Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

[ripliancum]

D&C 128 is interesting it places Cumorah right where someone would expect in New York

20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets--the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

[DesertWonderer]

Saying there are two hill Cumorahs (I see no issue with this.) is like calling a horse a tapir (I don't understand this reference?) and calling an iron sword a wood club with obsidian stuck to it That's exactly how I'd describe a native American sword .

This image might help you see they were swords in every sense of the word:

http://www.mormonhaven.com/hands.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(scroll to the bottom)

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

[larsenb]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

[larsenb]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_Wher ... Cumorah%3F

Question: Where is the Hill Cumorah?

Joseph Smith never used the name "Cumorah" in his own writings when referring to the gold plates' resting place
It is not clear exactly when the New York hill from which Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates became associated with the name "Cumorah." Joseph Smith never used the name in his own writings when referring to the plates' resting place. The only use of it from his pen seems to be DC 128:20, which uses the phrase "Glad tidings from Cumorah!" In 1830, Oliver Cowdery referred to the records' location as "Cumorah," while preaching to the Delaware Indians, and by 1835 the term seems to have been in common use among Church members.[1]
David Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church
One reference comes from a later interview with David Whitmer, who recounted how Oliver Cowdery had written to him, asking for help to transport Joseph and Oliver from Harmony to the Peter Whitmer home in Fayette:
When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned, wooden, spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.[2]
Interestingly, Whitmer is not told that the hill from which Joseph received the record was called Cumorah, but this usage seems to have nevertheless become common within the Church. Given that Whitmer's reminiscence is late, and unsubstantiated by other contemporaneous accounts, some historians question its accuracy, especially in a detail such as the name of the Hill, which later became common Church usage.[3]
The Book of Mormon text indicates that the Hill Cumorah in which the Nephite records were hidden is not the same location as the one where Moroni hid his plates
Despite this early "identification" of the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon with the hill in New York, readers who studied the text closely would later conclude that they could not be the same.
In 1937–1939 Washburn and Washburn argued that the Nephite/Jaredite final battles at the Hill Cumorah were near the narrow neck of land, and thus unlikely to be in New York.[4] Thomas Ferguson was of the same view in 1947,[5]and Sidney Sperry came down on the side of a Middle America location in a 1964 BYU religion class,[6] though he had previously endorsed a New York location.[7]
Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same
Since the 1950s, opinion among Book of Mormon scholars has increasingly trended toward the realization that the Nephite Cumorah and the Hill in New York cannot be the same.[8] Elder Dallin H. Oaks recalled his own experience at BYU:
Here [at BYU] I was introduced to the idea that the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America in all ages of the earth. Up to that time, I had assumed that it was. If that were the claim of the Book of Mormon, any piece of historical, archaeological, or linguistic evidence to the contrary would weigh in against the Book of Mormon, and those who rely exclusively on scholarship would have a promising position to argue.
In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise.[9]
There are 13 geographical conditions required for the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah
In 1981, Palmer identified 13 geographical conditions required for the Book of Mormon Hill Ramah/Cumorah:
near eastern seacoast
near narrow neck of land
on a coastal plain and near other mountains and valleys
one day's journey south of a large body of water
an area of many rivers and waters
presence of fountains
water gives military advantage
an escape route southward
hill large enough to view hundreds of thousands of bodies
hill must be a significant landmark
hill must be free standing so people can camp around it
in temperate climate with no cold or snow
in a volcanic zone susceptible to earthquakes[10]
Clearly, the placement of Cumorah will greatly affect the map which results. Issues of distance, as discussed above, play a role here as well.
Some authors who have other views on the internal geography have directly disputed the validity of some of David Palmer's criteria for the ancient Cumorah.[11] The question of distance plays an important role in the skeptical views towards these criteria. If it is demonstrated that there is a greater distance between the narrow neck of land and Cumorah, for example, and there is a "northern hinterland" to the Nephite domain, then the questions of climate and so forth in these criteria are not going to apply necessarily to the hill Cumorah. Furthermore, the issues of height have been called into question as well.
Notes
Jump up ↑ Rex C. Reeve, Jr., and Richard O. Cowan, "The Hill Called Cumorah," in Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman, Jr., and Susan Easton Black, eds., Regional Studies in Latter-day Saint History: New York and Pennsylvania (Provo: BYU Department of Church History and Doctrine, 1992), 73–74.
Jump up ↑ Interview with David Whitmer [conducted 7–8 September 1878 in Richmond, Missouri], "Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith," Millennial Star 40 (9 December 1878), 771–774.
Jump up ↑ Martin H. Raish, "Encounters with Cumorah: A Selective, Personal Bibliography," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004): 38–49. off-site wiki
Jump up ↑ Jesse A. Washburn and Jesse N. Washburn, From Babel to Cumorah (Provo, UT: New Era Publishing, 1937).
Jump up ↑ Thomas S. Ferguson, Cumorah—Where? (Independence, MO: Press of Zion's Print. & Publishing Company, 1947).
Jump up ↑ Sidney B. Sperry, Handout, Religion 622 (31 March 1964); published in Sidney B. Sperry, "Were There Two Cumorahs?," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 4/1 (1995): 260–268. off-site wiki
Jump up ↑ Sidney B. Sperry, The Book of Mormon Testifies (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1952), 335–336. Sperry would later write: "In this volume I have reversed my views, held many years ago, that the Hill Cumorah, around which the last great battles of the Nephites and Jaredites took place, was in the State of New York. The book of Mormon data are very clear and show quite conclusively that the Hill (Ramah to the Jaredites) was in the land of Desolation, somewhere in Middle America. I have summed up my arguments and conclusions in connection with the discussion of Mormon, Chapter 6. My conclusions have been tested in a number of classes of graduate students who were challenged to demonstrate their falsity. Up to the present time, no one has done so. The Hill Cumorah in New York, from which the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the Nephite plates, may have been so named by Moroni in commemoration of the Cumorah in the land of Desolation, around which his father and fellow Nephites lost their lives in their last struggles with the Lamanites." - Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968), 6–7.
Jump up ↑ See, for example, John E. Clark, "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004): 144–151. off-site wiki; John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City, Utah : Deseret Book Co. ; Provo, Utah : Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1996 [1985]),14–16.
Jump up ↑ Dallin H. Oaks, "Historicity of the Book of Mormon," Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Annual Dinner Provo, Utah, 29 October 1993; cited in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1994), 2-3. Reproduced in Dallin H. Oaks, "The Historicity of the Book of Mormon," in Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures, ed. Paul Y. Hoskisson (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2001), 237–48.
Jump up ↑ David A. Palmer, In Search of Cumorah: New Evidences for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico (Bountiful: Horizon, 1981), 28–72.
Jump up ↑ See Andrew H. Hedges, Cumorah and the Limited Mesoamerican Theory off-site and see also Edwin Goble, Resurrecting Cumorah, Second Revised Edition, May 2011.
Categories: Book of Mormon/Hill CumorahThe Changing World of Mormonism
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This is the material I remember reading. Thanks.

One of the problems of holding hard and fast to a particular model is that you are apt to retain a death grip on the model and not be able to effectively evaluate contrary evidence.

Scientists generally proceed using the method of entertaining multiple hypotheses . . . letting the actual evidence help sift through and evaluate the best hypothesis with the best fit to the evidence.

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[larsenb]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png (49.82 KiB) Viewed 666 times

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

You must not be familiar with 3 Nephi chapter 8

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

13 And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

Eight states is a large fault zone but it's worth noting that the city of zarahemla was destroyed by fire not necessarily quaking.

Earthquakes that occur in the New Madrid Seismic Zone potentially threaten parts of eight American states: Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma and Mississippi.[2]

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

[ripliancum]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

also worth noting that, as described in D&C 125:3, Zarahemla is along the Mississippi river, in the earthquake zone of the New Madrid Fault.
The Book of Mormon describes areas of land that sank and lands that lifted and shaking that lasted for long periods of time. It also describes a vapor of darkness to the point that they could not light fires.
Now compare eyewitness accounts of a New Madrid quake that happened in 1811. Quotes come from Joseph Knew website.
“In all the hard shocks mentioned, the earth was horribly torn to pieces – the surface of hundreds of acres, was, from time to time, covered over, in various depths, by the sand which issued from the fissures, which were made in great numbers all over this country, some of which closed up immediately after they had vomited forth their sand and water, which it must be remarked, was the matter generally thrown up. In some places, however, there was a substance somewhat resembling coal, or impure stone coal, thrown up with the sand. It is impossible to say what the depths of the fissures or irregular breaks were; we have reason to believe that some of them are very deep.” – Eliza Bryan
“The surface was sinking and a black liquid was rising up to the belly of my horse, who stood motionless, struck with a panic of terror [...] water spouts, hundreds of them throwing water and sand were to be observed on the whole face of the country, the sand forming miniature volcanoes, whilst the water spouted out of the craters; some of the spouts were quite six feet high... In a few minutes, on both sides of the road as far as the eye could see, was vast expanse of sand and water, water and sand. The road spouted water, and wide openings were to be seen across it ahead of me, then under me, and my [vehicle] sank while the water and sand bubbled, and spat and sucked till my axles were covered.” – J Fletcher
“I went ashore, and found the chasm really frightful, as it was not less than four feet in width and besides the bank had sunk at least two feet. I took the candle, examined to determine its length and concluded that it could not be less than eighty yards long.” – John Bradbury (on the Mississippi River)
“The earth was broken in many places and the openings filled with water. The houses much injured – the only brick chimney in the place entirely demolished...” – Daniel Bedinger
“We were visited by a violent shock of an earthquake, accompanied by a very awful noise resembling loud but distant thunder, but more hoarse and vibrating, which was followed in a few minutes by the complete saturation

of the atmosphere, with sulphurious vapor, causing total darkness.” – Eliza Bryan
“A dense black cloud of vapor overshadowed the land.” – Godfrey LeSieur

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

This is just a hunch but I would say the whirlwinds mentioned in the Book of Mormon is an exceptional match for tornado alley in North America.

[larsenb]

Interesting quotes. Most of them are describing effects due to liquifaction. One thing you would need to indicate is where these people were when they experienced what they described. The New Madrid Fault zone is quite a bit away from Nauvoo or what you think was the original Zarahemla, etc

And wrong. The effects described don't even begin to cover the descriptions and damage described in 3rd Nephi.

The Madrid fault zone is very large see link. I would say the description perfectly well especially when it states that people were carried away in Whirlwinds (tornados)

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=t ... xYEsJ-RjsU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I think your engaging in a 'bit' of arm-waving. Here is a map of the New Madrid fault zone, which comes from the Geologic Survey of Missouri:

250px-New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone_activity_1974-2011.svg.png

If you really want to dig into this whole issue of the damage that occurred before Christ's advent in the new world, your best source for this entire subject can be found in Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi.

Oh, and are you claiming that the New Madrid event caused whirlwinds/tornadoes that could carry away people?? That's a new one on me, regarding earthquakes.

You must not be familiar with 3 Nephi chapter 8

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

13 And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

Eight states is a large fault zone but it's worth noting that the city of zarahemla was destroyed by fire not necessarily quaking.

Earthquakes that occur in the New Madrid Seismic Zone potentially threaten parts of eight American states: Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma and Mississippi.[2]

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

I "must not be familiar with 3 Nephi Chapter 8', eh?

Once again, you could gain a lot of insight into this chapter by getting "Jerry D. Grover Jr.'s book, Geology of the Book of Mormon. He documents very thoroughly what would be necessary geologically to cover the bases presented by the destruction described in 3rd Nephi". He is an engineering geologist, with a lot of experience dealing with damage due to the forces of the earth.

How, pray tell would a massive earthquake centered in southern Missouri cause the City of Moroni to "sink into the depths of the sea", assuming you would place the city on the shores of Lake Michigan or Lake Erie? Were you perhaps subconsciously influenced by the movie, San Andreas?

Or how about the next chapter (Ch. 9) where the "earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain". Tough for an earthquake to do this. Having heard of no examples of such things happening. Now, an earthquake can cause earth/rocks to slide down over population centers, but the law of gravity would preclude the earth being carried up, even to the point of building a "great mountain".

[ripliancum]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

[larsenb]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

If you're talking about Ron Meldrum's DNA claims, Ugo Perego who has specialized in DNA studies of Amerindians among other things, has pointed out how Meldrum is quite a ways off base with his analysis. Perego says he has tried to communicate with Meldrum repeatedly, but gets no reply from him. If you are interested, I could find some articles by Perego on this issue.

Now if Meldrum could show significant correlations with autosomal DNA analyses, he may have something. Mitochondrial studies alone, don't prove much.

And why are you bringing up "Nephites in South America"? This is nothing I've said anything about.

BTW, what do you think of Dr. Brian Stubb's findings of strong elements of Semitic languages, primarily Hebrew, Egyptian and Aramaic present in the Uto-Aztecan linguistic group. He's found 1500 cognate correlations. And Indians speaking these languages are found all down the west coast of Mexico into Guatemala, as well as in Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Texas and Oklahoma, etc. This is the most powerful indirect evidence I've seen for the Book of Mormon outside of the spiritual realm.

[ripliancum]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

If you're talking about Ron Meldrum's DNA claims, Ugo Perego who has specialized in DNA studies of Amerindians among other things, has pointed out how Meldrum is quite a ways off base with his analysis. Perego says he has tried to communicate with Meldrum repeatedly, but gets no reply from him. If you are interested, I could find some articles by Perego on this issue.

Now if Meldrum could show significant correlations with autosomal DNA analyses, he may have something. Mitochondrial studies alone, don't prove much.

And why are you bringing up "Nephites in South America"? This is nothing I've said anything about.

BTW, what do you think of Dr. Brian Stubb's findings of strong elements of Semitic languages, primarily Hebrew, Egyptian and Aramaic present in the Uto-Aztecan linguistic group. He's found 1500 cognate correlations. And Indians speaking these languages are found all down the west coast of Mexico into Guatemala, as well as in Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Texas and Oklahoma, etc. This is the most powerful indirect evidence I've seen for the Book of Mormon outside of the spiritual realm.

There is no doubt that North Americans Indians have Hebrew links and some language links may stretch into Mexico. I think DNA tells the best story all of central and South America have genetics that link to Asia. There is only one genetic marker x2a in North America found in the Middle East. This marker is remarkable in how it ties the Book of Mormon Old Testament and Native American culture.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[the_sign]

I have been providing an internet service for several years regarding the fulfillment of the Book of Daniel (et. al.) from a ca. 50 year old Winnebago.

Winnebago is an Indian word for "dirty water".

Somewhat ironically, the bulk of the service comes down to keeping track of the time of the actual cleansing foretold in Daniel 8:14.

Somehow I think that if Winnebago meant "clean water", I would feel less of a need for the cleansing.

The Book of Mormon stems from the beginning of the Babylonian captivity, and prophet Daniel was already in service to King Nebuchadnezzar.

[larsenb]

Interesting thoughts...

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -34th-year" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Know . . . . .

Thanks. I hadn't heard about the ice core studies regarding volcanic ash.

Just one comment, volcanics and great earthquakes are not mutually exclusive . . . especially in the area of MesoAmerica, where you already have active volcanoes and nearby tectonic plate boundaries. A perfect area for all the events described in 3rd Nephi to have happened, as corroborated by Jerry D. Glover in his book: Geology of the Book of Mormon, 2014.

[larsenb]

When I was a child my grandfather remarked to me that he thought that someday someone would look more closely at the mound builders of the Ohio and Mississippi valleys and try to understand the significance of their culture.
I think Wayne May has done that and made a good case that that is the location of the Book of Mormon geography.
dc

Many others have made an excellent case for the primary Book of Mormon geographical areas being in Central America. Remember, there were many migrations of Nephites and Lamanites to the lands northward, many of whom were never heard from again.

The Hopis have a legend of coming up from the 'red city' in the south and also have a history of burying their weapons. They are known as the people of peace.

[larsenb]

Actually there is evidence of at least one village being buried under water in Lake Michigan. There dating is off because there is a depiction of a mastodon which they believe went extinct 9000 years but compare it to the Book of Mormon that talks elephants and it's right on.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... -michigan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Native American traditions talk about a village being turned into a ravine see examples below.
This Native American tradition is spot on with the cataclysmic events of the Book of Mormon. Also New York State which has mountains and the Great Lakes area does have a fault Line that does cause earthquakes.

I tell you what let me know who you think the Nephites are in South America and we can do a comparison. We will compare DNA, culture, artifacts, timelines, scriptural comparisons, etc and see which civilization has better matches.

“The thunder, which the Dakotas believe to be a winged monster, and which in character seems to answer very well to the Mars of the ancient heathen, bore down upon the Iowa village in a most terrible and god-like manner. Tempests howled, the forked lightnings flashed, and the thunders uttered their voices; the earth trembled; a thunderbolt was hurled at the devoted village, which ploughed the earth, and formed that deep ravine.”
(Miner 1911 pg. 29)

Who said anything about South America?

The problem I see it with Wayne May's ideas is that he doesn't really seem to grasp the descriptions of the many migrations northward, of both Nephites and Lamanites. He doesn't seem to allow the possibility of many other groups coming in from the Mediterranean and Near/Middle East and elsewhere that may have been entirely unrelated to the Nephites and Lamanites per se, but may have had similar cultural/religious underpinnings.

He ignores the critique of his use of DNA data by working geneticists. I've never seen a reply to their critiques from him. Maybe you can supply one.

[larsenb]

Joseph also said . . . . . . . “The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them. . . . . . .

All this means is that he was referring to a particular set of Indians in these locations. He said nothing about 'Native Americans' in other parts of the United States, Central America and elsewhere.

This is an example of the either/or, black-and-white logical fallacy, also known as the 'bifurcation' logical fallacy.

Wayne May and his followers seem to be particularly susceptible to this fallacy along with the ones called: sweeping and hasty generalizations. And I don't think I've ever seen adequate rebuttals to the very telling critiques that have been written about his ideas and model. One gets the sense 'Mayans' (in this case, followers of Wayne May) are simply holding on to their ideas as tightly and as blindered as they can.

One of the strengths of the Mesoamerican model is that its proponents don't deny that Nephites/Mayans may have migrated, in part, to the lands northward. And I've never seen them deny or ignore the possibility that many other groups may have come into the New World, from wherever and whenever they may have made their migrations. In fact, John Sorenson (who I don't always agree with), has even written a book cataloguing possible examples of these migrations.

[larsenb]

The new Madrid faults can do all the damage as described in the Book of Mormon

Nope, not true. But not worth arguing the point with you.