The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

For discussion of political issues in general.

What do the scriptures teach us about the earth?

The Earth is a globe.
60
68%
The Earth is Flat like a terrarium (a dome).
12
14%
The Earth is a globe and hollow.
13
15%
The Earth is Flat and hollow.
3
3%
 
Total votes: 88

Kitkat
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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Kitkat » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:07 am

^^^ from videos posted above this post...
The seed war is an interesting perspective which can help one be open to the possibility of the flat earth.
BEGUILED ME...
Operation Dominic (of the Lord) to test nuclear hits on operation Fish Bowl. Wow.

"The Fish Bowl of the Lord" is the meaning of Operation Dominic and Fish Bowl...

NASA in Hebrew means... "To Deceive"? To Greatly Deceived, or Beguile greatly. hmmm.
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Kitkat » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:08 am

Some PHDs showing NASA is a fraud:
http://aulis.com/
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Kitkat » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:36 pm

First time I've heard of "Auguste Piccard". Friend of Albert Einstein. PHD in physics. Engineer. Built craft to be first man in stratosphere. Jean Luke Piccard (star trek) named after him?

He said of his experience upon reaching the stratosphere, after complaining that his ship he took up there kept leaking water... water... he said upon seeing the earth below, "it seems a disk with upturned edges."

George Clay,
Am I understanding this is the "la-la land conspiracy ridiculousness" you speak of? Were his eyes just not seeing the curve? What of the water leaks he had as he got up that high?

Popular Science 1931:
https://imgur.com/gallery/miXLb

FYI. This was before NASA (aka. to beguile or deceive). There are many more of these men who were seeing flat earth before and now after NASA.

It is up to each of us to trust the voice of God, not the voice of science and philosophies of men.
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

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Re: The Earth is a Globe!! God is literal, heaven above and hell below! Crazy theories in between!

Postby JohnnyL » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:42 pm

iWriteStuff wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 pm
I voted "The Earth is Flat and hollow" because science is for losers. :-B

Seriously, why are there 18 pages of debate on this?
"The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire...."
- D&C 130:6-7
It takes a strong imagination not to understand that literally. Our planet is like God's - a globe. Other times referred to as a "sphere":
Sphere: a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space that is the surface of a completely round ball.
I look forward to seeing you guys back at the debate on Page 100. Carry on. :ymparty:
So you are assuming that since that is what it will be like, that is what it is, now, correct?

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby shadow » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:36 pm

Kitkat wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:36 pm


It is up to each of us to trust the voice of God, not the voice of science and philosophies of men.
Amen.
Is the voice of God still telling you Jonathan Cahn is correct or are you over that now since he was wrong? Just curious.

It wasn't NASA that claimed the earth is a globe, it's been known factually for centuries. It's the philosophies of men that claim the earth is flat.
This imminent stuff is taking for-freaking-ever...

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby gclayjr » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:47 pm

KitKat,
George Clay,
Am I understanding this is the "la-la land conspiracy ridiculousness" you speak of? Were his eyes just not seeing the curve? What of the water leaks he had as he got up that high?

Popular Science 1931:
https://imgur.com/gallery/miXLb

FYI. This was before NASA (aka. to beguile or deceive). There are many more of these men who were seeing flat earth before and now after NASA.

It is up to each of us to trust the voice of God, not the voice of science and philosophies of men.
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

What an amazingly small world!

I was very good friends with Auguste Piccard's Nephew. Jean Piccard. (Not the captain of the Starship Enterprise but as silly as some of the logic here, I guess I could sell such an idea... although the character Jean Luc Piccard was apparently named after his father). I used to go to his house regularly and we discussed many things including the gospel. We met while both of us were shopping for machine tool parts. He was a scientist at DuPont. I spend many an evening at his house with him and his charming wife. He came to my 50th Birthday celebration. He is dead now.

He often talked about his father and his father's twin brother, his uncle Auguste and their pioneering exploits ballooning. He also talked about his father's friend Henry Ford (Yes, that Henry Ford). I guarantee, that no matter what you infer from that PS Article Neither He, his Uncle nor his father believed that the world was Flat. They were both intelligent men with a great respect for exploring and science. And he certainly did not think the earth was flat either!!

Regards,

George Clay

PS: Again the PS article is making no implication that the world is flat. They are simply reporting a description of what was seen. If you believe that at 50,000 feet, they could see the whole flat earth, Why can't I see the Rocky Mountains from 30,000 feet? In fact why can't I see Philadelphia from the top of the Poconos mts less than 100 miles away? In fact why can't I see Philadelphia,. from an airplane 100 miles from Philadelphia?

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby michaelhord » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:23 pm

Mormonism may be hanging in the balance on the subject of whether or not the earth is a globe or flat.

Genesis 1:16-17 Tells us that the sun, moon and stars were put in the firmament.
Genesis 1:6 tells us that the firmament devides the waters above from the waters below. It cannot mean the sky leading to space and the solar system. Our earth, sun , moon and stars are enclosed.
Revelation 6:13 tells us that the stars will fall to earth like figs from a tree.
Joshua an eyewitness reports in chapter 10:12-14 that the sun and moon stop and do not move for a day.
Isaiah also an eyewitness reports in 38:8 that the sun moved backwards 10 degrees.
In direct contradiction , Helaman 12:14 tells us that it is the earth that moves and not the sun.
On April 8, 1843 Joseph Smith replied to Deacon Homespun's Statement that "the earth is flat as a pancake" by saying that "science has proven to the contrary". ( easily found on google)
Joseph Smith did not refer to Helaman but instead referred to science for the answer.

President Uchtdorf addressed flat earth briefly in 2013 when flat earth was barely a topic of discussion. The church is aware of the subject.

If the earth is flat then Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon are wrong. Currently the belief in a spherical earth is safe but flat earth is trending upwards at a fast pace and evidence for it is piling up while evidence for a spherical earth is being discredited .

Had Joseph Smith referred to Helaman instead of science the church could have just said there was a mistake made by men and made a simple change but Joseph Smith has locked the church in to a heliocentric position and because President Uchtdorf has addressed the subject he has added another lock. He cannot come back and say that the church hasnt decided yet. The comment by Joseph Smith will be used against us.

I have noticed the comments about flat earth being a wacka doo conspiracy. Anyone who has seen Nasa's fakery has much reason to doubt and there is a lot of fakery to be found and easily. I have no doubt that it is only a matter of time before detractors of the church run with flat earth and they are going to use it against us.

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Re: The Earth is a Globe!! God is literal, heaven above and hell below! Crazy theories in between!

Postby iWriteStuff » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:31 am

JohnnyL wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:42 pm
iWriteStuff wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 pm
I voted "The Earth is Flat and hollow" because science is for losers. :-B

Seriously, why are there 18 pages of debate on this?
"The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire...."
- D&C 130:6-7
It takes a strong imagination not to understand that literally. Our planet is like God's - a globe. Other times referred to as a "sphere":
Sphere: a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space that is the surface of a completely round ball.
I look forward to seeing you guys back at the debate on Page 100. Carry on. :ymparty:
So you are assuming that since that is what it will be like, that is what it is, now, correct?
And you're assuming this world isn't patterned after the others?
"Every step in the direction of increasing one's personal holdings is a step away from Zion."

Hugh Nibley

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby michaelhord » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:52 am

It takes more imagination to assume an expanding universe than an infinite plane.
Both can have as many worlds as they want but it is much easier to do on a plane.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby braingrunt » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:58 am

Kitkat wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:03 am

As a child... That is how the Lord says we will enter the Kingdom of God. Please start this thread over, and do it as a child and the Father of Lights, who made the firmament and the dome he sits at the top of, can teach you what no man considers or knows.
I've sought answers from God on this subject,
I think he told me the earth is globe shape. I also think that if anything, God has helped form my objections to flat earth theory, and find problems with the few counter-explanations offered by flat earth adherents.

Flat earth theory is only simple on the surface. It gets complicated in a very non-childlike way, very quickly. Here are some concepts which get really hairy:
Celestial Perspective, Vanishing Point, Magnetic sun and moon, Moonphase theory, Eclipse theory, Magnetic Coriolis, Atmospheric lensing, Sunset timing and location theory, Tidal theory, Air Pressure theory, Star Parallax, Conspiracy theory, Flat Analemma.
The complicated explanations are endless because that's the only way to behave when a pet theory shows problems. Childlike eyes looks at all that and says, uh, the ball is easier to understand.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Kitkat » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:19 pm

braingrunt wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:58 am
Kitkat wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:03 am

As a child... That is how the Lord says we will enter the Kingdom of God. Please start this thread over, and do it as a child and the Father of Lights, who made the firmament and the dome he sits at the top of, can teach you what no man considers or knows.
I've sought answers from God on this subject,
I think he told me the earth is globe shape. I also think that if anything, God has helped form my objections to flat earth theory, and find problems with the few counter-explanations offered by flat earth adherents.

Flat earth theory is only simple on the surface. It gets complicated in a very non-childlike way, very quickly. Here are some concepts which get really hairy:
Celestial Perspective, Vanishing Point, Magnetic sun and moon, Moonphase theory, Eclipse theory, Magnetic Coriolis, Atmospheric lensing, Sunset timing and location theory, Tidal theory, Air Pressure theory, Star Parallax, Conspiracy theory, Flat Analemma.
The complicated explanations are endless because that's the only way to behave when a pet theory shows problems. Childlike eyes looks at all that and says, uh, the ball is easier to understand.
Great! Thanks for sharing.

Current Perspective. Current Point of view based on our own biases.

What do you think is going on here? Is God telling you the earth is a globe, or is he telling us it is flat or both?

I believe God gives us knowledge to invite us towards understanding. We have been given knowledge. This thread is to help us find understanding with the knowledge God has given us per his pattern of introducing us to consider something in another way when we are seeking understanding of some topic.

I do believe we are to have the simplistic childlike faith when we go at these things, vs. faith backed upon the flesh-man-peer reviewed philosophy science (not to discredit the many amazing science discoveries, but to put them up against God's perspective and our willingness to maintain child like faith and an open mind to being willing to go against the road much more traveled).

How fun that we can take each of those "really hairy" more complicated topics you mentioned and study them now with new information, new ways to understand the supposed millions of years that made this earth (example: electromagnetism, plasma, lab tests forming vast canyons in minutes with electricity, the sun being an electrical orb, not a nuclear gas oven, etc.).

I would be hard pressed to believe that our adversary, a vain being who wants to be worshiped and usurp God, wouldn't mimic God with vain symbols, signs, and down right logos of his handiworks on earth in everything he can get his palsy hands into. We don't go looking for NASA and what that acronym could symbolize. God puts those things in our study in the patterns he uses in our lives so we are not deceived, just as we might as parents do for our children, putting things in their lives so they can discover truth for themselves with our always lovingly watching over them, ready to give more knowledge as we are open to it.

Child like faith to us isn't dismissing science, but studying what science proposes and asking our father to give us his perspectives on the same topics.

Did you know NASA means beguiled or deceived in the Hebrew? Do you consider these small seemingly unimportant symbolisms, logos, signs, and such as mere coincidences throughout so many of the "world's" systems? What about the serpent's tongue in the NASA logo? What about the names of each NASA mission being one of the gods that all point to nimrod? Are these happen chance or planned in your view?
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Kitkat » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:37 pm

michaelhord wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:23 pm
Mormonism may be hanging in the balance on the subject of whether or not the earth is a globe or flat.

Genesis 1:16-17 Tells us that the sun, moon and stars were put in the firmament.
Genesis 1:6 tells us that the firmament devides the waters above from the waters below. It cannot mean the sky leading to space and the solar system. Our earth, sun , moon and stars are enclosed.
Revelation 6:13 tells us that the stars will fall to earth like figs from a tree.
Joshua an eyewitness reports in chapter 10:12-14 that the sun and moon stop and do not move for a day.
Isaiah also an eyewitness reports in 38:8 that the sun moved backwards 10 degrees.
In direct contradiction , Helaman 12:14 tells us that it is the earth that moves and not the sun.
On April 8, 1843 Joseph Smith replied to Deacon Homespun's Statement that "the earth is flat as a pancake" by saying that "science has proven to the contrary". ( easily found on google)
Joseph Smith did not refer to Helaman but instead referred to science for the answer.

President Uchtdorf addressed flat earth briefly in 2013 when flat earth was barely a topic of discussion. The church is aware of the subject.

If the earth is flat then Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon are wrong. Currently the belief in a spherical earth is safe but flat earth is trending upwards at a fast pace and evidence for it is piling up while evidence for a spherical earth is being discredited .

Had Joseph Smith referred to Helaman instead of science the church could have just said there was a mistake made by men and made a simple change but Joseph Smith has locked the church in to a heliocentric position and because President Uchtdorf has addressed the subject he has added another lock. He cannot come back and say that the church hasnt decided yet. The comment by Joseph Smith will be used against us.

I have noticed the comments about flat earth being a wacka doo conspiracy. Anyone who has seen Nasa's fakery has much reason to doubt and there is a lot of fakery to be found and easily. I have no doubt that it is only a matter of time before detractors of the church run with flat earth and they are going to use it against us.
Thanks for the perspective.

It is a little more complicated. One powerful example of the problem we have with the church and how it relates directly to the problem we have with this flat earth scriptural perspective and Helaman, both opposite perspectives covered in this now lengthy thread.

Take Jacob 2 for example. We always used to read it like most LDS do, just how we are brought up in the church to understand it, being an exception to polygamy. Once we allowed ourselves to think outside the correlation method the church does indeed put into its structure (which can bee opposite the personal revelation and spontaneous by the spirit method), and once we allowed the Lord to awaken us to other things, be they political, spiritual, financial, or otherwise - we were only then ready to have the Lord read us Jacob 2 from his view, which was the opposite of what we have always been taught, told, or thought.

We had knowledge that Jacob 2 meant what we were taught it did. It wasn't until we were ready, that the Lord gave us understanding of the same passage of scripture, which was opposite what we once believed.

Example of this polygamy opposite understanding here: viewtopic.php?t=38780#p609422
(note in this polygamy thread linked above, how some people share their "lightbulb" moments, where they finally were able to see Jacob 2 in a new light, which turned their former knowledge on it's head - We have had so many experiences since that thread, where people, reached out to us or on their personal blogs, revealing the same beautiful witness they got, with their new found understanding of the same chapter, understanding that ONLY COMES from God, not from man's opinions.)

Another example is the reading of 1 Nephi 8:5. Footnotes suggest it is Christ or an angel if I remember right, even references scriptures suggesting the same. We and many others now read it just as it is, a man in a white robe deceiving Lehi, which when Lehi followed him, he found himself in a dark and dreary waste, where he then asked the Lord (not the man in the white robe) to deliver him.

Another example is the life of the rogue man Jesus, who the Jews (leaders of the church mostly) saw as an outlaw renegade. They had all the rituals, laws, sacrifices, and temple setup - everything was in place. But they missed the very mark. How? Maybe that is the point, and God's agency plan. Knowledge only becomes truthful understanding when we are child like in our faith to trust the still small voice of God over all the voices bombarding us with their understandings, no matter how strange and lunacy (to use Active LDS member's words on this very thread) it may appear.

Two totally different UNDERSTANDINGS of the same passages of scripture (sounds like Joseph's dilemma doesn't it?). Who to believe? That is easy to us and the point of Joseph's experience. Ask God who giveth liberally and upbraideth not - but don't waver. If God does not upbraid, then who does, and from what sources are we upbraided on these matters. To us, it appears we are upbraided by philosophies of men and traditions, not the understanding the Lord can give each of us when we think we have knowledge on a topic like this flat earth possibility.
:D
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby braingrunt » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:43 pm

I believe that NASA is irrelevant to this topic. It can be completely discarded as 100% lies if you like, and it doesn't weaken the globe earth position, with respect to geometry and celestial bodies. Nor does it fix the problems with the flat earth model.

So, I encourage you, if it gives you clarity, to completely trample NASA and never give it another thought while deciding earth shape. For you, I feel, it's a distraction.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Kitkat » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:06 pm

braingrunt wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:43 pm
I believe that NASA is irrelevant to this topic. It can be completely discarded as 100% lies if you like, and it doesn't weaken the globe earth position, with respect to geometry and celestial bodies. Nor does it fix the problems with the flat earth model.

So, I encourage you, if it gives you clarity, to completely trample NASA and never give it another thought while deciding earth shape. For you, I feel, it's a distraction.
A distraction maybe. But nonetheless an interesting coincidence or planned vain stamp of approval from a vain devil, as the scriptures state he is the "one who deceives the whole world". Too bad it doesn't say, "one who deceives the whole round earth" then this topic maybe wouldn't be considered.
"condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance"

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Finrock » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:35 pm

For what its worth, when I consider the flat-Earth evidence it seems to be rooted in fear. I have PTSD and there have been times when my PTSD has been triggered and when it gets triggered, I am hyper vigilant and wary of any and all things. I feel like in order to adopt the flat-earth theory it requires me to be in this state of triggered PTSD where around every corner there is a person trying to trick me or they are lying to me or there is some conspiracy against me.

I believe in conspiracies, for sure, but the flat-earth theory violates Occam's razor: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. With the flat-earth theory I have to make all sorts of assumptions and it requires all sorts of explanations that are at their root fear based and, frankly, convoluted.

It doesn't feel "right" to me.

-Finrock
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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby shadow » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:22 pm

Kitkat wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:19 pm


Did you know NASA means beguiled or deceived in the Hebrew?
I didn't know that. Did you know NASA actually means this in Hebrew-

נָשָׂא nâsâʼ, naw-saw'; or נָסָה nâçâh; (Psalm 4:6 [7]), a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absolute and relative:—accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable ( man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, × needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, swear, take (away, up), × utterly, wear, yield.

nasa'
Pronunciation
nä·sä' (Key)
to lift, bear up, carry, take
(Qal)
to lift, lift up
to bear, carry, support, sustain, endure
to take, take away, carry off, forgive
(Niphal)
to be lifted up, be exalted
to lift oneself up, rise up
to be borne, be carried
to be taken away, be carried off, be swept away
(Piel)
to lift up, exalt, support, aid, assist
to desire, long (fig.)
to carry, bear continuously
to take, take away
This imminent stuff is taking for-freaking-ever...

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby michaelhord » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:44 pm

I dont do the polygamy issue. I don't think there is another church.
I do know that the church had to restored.
I am aware of many evidences in favor of the Book of Mormon.
I never expected to see anything that could hit the Book of Mormon like this.
I have always contended FOR the church when necessary.
I do not have any answers yet that suffice for this delema. Fundamentalist Christian for the most part will give me the same evasive answers or try to drag the conversation off topic.
Non Mormons with exception to the Catholics have nothing to lose here. In fact , flat earth is fuel to use on athiests. Many flat earthers are former athiests. They need a church.

The responses I've seen from Mormons aren't going to work on any non Mormons.

What if Mormons got behind it and adopted flat earth? Would we lose membership over it?
This could be an opportunity and it will be easier to own it than fight it.
The church can't change the Bible but it can change one verse in the Book of Mormon and it wouldn't be the first time. The Book of Mormon even tells us up front that if there are any mistakes they are of men.
The church has the resources to prove NASA has been lying.

I don't see this opportunity staying open forever though.

Just a thought

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Finrock » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:08 pm

michaelhord wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:44 pm
I dont do the polygamy issue. I don't think there is another church.
I do know that the church had to restored.
I am aware of many evidences in favor of the Book of Mormon.
I never expected to see anything that could hit the Book of Mormon like this.
I have always contended FOR the church when necessary.
I do not have any answers yet that suffice for this delema. Fundamentalist Christian for the most part will give me the same evasive answers or try to drag the conversation off topic.
Non Mormons with exception to the Catholics have nothing to lose here. In fact , flat earth is fuel to use on athiests. Many flat earthers are former athiests. They need a church.

The responses I've seen from Mormons aren't going to work on any non Mormons.

What if Mormons got behind it and adopted flat earth? Would we lose membership over it?
This could be an opportunity and it will be easier to own it than fight it.
The church can't change the Bible but it can change one verse in the Book of Mormon and it wouldn't be the first time. The Book of Mormon even tells us up front that if there are any mistakes they are of men.
The church has the resources to prove NASA has been lying.

I don't see this opportunity staying open forever though.

Just a thought
You believe the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon hinges on whether the Earth is flat or not? Are you saying that if more people start supporting the flat earth theory and flat-earth theory gets accepted, then this will change the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon?

-Finrock
"You can't reason with a wolf" -rewcox

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby gclayjr » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:11 pm

Finrock,
I have PTSD and there have been times when my PTSD has been triggered and when it gets triggered, I am hyper vigilant and wary of any and all thing
Sorry about the PTSD. I didn't know you served in the military. Which branch did you serve in? In which war were you deployed?


Semper FI

George Clay

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby NinjaForJesus » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:20 pm

larsenb wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:44 pm
I could have rephrased the wording of my initial comment better, and did make an attempt to clarify it later.

A number of years ago when I worked for the U.S.G.S. in Menlo Park, CA, one of my office mates joined the Flat Earth Society and pinned his membership certificate on the wall. We all understood that it was a tongue-in-cheek joke. I never dreamed I would actually encounter somebody trying to mount an argument for a flat earth over many months, and maybe years, in a public forum.

Science has a very definite role to play in our reality. It is a consensus activity, open to being checked, refuted and verified by anyone who is willing to learn and use the process. I don’t see the consensus built up describing our earth and solar system as a deception. Too many people have had to verify the basic ideas, and a select few use them in such activities as astronomy, orbital science and rocketry, etc.; and they have been very successful in making the principles work.

Yes, I turn up wrong now and again, like the rest of us. But In terms of my ideas about reality, I’m very careful to be tentative . . . at least in some areas.

Flat earth is simply not a topic that has any credibility for me. Some of the arguments I’ve looked at are quite specious, or dead wrong, in my honest opinion. And it would never occur to me to pray about the truth of it. People generally only pray about issues that are of real concern to them.

If KitKat had a better understanding of the real and massive evidence for a global earth, it would be even braver for her to dispute the issue in a public forum. But what may appear to be bravery to one person, is foolhardiness to someone else. That’s just the way it is.

Since you brought it up, though, where do you stand on 9/11? Interesting you should bring it up. Why is that?
I think we fail ourselves when we take offense to someone who is sharing something interesting they discovered in their unique path back to God, even if it shocks us and seems implausible.

Why not take the opportunity to educate and make a friend, show them you are at least listening and care that what they discovered has had an effect on their thinking.

This seems to be the down fall of our LDS culture of late. Think about it. What is happening on this thread? A bunch of LDS, for the most part, belittling someone who has shared something fun and exciting to think about as a possibility.

If you read through this thread again, as I have taken the time to do so, you will find kitkat has stated each time the "possibility" of a flat earth as if a child is asking a question to her peers she trusts. I have also read so many responses to be reactions instead of loving inquiries or sharing proofs on the contrary. I don't see many people with listening skills on this forum, in that you listen and try to understand what someone is saying. Rather I see again many reactions to something that is uncomfortable to the majority to even talk about let alone consider.

What makes me feel sick inside is how mean LDS members on this forum have been to this member and others in this thread and other threads.

If the idea of a flat earth is so shocking and unbelievable, why on earth would anyone want to listen to the idea of a boy seeing God and Christ, getting gold plates, translating them in a black top hat of sorts with a seer stone, polygamy which occurred, and golden statues with an angel named Moroni on our temples to name a few? What a strange proposition to someone who maybe has never heard of such things, someone raised strictly on science or atheism. Do you see the irony in this?

Furthermore, movies have little credibility to me. Especially fictional movies. Never have. They are mostly fake stories portraying fake lives in a fake setting. What if I treated anyone the same as you did kitkat when I encountered them. Let me use your words, "I never dreamed I would actually encounter somebody trying to not only mount an argument for star wars, but dressing up and wanting to become like a star wars character". I instantly lose the opportunity Heaven provided me with, with this individual by saying, "lunatic".

Instead, what would happen if I listened lovingly, try to understand why in their unique journey they have decided to act, believe in, and dress up as someone they are not, someone who is fictitious. Star wars is just the beginning, compared to other fantasies being lived by my fellow human brothers and sisters on earth. How do we win them over in our duty to preach the gospel, calling them lunatics?

When I try to take the approach above, I am usually able to hear the spirit tell me how to reach them in their current understanding in a loving manner, so they can trust me, and feel my genuine love for them, and with that trust I am then able to introduce ideas and truths with heavens guidance and help as that individual is ready for them. I become a friend to them. I don't flatter what I don't approve of, but I don't call or treat them as a lunatic.

Kitkat and others have used scripture throughout this thread. Discuss those scriptures, respond to them. All you and others have done is react, I don't see responses or listening whatsoever, just stating your noble scientific stance while smearing other's credibility for even considering such nonsense.

Being mean spirited and frankly down right holier than thou is what our doctrine expressly warns us members about. This thread is a powerful lesson to me on how not to be with people who have vastly different views than I do, views that I have never even considered, or views that have "no credibility to me" in life.

Maybe I'll gain a friend instead of make my pride-candle brighter if I listen, respond in kind and gentle words, and actually try to understand why this person is believing what they are, rather than react, belittle, shame, and otherwise. We lose, and maybe even will be held accountable in the hereafter for such, unless of course we were even more "ignorant" to the gospel of LOVE, than we are accusing others of being ignorant for even considering the possibility of the earth being flat under a dome.
I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned... - Richard Feynman

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby michaelhord » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:41 pm

If the church adopts the issue it can become greater, so great that they won't be able to build churches or temple fast enough.
Or it can fight the issue and lose horribly.
Proud Nephites lose.
Flat Earth is Biblically sound.
Science is false wisdom of man.
One wrongly translated verse in Helaman causes so much trouble. It reduces Mormons to colluding with fundamentalist christians to figure out how to make the Bible to say what science wants you to believe.
We can fight it and lose or own it and reap the harvest.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Finrock » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:44 pm

gclayjr wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:11 pm
Finrock,
I have PTSD and there have been times when my PTSD has been triggered and when it gets triggered, I am hyper vigilant and wary of any and all thing
Sorry about the PTSD. I didn't know you served in the military. Which branch did you serve in? In which war were you deployed?


Semper FI

George Clay
George,

My PTSD is a result of severe early childhood sexual abuse/rape.

-Finrock
"You can't reason with a wolf" -rewcox

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gclayjr
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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby gclayjr » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:55 pm

Finrock,

Again sorry. I always thought that PTSD was a new name for what used to be called "Shell Shock" or "combat fatigue". I guess that childhood sexual abuse/rape can be both stressful and traumatic.

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby braingrunt » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:52 pm

michaelhord wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:41 pm
If the church adopts the issue it can become greater, so great that they won't be able to build churches or temple fast enough.
Or it can fight the issue and lose horribly.
Proud Nephites lose.
Flat Earth is Biblically sound.
Science is false wisdom of man.
One wrongly translated verse in Helaman causes so much trouble. It reduces Mormons to colluding with fundamentalist christians to figure out how to make the Bible to say what science wants you to believe.
We can fight it and lose or own it and reap the harvest.
I hope and suspect your prediction is wrong. However, supposing your prediction is true: no matter how many convert baptisms we would gain, I don't give a darn. Truth should be what we are after, not amazing church growth reports.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby michaelhord » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:36 am

The church stakes are expected to grow substantially but they don't appear to be.
Ten years ago intelligent design gave us a small boost. Flat Earth appears to pack a bigger boost. I don't know how much more help we are going to get in the way of fighting false science.
I would rather look at flat earth as an opportunity than an enemy and those are pretty much the choices.
I don't know if you can see my Google icon or not but it is the liahona ball. If you will go to Google and type liahona into the search box and then tap images , you will see liahona balls. None of them fit the description of 1 nephi chapter 16. In fact there is an error in the chapter where the translation innacuratly says that the writing is on the pointer verse 29. Nobody in the church knows what this ball looked like but I submit to you that if you go to my YouTube channel (michaelhord49) that you will see what the liahona ball looked like and there is nothing anywhere else like it that you will find. The Liahona ball chapter and the next few chapters after it are slap full of evidence for Jospeh Smith and the Book of Mormon.

Sometimes mistakes should be embraced because they call attention to something we would have missed. I see it as Devine guidance. Maybe God didn't want Joseph Smith to have flat earth on his plate at that time. It would have made things harder than they already were. GOD could also use flat earth as a humility test. Arrogant mormons assume that I am attacking the church . Neither Joseph Smith nor the church are infallible . Joseph made mistakes .
What if the apparent mistake was used to allow false science to hang itself. Proverbs tells us that God does just that. False science would be so easy for the church to prove.

I am not saying that the church should embrace flat earth because I say so.
I am saying that the church should seriously look into the matter with real intent like investigators are asked to when they are given a Book of Mormon.
The church could easily have a large committee thoroughly investigate flat earth.
It would be nice to see the findings whether they are in favor or not.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby samizdat » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:59 am

I cannot believe this is still being debated.

Flat Earth has been debunked and to say otherwise would neglect centuries of observations.

The earth is round and not hollow. Backed up by centuries of evidence.

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby gclayjr » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:01 am

braingrunt,
I hope and suspect your prediction is wrong. However, supposing your prediction is true: no matter how many convert baptisms we would gain, I don't give a darn. Truth should be what we are after, not amazing church growth reports.
Top
Yes!

Regards,

George Clay

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby michaelhord » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:17 am

Truth does not fear investigation

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby Finrock » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:54 am

gclayjr wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:55 pm
Finrock,

Again sorry. I always thought that PTSD was a new name for what used to be called "Shell Shock" or "combat fatigue". I guess that childhood sexual abuse/rape can be both stressful and traumatic.

Regards,

George Clay
Thank you. PSTD is commonly associated with soldiers and shell shock. But, there are many traumatic and stressful situations that can result in PTSD. Yes, being abused and raped as a child is akin to being tortured, especially when it last for years. Not to mention the betrayal and abandonment by those who should have protected you and kept you safe.

-Finrock
"You can't reason with a wolf" -rewcox

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Re: The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

Postby gclayjr » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:01 am

I am a Mormon. I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one and only True Church. I believe that Joseph Smith Saw God the Father and his son Jesus Christ and through them he restored the True Church. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the True word of God. I also believe in the Bible inso far as it is translated correctly. I also believe that much in the Bible is symbolic or allegorical. I believe that the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is STILL the true Church of Jesus Christ upon this earth today, and that Thomas S. Monson is the current and truly appointed prophet for today.

That being said

1) I don't believe that God would lead this church astray in such a way that all references to this earth by the leaders, and ceremonies would falsely refer to is as a globe.

2) I don't believe that God would allow the temple videos to be what they are if the world was flat

3) I believe that Helaman 12:1 is correct
1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.
as is Helaman 12:15
And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

I will follow the direction of God, His spirit, and his Prophets, and Science and observation and let those who want to play word games in order to square the circle of trying to make literal a translation of an allegorical description of the creation of the earth in Genesis into a grand conspiracy.

Whether it be the false belief that the world was created in 144 earth hours, or that the world is flat! There will always be those chasing after the foolish ideas that Satan puts before them to distract them. I think at this point the evidence has been presented, and those who want to persist in this foolishness will listen to nothing, whether scientific, or religious to dissuade them.

They believe in the religion of Conspiracy, the bigger, the wilder the conspiracy the more they believe it. What better conspiracy for those with this mind set than that God has allowed Satan and the usual suspects to completely fool everybody, included the Prophet, his Church and his followers, that everything we know about this globe we live on is actually an illusion... except maybe the one conspiracy that could be greater... maybe that Jesus Christ is not the creator of this earth, it was actually Satan!... now wouldn't that be the ultimate conspiracy to deceive man!


Regards,

George Clay


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