The Earth is Not a Globe!?! Is God literal, water above and below the firmament?

[SmallFarm]

If you believe in Flat Earth then you cannot believe in conventional science on gravity:

Some flat earthers indeed may not believe conventional science in regards to gravity and so those arguments may be useless.

[SmallFarm]

Interesting. Certainly not any more outrageous and improbable than much of the other delusionary things I've read in this forum.

Patriot16

Far more outrageous and improbable than anything I've read on this forum. Why? Because the curvature or the earth and its globe-like nature can be proved, yes, proved, any number of ways.

Proved in a way that does not in any way rely on the testimony of another man?

[larsenb]

. . . I'm new to the theory and find it fascinating. Even if the earth is round - there are still so many unknowns and inconsistencies. Our actual first hand knowledge is extremely limited so we rely heavily upon the information we are fed - which screams proceede with caution and open mindedness. .. . . .

Just to repeat, regarding the globe-like nature of the earth, there are multiple ways to prove it. If I were you, I would'nt get too wrapped up in contrary claims. Kind of a waste of time.

[SmallFarm]

And... that's what I figured. :ymapplause: i-)

One of my many degrees include a masters in GIS and Remote sensing I have worked extensively with satellite imagery and aerial photographs as well as coordinate systems and have a sound knowledge of the earth having lived in the Northern and southern hemispheres where one can view heavenly bodies (moon and stars) from different perspectives such perspectives are impossible with a flat earth. In the Temple they show the earth as a round planet.

When it comes to matters of physical reality, I try to apply science. Since you have all these degrees, can you provide me with a reproducible experiment that the proves the earth is round or even just not flat?

EDIT: I started posting this before you posted your experiment. I will have to think about that and how the experiment would come out on a flat earth. It is the first argument I've seen for a round earth that seems possible since my wife got interested in this subject.

Another simple thing you can do is tie a weight onto the end of a piece of string and walk around the weight will always point straight down towards the center of the earth due to gravity if the earth was flat their would be no center of gravity directly downwards the weight would point off towards the side ie. towards the middle of the earth and not directly downwards depending where you stood on the earth and what your flat map shows as the center of the earth.

So on your flat map which country is in the middle of the pancake earth, so I can know to go live there to reduce international travel time. It would be a great advantage to be centrally located in respect to all land masses.

You'll have to first prove that gravity does indeed pull towards the center of mass and not just "down".

[larsenb]

Interesting. Certainly not any more outrageous and improbable than much of the other delusionary things I've read in this forum.

Patriot16

Far more outrageous and improbable than anything I've read on this forum. Why? Because the curvature or the earth and its globe-like nature can be proved, yes, proved, any number of ways.

Proved in a way that does not in any way rely on the testimony of another man?

Formal science is a consensus activity. The primary method is observation and experiment done by one or more people to form and support a particular hypothesis. They then open up their results to the public in some way with the invitation to either agree or disagree. But any disagreement has to be such that it disproves or modifies the initial hypothesis . . . and these results are in turn offered to the public for approval or rebuttal.

Many of the proofs of the global nature of the earth can be performed by one man. But for the most part, you will probably have to rely on data gathered by someone else.

One way you could prove it, would be to start out from a single point on the earth and walk or sail in an undeviating straight line. You will end up at or very near where you started out. It may take you several lifetimes, but if you did it for each degree of the compass, you would get the same results. And while you are doing this, you will discover that you never encountered any edge, whatsoever.

Airplane flights do this, after a fashion, all the time.

[AI2.0]

Yes, I totally agree. Remember it was the masses that laughed Columbus off the map when he suggested the world was round. Have you ever been in space? I think not YOU DON'T KNOW... I came across the theory and I am extremely intrigued. Why not be open minded enough to have a civil discussion about it. No need to call names or make someone feel dumb. Badly done friends :ymhug:

It's a myth that people thought the earth was flat during Columbus' time. People knew it was round for centuries. I believe it was an Ancient Greek scientist who proved it was round.

Theories are interesting, but when they go into the ridiculous, and anyone gives them any credence....it's sad.

I really think the forum has 'jumped the shark' with this thread. That anyone (other than someone from an Amazonian or New Guinea tribe) would even think the earth might be flat is startling.

[SmallFarm]

Yes, I totally agree. Remember it was the masses that laughed Columbus off the map when he suggested the world was round. Have you ever been in space? I think not YOU DON'T KNOW... I came across the theory and I am extremely intrigued. Why not be open minded enough to have a civil discussion about it. No need to call names or make someone feel dumb. Badly done friends :ymhug:

It's a myth that people thought the earth was flat during Columbus' time. People knew it was round for centuries. I believe it was an Ancient Greek scientist who proved it was round.

Theories are interesting, but when they go into the ridiculous, and anyone gives them any credence....it's sad.

I really think the forum has 'jumped the shark' with this thread. That anyone (other than someone from an Amazonian or New Guinea tribe) would even think the earth might be flat is startling.

It's no surprise when the scriptures have warned us of strong delusion. We know its source. However when we approach this delusion without compassion, our efforts can have the opposite effect of our intention. We must be patient and use careful reasoning coupled with love and tolerance for those who may believe differently than us.

[AI2.0]

It was Eratosthenes of Cyrene around 240 BC.

Here is something Kitkat and Cayenne can teach their children.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Eratosthenes

[Kitkat]

Interesting. Certainly not any more outrageous and improbable than much of the other delusionary things I've read in this forum.

Patriot16

Far more outrageous and improbable than anything I've read on this forum. Why? Because the curvature or the earth and its globe-like nature can be proved, yes, proved, any number of ways.

The same people who are giving us the facts about the curvature of the earth are also battling climate change - some say it is obvious and can be proven, while other claim they can prove it's a hoax.

I speak for myself here and say that all the complex formulas they use to "prove" the roundness of the globe are beyond what I have studied, so until I take the time to understand and study it for myself, it is all second hand information to me. As in I am not physically observing that the earth is round. I am using clues and other peoples data to form my best guess and deciding whose math I trust

[Kitkat]

How do you explain this?

According to this video (which you can replicate at home without more than cardboard, the sun, and a flashlight) the sun is way closer than Britannica and Neil DeGrass Tyson have been telling us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_ppPXChyTo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Curious to know what you all have to say.

[AI2.0]

Yes, I totally agree. Remember it was the masses that laughed Columbus off the map when he suggested the world was round. Have you ever been in space? I think not YOU DON'T KNOW... I came across the theory and I am extremely intrigued. Why not be open minded enough to have a civil discussion about it. No need to call names or make someone feel dumb. Badly done friends :ymhug:

It's a myth that people thought the earth was flat during Columbus' time. People knew it was round for centuries. I believe it was an Ancient Greek scientist who proved it was round.

Theories are interesting, but when they go into the ridiculous, and anyone gives them any credence....it's sad.

I really think the forum has 'jumped the shark' with this thread. That anyone (other than someone from an Amazonian or New Guinea tribe) would even think the earth might be flat is startling.

It's no surprise when the scriptures have warned us of strong delusion. We know its source. However when we approach this delusion without compassion, our efforts can have the opposite effect of our intention. We must be patient and use careful reasoning coupled with love and tolerance for those who may believe differently than us.

You are right, I should be more tolerant. And I was, at first. But then people started buying into the delusion and it was hard to simply 'go along' for the sake of respecting differing beliefs.

I have to ask, do we have to accept all theories shared here or we aren't being supportive? If we point out that they are incorrect or point out evidence which disproves them, are we being intolerant?

[SmallFarm]

teasing..... kinda.
The overall emphasis should be lifting each other up, and though that may be the intention of many here, some could consider the ultimate impact their words may have.

[SmallFarm]

You are right, I should be more tolerant. And I was, at first. But then people started buying into the delusion and it was hard to simply 'go along' for the sake of respecting differing beliefs.

I have to ask, do we have to accept all theories shared here or we aren't being supportive? If we point out that they are incorrect or point out evidence which disproves them, are we being intolerant?

The trick is to correct them in a way in which they won't afterwards believe you are their enemy.

[larsenb]

Interesting. Certainly not any more outrageous and improbable than much of the other delusionary things I've read in this forum.

Patriot16

Far more outrageous and improbable than anything I've read on this forum. Why? Because the curvature or the earth and its globe-like nature can be proved, yes, proved, any number of ways.

The same people who are giving us the facts about the curvature of the earth are also battling climate change - some say it is obvious and can be proven, while other claim they can prove it's a hoax. . . .

Wrong. Global warming proponents are an entirely different animal.

[cayenne]

People will mock. Just go to any "off the mainstream view" topic on forums, youtube comments,etc and people will mock. I have found that usually those that mock, or "roll their eyes" type stuff at these supposedly "stupid" waste of time "conspiracies" are actually very uncomfortable. They feel like there are certain truths that they know, and now others are believing in the possibility of opposites that would shake their very cores if true. People get set in their ways, and they don't like it when their foundations are messed with (we are all like that from time to time)

Think about your whole life supposedly knowing the earth is round, and then some people come out and say its flat…. "are you kidding me" …."who would believe such non sense!"….."you are an idiot to believe something so stupid!"……"wow, I hope you don't teach your kids that garbage!"….."wow, it takes all kinds!".."what an uneducated fool!"……"Why are you wasting your time!"……etc etc

and yet, I have found over and over, that there are many subjects called "conspiracies" that have at least some truth to them. It is sad that most people do not actually take the time to research. How many naysayers out there about the flat earth have actually researched NASA, and all the round earth proofs? Seriously, are those that mock the flat earth on these forums astronomers? Or science teachers? Or something with additional knowledge then what you grew up learning in school? Then, how many people have researched the other side of the equation. How many "educated" in astronomy will actually research the other side and not mock. In other words unless God gives it to you direct, he expects us to research all sides, and prove all things.

Flat earth and questioning the official holocaust story are the 2 top most angering, mocking "conspiracies" I have encountered. Not even 911 being an inside job and evolution are as bad as I have seen with those other 2 subjects. (evolution is pretty vicious sometimes in peoples comments, but flat earth is worse because it encompasses evolutions foundations as being false, and more)

check out the raw high altitude balloon videos on youtube, and then some of NASA's manipulations with a fish eye lens

check out rockets in a vacuum

check out the first radio transmissions from Arlington VA that reached overseas without repeating towers.

actually, if you really want to research, youtube has many videos.

Who knows, maybe the earth is a plane, with a sphere dome over and under, and the sun, moon, and stars move, maybe the plane moves too? Maybe there is a firmament of low earth orbit, and then an outer firmament leaving us free to move in the sphere in which we have been placed. I think we can take versus in Alma and helaman and the Bible, comments from NASA and obama and others, gravity, satellites, mix it all together and come up with a proving of the contraries like Joseph Smith loved to do. Even if we mix them and they both have truth and error, NASA and the government would still need to cover up much of it for there anti-God, evolution, humanism goals.

[larsenb]

People will mock. Just go to any "off the mainstream view" topic on forums, youtube comments,etc and people will mock. I have found that usually those that mock, or "roll their eyes" type stuff at these supposedly "stupid" waste of time "conspiracies" are actually very uncomfortable. They feel like there are certain truths that they know, and now others are believing in the possibility of opposites that would shake their very cores if true. People get set in their ways, and they don't like it when their foundations are messed with (we are all like that from time to time)

Think about your whole life supposedly knowing the earth is round, and then some people come out and say its flat…. "are you kidding me" …."who would believe such non sense!"….."you are an idiot to believe something so stupid!"……"wow, I hope you don't teach your kids that garbage!"….."wow, it takes all kinds!".."what an uneducated fool!"……"Why are you wasting your time!"……etc etc

and yet, I have found over and over, that there are many subjects called "conspiracies" that have at least some truth to them. It is sad that most people do not actually take the time to research. How many naysayers out there about the flat earth have actually researched NASA, and all the round earth proofs? Seriously, are those that mock the flat earth on these forums astronomers? Or science teachers? Or something with additional knowledge then what you grew up learning in school? Then, how many people have researched the other side of the equation. How many "educated" in astronomy will actually research the other side and not mock. In other words unless God gives it to you direct, he expects us to research all sides, and prove all things.

Flat earth and questioning the official holocaust story are the 2 top most angering, mocking "conspiracies" I have encountered. Not even 911 being an inside job and evolution are as bad as I have seen with those other 2 subjects. (evolution is pretty vicious sometimes in peoples comments, but flat earth is worse because it encompasses evolutions foundations as being false, and more)

check out the raw high altitude balloon videos on youtube, and then some of NASA's manipulations with a fish eye lens

check out rockets in a vacuum

check out the first radio transmissions from Arlington VA that reached overseas without repeating towers.

actually, if you really want to research, youtube has many videos.

Who knows, maybe the earth is a plane, with a sphere dome over and under, and the sun, moon, and stars move, maybe the plane moves too? Maybe there is a firmament of low earth orbit, and then an outer firmament leaving us free to move in the sphere in which we have been placed. I think we can take versus in Alma and helaman and the Bible, comments from NASA and obama and others, gravity, satellites, mix it all together and come up with a proving of the contraries like Joseph Smith loved to do. Even if we mix them and they both have truth and error, NASA and the government would still need to cover up much of it for there anti-God, evolution, humanism goals.

I get uncomfortable with people who come across as a bubble off and keep pushing their delusions on everybody. "Who knows, maybe . . . " this or that or anything . . . . is NO kind of argument for anything.

[SmallFarm]

It seems evident with my own eyes that every heavenly sphere is round, why would Earth be any different? SO it would take a considerable amount of evidence to make me question that belief.

[larsenb]

I feel bad for Brian when people start pushing and arguing for something like this. His forum serves a good purpose. Where else can you let it all hang out regarding political, etc., discussions?

I don't like to see the forum labeled as a hangout for nut jobs and cranks. This kind of thread adds to that reputation.

[cayenne]

I feel bad for Brian when people start pushing and arguing for something like this. His forum serves a good purpose. Where else can you let it all hang out regarding political, etc., discussions?

I don't like to see the forum labeled as a hangout for nut jobs and cranks. This kind of thread adds to that reputation.

If you do not like this thread, than kindly leave. There are some of us who rather like discussing these things. It is low and predictable in patterns when people really hate a subject, they will turn around and mock others for discussing it…..I discussed this in my previous post.

I do not feel bad for Bryan, I am glad he allows us to discuss a wide variety of subjects on here. You think they are crazy, that is your opinion and your free to have it. I think they are not crazy and I am free to have it. So let it go, and go to another thread then and discuss whatever you think is worthy of the forums time.

I will not be responding to you again in this thread if you proceed the way you are. Calling this thread a nut job and bringing Brian into it as if he would support your view is wrong. That is called manipulation 101, and it is not being nice.

[AI2.0]

Hey Cayenne and Kitkat, consider me the little boy who yells "The Emperor has no clothes on!!!" Someone needs to say it; this theory is hairbrained and ridiculous. Sorry Smallfarm, but sometimes the kind thing to do for someone is to tell them the truth and sometimes, when someone is so far 'out there', there isn't a 'nice' way to do it.

It's not always the kind thing to allow people to continue in wrong thinking. If a child tells you that 2 + 2 is 5, don't you think it is better to be honest and let them know they are incorrect than allow them to believe something that is false and then later suffer the consequences of false thinking which will eventually come?

[SmallFarm]

Hey Cayenne and Kitkat, consider me the little boy who yells "The Emperor has no clothes on!!!" Someone needs to say it; this theory is hairbrained and ridiculous. Sorry Smallfarm, but sometimes the kind thing to do for someone is to tell them the truth and sometimes, when someone is so far 'out there', there isn't a 'nice' way to do it.

It's not always the kind thing to allow people to continue in wrong thinking. If a child tells you that 2 + 2 is 5, don't you think it is better to be honest and let them know they are incorrect than allow them to believe something that is false and then later suffer the consequences of false thinking which will eventually come?

You don't tell the child that says 2+2=5 that they are hair-brained or ridiculous. You illustrate, in a kind way, exactly how 2+2=4 ;)

[Joel]

some people choose to believe the bible no matter what other things are taught outside the bible, it works for their belief system and makes them happy. At the same time I do not see any problem with not respecting others beliefs either and being 'blasphemous' in their eyes. Personally worrying about other peoples beliefs and taboos has a time and place, for me forums and such isn't really all that high priority for doing that.

[Ungläubige]

How do you explain this?

According the this video (which you can replicate at home without more than cardboard, the sun, and a flashlight) the sun is way closer than Britannica and Neil DeGrass Tyson have been telling us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_ppPXChyTo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Curious to know what you all have to say.

According to your cardboard demonstration, the sun should be right above the clouds. Do you think the sun is that low in the sky, even on a FLAT earth? Do you think planes and satellites fly higher than that sun? Are any flat earth proponents actually theorizing that their sun is only a handful of miles above the earth?

Perhaps a piece of cardboard with holes is not the best model of clouds.

[Robin Hood]

Hey Cayenne and Kitkat, consider me the little boy who yells "The Emperor has no clothes on!!!" Someone needs to say it; this theory is hairbrained and ridiculous. Sorry Smallfarm, but sometimes the kind thing to do for someone is to tell them the truth and sometimes, when someone is so far 'out there', there isn't a 'nice' way to do it.

It's not always the kind thing to allow people to continue in wrong thinking. If a child tells you that 2 + 2 is 5, don't you think it is better to be honest and let them know they are incorrect than allow them to believe something that is false and then later suffer the consequences of false thinking which will eventually come?

Actually A12.0 it appears it's the likes of the flat-earthers who have noticed the emporer has no clothes. In the story everyone had bought in to the perceived wisdom that the emporer had new clothes and that they were of the finest quality. Anyone who couldn't see them was stupid. So everyone went along with it because they didn't want to appear stupid and because everyone else had bought the story.
But the fact is the emporer was naked and the boy could clearly see that things were not as they were said to be.
The flat-earthers are the boy. They are saying, in effect, "where is the curvature? You all say that it's there because someone else says so. But look for yourself. Can you see it?"

From my perspective, I have an open mind. What I mean by that is that things are clearly not as they are "supposed" to be. Simple observations demonstrate the earth is flat. Other, more complicated observations appear to demonstrate something else.
We live in a multi-dimensional universe where things are or appear to be different, even opposite, depending on your vantage point.
Only a fool is dogmatic about these things.

[Ungläubige]

This is cool. I am learning about geodetic surveying vs normal surveying. If you read the link below, and then follow the links at the bottom, there are some pretty educated people who believe the earth is flat.


http://tabooconspiracy.com/blog/flat-ea ... curvature/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That link is mostly gibberish - sloppy math and sloppy reasoning -

From the Wikipedia link embedded in your link above:

"In geodetic surveying the curvature of the earth is taken into account while calculating reduced levels, angles, bearings and distances. This type of surveying is usually employed for large survey works. Survey works up to 100 square miles (260 square kilometers ) are treated as plane and beyond that are treated as geodetic.[15] In geodetic surveying necessary corrections are applied to reduced levels, bearings and other observations.[16]"

Compare this to the quote in your link above:

In geodetic surveying curvature of the earth is taken into account while calculating reduced levels, angles, bearings and distances. This type of surveying is only employed for large survey works. Generally the survey works below 260 kilometers radius are treated as plane and beyond that is treated as geodetic. Thus in this type of surveying necessary corrections are applied to reduced levels, bearings and other observations.”

The website then goes on to conflate 260 square km with 260 km radius, randomly plugs the value into a formula for curvature drop and does some ranting about surveyors, etc...