Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[larsenb]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png (49.82 KiB) Viewed 665 times

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

You must not be familiar with 3 Nephi chapter 8

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

13 And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

Eight states is a large fault zone but it's worth noting that the city of zarahemla was destroyed by fire not necessarily quaking.

Earthquakes that occur in the New Madrid Seismic Zone potentially threaten parts of eight American states: Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma and Mississippi.[2]

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

This is just a hunch but I would say the whirlwinds mentioned in the Book of Mormon is an exceptional match for tornado alley in North America.

[larsenb]

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

You must not be familiar with 3 Nephi chapter 8

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

13 And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

Eight states is a large fault zone but it's worth noting that the city of zarahemla was destroyed by fire not necessarily quaking.

Earthquakes that occur in the New Madrid Seismic Zone potentially threaten parts of eight American states: Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma and Mississippi.[2]

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

I "must not be familiar with 3 Nephi Chapter 8', eh?

Once again, you could gain a lot of insight into this chapter by getting "Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi". He is an engineering geologist, with a lot of experience dealing with damage due to the forces of the earth.

How, pray tell would a massive earthquake centered in southern Missouri cause the City of Moroni to "sink into the depths of the sea", assuming you would place the city on the shores of Lake Michigan or Lake Erie? Were you perhaps subconsciously influenced by the movie, San Andreas?

Or how about the next chapter (Ch. 9) where the "earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain". Tough for an earthquake to do this. Having heard of no examples of such things happening. Now, an earthquake can cause earth/rocks to slide down over population centers, but the law of gravity would preclude the earth being carried up, even to the point of building a "great mountain".

[ripliancum]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

[larsenb]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

If you're talking about Ron Meldrum's DNA claims, Ugo Perego who has specialized in DNA studies of Amerindians among other things, has pointed out how Meldrum is quite a ways off base with his analysis. Perego says he has tried to communicate with Meldrum repeatedly, but gets no reply from him. If you are interested, I could find some articles by Perego on this issue.

Now if Meldrum could show significant correlations with autosomal DNA analyses, he may have something. Mitochondrial studies alone, don't prove much.

And why are you bringing up "Nephites in South America"? This is nothing I've said anything about.

BTW, what do you think of Dr. Brian Stubb's findings of strong elements of Semitic languages, primarily Hebrew, Egyptian and Aramaic present in the Uto-Aztecan linguistic group. He's found 1500 cognate correlations. And Indians speaking these languages are found all down the west coast of Mexico into Guatemala, as well as in Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Texas and Oklahoma, etc. This is the most powerful indirect evidence I've seen for the Book of Mormon outside of the spiritual realm.

[ripliancum]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

If you're talking about Ron Meldrum's DNA claims, Ugo Perego who has specialized in DNA studies of Amerindians among other things, has pointed out how Meldrum is quite a ways off base with his analysis. Perego says he has tried to communicate with Meldrum repeatedly, but gets no reply from him. If you are interested, I could find some articles by Perego on this issue.

Now if Meldrum could show significant correlations with autosomal DNA analyses, he may have something. Mitochondrial studies alone, don't prove much.

And why are you bringing up "Nephites in South America"? This is nothing I've said anything about.

BTW, what do you think of Dr. Brian Stubb's findings of strong elements of Semitic languages, primarily Hebrew, Egyptian and Aramaic present in the Uto-Aztecan linguistic group. He's found 1500 cognate correlations. And Indians speaking these languages are found all down the west coast of Mexico into Guatemala, as well as in Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Texas and Oklahoma, etc. This is the most powerful indirect evidence I've seen for the Book of Mormon outside of the spiritual realm.

There is no doubt that North Americans Indians have Hebrew links and some language links may stretch into Mexico. I think DNA tells the best story all of central and South America have genetics that link to Asia. There is only one genetic marker x2a in North America found in the Middle East. This marker is remarkable in how it ties the Book of Mormon Old Testament and Native American culture.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[the_sign]

I have been providing an internet service for several years regarding the fulfillment of the Book of Daniel (et. al.) from a ca. 50 year old Winnebago.

Winnebago is an Indian word for "dirty water".

Somewhat ironically, the bulk of the service comes down to keeping track of the time of the actual cleansing foretold in Daniel 8:14.

Somehow I think that if Winnebago meant "clean water", I would feel less of a need for the cleansing.

The Book of Mormon stems from the beginning of the Babylonian captivity, and prophet Daniel was already in service to King Nebuchadnezzar.

[larsenb]

Interesting thoughts...

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -34th-year" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Know . . . . .

Thanks. I hadn't heard about the ice core studies regarding volcanic ash.

Just one comment, volcanics and great earthquakes are not mutually exclusive . . . especially in the area of MesoAmerica, where you already have active volcanoes and nearby tectonic plate boundaries. A perfect area for all the events described in 3rd Nephi to have happened, as corroborated by Jerry D. Glover in his book: Geology of the Book of Mormon, 2014.

[larsenb]

When I was a child my grandfather remarked to me that he thought that someday someone would look more closely at the mound builders of the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and try to understand the significance of their culture.
I think Wayne May has done that and made a good case that that is the location of the Book of Mormon geography.
dc

Many others have made an excellent case for the primary Book of Mormon geographical areas being in Central America. Remember, there were many migrations of Nephites and Lamanites to the lands northward, many of whom were never heard from again.

The Hopis have a legend of coming up from the 'red city' in the south and also have a history of burying their weapons. They are known as the people of peace.

[larsenb]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

Who said anything about South America?

The problem I see it with Wayne May's ideas is that he doesn't really seem to grasp the descriptions of the many migrations northward, of both Nephites and Lamanites. He doesn't seem to allow the possibility of many other groups coming in from the Mediterranean and Near/Middle East and elsewhere that may have been entirely unrelated to the Nephites and Lamanites per se, but may have had similar cultural/religious underpinnings.

He ignores the critique of his use of DNA data by working geneticists. I've never seen a reply to their critiques from him. Maybe you can supply one.

[larsenb]

Joseph also said . . . . . . . “The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them. . . . . . .

All this means is that he was referring to a particular set of Indians in these locations. He said nothing about 'Native Americans' in other parts of the United States, Central America and elsewhere.

This is an example of the either/or, black-and-white logical fallacy, also known as the 'bifurcation' logical fallacy.

Wayne May and his followers seem to be particularly susceptible to this fallacy along with the ones called: sweeping and hasty generalizations. And I don't think I've ever seen adequate rebuttals to the very telling critiques that have been written about his ideas and model. One gets the sense 'Mayans' (in this case, followers of Wayne May) are simply holding on to their ideas as tightly and as blindered as they can.

One of the strengths of the Mesoamerican model is that its proponents don't deny that Nephites/Mayans may have migrated, in part, to the lands northward. And I've never seen them deny or ignore the possibility that many other groups may have come into the New World, from wherever and whenever they may have made their migrations. In fact, John Sorenson (who I don't always agree with), has even written a book cataloguing possible examples of these migrations.

[larsenb]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

Nope, not true. But not worth arguing the point with you.