Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » September 26th, 2016, 10:46 pm

Here are some interesting ties that Native American ties have to the Book of Mormon. To the point the chief names and tribes are the same as Book of Mormon names.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ormon.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » September 26th, 2016, 11:00 pm

[quote="ripliancum"]Here are some interesting ties that Native American ties have to the Book of Mormon. To the point the chief names and tribes are the same as Book of Mormon names.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ormon.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]
Oops posted this twice is there anyway to delete the duplicate post

Lexew1899 · Post by **Lexew1899** » September 26th, 2016, 11:10 pm

This guy did a really interesting video on the subject. Very long, but worth watching when you have the time...

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » September 27th, 2016, 7:36 am

Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

Native American ties to the Book of Mormon, either through legend or culture.

Kishkumen

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun, Kishkumen will come up. Besides Isrealis Ojibwa Indians have the highest concentration of haplogroup X DNA.

Onidah

The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah

Onondaga

In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith. He had vision as to who the bones belonged to.

“At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.”

The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but has obvious ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

Native American Council Tower

Mosiah 2:7

7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram’s, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian’s march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey says that this officer found in the center of each town ”a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
(Thomas 1889 pg. 32)

The Lamanite Daughters

This is a stretch, but worth the effort. It has bits and pieces of the account of the Lamanite daughters. The Cherokee have a myth listed below, which I find ties to the Lamanite daughters who would go out to Shemlon to dance and make merry, but are abducted by the priests of Noah and become their spouses. The Lamanites try to find the daughters and blame the Nephites for their disappearance, which causes a war. This war continues until the Lamanites are told that the Nephites did not abduct the girls. The daughters stop the priests from being killed when they are found out.

“Allured by the haunting sound and diamond sparkle of a mountain stream, she wandered far up into a solitary glen[.] The dream picture of a fairyland was presently broken by the soft touch of a strange hand. The spirit of her dream occupied a place at her side, and, wooing, won her for his bride.
“Her supposed abduction caused great excitement among her people, who made diligent search for her recovery in their own villages. Being unsuccessful, they made war upon the neighboring tribes in the hope of finding the place of her concealment. Grieved because of so much bloodshed and sorrow, she besought the great chief[.] She appeared unto the chiefs in a dream (to stop the fighting).”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 478)

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti-Nephi’s, a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground, never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before, I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons - this is one of them.

The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.”
(South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785)

Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase ‘Bury the Hatchet: “ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.”

Native American Idioms and Phraseology

Native American idioms and phraseology, as described by early settlers, are consistent with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. Below are some examples of Native American idioms consistent with scripture. Examples are from John Heckewelder’s Manners and Customs of The Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States.

Native American saying: “I will place you under my wings!”

Meaning: I will protect you at all hazards! You shall be perfectly safe, nobody shall molest you!

Scripture: 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: ”To bury deep in the earth” (an injury done)

Meaning: To consign it to oblivion.

Scripture: 2 Nephi 26:5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them.
(Heckewelder pg. 140)

Native American saying: “You have spoken with your lips only, not from the heart!”

Meaning: You endeavor to deceive me; you do not intend to do as you say!

Scripture: 2 Nephi 27:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: “draw the thorns out of your feet and legs, grease your Stiffened joints with oil, and wipe the sweat off your body.”

Meaning: I make you feel comfortable after your fatiguing journey, that you may enjoy yourself while with us.

Hebrew Custom: The washing of feet is a Hebrew custom. It was the first item done when entering a house or tent. The host would provide the water and the guest would wash his own feet. If the host was wealthy, a slave would wash the feet.

Anointing of oil was used by Jews to refresh and invigorate the body. This custom is still done today by Arabians. In the example there are some similarities in the cleaning of feet and legs from thorns and the anointing of oil or grease to refresh the body.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

marc · Post by **marc** » September 27th, 2016, 10:22 am

http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/voh.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » September 28th, 2016, 10:07 pm

marc wrote:http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/voh.pdf

The same names in the Book of Mormon as in Indian tribes can be looked at as one of two things evidence or plagerism. If you have a testimony then it's obviously evidence

DesertWonderer · September 29th, 2016, 11:59 am

Interesting thoughts...

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -34th-year" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Know

In the thirty and fourth year, Mormon carefully documented “a great and terrible tempest … terrible thunder … exceedingly sharp lightnings” and “thick darkness,” even a “vapor of darkness” which could be felt, and prevented the lighting of fire (3 Nephi 8:6–7, 20–22). This had been predicted in detail by prophets such as Nephi son of Lehi, Zenos, and Samuel the Lamanite.1

In the 1960s, Hugh Nibley compared these Book of Mormon accounts to descriptions of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.2 Since that time, several other scholars, including many professional geologists, have examined these accounts and widely agreed that the three-day darkness and other destructive forces described in the Book of Mormon accounts involve a volcanic eruption.3

The main reason for this is the three-day period of darkness.4 Geologists who have studied the 3 Nephi 8 account generally agree that nothing except volcanic ash and dust clouds could account for the three days of darkness, as it is described.5 Not only the darkness, but the excessive lightning, thundering, tempest, and many other features can all be explained by volcanic activity.6

A lightning storm erupts inside the ash cloud of an erupting volcano in Indonesia. Image via mirror.co.uk

In the most recent and thorough analysis by a professional geologist, Jerry Grover, Jr. concluded, “In order to account for the destruction described in 3rd Nephi, it is clear that a volcano and a regional earthquake are indicated.”7 Earthquakes are known to trigger volcanic eruptions, especially when a volcano is located on or near a fault-line.8

After analyzing all the destructive elements mentioned in the Book of Mormon accounts, Grover determined that the best-fit scenario is a strike-slip fault zone, near a coast, with an active volcano nearby.9 There is at least one fault system in the Americas which meets these criteria: the Veracruz fault system in Mexico.10 Grover noted, “The Veracruz fault segment … is a strike-slip fault, … located on and adjacent to the coastal plains … [and] has a major volcano sitting directly on the fault system, the volcano San Martín.”11

In some Book of Mormon geography models, Veracruz, Mexico is part of the land northward, which experienced greater damage during the cataclysmic events (3 Nephi 8:12).12 Interestingly, while it is impossible to prove the exact timing of a volcanic eruption, current evidence indicates that the San Martín volcano likely experienced an eruption event in the first century AD.13 Further evidence suggests that during or around the first century AD, Mesoamerica experienced widespread volcanic activity.14

Additional evidence comes from ice core samples from Greenland and Antarctica. While the estimated dates are still not exact, using ice cores “tends to be fairly good” with margins of error of only a few years.15 After examining documented dates for volcanic events in four different ice core samples, geologist Benjamin R. Jordan concluded, “There is evidence for large eruptions [somewhere in the world], within the margin of error, for the period of AD 30 to 40.”16

A section of an ice core in which the vertical layers represent individual years and seasons. Ash layers can also determine the presence of volcanic activity. Image via Wikimedia commons

Ice cores, therefore, offer evidence that there was a major volcanic event close to the timing of Christ’s death.17 Yet ice cores have the drawback of not being able to pinpoint the location of the volcanic events they document from all around the world.18 A correlation to Mesoamerica, however, is possible, given the evidence already mentioned for extensive volcanic activity around this time.19

The Why

In graphic detail, the Book of Mormon documents a divinely caused natural disaster occurring at the time of Christ’s death that many geologists agree appears to have involved a volcanic eruption, most likely occurring simultaneously with an earthquake along a strike-slip fault line. Thus far, current geologic evidence supports the following conclusions:

At least one region in the Americas (Veracruz, Mexico) possessed the necessary geologic characteristics.
At least one volcano in that region (San Martín) appears to have erupted in the first century AD.
There was further volcanic activity in Mesoamerica in and around the first century AD.
Ice core samples indicate that a major volcanic event took place somewhere in the world around AD 30–40—around or close to the time of Christ’s death.
Jesus Christ Appears to the Nephites, by Arnold Friberg

While none of this can be linked directly to the events described in 3 Nephi, it goes to show that, as with the sign at Christ’s birth,20 there is nothing scientifically implausible in the account given in 3 Nephi 8–10. In fact, the fulfillment of this prophesied volcanic disaster is strikingly realistic, especially its three days of smoky vapor and thick darkness.

Also, as was the sign of great light at the time of Christ’s birth, the profound darkness at his death and time in the tomb is strongly symbolic. Just as the “excessive light surrounding Christ’s birth acts as a kind of morning,” the “darkness surrounding Christ’s death acts as a kind of evening.”21 Alvin Benson aptly stated, “It appears that the earth was symbolically manifesting its gloom over the death of its creator.”22

But even the darkest of nights come to end. The darkness dissipated as the Savior conquered death, and within the year righteous Nephites and Lamanites witnessed the risen, glorified Lord in all his majesty (3 Nephi 11).

President Ezra Taft Benson taught, “The record of the Nephite history just prior to the Savior’s visit reveals many parallels to our own day as we anticipate the Savior’s second coming.”23 This statement warns readers of further societal decay and impending darkness and destruction. But it also enables them to glimpse the grandeur and glory that is to follow for the humble and penitent who come unto Christ.

Further Reading

Neal Rappleye, “‘The Great and Terrible Judgements of the Lord’: Destruction and Disaster in 3 Nephi and the Geology of Mesoamerica,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 15 (2015): 143–157.

Jerry D. Grover, Jr., Geology of the Book of Mormon (Vineyard, UT: Grover Publications, 2014).

Benjamin R. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 78–87.

Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997–1998): 136–190.

1.1 Nephi 12:1–3, 5; 19:10–11; Helaman 14:20–27
2. Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, 2nd edition (Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1988), 231–238. Since Cumorah originally ran as a series in the Improvement Era from 1964–1967.
3. John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1985), 129, 318–323; James L. Baer, “The Third Nephi Disaster: A Geological View,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986): 129–132; Alvin K. Benson, “Geological Upheaval and Darkness in 3 Nephi 8–10,” in The Book of Mormon: Third Nephi 9–30, “This is My Gospel,” ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993), 59–73; Russell H. Ball, “An Hypothesis concerning the Three Days of Darkness Among the Nephites,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 2, no. 1 (1993): 107–123; John A. Tvedtnes, “Historical Parallels to the Destruction at the Time of the Crucifixion,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 3, no. 1 (1994): 170–186; John Gee, “Notes and Communications—Another Note on the Three Days of Darkness,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 6, no. 2 (1997): 235–244; Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997–1998): 136–190; Benjamin R. Jordan, “‘Many Great and Notable Cities Were Sunk’: Liquefaction in the Book of Mormon,” BYU Studies 38, no. 3 (1999): 119–122; “Volcanic and Ice Dating in the New World,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10, no. 1 (2001): 75; “When Day Turned to Night,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10, no. 2 (2001): 66–67; Benjamin R. Jordan, “Investigating New World Volcanism at the Time of Christ’s Death,” Insights: A Window on the Ancient World 23, no. 6 (2003): 3–4; Matthew Roper, “A Note on Volcanism and the Book of Mormon,” Insights: The Newsletter of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship 29, no. 4 (2009): 4; Benjamin R. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 78–87; Brant A. Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical and Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City, UT: Greg Kofford Books, 2007), 5:300–312; John L. Lund, Joseph Smith and the Geography of Book of Mormon (The Communication Company, 2012), 173–178; John L. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex: An Ancient American Book (Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Deseret Book and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, 2013), 641–649; Jerry D. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon (Vineyard, UT: Grover Publications, 2014); Brant A. Gardner, Traditions of the Fathers: The Book of Mormon as History (Salt Lake City, UT: Greg Kofford Books, 2015), 343–351; Neal Rappleye, “‘The Great and Terrible Judgements of the Lord’: Destruction and Disaster in 3 Nephi and the Geology of Mesoamerica,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 15 (2015): 143–157.
4. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year,” 173: “One of the common themes that can be found in almost all accounts of explosive volcanic eruptions is the darkness created by the fall of ash. This darkness may last for a few hours or a few days, and the historical descriptions mimic the terminology used in the Book of Mormon.” Benson, “Geological Upheaval,” 64: “Volcanic ash, smoke, and gases, along with dust and debris rising into the air from a large earthquake, could have produced the ‘vapor of darkness’ spoken of in 3 Nephi 8:20 and 10:13.” Ball, “An Hypothesis concerning the Three Days of Darkness,” 113: the “period of darkness was caused by an immense local cloud of volcanic ash.”
5. An earthquake in 1811 felt throughout the eastern US reportedly caused an “awful darkness of the atmosphere,” however it only lasted briefly. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 156 explained that earthquakes are not known to cause lengthy periods of darkness. “The mists or vapors of darkness are described as being widespread. The only realistic explanation for this phenomenon is a volcanic ash/tephra cloud disseminated as a result of a volcanic eruption. Occasionally during the initial moments of earthquakes, dust can be generated from shaken buildings or by brief release of sometimes pungent soil gases, but these have never been observed in modern earthquakes to last more than a few hours, and the same is indicated for pre-modern earthquakes by historic anecdote. Earthquake dust has not been observed to inhibit ignition. Volcanic ash distribution has been historically documented to inhibit combustion and last for days at a time.” Also see Rappleye, “The Great and Terrible Judgements,” 153.
6. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year,” 136–190; Lund, Joseph Smith and the Geography of Book of Mormon, 173–178; Gardner, Second Witness, 5:300–312.
7. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 119.
8. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 137.
9. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 139–141.
10. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 139–148.
11. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 148.
12. Sorenson, Ancient American Setting, 46; V. Garth Norman, Book of Mormon–Mesoamerica Geography: History Study Map (American Fork, UT: ARCON, 2008), 3; Joseph L. Allen and Blake J. Allen, Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon, revised edition (American Fork, UT: Covenant Communications, 2011), 428–465; Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 508–509; 712–714.
13. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 39; “When Day Turned to Night,” 66–67.
14. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 641–649; Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 32–49. Grover’s work documents as many as six volcanos active around the first century AD, ranging from central Mexico to southern Guatemala.
15. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 84.
16. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87.
17. The exact year of Christ’s death is also uncertain and highly debated, though most scholars would place it around AD 30. See Thomas A. Wayment, “Appendix—The Birth and Death Dates of Jesus Christ,” in The Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ: From Bethlehem Through the Sermon on the Mount, ed. Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and Thomas A. Wayment (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2005), 383–394; Jeffrey R. Chadwick, “Dating the Death of Jesus Christ,” BYU Studies Quarterly 54, no. 4 (2015): 135–191.
18. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87: “However, so far it is not possible to determine the exact geographic location of those eruptions.”
19. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87, similarly argued, “the discovery of a volcanic eruption at Tacaná volcano [in Mesoamerica, ca. AD 25–72] during the period in question, combined with the ice-core record, seems to strengthen the argument for an eruption as part of the cause of destruction described in 3 Nephi.”
20. Book of Mormon Central, “How was there a Night without Darkness? (3 Nephi 1:15),” KnoWhy 188 (September 15, 2016).
21. Kimberly M. Berkey, “Temporality and Fulfillment in 3 Nephi 1,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 24 (2015): 74.
22. Benson, “Geological Upheaval,” 63.
23. Ezra Taft Benson, A Witness and a Warning: A Modern-day Prophet Testifies of the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1988), 37, cf. p. 20.

David13 · Post by **David13** » September 29th, 2016, 4:59 pm

When I was a child my grandfather remarked to me that he thought that someday someone would look more closely at the mound builders of the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and try to understand the significance of their culture.
I think Wayne May has done that and made a good case that that is the location of the Book of Mormon geography.
dc

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » October 1st, 2016, 8:44 pm

DesertWonderer wrote:Interesting thoughts...

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -34th-year" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Know

In the thirty and fourth year, Mormon carefully documented “a great and terrible tempest … terrible thunder … exceedingly sharp lightnings” and “thick darkness,” even a “vapor of darkness” which could be felt, and prevented the lighting of fire (3 Nephi 8:6–7, 20–22). This had been predicted in detail by prophets such as Nephi son of Lehi, Zenos, and Samuel the Lamanite.1

In the 1960s, Hugh Nibley compared these Book of Mormon accounts to descriptions of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.2 Since that time, several other scholars, including many professional geologists, have examined these accounts and widely agreed that the three-day darkness and other destructive forces described in the Book of Mormon accounts involve a volcanic eruption.3

The main reason for this is the three-day period of darkness.4 Geologists who have studied the 3 Nephi 8 account generally agree that nothing except volcanic ash and dust clouds could account for the three days of darkness, as it is described.5 Not only the darkness, but the excessive lightning, thundering, tempest, and many other features can all be explained by volcanic activity.6

A lightning storm erupts inside the ash cloud of an erupting volcano in Indonesia. Image via mirror.co.uk

In the most recent and thorough analysis by a professional geologist, Jerry Grover, Jr. concluded, “In order to account for the destruction described in 3rd Nephi, it is clear that a volcano and a regional earthquake are indicated.”7 Earthquakes are known to trigger volcanic eruptions, especially when a volcano is located on or near a fault-line.8

After analyzing all the destructive elements mentioned in the Book of Mormon accounts, Grover determined that the best-fit scenario is a strike-slip fault zone, near a coast, with an active volcano nearby.9 There is at least one fault system in the Americas which meets these criteria: the Veracruz fault system in Mexico.10 Grover noted, “The Veracruz fault segment … is a strike-slip fault, … located on and adjacent to the coastal plains … [and] has a major volcano sitting directly on the fault system, the volcano San Martín.”11

In some Book of Mormon geography models, Veracruz, Mexico is part of the land northward, which experienced greater damage during the cataclysmic events (3 Nephi 8:12).12 Interestingly, while it is impossible to prove the exact timing of a volcanic eruption, current evidence indicates that the San Martín volcano likely experienced an eruption event in the first century AD.13 Further evidence suggests that during or around the first century AD, Mesoamerica experienced widespread volcanic activity.14

Additional evidence comes from ice core samples from Greenland and Antarctica. While the estimated dates are still not exact, using ice cores “tends to be fairly good” with margins of error of only a few years.15 After examining documented dates for volcanic events in four different ice core samples, geologist Benjamin R. Jordan concluded, “There is evidence for large eruptions [somewhere in the world], within the margin of error, for the period of AD 30 to 40.”16

A section of an ice core in which the vertical layers represent individual years and seasons. Ash layers can also determine the presence of volcanic activity. Image via Wikimedia commons

Ice cores, therefore, offer evidence that there was a major volcanic event close to the timing of Christ’s death.17 Yet ice cores have the drawback of not being able to pinpoint the location of the volcanic events they document from all around the world.18 A correlation to Mesoamerica, however, is possible, given the evidence already mentioned for extensive volcanic activity around this time.19

The Why

In graphic detail, the Book of Mormon documents a divinely caused natural disaster occurring at the time of Christ’s death that many geologists agree appears to have involved a volcanic eruption, most likely occurring simultaneously with an earthquake along a strike-slip fault line. Thus far, current geologic evidence supports the following conclusions:

At least one region in the Americas (Veracruz, Mexico) possessed the necessary geologic characteristics.
At least one volcano in that region (San Martín) appears to have erupted in the first century AD.
There was further volcanic activity in Mesoamerica in and around the first century AD.
Ice core samples indicate that a major volcanic event took place somewhere in the world around AD 30–40—around or close to the time of Christ’s death.
Jesus Christ Appears to the Nephites, by Arnold Friberg

While none of this can be linked directly to the events described in 3 Nephi, it goes to show that, as with the sign at Christ’s birth,20 there is nothing scientifically implausible in the account given in 3 Nephi 8–10. In fact, the fulfillment of this prophesied volcanic disaster is strikingly realistic, especially its three days of smoky vapor and thick darkness.

Also, as was the sign of great light at the time of Christ’s birth, the profound darkness at his death and time in the tomb is strongly symbolic. Just as the “excessive light surrounding Christ’s birth acts as a kind of morning,” the “darkness surrounding Christ’s death acts as a kind of evening.”21 Alvin Benson aptly stated, “It appears that the earth was symbolically manifesting its gloom over the death of its creator.”22

But even the darkest of nights come to end. The darkness dissipated as the Savior conquered death, and within the year righteous Nephites and Lamanites witnessed the risen, glorified Lord in all his majesty (3 Nephi 11).

President Ezra Taft Benson taught, “The record of the Nephite history just prior to the Savior’s visit reveals many parallels to our own day as we anticipate the Savior’s second coming.”23 This statement warns readers of further societal decay and impending darkness and destruction. But it also enables them to glimpse the grandeur and glory that is to follow for the humble and penitent who come unto Christ.

Further Reading

Neal Rappleye, “‘The Great and Terrible Judgements of the Lord’: Destruction and Disaster in 3 Nephi and the Geology of Mesoamerica,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 15 (2015): 143–157.

Jerry D. Grover, Jr., Geology of the Book of Mormon (Vineyard, UT: Grover Publications, 2014).

Benjamin R. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 78–87.

Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997–1998): 136–190.

1.1 Nephi 12:1–3, 5; 19:10–11; Helaman 14:20–27
2. Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, 2nd edition (Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1988), 231–238. Since Cumorah originally ran as a series in the Improvement Era from 1964–1967.
3. John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1985), 129, 318–323; James L. Baer, “The Third Nephi Disaster: A Geological View,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986): 129–132; Alvin K. Benson, “Geological Upheaval and Darkness in 3 Nephi 8–10,” in The Book of Mormon: Third Nephi 9–30, “This is My Gospel,” ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993), 59–73; Russell H. Ball, “An Hypothesis concerning the Three Days of Darkness Among the Nephites,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 2, no. 1 (1993): 107–123; John A. Tvedtnes, “Historical Parallels to the Destruction at the Time of the Crucifixion,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 3, no. 1 (1994): 170–186; John Gee, “Notes and Communications—Another Note on the Three Days of Darkness,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 6, no. 2 (1997): 235–244; Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997–1998): 136–190; Benjamin R. Jordan, “‘Many Great and Notable Cities Were Sunk’: Liquefaction in the Book of Mormon,” BYU Studies 38, no. 3 (1999): 119–122; “Volcanic and Ice Dating in the New World,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10, no. 1 (2001): 75; “When Day Turned to Night,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10, no. 2 (2001): 66–67; Benjamin R. Jordan, “Investigating New World Volcanism at the Time of Christ’s Death,” Insights: A Window on the Ancient World 23, no. 6 (2003): 3–4; Matthew Roper, “A Note on Volcanism and the Book of Mormon,” Insights: The Newsletter of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship 29, no. 4 (2009): 4; Benjamin R. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 78–87; Brant A. Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical and Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City, UT: Greg Kofford Books, 2007), 5:300–312; John L. Lund, Joseph Smith and the Geography of Book of Mormon (The Communication Company, 2012), 173–178; John L. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex: An Ancient American Book (Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Deseret Book and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, 2013), 641–649; Jerry D. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon (Vineyard, UT: Grover Publications, 2014); Brant A. Gardner, Traditions of the Fathers: The Book of Mormon as History (Salt Lake City, UT: Greg Kofford Books, 2015), 343–351; Neal Rappleye, “‘The Great and Terrible Judgements of the Lord’: Destruction and Disaster in 3 Nephi and the Geology of Mesoamerica,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 15 (2015): 143–157.
4. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year,” 173: “One of the common themes that can be found in almost all accounts of explosive volcanic eruptions is the darkness created by the fall of ash. This darkness may last for a few hours or a few days, and the historical descriptions mimic the terminology used in the Book of Mormon.” Benson, “Geological Upheaval,” 64: “Volcanic ash, smoke, and gases, along with dust and debris rising into the air from a large earthquake, could have produced the ‘vapor of darkness’ spoken of in 3 Nephi 8:20 and 10:13.” Ball, “An Hypothesis concerning the Three Days of Darkness,” 113: the “period of darkness was caused by an immense local cloud of volcanic ash.”
5. An earthquake in 1811 felt throughout the eastern US reportedly caused an “awful darkness of the atmosphere,” however it only lasted briefly. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 156 explained that earthquakes are not known to cause lengthy periods of darkness. “The mists or vapors of darkness are described as being widespread. The only realistic explanation for this phenomenon is a volcanic ash/tephra cloud disseminated as a result of a volcanic eruption. Occasionally during the initial moments of earthquakes, dust can be generated from shaken buildings or by brief release of sometimes pungent soil gases, but these have never been observed in modern earthquakes to last more than a few hours, and the same is indicated for pre-modern earthquakes by historic anecdote. Earthquake dust has not been observed to inhibit ignition. Volcanic ash distribution has been historically documented to inhibit combustion and last for days at a time.” Also see Rappleye, “The Great and Terrible Judgements,” 153.
6. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year,” 136–190; Lund, Joseph Smith and the Geography of Book of Mormon, 173–178; Gardner, Second Witness, 5:300–312.
7. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 119.
8. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 137.
9. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 139–141.
10. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 139–148.
11. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 148.
12. Sorenson, Ancient American Setting, 46; V. Garth Norman, Book of Mormon–Mesoamerica Geography: History Study Map (American Fork, UT: ARCON, 2008), 3; Joseph L. Allen and Blake J. Allen, Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon, revised edition (American Fork, UT: Covenant Communications, 2011), 428–465; Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 508–509; 712–714.
13. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 39; “When Day Turned to Night,” 66–67.
14. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 641–649; Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 32–49. Grover’s work documents as many as six volcanos active around the first century AD, ranging from central Mexico to southern Guatemala.
15. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 84.
16. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87.
17. The exact year of Christ’s death is also uncertain and highly debated, though most scholars would place it around AD 30. See Thomas A. Wayment, “Appendix—The Birth and Death Dates of Jesus Christ,” in The Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ: From Bethlehem Through the Sermon on the Mount, ed. Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and Thomas A. Wayment (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2005), 383–394; Jeffrey R. Chadwick, “Dating the Death of Jesus Christ,” BYU Studies Quarterly 54, no. 4 (2015): 135–191.
18. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87: “However, so far it is not possible to determine the exact geographic location of those eruptions.”
19. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87, similarly argued, “the discovery of a volcanic eruption at Tacaná volcano [in Mesoamerica, ca. AD 25–72] during the period in question, combined with the ice-core record, seems to strengthen the argument for an eruption as part of the cause of destruction described in 3 Nephi.”
20. Book of Mormon Central, “How was there a Night without Darkness? (3 Nephi 1:15),” KnoWhy 188 (September 15, 2016).
21. Kimberly M. Berkey, “Temporality and Fulfillment in 3 Nephi 1,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 24 (2015): 74.
22. Benson, “Geological Upheaval,” 63.
23. Ezra Taft Benson, A Witness and a Warning: A Modern-day Prophet Testifies of the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1988), 37, cf. p. 20.

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » October 1st, 2016, 8:52 pm

ripliancum wrote:
DesertWonderer wrote:Interesting thoughts...

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -34th-year" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Know

In the thirty and fourth year, Mormon carefully documented “a great and terrible tempest … terrible thunder … exceedingly sharp lightnings” and “thick darkness,” even a “vapor of darkness” which could be felt, and prevented the lighting of fire (3 Nephi 8:6–7, 20–22). This had been predicted in detail by prophets such as Nephi son of Lehi, Zenos, and Samuel the Lamanite.1

In the 1960s, Hugh Nibley compared these Book of Mormon accounts to descriptions of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.2 Since that time, several other scholars, including many professional geologists, have examined these accounts and widely agreed that the three-day darkness and other destructive forces described in the Book of Mormon accounts involve a volcanic eruption.3

The main reason for this is the three-day period of darkness.4 Geologists who have studied the 3 Nephi 8 account generally agree that nothing except volcanic ash and dust clouds could account for the three days of darkness, as it is described.5 Not only the darkness, but the excessive lightning, thundering, tempest, and many other features can all be explained by volcanic activity.6

A lightning storm erupts inside the ash cloud of an erupting volcano in Indonesia. Image via mirror.co.uk

In the most recent and thorough analysis by a professional geologist, Jerry Grover, Jr. concluded, “In order to account for the destruction described in 3rd Nephi, it is clear that a volcano and a regional earthquake are indicated.”7 Earthquakes are known to trigger volcanic eruptions, especially when a volcano is located on or near a fault-line.8

After analyzing all the destructive elements mentioned in the Book of Mormon accounts, Grover determined that the best-fit scenario is a strike-slip fault zone, near a coast, with an active volcano nearby.9 There is at least one fault system in the Americas which meets these criteria: the Veracruz fault system in Mexico.10 Grover noted, “The Veracruz fault segment … is a strike-slip fault, … located on and adjacent to the coastal plains … [and] has a major volcano sitting directly on the fault system, the volcano San Martín.”11

In some Book of Mormon geography models, Veracruz, Mexico is part of the land northward, which experienced greater damage during the cataclysmic events (3 Nephi 8:12).12 Interestingly, while it is impossible to prove the exact timing of a volcanic eruption, current evidence indicates that the San Martín volcano likely experienced an eruption event in the first century AD.13 Further evidence suggests that during or around the first century AD, Mesoamerica experienced widespread volcanic activity.14

Additional evidence comes from ice core samples from Greenland and Antarctica. While the estimated dates are still not exact, using ice cores “tends to be fairly good” with margins of error of only a few years.15 After examining documented dates for volcanic events in four different ice core samples, geologist Benjamin R. Jordan concluded, “There is evidence for large eruptions [somewhere in the world], within the margin of error, for the period of AD 30 to 40.”16

A section of an ice core in which the vertical layers represent individual years and seasons. Ash layers can also determine the presence of volcanic activity. Image via Wikimedia commons

Ice cores, therefore, offer evidence that there was a major volcanic event close to the timing of Christ’s death.17 Yet ice cores have the drawback of not being able to pinpoint the location of the volcanic events they document from all around the world.18 A correlation to Mesoamerica, however, is possible, given the evidence already mentioned for extensive volcanic activity around this time.19

The Why

In graphic detail, the Book of Mormon documents a divinely caused natural disaster occurring at the time of Christ’s death that many geologists agree appears to have involved a volcanic eruption, most likely occurring simultaneously with an earthquake along a strike-slip fault line. Thus far, current geologic evidence supports the following conclusions:

At least one region in the Americas (Veracruz, Mexico) possessed the necessary geologic characteristics.
At least one volcano in that region (San Martín) appears to have erupted in the first century AD.
There was further volcanic activity in Mesoamerica in and around the first century AD.
Ice core samples indicate that a major volcanic event took place somewhere in the world around AD 30–40—around or close to the time of Christ’s death.
Jesus Christ Appears to the Nephites, by Arnold Friberg

While none of this can be linked directly to the events described in 3 Nephi, it goes to show that, as with the sign at Christ’s birth,20 there is nothing scientifically implausible in the account given in 3 Nephi 8–10. In fact, the fulfillment of this prophesied volcanic disaster is strikingly realistic, especially its three days of smoky vapor and thick darkness.

Also, as was the sign of great light at the time of Christ’s birth, the profound darkness at his death and time in the tomb is strongly symbolic. Just as the “excessive light surrounding Christ’s birth acts as a kind of morning,” the “darkness surrounding Christ’s death acts as a kind of evening.”21 Alvin Benson aptly stated, “It appears that the earth was symbolically manifesting its gloom over the death of its creator.”22

But even the darkest of nights come to end. The darkness dissipated as the Savior conquered death, and within the year righteous Nephites and Lamanites witnessed the risen, glorified Lord in all his majesty (3 Nephi 11).

President Ezra Taft Benson taught, “The record of the Nephite history just prior to the Savior’s visit reveals many parallels to our own day as we anticipate the Savior’s second coming.”23 This statement warns readers of further societal decay and impending darkness and destruction. But it also enables them to glimpse the grandeur and glory that is to follow for the humble and penitent who come unto Christ.

Further Reading

Neal Rappleye, “‘The Great and Terrible Judgements of the Lord’: Destruction and Disaster in 3 Nephi and the Geology of Mesoamerica,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 15 (2015): 143–157.

Jerry D. Grover, Jr., Geology of the Book of Mormon (Vineyard, UT: Grover Publications, 2014).

Benjamin R. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 78–87.

Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997–1998): 136–190.

1.1 Nephi 12:1–3, 5; 19:10–11; Helaman 14:20–27
2. Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, 2nd edition (Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1988), 231–238. Since Cumorah originally ran as a series in the Improvement Era from 1964–1967.
3. John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1985), 129, 318–323; James L. Baer, “The Third Nephi Disaster: A Geological View,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986): 129–132; Alvin K. Benson, “Geological Upheaval and Darkness in 3 Nephi 8–10,” in The Book of Mormon: Third Nephi 9–30, “This is My Gospel,” ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993), 59–73; Russell H. Ball, “An Hypothesis concerning the Three Days of Darkness Among the Nephites,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 2, no. 1 (1993): 107–123; John A. Tvedtnes, “Historical Parallels to the Destruction at the Time of the Crucifixion,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 3, no. 1 (1994): 170–186; John Gee, “Notes and Communications—Another Note on the Three Days of Darkness,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 6, no. 2 (1997): 235–244; Bart J. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologist’s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi,” BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997–1998): 136–190; Benjamin R. Jordan, “‘Many Great and Notable Cities Were Sunk’: Liquefaction in the Book of Mormon,” BYU Studies 38, no. 3 (1999): 119–122; “Volcanic and Ice Dating in the New World,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10, no. 1 (2001): 75; “When Day Turned to Night,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10, no. 2 (2001): 66–67; Benjamin R. Jordan, “Investigating New World Volcanism at the Time of Christ’s Death,” Insights: A Window on the Ancient World 23, no. 6 (2003): 3–4; Matthew Roper, “A Note on Volcanism and the Book of Mormon,” Insights: The Newsletter of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship 29, no. 4 (2009): 4; Benjamin R. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12, no. 1 (2003): 78–87; Brant A. Gardner, Second Witness: Analytical and Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City, UT: Greg Kofford Books, 2007), 5:300–312; John L. Lund, Joseph Smith and the Geography of Book of Mormon (The Communication Company, 2012), 173–178; John L. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex: An Ancient American Book (Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Deseret Book and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, 2013), 641–649; Jerry D. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon (Vineyard, UT: Grover Publications, 2014); Brant A. Gardner, Traditions of the Fathers: The Book of Mormon as History (Salt Lake City, UT: Greg Kofford Books, 2015), 343–351; Neal Rappleye, “‘The Great and Terrible Judgements of the Lord’: Destruction and Disaster in 3 Nephi and the Geology of Mesoamerica,” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 15 (2015): 143–157.
4. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year,” 173: “One of the common themes that can be found in almost all accounts of explosive volcanic eruptions is the darkness created by the fall of ash. This darkness may last for a few hours or a few days, and the historical descriptions mimic the terminology used in the Book of Mormon.” Benson, “Geological Upheaval,” 64: “Volcanic ash, smoke, and gases, along with dust and debris rising into the air from a large earthquake, could have produced the ‘vapor of darkness’ spoken of in 3 Nephi 8:20 and 10:13.” Ball, “An Hypothesis concerning the Three Days of Darkness,” 113: the “period of darkness was caused by an immense local cloud of volcanic ash.”
5. An earthquake in 1811 felt throughout the eastern US reportedly caused an “awful darkness of the atmosphere,” however it only lasted briefly. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 156 explained that earthquakes are not known to cause lengthy periods of darkness. “The mists or vapors of darkness are described as being widespread. The only realistic explanation for this phenomenon is a volcanic ash/tephra cloud disseminated as a result of a volcanic eruption. Occasionally during the initial moments of earthquakes, dust can be generated from shaken buildings or by brief release of sometimes pungent soil gases, but these have never been observed in modern earthquakes to last more than a few hours, and the same is indicated for pre-modern earthquakes by historic anecdote. Earthquake dust has not been observed to inhibit ignition. Volcanic ash distribution has been historically documented to inhibit combustion and last for days at a time.” Also see Rappleye, “The Great and Terrible Judgements,” 153.
6. Kowallis, “In the Thirty and Fourth Year,” 136–190; Lund, Joseph Smith and the Geography of Book of Mormon, 173–178; Gardner, Second Witness, 5:300–312.
7. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 119.
8. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 137.
9. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 139–141.
10. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 139–148.
11. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 148.
12. Sorenson, Ancient American Setting, 46; V. Garth Norman, Book of Mormon–Mesoamerica Geography: History Study Map (American Fork, UT: ARCON, 2008), 3; Joseph L. Allen and Blake J. Allen, Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon, revised edition (American Fork, UT: Covenant Communications, 2011), 428–465; Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 508–509; 712–714.
13. Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 39; “When Day Turned to Night,” 66–67.
14. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 641–649; Grover, Geology of the Book of Mormon, 32–49. Grover’s work documents as many as six volcanos active around the first century AD, ranging from central Mexico to southern Guatemala.
15. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 84.
16. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87.
17. The exact year of Christ’s death is also uncertain and highly debated, though most scholars would place it around AD 30. See Thomas A. Wayment, “Appendix—The Birth and Death Dates of Jesus Christ,” in The Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ: From Bethlehem Through the Sermon on the Mount, ed. Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and Thomas A. Wayment (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2005), 383–394; Jeffrey R. Chadwick, “Dating the Death of Jesus Christ,” BYU Studies Quarterly 54, no. 4 (2015): 135–191.
18. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87: “However, so far it is not possible to determine the exact geographic location of those eruptions.”
19. Jordan, “Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon,” 87, similarly argued, “the discovery of a volcanic eruption at Tacaná volcano [in Mesoamerica, ca. AD 25–72] during the period in question, combined with the ice-core record, seems to strengthen the argument for an eruption as part of the cause of destruction described in 3 Nephi.”
20. Book of Mormon Central, “How was there a Night without Darkness? (3 Nephi 1:15),” KnoWhy 188 (September 15, 2016).
21. Kimberly M. Berkey, “Temporality and Fulfillment in 3 Nephi 1,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 24 (2015): 74.
22. Benson, “Geological Upheaval,” 63.
23. Ezra Taft Benson, A Witness and a Warning: A Modern-day Prophet Testifies of the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1988), 37, cf. p. 20.

There is only one official hill Cumorah visitor center New York were Joseph retrieved the plates. To believe that the Book of Mormon lands are in South America you have to believe there is a hill Cumorah in New York and one in South or Central America. Native American culture and language match up with Hebrew and old world ties. In South America you do not see that. When Joseph sent missionaries to the lamanites by revelation he sent them to North American tribes. D&C 54:8 states the borders of the lamanites is Missouri. Missouri is not found in central or South America.

Libertybelle2012 · Post by **Libertybelle2012** » October 1st, 2016, 9:41 pm

I also believe the Book of a Mormon lands are in the US. The Heartland is by far the most compelling of all evidences of the BOM lands and confirmed what i always felt

larsenb · Post by **larsenb** » October 2nd, 2016, 12:41 am

ripliancum wrote: . . . . There is only one official hill Cumorah visitor center New York were Joseph retrieved the plates. To believe that the Book of Mormon lands are in South America you have to believe there is a hill Cumorah in New York and one in South or Central America. Native American culture and language match up with Hebrew and old world ties. In South America you do not see that. When Joseph sent missionaries to the lamanites by revelation he sent them to North American tribes. D&C 54:8 states the borders of the lamanites is Missouri. Missouri is not found in central or South America.

The competing site for the location of Hill Cumorah and Ramah is in the Tuxtla Mountains, which is SE of Vera Cruz, Mexico. There is a lot of good argument in favor of this site.

Here is what Dr. Ross Christensen has to say about this controversy, found at: http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/m ... CO.htm?n=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Many, many other articles have covered the same ground since Christensen wrote his piece, and they come to the same conclusion.

The general archaeology of the eastern United States and the specific archaeology of western New York are discussed in evaluating the New York theory. According to William A. Ritchie, the leading expert in the archaeology of that state, the Palmyra area had no communities with over 500 inhabitants prior to AD 1100, while the cultural level before that date was one of simple hunting and fishing, without agriculture. Besides failing most archaeological criteria, the New York location fails many of the geographical ones as well.

The Hill Vigia in southern Mexico is next subjected to the same set of criteria and is found to meet them all. The author feels that this does not prove the correct hill has been identified but insists that any other candidate must also pass the same screening process. The Hill Vigia is surrounded by rivers and fountains which flow out of the hills from underground sources. Its vicinity is the ecological climax area of Mesoamerica, where two to three crops per year are grown. He suggests that the abundance of water aided food production in ancient times, which was related to the military advantage of numbers sought by General Mormon (cf. Morm. 6:4).

Referencing D&C 54:8 regarding the "borders of the Lamanites" proves nothing about where other Lamanites are located throughout the Western Hemisphere.

I've mentioned this before, but the passage in 1st Nephi discussing a man among the gentiles discovering the lands of the Nephites/Lamanites, is considered to be Christopher Columbus. It is significant that Columbus' voyages all came directly into the latitudes and even made ground in the area of the Limited Tehuantapec Model for Book of Mormon lands . . . even getting as far south as Panama, where the local tribes attacked Columbus. He never touched the continental US at all.

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » October 2nd, 2016, 9:29 pm

larsenb wrote:
ripliancum wrote: . . . . There is only one official hill Cumorah visitor center New York were Joseph retrieved the plates. To believe that the Book of Mormon lands are in South America you have to believe there is a hill Cumorah in New York and one in South or Central America. Native American culture and language match up with Hebrew and old world ties. In South America you do not see that. When Joseph sent missionaries to the lamanites by revelation he sent them to North American tribes. D&C 54:8 states the borders of the lamanites is Missouri. Missouri is not found in central or South America.
The competing site for the location of Hill Cumorah and Ramah is in the Tuxtla Mountains, which is SE of Vera Cruz, Mexico. There is a lot of good argument in favor of this site.

Here is what Dr. Ross Christensen has to say about this controversy, found at: http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/m ... CO.htm?n=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Many, many other articles have covered the same ground since Christensen wrote his piece, and they come to the same conclusion.

The general archaeology of the eastern United States and the specific archaeology of western New York are discussed in evaluating the New York theory. According to William A. Ritchie, the leading expert in the archaeology of that state, the Palmyra area had no communities with over 500 inhabitants prior to AD 1100, while the cultural level before that date was one of simple hunting and fishing, without agriculture. Besides failing most archaeological criteria, the New York location fails many of the geographical ones as well.

The Hill Vigia in southern Mexico is next subjected to the same set of criteria and is found to meet them all. The author feels that this does not prove the correct hill has been identified but insists that any other candidate must also pass the same screening process. The Hill Vigia is surrounded by rivers and fountains which flow out of the hills from underground sources. Its vicinity is the ecological climax area of Mesoamerica, where two to three crops per year are grown. He suggests that the abundance of water aided food production in ancient times, which was related to the military

of numbers sought by General Mormon (cf. Morm. 6:4).
Referencing D&C 54:8 regarding the "borders of the Lamanites" proves nothing about where other Lamanites are located throughout the Western Hemisphere.

I've mentioned this before, but the passage in 1st Nephi discussing a man among the gentiles discovering the lands of the Nephites/Lamanites, is considered to be Christopher Columbus. It is significant that Columbus' voyages all came directly into the latitudes and even made ground in the area of the Limited Tehuantapec Model for Book of Mormon lands . . . even getting as far south as Panama, where the local tribes attacked Columbus. He never touched the continental US at all.

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon that states that there are two hill Cumorahs. Also Native American culture has Hebrew language and cultural ties. south and Central America has nothing.

sandman45 · Post by **sandman45** » October 4th, 2016, 12:23 pm

Joseph also said

“He told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the indians were the literal descendants of Abraham…” (Joseph Smith History 1:34 )

“From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same…. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and their animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (History of Joseph Smith by his mother, 1954 edition, pp. 82-83)

“Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment.”

“ And now, behold, I say unto you that you (Oliver Cowdery) shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them: …..” (D&C 28:8)

“1) And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt…

2) And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” (D&C 32:1-2 October 1830)

Where did they go?

“Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)

(NOTE; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t send missionaries to Central America until 1947. Almost 100 years after this commandment was issued by revelation.)

“I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-Ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes (Sac, Fox), with their families.”

“I conducted them to the meeting grounds in the grove, and instructed them in many things which the Lord had revealed unto me concerning their fathers, and the promises that were made concerning them in the Book of Mormon.” (Joseph Smith History of the Church: 4: 401-2 )

“I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgement [abridgment] of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent….

The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions… “((Part of Wentworth letter)History of the Church 1: 301)

“The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.

NOTE: At the time, anything west of the Alegehny and appalacian mountains was part of the West.

NOTE: For those who claim that Joseph Smith was merely stating his opinion, his follow up letter clearly refutes that. After his first letter was not published in its entirety Joseph Smith sent a second follow up letter to N. E. Seaton, Rochester. In it he states:

“Dear sir,

I was somewhat disappointed on the receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God. ” (History of the Church 1: 326)

“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)

Also the Zelph the Lamanite story happens in North America

THE ZELPH MOUND DISCOVERY DURING ZION’S CAMP MARCH AFTER CROSSING THE ILLINOIS RIVER. JUNE 3, 1834

“During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc., and this morning I went up on a high mound, near the river, accompanied by the brethren. From this mound we could overlook the tops of the trees and view the prairie on each side of the river as far as our vision could extend, and the scenery was truly delightful.

On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (History of the Church Vol. 2: 79-80, June 3, 1834, 1948 edition)

NOTE: The “Zelph” mound was excavated recently and carbon dated to 385 AD.

Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. (D&C 125:3)

“1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

larsenb · Post by **larsenb** » October 4th, 2016, 1:03 pm

ripliancum wrote:
larsenb wrote: . . . . Referencing D&C 54:8 regarding the "borders of the Lamanites" proves nothing about where other Lamanites are located throughout the Western Hemisphere.

I've mentioned this before, but the passage in 1st Nephi discussing a man among the gentiles discovering the lands of the Nephites/Lamanites, is considered to be Christopher Columbus. It is significant that Columbus' voyages all came directly into the latitudes and even made ground in the area of the Limited Tehuantapec Model for Book of Mormon lands . . . even getting as far south as Panama, where the local tribes attacked Columbus. He never touched the continental US at all.
There is nothing in the Book of Mormon that states that there are two hill Cumorahs. Also Native American culture has Hebrew language and cultural ties. south and Central America has nothing.

My understanding about the term: 'Native American', is that it refers to indigenous people who were native to the Americas. Is this not true??

Also, your claim that the Hebrew language is not found among 'native Americans' in Central America is in direct contradiction to the findings of Dr. Brian Stubbs, who has studied the issue extensively.

To claim that the languages of native Americans located primarily in the continental US, and not speaking Uto-Aztecan language, have significant Hebrew ties' you're going to have to do studies similar to that of Stubbs on these languages. A few cognates doesn't really prove much.

I don't recall that the Book of Mormon says anything about burying Mormon's abridgement that also contained Moroni's commentary, at 'Cumorah', per se, either. So your point about the BofM not mentioning two Cumorahs doesn't prove anything.

Three points to consider; and I know this won't have any effect on your views, but I'll put them out anyway. They are points made by other people numerous times in articles and books:

1. Mormon may have abridged the mountain of records in his possession (and buried near the Hill Ramah/Cumorah) for the express purpose of condensing them down to a size that could easily be transported.
2. How is it that Moroni could hang around Cumorah, the site of the last great battle, long enough (he was alone for many years) to add his commentary, build a stone box and rebury the records in a place swarming with blood-thirsty Lamanites, who had been hell bent on tracking down and killing any remaining Nephites they could lay their hands on. If I had been him, I would get out of Dodge as quickly and as far away as I could . . . of course, taking Mormon's abridgement with me.
3. Instead of building a separate stone box, why didn't Moroni just leave the abridgement or put it back in Mormon's original repository on/near the Hill Ramah/Cumorah? That would have been much easier.

larsenb · Post by **larsenb** » October 4th, 2016, 1:18 pm

sandman45 wrote: . . .

“The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them. . . .

The tribes Stubbs was looking at are certainly a large part of the 'western tribes'. They include the Comanches'

Also, much of what you mention does not logically exclude Lamanite/Nephite/Abrahamic-descended tribes from populating the entire western hemisphere. There are a number of statements by the brethren indicating as much, especially from President Kimball.

I'm curious, sandman45, what do you think about my Columbus argument?

DesertWonderer · Post by **DesertWonderer** » October 4th, 2016, 4:41 pm

No writing systems, no concrete, no city-state political systems, no highways, no vulcanism around the time of Christ's death, no use of chiasms in their communications...in the US before Europeans came here. Those are all requirements of the Nephite / Lamanite civilizations. The only place those are found in the Americas is Meso-America. For the geographically challenged, Meso American is in North America NOT Central or South America as some has said.

Much native american civilization (w/in the US) came from migrating peoples from the South--This is exactly what the BoM says. Many people left Nephite lands by boat and migrated North. This accounts for much of what is used as proof that the BoM took place in the US.

The Zelph story is a cornerstone of the continental US'ers paradigm. Guess what? It's wrong. JS did not write the original version of that story which is what is quoted above. JS later edited what was written and took out the references to Nephites / Lmanaites. So I ask you why does Wyane May et al continue to use the unedited version? The same reason he says the Indians in NY used a system of writing with similarities to Egyptian (For the record a French missionary taught them this writing system so they could learn to communicate as they had no writing system of their own). Because it sells books I guess.

DesertWonderer · Post by **DesertWonderer** » October 4th, 2016, 4:41 pm

larsenb wrote:
sandman45 wrote: . . .

“The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them. . . .
The tribes Stubbs was looking at are certainly a large part of the 'western tribes'. They include the Comanches'

Also, much of what you mention does not logically exclude Lamanite/Nephite/Abrahamic-descended tribes from populating the entire western hemisphere. There are a number of statements by the brethren indicating as much, especially from President Kimball.

I'm curious, sandman45, what do you think about my Columbus argument?

Excellent point.

larsenb · Post by **larsenb** » October 4th, 2016, 6:12 pm

DesertWonderer wrote:No writing systems, no concrete, no city-state political systems, no highways, no vulcanism around the time of Christ's death, no use of chiasms in their communications...in the US before Europeans came here. Those are all requirements of the Nephite / Lamanite civilizations. The only place those are found in the Americas is Meso-America. For the geographically challenged, Meso American is in North America NOT Central or South America as some has said.

Much native american civilization (w/in the US) came from migrating peoples from the South--This is exactly what the BoM says. Many people left Nephite lands by boat and migrated North. This accounts for much of what is used as proof that the BoM took place in the US.

The Zelph story is a cornerstone of the continental US'ers paradigm. Guess what? It's wrong. JS did not write the original version of that story which is what is quoted above. JS later edited what was written and took out the references to Nephites / Lmanaites. So I ask you why does Wyane May et al continue to use the unedited version? The same reason he says the Indians in NY used a system of writing with similarities to Egyptian (For the record a French missionary taught them this writing system so they could learn to communicate as they had no writing system of their own). Because it sells books I guess.

Excellent. Well put. Thanks.

JohnnyL · Post by **JohnnyL** » October 4th, 2016, 9:09 pm

sandman45 wrote:Joseph also said
“He told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the indians were the literal descendants of Abraham…” (Joseph Smith History 1:34 )

“From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same…. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and their animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (History of Joseph Smith by his mother, 1954 edition, pp. 82-83)

“Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment.”

“ And now, behold, I say unto you that you (Oliver Cowdery) shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them: …..” (D&C 28:8)

“1) And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt…

2) And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” (D&C 32:1-2 October 1830)
Where did they go?

“Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)

(NOTE; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t send missionaries to Central America until 1947. Almost 100 years after this commandment was issued by revelation.)

“I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-Ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes (Sac, Fox), with their families.”

“I conducted them to the meeting grounds in the grove, and instructed them in many things which the Lord had revealed unto me concerning their fathers, and the promises that were made concerning them in the Book of Mormon.” (Joseph Smith History of the Church: 4: 401-2 )

“I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgement [abridgment] of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent….

The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions… “((Part of Wentworth letter)History of the Church 1: 301)

“The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.

NOTE: At the time, anything west of the Alegehny and appalacian mountains was part of the West.

NOTE: For those who claim that Joseph Smith was merely stating his opinion, his follow up letter clearly refutes that. After his first letter was not published in its entirety Joseph Smith sent a second follow up letter to N. E. Seaton, Rochester. In it he states:

“Dear sir,

I was somewhat disappointed on the receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God. ” (History of the Church 1: 326)

“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)
Also the Zelph the Lamanite story happens in North America

THE ZELPH MOUND DISCOVERY DURING ZION’S CAMP MARCH AFTER CROSSING THE ILLINOIS RIVER. JUNE 3, 1834

“During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc., and this morning I went up on a high mound, near the river, accompanied by the brethren. From this mound we could overlook the tops of the trees and view the prairie on each side of the river as far as our vision could extend, and the scenery was truly delightful.

On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (History of the Church Vol. 2: 79-80, June 3, 1834, 1948 edition)

NOTE: The “Zelph” mound was excavated recently and carbon dated to 385 AD.

Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. (D&C 125:3)

“1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

Hmm... I've missed those quotes in all the mesoamerican/ Central American arguments...

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » October 4th, 2016, 10:53 pm

DesertWonderer wrote:No writing systems, no concrete, no city-state political systems, no highways, no vulcanism around the time of Christ's death, no use of chiasms in their communications...in the US before Europeans came here. Those are all requirements of the Nephite / Lamanite civilizations. The only place those are found in the Americas is Meso-America. For the geographically challenged, Meso American is in North America NOT Central or South America as some has said.

Much native american civilization (w/in the US) came from migrating peoples from the South--This is exactly what the BoM says. Many people left Nephite lands by boat and migrated North. This accounts for much of what is used as proof that the BoM took place in the US.

The Zelph story is a cornerstone of the continental US'ers paradigm. Guess what? It's wrong. JS did not write the original version of that story which is what is quoted above. JS later edited what was written and took out the references to Nephites / Lmanaites. So I ask you why does Wyane May et al continue to use the unedited version? The same reason he says the Indians in NY used a system of writing with similarities to Egyptian (For the record a French missionary taught them this writing system so they could learn to communicate as they had no writing system of their own). Because it sells books I guess.

When the French arrived they saw the Indians writing on birch bark. It's mathematically impossible for four character to be the same in appearance and meaning as their Egyptian counterparts.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native Americans used a type of cement called daub and wattle. The put this cement on their fortifications.

The trade of the Hopewell was much larger geographic wise than anything found in central and South America. Their trade extended thousands of miles not so for south and Central America. Horses went extinct in North America. Meso America answer for the horse is the worlds largest rodent called a tapir.

The Hopewell civilization was advanced in trade metal smithing engineering etc. in my opinion there is a lot they do not know about Hopewell population and politics.

Seven people witnessed the Zelph revelation including Heber c kimball.

Although Smith did not mention the Zelph event specifically in his journal, it is clear that during this period he considered the area in which the group was traveling to have been part of the land described in the Book of Mormon. In a letter that Smith wrote to his wife Emma the following day (June 4, 1834), he stated:

"The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed."

Some who support the meso American model are good at criticizing the Hopewell as being the nephites only because they can't call one civilization as the Nephites if you can we can do a one on one comparison. I would love to do a one on one comparison.

Mormon buried the plates in the hill Cumorah were the last battles took place.

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

The fact that there is only one hill Cumorah is very problematic for the meso American model.

ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » October 4th, 2016, 11:44 pm

Correction the tapir is not a rodent.

larsenb · Post by **larsenb** » October 5th, 2016, 10:02 am

ripliancum wrote: . . . 6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

The fact that there is only one hill Cumorah is very problematic for the meso American model.

Nope, not problematic for the Mesoamerican model.

Mormon is telling you in Mormon 6:6 that he hid up in the Hill Cumorah "all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni." The implication of this passage according to my reading of it, is that "these few plates" contained "this record"; i.e., the Book of Mormon he had abridged for our use, minus the Book of Ether and the Book of Moroni, which Moroni later added to the few plates his father gave him. The plates would be relatively few in number compared to all the voluminous records which had been entrusted to him by the Lord.

Moroni does not say where he then deposited "these few plates".

Further, in Joseph Smith's History, he does not name the hill where he recovered this abridged record as the Hill Cumorah. I recall reading a paper that documents when and where the NY Hill Cumorah first took on that name, and it didn't come from Joseph Smith, but was probably picked up by people reading the very passage quoted above.

DesertWonderer · Post by **DesertWonderer** » October 5th, 2016, 11:40 am

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Wher ... Cumorah%3F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Question: Where is the Hill Cumorah?

Joseph Smith never used the name "Cumorah" in his own writings when referring to the gold plates' resting place
It is not clear exactly when the New York hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates became associated with the name "Cumorah." Joseph Smith never used the name in his own writings when referring to the plates' resting place. The only use of it from his pen seems to be DC 128:20, which uses the phrase "Glad tidings from Cumorah!" In 1830, Oliver Cowdery referred to the records' location as "Cumorah," while preaching to the Delaware Indians, and by 1835 the term seems to have been in common use among Church members.[1]
David Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church
One reference comes from a later interview with David Whitmer, who recounted how Oliver Cowdery had written to him, asking for help to transport Joseph and Oliver from Harmony to the Peter Whitmer home in Fayette:
When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned, wooden, spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.[2]
Interestingly, Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church. Given that Whitmer's reminiscence is late, and unsubstantiated by other contemporaneous accounts, some historians question its accuracy, especially in a detail such as the name of the Hill, which later became common Church usage.[3]
The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates
Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same.
In 1937–1939 Washburn and Washburn argued that the Nephite/Jaredite final battles at the Hill Cumorah were near the narrow neck of land, and thus unlikely to be in New York.[4] Thomas Ferguson was of the same view in 1947,[5]and Sidney Sperry came down on the side of a Middle America location in a 1964 BYU religion class,[6] though he had previously endorsed a New York location.[7]
Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same
Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same.[8] Elder Dallin H. Oaks recalled his own experience at BYU:
Here [at BYU] I was introduced to the idea that the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America in all ages of the earth. Up to that time, I had assumed that it was. If that were the claim of the Book of Mormon, any piece of historical, archaeological, or linguistic evidence to the contrary would weigh in against the Book of Mormon, and those who rely exclusively on scholarship would have a promising position to argue.
In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise.[9]
There are 13 geographical conditions required for the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah
In 1981, Palmer identified 13 geographical conditions required for the Book of Mormon Hill Ramah/Cumorah:
near eastern seacoast
near narrow neck of land
on a coastal plain and near other mountains and valleys
one day's journey south of a large body of water
an area of many rivers and waters
presence of fountains
water gives military advantage
an escape route southward
hill large enough to view hundreds of thousands of bodies
hill must be a significant landmark
hill must be free standing so people can camp around it
in temperate climate with no cold or snow
in a volcanic zone susceptible to earthquakes[10]
Clearly, the placement of Cumorah will greatly affect the map which results. Issues of distance, as discussed above, play a role here as well.
Some authors who have other views on the internal geography have directly disputed the validity of some of David Palmer's criteria for the ancient Cumorah.[11] The question of distance plays an important role in the skeptical views towards these criteria. If it is demonstrated that there is a greater distance between the narrow neck of land and Cumorah, for example, and there is a "northern hinterland" to the Nephite domain, then the questions of climate and so forth in these criteria are not going to apply necessarily to the hill Cumorah. Furthermore, the issues of height have been called into question as well.
Notes
Jump up ↑ Rex C. Reeve, Jr., and Richard O. Cowan, "The Hill Called Cumorah," in Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman, Jr., and Susan Easton Black, eds., Regional Studies in Latter-day Saint History: New York and Pennsylvania (Provo: BYU Department of Church History and Doctrine, 1992), 73–74.
Jump up ↑ Interview with David Whitmer [conducted 7–8 September 1878 in Richmond, Missouri], "Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith," Millennial Star 40 (9 December 1878), 771–774.
Jump up ↑ Martin H. Raish, "Encounters with Cumorah: A Selective, Personal Bibliography," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004): 38–49. off-site wiki
Jump up ↑ Jesse A. Washburn and Jesse N. Washburn, From Babel to Cumorah (Provo, UT: New Era Publishing, 1937).
Jump up ↑ Thomas S. Ferguson, Cumorah—Where? (Independence, MO: Press of Zion's Print. & Publishing Company, 1947).
Jump up ↑ Sidney B. Sperry, Handout, Religion 622 (31 March 1964); published in Sidney B. Sperry, "Were There Two Cumorahs?," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 4/1 (1995): 260–268. off-site wiki
Jump up ↑ Sidney B. Sperry, The Book of Mormon Testifies (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1952), 335–336. Sperry would later write: "In this volume I have reversed my views, held many years ago, that the Hill Cumorah, around which the last great battles of the Nephites and Jaredites took place, was in the State of New York. The book of Mormon data are very clear and show quite conclusively that the Hill (Ramah to the Jaredites) was in the land of Desolation, somewhere in Middle America. I have summed up my arguments and conclusions in connection with the discussion of Mormon, Chapter 6. My conclusions have been tested in a number of classes of graduate students who were challenged to demonstrate their falsity. Up to the present time, no one has done so. The Hill Cumorah in New York, from which the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the Nephite plates, may have been so named by Moroni in commemoration of the Cumorah in the land of Desolation, around which his father and fellow Nephites lost their lives in their last struggles with the Lamanites." - Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968), 6–7.
Jump up ↑ See, for example, John E. Clark, "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004): 144–151. off-site wiki; John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]),14–16.
Jump up ↑ Dallin H. Oaks, "Historicity of the Book of Mormon," Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Annual Dinner Provo, Utah, 29 October 1993; cited in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1994), 2-3. Reproduced in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," in Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures, ed. Paul Y. Hoskisson (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2001), 237–48.
Jump up ↑ David A. Palmer, In Search of Cumorah: New Evidences for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico (Bountiful: Horizon, 1981), 28–72.
Jump up ↑ See Andrew H. Hedges, Cumorah and the Limited Mesoamerican Theory off-site and see also Edwin Goble, Resurrecting Cumorah, Second Revised Edition, May 2011.
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ripliancum · Post by **ripliancum** » October 5th, 2016, 11:49 am

DesertWonderer wrote:http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Wher ... Cumorah%3F

Question: Where is the Hill Cumorah?

Joseph Smith never used the name "Cumorah" in his own writings when referring to the gold plates' resting place
It is not clear exactly when the New York hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates became associated with the name "Cumorah." Joseph Smith never used the name in his own writings when referring to the plates' resting place. The only use of it from his pen seems to be DC 128:20, which uses the phrase "Glad tidings from Cumorah!" In 1830, Oliver Cowdery referred to the records' location as "Cumorah," while preaching to the Delaware Indians, and by 1835 the term seems to have been in common use among Church members.[1]
David Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church
One reference comes from a later interview with David Whitmer, who recounted how Oliver Cowdery had written to him, asking for help to transport Joseph and Oliver from Harmony to the Peter Whitmer home in Fayette:
When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned, wooden, spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.[2]
Interestingly, Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church. Given that Whitmer's reminiscence is late, and unsubstantiated by other contemporaneous accounts, some historians question its accuracy, especially in a detail such as the name of the Hill, which later became common Church usage.[3]
The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates
Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same.
In 1937–1939 Washburn and Washburn argued that the Nephite/Jaredite final battles at the Hill Cumorah were near the narrow neck of land, and thus unlikely to be in New York.[4] Thomas Ferguson was of the same view in 1947,[5]and Sidney Sperry came down on the side of a Middle America location in a 1964 BYU religion class,[6] though he had previously endorsed a New York location.[7]
Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same
Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same.[8] Elder Dallin H. Oaks recalled his own experience at BYU:
Here [at BYU] I was introduced to the idea that the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America in all ages of the earth. Up to that time, I had assumed that it was. If that were the claim of the Book of Mormon, any piece of historical, archaeological, or linguistic evidence to the contrary would weigh in against the Book of Mormon, and those who rely exclusively on scholarship would have a promising position to argue.
In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise.[9]
There are 13 geographical conditions required for the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah
In 1981, Palmer identified 13 geographical conditions required for the Book of Mormon Hill Ramah/Cumorah:
near eastern seacoast
near narrow neck of land
on a coastal plain and near other mountains and valleys
one day's journey south of a large body of water
an area of many rivers and waters
presence of fountains
water gives military advantage
an escape route southward
hill large enough to view hundreds of thousands of bodies
hill must be a significant landmark
hill must be free standing so people can camp around it
in temperate climate with no cold or snow
in a volcanic zone susceptible to earthquakes[10]
Clearly, the placement of Cumorah will greatly affect the map which results. Issues of distance, as discussed above, play a role here as well.
Some authors who have other views on the internal geography have directly disputed the validity of some of David Palmer's criteria for the ancient Cumorah.[11] The question of distance plays an important role in the skeptical views towards these criteria. If it is demonstrated that there is a greater distance between the narrow neck of land and Cumorah, for example, and there is a "northern hinterland" to the Nephite domain, then the questions of climate and so forth in these criteria are not going to apply necessarily to the hill Cumorah. Furthermore, the issues of height have been called into question as well.
Notes
Jump up ↑ Rex C. Reeve, Jr., and Richard O. Cowan, "The Hill Called Cumorah," in Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman, Jr., and Susan Easton Black, eds., Regional Studies in Latter-day Saint History: New York and Pennsylvania (Provo: BYU Department of Church History and Doctrine, 1992), 73–74.
Jump up ↑ Interview with David Whitmer [conducted 7–8 September 1878 in Richmond, Missouri], "Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith," Millennial Star 40 (9 December 1878), 771–774.
Jump up ↑ Martin H. Raish, "Encounters with Cumorah: A Selective, Personal Bibliography," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004): 38–49. off-site wiki
Jump up ↑ Jesse A. Washburn and Jesse N. Washburn, From Babel to Cumorah (Provo, UT: New Era Publishing, 1937).
Jump up ↑ Thomas S. Ferguson, Cumorah—Where? (Independence, MO: Press of Zion's Print. & Publishing Company, 1947).
Jump up ↑ Sidney B. Sperry, Handout, Religion 622 (31 March 1964); published in Sidney B. Sperry, "Were There Two Cumorahs?," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 4/1 (1995): 260–268. off-site wiki
Jump up ↑ Sidney B. Sperry, The Book of Mormon Testifies (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1952), 335–336. Sperry would later write: "In this volume I have reversed my views, held many years ago, that the Hill Cumorah, around which the last great battles of the Nephites and Jaredites took place, was in the State of New York. The book of Mormon data are very clear and show quite conclusively that the Hill (Ramah to the Jaredites) was in the land of Desolation, somewhere in Middle America. I have summed up my arguments and conclusions in connection with the discussion of Mormon, Chapter 6. My conclusions have been tested in a number of classes of graduate students who were challenged to demonstrate their falsity. Up to the present time, no one has done so. The Hill Cumorah in New York, from which the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the Nephite plates, may have been so named by Moroni in commemoration of the Cumorah in the land of Desolation, around which his father and fellow Nephites lost their lives in their last struggles with the Lamanites." - Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968), 6–7.
Jump up ↑ See, for example, John E. Clark, "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004): 144–151. off-site wiki; John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]),14–16.
Jump up ↑ Dallin H. Oaks, "Historicity of the Book of Mormon," Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Annual Dinner Provo, Utah, 29 October 1993; cited in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1994), 2-3. Reproduced in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," in Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures, ed. Paul Y. Hoskisson (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2001), 237–48.
Jump up ↑ David A. Palmer, In Search of Cumorah: New Evidences for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico (Bountiful: Horizon, 1981), 28–72.
Jump up ↑ See Andrew H. Hedges, Cumorah and the Limited Mesoamerican Theory off-site and see also Edwin Goble, Resurrecting Cumorah, Second Revised Edition, May 2011.
Categories: Book of Mormon/Hill CumorahThe Changing World of Mormonism
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If you want to go to hill Cumorah just go to the churche's official hill Cumorah visitor center where Joseph Smith retrieved the golden plates and the last battles took place.

Saying there are two hill Cumorahs is like calling a horse a tapir and calling an iron sword a wood club with obsidian stuck to it.

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