship every single person that is "hooked" until full repentance is made and if not excommunicate them ... And i will say apply it to me and my family members also...
How the hell is anybody going to quit and repent if just a little love tap on the wrist is all that is done? .... and no I do not think I am better than anyone else , I am a man of like passions and know that if I do not win the battle between the spirit and the flesh I to shall suffer the consequences....
God help us all....

For those of you who agree that "Even though women are guilty also, I still consider us men to be far more responsible for this sick disease among us..," please give your actual reasons why you feel there should be a double standard with regards to sexual purity in thoughts, with men being judged more harshly than women.

And simpleton, I am sure you feel women and men who frivolously divorce, such as out of boredom, should also be at a minimum disfellowshipped, right?

It's about supply and demand. If the demand wasn't there from the men in the first place then women sure wouldn't be doing it for money...as there wouldn't be any coming in. If men were not weak in the flesh then women wouldn't use their flesh to control or use men or to get gain.

Men are the leaders...they are not leading, they are falling victim to women then complaining about having their masculinity diminished. Lol, men are silly sometimes.

So this is one way that men are "responsible" for this porn epidemic. Is all blame in them? Absolutely not. But my point is a valid point. If the demand wasn't there neither would the supply be there.

[Melissa]

"And simpleton, I am sure you feel women and men who frivolously divorce, such as out of boredom, should also be at a minimum disfellowshipped, right?"


Well if there is no penalty for divorce (which is the case today) Then it will just continue getting worse and worse as is what is happening... so yes I would say at least disfellowship...

I think that if an LDS couple divorce for boredom then they should not be allowed to enter the temple after that to marry again. That is punishment enough. I also believe that if you divorce an eternal companion simply from boredom, you really have no right to marry anyone else in the eyes of God. Marriage is forever. And scripture states that if someone is divorced but their spouse is still living then if they marry another, they are comiting adultry or something to that nature. God is pretty serious about marriage and fidelity.

He is a jealous God and I believe marriage should be the same...no one or thing comes before spouse.

[simpleton]

October 8, 1861, Brigham Young:

A few remarks on woman. She is the glory of man, but she is not at the head in all the creations of God. Pertaining to his children on this earth she is not accountable for the sins that are in the world. God requires obedience from man, he is Lord of creation, and at his hands the sins of the world will be required. Could the female portion of the human family fully understand this, they would see that they are the objects of tender mercy, and greatly blessed. This no doubt on a causal view appears to my sisters a glorious doctrine for them and some might be tempted in their ignorance to take unwarrantable liberties, corrupt themselves with sin, and then take shelter under the doctrine that man alone is culpable for the sin they commit. There are, however, restrictions placed upon woman. I will quote a passage of scripture to illustrate this. “And the man that commiteth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that commiteth adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” When the crime was thus atoned for then was she free, and prepared to receive in full the blessings she otherwise would have received had she not committed sin. Woman must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice… but she will never become an angel to the devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy. She will suffer all that she has strength to suffer according to the venality of her sins.


I believe that doctrine....
And that I believe somewhat answers your question on the different standard that men and women are held to...

[djinwa]

After reading this, all I can say is, I'm sure feel sorry for your wife.

Your wife is not addicted to porn, you...on the other hand, I'm not so sure of. You seem awfully resentful and angry at her watching TV and your totally inappropriate attempt to equate TV watching with pornography is disturbing and offensive to those who know what it's like to have this pernicious evil in their marriage.

I don't know if there's any hope for a happy, harmonious marriage between you two, but if there is, it will come through repentance and forgiveness--on your part. Do you have the cajones to own up to your immature, self-centered, unloving attitudes you are nurturing with this sillyness? You do realize that a temple marriage does not force your wife to remain with you in the eternities? She still has a choice and if you made her miserable in life, why would she ever want to remain with you after death?

You wouldn't know it, but having a spouse addicted to actual pornography is a very traumatic, ongoing, horrible strain on a marriage. It's a betrayal of the most intimate part of the bond between husband and wife. It's a violation of temple vows for those sealed in temple. The fall out from this is horrific and ruins lives, destroying the self esteem of the person you vowed to cherish. It's no wonder that some desperate women turn to trusted family or a Bishop for guidance in what to do, I personally think it's best not to tell anyone, but leave it up to the addicted person when and whom to tell, but I don't condemn those who choose to find outside help. Of course, you only see it as punitive and vicious on a wife's part. That's the self centered, immature side of you--the weaknesses you ought to be trying to overcome so your wife will actually WANT to spend time with you. When you act in such a manner, it's no wonder she spends hours a night escaping into TV and books rather than interact with you.

But, in answer to your question. Yes. Please, do report her to the Bishop. Maybe he can talk some sense into you or get you some professional counseling.

This is an excellent example of why women can do as they please. Because if men question any of their actions, men are bombarded with personal insults and shaming. References to genitals, or whatever. Just keep telling someone over and over how self-centered and immature they are, and voila, they will really want to change. Perhaps I can tell that to my wife, right? But no, that might hurt her feelings, whereas, me being a man with cajones, cannot have feelings.

If a wife wants more time with her husband, she deserves it, but if I do, I am angry and resentful.

I am immature, self-centered, and unloving. Obviously I have no right to anything, lest I be selfish. Only give to others, but of course, they aren't selfish, right?

Apparently she doesn't want to spend time with me because I am self-centered and immature. But if a guy is doing porn, it isn't because his wife is self-centered and immature and failing to do that which would "actually WANT to spend time with you." No, it is completely and totally his fault. Men are to blame, and women are completely innocent.

In reference to my genitals, it is asked if I have large enough testicles to own up to my immature, self-centered and unloving attitude. First, why is it that we are allowed to reference genitalia if we are against pornography? What is the fascination with testicles? When counseling women, is it okay to discuss their genitalia? What is the difference?

Why is it that men are judged by the size of their testicles? Why is it we have to have large testicles in order to be a true man? Is shaming us about our manhood and testicle size a way to manipulate our behavior to benefit others who are selfish?

It's great to say both men and women have a problem, but practically speaking, men don't stand a chance. We are not as good at the shame game. Women control the church and society.

[Finrock]

Men or mankind are carnal, sensual and devilish. And the "natural" or "carnal" man is an enemy to God. Think about it AN ENEMY TO GOD.....And unless a man can bring unto subjection (of the spirit) those carnalistic desires of the flesh in this life, he will in nowise inherit the celestial kingdom and be able to have eternal increase...
And it is a literal war between the flesh and the spirit...
Being "hooked on porn" is literally the flesh winning the battle over the spirit. And unless a full true repentance and complete abstaining from those damning evils is done there will never be peace inside ones soul. There is no happiness in sin. Even though women are guilty also, I still consider us men to be far more responsible for this sick disease among us..
As I figure if men would man up and strive with all their might to become humble servants of the most High God then women would naturally follow along as they are designed to follow a man , but a man , a real man , a man of God...
But with most of us men turning into pansies , what's a woman to do ? Go read Heber C Kimballs life story... Read Brigham Youngs story ... Read Eliza R Snows story, etc etc etc . just to name a few .. and you will find a common thread in those men and women's lives and that is their fixed determination to serve God at all costs even unto the loss of their lives. And it seems that is the requisite, to be willing to give your all for God and his kingdom even at the risk of your life.. And that to me is the marking of a true man and woman of God .
60 to 90% of men hooked on pornography? And 50 plus % of women? In the church? Those are very alarming statistics. I am sorry but IMO it is blasphemy to be actively engaged in porn and at the same time exercise ordinances and partake of the sacrament. I think the church should at a minimum disfellowship every single person that is "hooked" until full repentance is made and if not excommunicate them ... And i will say apply it to me and my family members also...
How the hell is anybody going to quit and repent if just a little love tap on the wrist is all that is done? .... and no I do not think I am better than anyone else , I am a man of like passions and know that if I do not win the battle between the spirit and the flesh I to shall suffer the consequences....
God help us all....

Addiction is a disease. What you are suggesting is like excommunicating a cancer patient because they can't will themselves to be cured.

I empathize with those who have been hurt by spouses who have struggles with pornography. Trust me when I say that I am no stranger to great betrayal, pain, loneliness, and feeling minimized, and abandoned. But, what I'm seeing in some of these posts is bitterness and/or a complete lack of understanding of how addictions work. The answer is not to figuratively castrate men or to become a man hater or to generalize about how a man is or ought to be. I was raped by my grandmother and my mother as a young child. The greatest harm that was done to me in this life was caused by women. I know the harmful affects of pornography and sex addiction and am well aware of the struggle being a recovering addict myself. After being hurt so thoroughly by someone it is hard and might even be a life long struggle to trust again. I also have enough time now in the recovery and healing process to know that there is a solution and a right way to deal with these types of things. The Church is handling this disease mostly in a very positive and empathetic way that recognizes pornography addiction as the disease it is and recognizing that there is almost always more beneath the surface than the assumption that someone isn't righteous or they are weak. Dealing with this in a Christlike way, using Christlike principles found in the addiction recovery program is good and right and powerful. There is also family support groups for spouses who have a family member or spouse who is struggling with a porn problem or other addictions and issues. It would be good for anyone in this situation to start attending these meetings. You can't control others or what they do, but you can begin to control your own life by taking accountability of your own thoughts and feelings. Most people who attend these meetings sincerely and genuinely find that they aren't in a position to judge another after all because they have plenty of weaknesses on their own plate to work with.

-Finrock

[Elizabeth]

This is all so sad.

[Kitkat]

I think for either gender it comes down to the fact that God is love. Let's teach our children what true love is, and how to differentiate love and virtue from lust. Let's help them build the emotional connection to others that have more power to overcome/prevent addiction for men and women than any other kind of treatment.

[Kitkat]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y51YETlzgU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best video I've ever seen on this subject

[simpleton]

If I may say , to compare pornography addiction to a cancer patient is, well, not even in the same universe.
And Finrock what you say your grandmother and mother did to you is disgusting and sickening and I believe they will pay dearly, in this life and probably in the next. As mercy cannot rob justice.
God says He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. I personally expect to pay for my sins wherein I sin with knowledge, as in having a knowledge of Christ and his commandments.
To treat pornography as an addiction like say alcohol, I think , is to put them on the same level when they are world's apart. IMO.
Now can a person repent of pornography? Yes he and or she can . But it seems that when we are coddled or treated like little baby's that do not know any better the incentive to truly repent is very diminished..
So what is going on? Why is pornography so rampant in the church? Up to 90%? That to me is a plague worse than a plague that kills the flesh. That tells me ( IMO ) that up to 90% are not living the gospel. That tells me the we have nothing to offer the world that is better than where the world is at... Think about it, " Come unto me ye heavily burdened, come unto me and rest, repent and join us where up to 90% of our men are porn addicts and 50% plus of our women...
Sorry for being so sarcastic but maybe it's not such a stretch of the imagination.

Apply this to us as it seems to fit us perfect:
Isaiah chapter 3

For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, does take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water.

The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

The captain of fifty, and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.

And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbor: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honorable.

When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, You have clothing, be you our ruler, and let this ruin be under your hand:

In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.

The show of their countenance does witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe to their soul! for they have rewarded evil to themselves.

Say you to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

Woe to the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.

The LORD stands up to plead, and stands to judge the people.

The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for you have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What mean you that you beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? said the Lord GOD of hosts.

Moreover the LORD said, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, The rings, and nose jewels, The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Your men shall fall by the sword, and your mighty in the war.
And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit on the ground.

We declare our sins of Sodom and hide them not. Sound familiar? Children are our oppressors and women rule over us. Sound familiar? The child behaves proudly against the ancient . Sound familiar? Etc.
But look at Isaiah’s predicted end or rather the consequences , the women have a list of things that God is going spank them with and it seems they will repent or I suppose at least some, but us men are going to die by the sword as it seems us men refuse to repent...


And again for the record I am a sinner also and apply the above to myself and fear for my own salvation, and, I believe in whom I may trust for my own salvation, but also I do not think that mercy can rob justice until the demands of justice are met. You might say that Christ met all the demands of justice. I do not think so as for example if I stole something justice requires that I restore fourfold , does the mercy of Christ relieve me of that responsibility? I do not think so.
God helps those that help themselves, He is not going to do your repenting for you, He wants us to repent and go our ways and sin no more. He commands us to repent, He gives us incentives to repent by dire threats and warnings that He fulfills when our cup is full.( unless we repent) And it seems to me that a 90% plus addiction rate of the men in His church is a pretty full cup..

Look at our father Joseph of old , the son of Jacob, now that is what I call a real man, a man who was incarcerated, innocently I might add, because he refused to commit adultery with what was most likely a very beautiful wife of his master... who may I ask of us men in our day, could withstand a beautiful woman coming on to you, and at it for years with ultimately the power to release you from prison if you simply just lie with her. And that's besides the fact of him forgiving his brothers for wanting and trying to kill him then ultimately selling him as a slave.. No wonder Joseph's blessings prevailed above the everlasting hills....
God it seems blesses those that "deny" themselves not those that "indulge" themselves..
If us men would stand up and be men, men of God, and quit worrying about the women, I would say the women would be right there along side of us. And if you do not think so, what does it matter? God shall reward you greatly, as He says even of the faithful eunuchs:

Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from his people"; and let not the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."

For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off."

God please have mercy on us all and likewise help us to be merciful. But I do think it is possible to make mercy and charity blush with shame.

[Finrock]

If I may say , to compare pornography addiction to a cancer patient is, well, not even in the same universe.
And Finrock what you say your grandmother and mother did to you is disgusting and sickening and I believe they will pay dearly, in this life and probably in the next. As mercy cannot rob justice.
God says He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. I personally expect to pay for my sins wherein I sin with knowledge, as in having a knowledge of Christ and his commandments.
To treat pornography as an addiction like say alcohol, I think , is to put them on the same level when they are world's apart. IMO.
Now can a person repent of pornography? Yes he and or she can . But it seems that when we are coddled or treated like little baby's that do not know any better the incentive to truly repent is very diminished..
So what is going on? Why is pornography so rampant in the church? Up to 90%? That to me is a plague worse than a plague that kills the flesh. That tells me ( IMO ) that up to 90% are not living the gospel. That tells me the we have nothing to offer the world that is better than where the world is at... Think about it, " Come unto me ye heavily burdened, come unto me and rest, repent and join us where up to 90% of our men are porn addicts and 50% plus of our women...
Sorry for being so sarcastic but maybe it's not such a stretch of the imagination.

Apply this to us as it seems to fit us perfect:
Isaiah chapter 3

For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, does take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water.

The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

The captain of fifty, and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.

And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbor: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honorable.

When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, You have clothing, be you our ruler, and let this ruin be under your hand:

In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.

The show of their countenance does witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe to their soul! for they have rewarded evil to themselves.

Say you to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

Woe to the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.

The LORD stands up to plead, and stands to judge the people.

The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for you have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What mean you that you beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? said the Lord GOD of hosts.

Moreover the LORD said, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, The rings, and nose jewels, The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

Your men shall fall by the sword, and your mighty in the war.
And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit on the ground.

We declare our sins of Sodom and hide them not. Sound familiar? Children are our oppressors and women rule over us. Sound familiar? The child behaves proudly against the ancient . Sound familiar? Etc.
But look at Isaiah’s predicted end or rather the consequences , the women have a list of things that God is going spank them with and it seems they will repent or I suppose at least some, but us men are going to die by the sword as it seems us men refuse to repent...


And again for the record I am a sinner also and apply the above to myself and fear for my own salvation, and, I believe in whom I may trust for my own salvation, but also I do not think that mercy can rob justice until the demands of justice are met. You might say that Christ met all the demands of justice. I do not think so as for example if I stole something justice requires that I restore fourfold , does the mercy of Christ relieve me of that responsibility? I do not think so.
God helps those that help themselves, He is not going to do your repenting for you, He wants us to repent and go our ways and sin no more. He commands us to repent, He gives us incentives to repent by dire threats and warnings that He fulfills when our cup is full.( unless we repent) And it seems to me that a 90% plus addiction rate of the men in His church is a pretty full cup..

Look at our father Joseph of old , the son of Jacob, now that is what I call a real man, a man who was incarcerated, innocently I might add, because he refused to commit adultery with what was most likely a very beautiful wife of his master... who may I ask of us men in our day, could withstand a beautiful woman coming on to you, and at it for years with ultimately the power to release you from prison if you simply just lie with her. And that's besides the fact of him forgiving his brothers for wanting and trying to kill him then ultimately selling him as a slave.. No wonder Joseph's blessings prevailed above the everlasting hills....
God it seems blesses those that "deny" themselves not those that "indulge" themselves..
If us men would stand up and be men, men of God, and quit worrying about the women, I would say the women would be right there along side of us. And if you do not think so, what does it matter? God shall reward you greatly, as He says even of the faithful eunuchs:

Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from his people"; and let not the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."

For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off."

God please have mercy on us all and likewise help us to be merciful. But I do think it is possible to make mercy and charity blush with shame.

Sex, lust, porn addictions are legit, true, real addictions. Addictions are diseases. That is the connection between cancer and pornography addiction. A disease is something that can't just be willed away. Also, most often, although not in all cases, but most often there are underlying issues and concerns for those who have a sex, lust, porn addiction and the porn, sex, and lust are just manifestations of something else going on in that person's life.

My whole point in my post was to make you aware of the fact that porn, sex, lust issues that many struggle with are in fact addictions and addictions are in fact diseases. You seem to deny that this is the case, so then you are prone to treat the problem as if it were just a matter of people being vile sinners or as if they can just will themselves to stop. Your perspective is common, but it ignores the reality. Look, I'm not an expert, a doctor, or a psychologist, but I have been through treatment myself, I am an ARP facilitator helping those who struggle with addictions of all sorts, and I have plenty of experience working with psychologist and other mental health professionals as I've worked through my own issues, addictions, etc. This process has educated me and I am intimately familiar with what is actually going on and how porn, sex, lust affect the body, the mind, and the spirit. Alcoholism and sex/lust/porn addictions are very much in the same class and addictions are diseases and therefore they are in the same class as other diseases. I wrote what I wrote so that you and others can be aware of this connection so that you can start dealing with this issue from the correct perspective. Otherwise, your views and perspectives will be biased and missing the mark and being punitive and vengeful is NOT helpful or even something that will make a difference for the good to anyone. The Church's ARP program is centered on Christ and His atonement. I know from experience that the principles taught in ARP are good and true and they work. Thousands of others know this as well. Educate yourself and take time to attend a few ARP sessions. By the way, those meetings are not just for people suffering from substance abuse or porn addictions, this program is intended for anyone who has a weakness and continues to struggle with a weakness year after year. Someone once called it the Advance Repentance Program, because it truly is that.

Lastly, I love my mother and my grandmother. I don't want any harm or punishment to be inflicted upon them. I have forgiven them and am at peace with what they did to me and wish them only happiness, goodness, and joy in life and in the next life. I understand they will need to work through their life's decisions and choices, but its not my job to seek vengeance or justice. It's my job to extend mercy and love because that is what Christ extended and provided me. My current disposition concerning my childhood experiences did not come automatically or without struggle and most important not without help from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

-Finrock