Who would want to visit western Europe anymore?

[Fiannan]

[David13]

Robin Hood
Inspiration has identified you to me.
You are a conservative. As long as you are inside the church. You interpret the Gospel in a manner known as strict construction. A conservative approach to the Gospel, God's laws and all that goes with it. Most admirable.

The minute you step out the church door, POOF! Presto! Chango! You transform or transfigure into a socialist in your secular existence.

Like one of Dr. Who's reptilian shape shifters, POOF! You are a socialist.

And as confused about the real world as any other pot smoking, wine guzzling, or just nutty socialist.

You posted elsewhere about how the NHS provides FREE medical care for someone.

Do you believe that the NHS has a money spring underneath their head office, where money just bubbles up to the surface, and then, magically, magnanimously they use it to provide free health care?

Well, then, you know you were lying when you said it's free, weren't you?

So you should not criticize what others say, when they have a firm grasp on reality.

You should stick to theology. I think you're good at it.
dc


Also, fiannan, Robin Hood, George, that John Cleese video is old. At least a few years old. But made long ago.

[harakim]

I want to go to Western Europe to visit the land of my ancestors.

London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Paris perhaps?

Luckily not Paris or Brussels. German, English and Scandanavian, like most people I guess. Also one mystery line from somewhere else.

[Robin Hood]

Dc,
I always assume that the person I am addressing is at least as intelligent as me, possibly more so.
Perhaps that is my mistake when discussing issues with you.
When I said the NHS treats people for free, I meant, as I'm sure most people understand, "free at the point of delivery". If that was not your understanding, perhaps my assumptions about you were incorrect. If so, I apologise.

So I will explain it for you. "Free at the point of delivery" means that there is no personal financial test (with the exception of prescription drugs) when assessing the delivery of medical interventions. For example, the fact that you are a multi-millionaire and I am on minimum wage or an old age pensioner on social security would make no difference at all to the cancer treatment we would both receive on the NHS.
We in the UK like our NHS. Every western country, with the single exception of the US, has something similar.
You guys will catch up eventually, even if you have to establish Zion in order to understand it.

On the wider point of your "inspiration" I would just say that you appear to suffer from a very polarized mindset. You seem to need to label everything according to your worldview. In your world there exists only conservatives (= good) and socialists (= bad). Apparently, there is nothing inbetween. All conservative concepts are perfect and righteous, everything else is evil.
It's simplistic, I'll give you that.
I refer you to my first paragraph.

Just for the record (once again) I have never voted for a socialist, or even a social democratic party in my life and never would. I'm a conservative with libertarian leanings and think government should be as small as possible.
Because no party represents my views, and no party even attempts to be righteous these days, I now refuse to vote. The only time I have voted in recent years was in the EU referendum, when I campaigned and voted for the very anti-socialist position of Leave. And I'm pleased to say, we won.
So much for your "inspiration" dc.

[gclayjr]

Robin Hood,

Dc,
I always assume that the person I am addressing is at least as intelligent as me, possibly more so.
Perhaps that is my mistake when discussing issues with you.
When I said the NHS treats people for free, I meant, as I'm sure most people understand, "free at the point of delivery". If that was not your understanding, perhaps my assumptions about you were incorrect. If so, I apologise.

So I will explain it for you. "Free at the point of delivery" means that there is no personal financial test (with the exception of prescription drugs) when assessing the delivery of medical interventions. For example, the fact that you are a multi-millionaire and I am on minimum wage or an old age pensioner on social security would make no difference at all to the cancer treatment we would both receive on the NHS.
We in the UK like our NHS. Every western country, with the single exception of the US, has something similar.
You guys will catch up eventually, even if we have to establish Zion in order to do it.

You might want to look in the mirror before you disparage DCs intelligence. The very fact that your NHS does NOT have a personal financial test is what makes it a Socialist program. If there was a financial test, then you could make an argument that it was a program to help the needy.

That is the main part of the Socialist deception. They sell it as something to help the needy, then demand that all participate.

Regards,

George Clay

[Robin Hood]

Robin Hood,

Dc,
I always assume that the person I am addressing is at least as intelligent as me, possibly more so.
Perhaps that is my mistake when discussing issues with you.
When I said the NHS treats people for free, I meant, as I'm sure most people understand, "free at the point of delivery". If that was not your understanding, perhaps my assumptions about you were incorrect. If so, I apologise.

So I will explain it for you. "Free at the point of delivery" means that there is no personal financial test (with the exception of prescription drugs) when assessing the delivery of medical interventions. For example, the fact that you are a multi-millionaire and I am on minimum wage or an old age pensioner on social security would make no difference at all to the cancer treatment we would both receive on the NHS.
We in the UK like our NHS. Every western country, with the single exception of the US, has something similar.
You guys will catch up eventually, even if we have to establish Zion in order to do it.

You might want to look in the mirror before you disparage DCs intelligence. The very fact that your NHS does NOT have a personal financial test is what makes it a Socialist program. If there was a financial test, then you could make an argument that it was a program to help the needy.

That is the main part of the Socialist deception. They sell it as something to help the needy, then demand that all participate.

Regards,

George Clay

George,
I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong.
The NHS is designed to deliver first class health care to all, not just to the needy.
The fact that the American system does have a personal financial test makes it an evil system. "You can buy anything in this world with money" - remember who said that?
I have relatives in the US and I know how badly they have been treated over the years because they had the audacity to not earn enough money to pay for the healthcare they needed. They worked 14 hours a day, 7 days a week running their own Sears franchise, and couldn't afford health insurance!
Great country!

[gclayjr]

Robin Hood,

George,
I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong.
The NHS is designed to deliver first class health care to all, not just to the needy.

Do you not understand Socialism????

Even if the NHS was the greatest thing since sliced bread, Any program that takes from the rich (Taxes) and in the name of fairness redistributes it to all by the government is Socialist. I would have thought that you who lectures me on the differences between Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy would understand that basic fact.

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

Robin Hood,

Maybe you should read this article about the NHS, its history and their explanation of its problems by "Socialism Today"

http://www.socialismtoday.org/120/nhs.html

But the leaders of the workers’ parties – social democratic and Communist – saved capitalism by diverting this revolutionary wave into safe channels. American dollars then poured into western Europe to ensure capitalism was stabilised.
The National Health Service

THE LEADING LEFT-winger in the Labour government, Aneurin Bevan, became minister of health. Brought up in poverty in the South Wales coalfields, his father had been a founder member of the Tredegar Working Men’s Medical Aid Society. Embryos of a new society based on collective workers’ organisation can develop within capitalist society. Bevan applied this on a larger scale with his design for the NHS, although without any element of workers’ control.

The main components of the NHS were nationalisation of hospital services with free access; planning at regional level, enabling more equal distribution; everyone could register with a General Practitioner and receive free medical care; dentistry was freely available for the first time; opticians provided free eye examinations and glasses; prescription medicines were free. The money for this came from central government, raised through taxation, although as early as 1951, Labour introduced charges for prescriptions, glasses and dental treatment.

Maybe this will help you to understand the basics of Socialism and the NHS... from the point of view of the Socialists themselves.

Regards,

George Clay

[Vision]

Robin Hood,

Dc,
I always assume that the person I am addressing is at least as intelligent as me, possibly more so.
Perhaps that is my mistake when discussing issues with you.
When I said the NHS treats people for free, I meant, as I'm sure most people understand, "free at the point of delivery". If that was not your understanding, perhaps my assumptions about you were incorrect. If so, I apologise.

So I will explain it for you. "Free at the point of delivery" means that there is no personal financial test (with the exception of prescription drugs) when assessing the delivery of medical interventions. For example, the fact that you are a multi-millionaire and I am on minimum wage or an old age pensioner on social security would make no difference at all to the cancer treatment we would both receive on the NHS.
We in the UK like our NHS. Every western country, with the single exception of the US, has something similar.
You guys will catch up eventually, even if we have to establish Zion in order to do it.

You might want to look in the mirror before you disparage DCs intelligence. The very fact that your NHS does NOT have a personal financial test is what makes it a Socialist program. If there was a financial test, then you could make an argument that it was a program to help the needy.

That is the main part of the Socialist deception. They sell it as something to help the needy, then demand that all participate.

Regards,

George Clay

George

The US system can't turn away patient's based upon ability to pay. That's why emergency rooms are so busy treating common colds, and other non emergency medical situations. Only fool's believe that the US isn't a socialist state.

[gclayjr]

Vision,

The US system can't turn away patient's based upon ability to pay. That's why emergency rooms are so busy treating common colds, and other non emergency medical situations. Only fool's believe that the US isn't a socialist state.

Neither Britain nor the U.S. is a socialist state. Socialism is creeping in. While there is a hint of Socialism here, it is much less socialism than NHS. (In many ways Britain has walked further down this path than the U.S.)

1) The hospital not the Government pays for the indigent care = this is Charitable

2) The Government MAKES the Hospital pay - This is a significant part totalitarianism (which is behind socialism) and a small element of Socialism

This actually is much less Socialist than Obama Care, because it is targeted only at the indigent, and doesn't try to "Level" the field. Obama care is targeted at all, those who are indigent (Charity) and everybody else - to make things more "FAIR?

The whole Strategy of Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats is to implement socialism step by step into society through the democratic process.

Regards,

George Clay

[David13]

Fudge. That's what you are doing. Fudging. Dodging.

What about that big whopper. You said I'm a member of a socialist church. Another inability to see reality. This church is not a socialist church and Jesus Christ was not a socialist.

See if you can refute this:

https://fee.org/resources/rendering-unt ... socialist/

If you can, I'm all ears. Not that I will believe your refutation, but I'm all ears, or eyes to read it.

I think it directly deals with another of your great misconceptions.


As to the American health care system. BEFORE abominalcare if a person needed medical they got it. Then, they were billed. If they had nothing and couldn't pay, that was the end of it. No one was ever turned away.

If they could pay they were hounded til they at least paid something. Maybe only $.10 on the dollar.

So in fact it was a need based system.

What reality is under the abominalcare system I don't know.
dc

[Robin Hood]

Robin Hood,

Dc,
I always assume that the person I am addressing is at least as intelligent as me, possibly more so.
Perhaps that is my mistake when discussing issues with you.
When I said the NHS treats people for free, I meant, as I'm sure most people understand, "free at the point of delivery". If that was not your understanding, perhaps my assumptions about you were incorrect. If so, I apologise.

So I will explain it for you. "Free at the point of delivery" means that there is no personal financial test (with the exception of prescription drugs) when assessing the delivery of medical interventions. For example, the fact that you are a multi-millionaire and I am on minimum wage or an old age pensioner on social security would make no difference at all to the cancer treatment we would both receive on the NHS.
We in the UK like our NHS. Every western country, with the single exception of the US, has something similar.
You guys will catch up eventually, even if we have to establish Zion in order to do it.

You might want to look in the mirror before you disparage DCs intelligence. The very fact that your NHS does NOT have a personal financial test is what makes it a Socialist program. If there was a financial test, then you could make an argument that it was a program to help the needy.

That is the main part of the Socialist deception. They sell it as something to help the needy, then demand that all participate.

Regards,

George Clay

George

The US system can't turn away patient's based upon ability to pay. That's why emergency rooms are so busy treating common colds, and other non emergency medical situations. Only fool's believe that the US isn't a socialist state.

My nephew broke his leg quite badly while playing basketball.
Yes, he was treated in the emergency room ok.... and then got a bill for $50,000!

[Robin Hood]

You said I'm a member of a socialist church.

You are a member of a church which clearly practices many socialist principles.
You can deny it 'til the cows come home, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is true.
Sorry to mess with your polarized mindset dc.

[Robin Hood]

Vision,

The US system can't turn away patient's based upon ability to pay. That's why emergency rooms are so busy treating common colds, and other non emergency medical situations. Only fool's believe that the US isn't a socialist state.

Neither Britain nor the U.S. is a socialist state. Socialism is creeping in. While there is a hint of Socialism here, it is much less socialism than NHS. (In many ways Britain has walked further down this path than the U.S.)

1) The hospital not the Government pays for the indigent care = this is Charitable

2) The Government MAKES the Hospital pay - This is a significant part totalitarianism (which is behind socialism) and a small element of Socialism

This actually is much less Socialist than Obama Care, because it is targeted only at the indigent, and doesn't try to "Level" the field. Obama care is targeted at all, those who are indigent (Charity) and everybody else - to make things more "FAIR?

The whole Strategy of Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats is to implement socialism step by step into society through the democratic process.

Regards,

George Clay

I actually think many of you guys over the pond are quite uninformed about the NHS, which is why such sweeping, generalized, and inaccurate statements are made with such regularity.

The NHS is owned by the State, not by the government. It is funded from a number of sources, but primarily by government. However, the government get the money from the people. The money the people pay in order to access the NHS is in the form of something called National Insurance. This insurance is paid by employees and employers.
The NHS is such a good service (in general, though not perfect of course) that most people are perfectly happy to pay for it.

Some NHS staff are employed directly by the NHS. However, all GP's (medical doctors not employed in NHS hospitals) are self-employed or partners in a medical practice. They provide contracted services to the NHS (though they don't have to) as well as private services to patients.

If someone is determined to use only private health care that is their choice. They can consult any doctor privately, can engage any surgeon, even one that works for the NHS most of the time, privately; and can even have private procedures performed in NHS owned hospitals and facilities.
They are also free to use private hospitals if they wish, and can contract private health insurance if they want to.

I know a number of Americans who live over here, including my own son-in-law. Every one of them think the NHS is great, and way better than anything they have experienced in the US on the whole. Obviously, both systems have strengths and weaknesses.
Even non-British (mostly American) LDS missionaries use it!

[gclayjr]

Robin Hood,

It is difficult to have any kind of a coherent conversation with you, because while your animosity for America, Americans, and especially red necks shines though like a spotlight, you wobble all over and don't seem to either understand what you are talking about or have true core values.

You say

Just for the record (once again) I have never voted for a socialist, or even a social democratic party in my life and never would. I'm a conservative with libertarian leanings and think government should be as small as possible.

Do you even know what Libertarian Means?

The NHS is owned by the State, not by the government. It is funded from a number of sources, but primarily by government. However, the government get the money from the people. The money the people pay in order to access the NHS is in the form of something called National Insurance. This insurance is paid by employees and employers.
The NHS is such a good service (in general, though not perfect of course) that most people are perfectly happy to pay for it.

Do you even know what Socialism means?

The NHS is designed to deliver first class health care to all, not just to the needy.
The fact that the American system does have a personal financial test makes it an evil system. "You can buy anything in this world with money" - remember who said that?
I have relatives in the US and I know how badly they have been treated over the years because they had the audacity to not earn enough money to pay for the healthcare they needed. They worked 14 hours a day, 7 days a week running their own Sears franchise, and couldn't afford health insurance!
Great country!

The fact that you love your "Socialist" NHS, and hate the somewhat more capitalist American system, doesn't chage the meaning of Socialism or Capitalism. It just shows that you give lip service to being a conservative with libertarian leanings when in actuality you are a socialist.

You are a member of a church which clearly practices many socialist principles.
You can deny it 'til the cows come home, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is true.
Sorry to mess with your polarized mindset dc.

This is just like your other statements. Just an assertion without facts.


Enjoy your dream world. I don't know about other Red Neck White Trash Americans, but I can assure you I would be quite pleased if you just stay in your Beloved UK, with its beloved highly Socialized medical care, labor laws, and Muslim invasion, fantasizing that it isn't what it is, and Leave us alone to try and keep our country from falling into the same hell-hole.

Regards,

George Clay

[Robin Hood]

... and Leave us alone..

George Clay

So, let me get this straight.
You think that my participating on this forum is not leaving you alone?
Seriously?

I didn't realize you were so insecure.

[gclayjr]

Robin Hood,

gclayjr wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:14 am



... and Leave us alone..

George Clay

So, let me get this straight.
You think that my participating on this forum is not leaving you alone?
Seriously?

I didn't realize you were so insecure.
Top

Again a complete lack of communication. This thread is about visiting Western Europe, What I meant was you stay in Britain, and we will stay here in the US that you have so much contempt for.

You can enjoy the socialist programs you enjoy, that you don't call socialist that exists in Britain, and we can struggle to keep that crap from further infecting us.

Regards

George Clay

[Robin Hood]

Robin Hood,

gclayjr wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:14 am



... and Leave us alone..

George Clay

So, let me get this straight.
You think that my participating on this forum is not leaving you alone?
Seriously?

I didn't realize you were so insecure.
Top

Again a complete lack of communication. This thread is about visiting Western Europe, What I meant was you stay in Britain, and we will stay here in the US that you have so much contempt for.

You can enjoy the socialist programs you enjoy, that you don't call socialist that exists in Britain, and we can struggle to keep that crap from further infecting us.

Regards

George Clay

You're talking in riddles now George.
The thread is about you guys not visiting western Europe, so you tell me to stay here!
Whatever "crap" is infecting you George, your muddled reasoning suggests to me it's already too late!

[David13]

You said I'm a member of a socialist church.

You are a member of a church which clearly practices many socialist principles.
You can deny it 'til the cows come home, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is true.
Sorry to mess with your polarized mindset dc.

How can you be so blind? By choice, I guess.

You should read what I posted.

Jesus Christ was not a socialist. And the church is not a socialist organization.

It's just clear that you not only don't understand a thing about how the world operates, you don't understand what socialism is, and is not.

I can't educate someone who chooses to be blissfully ignorant.
dc

[David13]

Robin Hood,

gclayjr wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:14 am



... and Leave us alone..

George Clay

So, let me get this straight.
You think that my participating on this forum is not leaving you alone?
Seriously?

I didn't realize you were so insecure.
Top

Again a complete lack of communication. This thread is about visiting Western Europe, What I meant was you stay in Britain, and we will stay here in the US that you have so much contempt for.

You can enjoy the socialist programs you enjoy, that you don't call socialist that exists in Britain, and we can struggle to keep that crap from further infecting us.

Regards

George Clay

You're talking in riddles now George.
The thread is about you guys not visiting western Europe, so you tell me to stay here!
Whatever "crap" is infecting you George, your muddled reasoning suggests to me it's already too late!

Robin Hood, part of your problem is that you believe your own lies. You think if you say the NHS is free, then it is free. It isn't.

What's the difference between the government and the state? Nothing. It's only different levels of the same thing. Here at least. Again, a distinction without a difference.

But it's above your head, I guess, so you end up with nothing but pure nonsense. Again. Don't you get bored with it?
dc

[gclayjr]

Robin Hood,

You're talking in riddles now George.
The thread is about you guys not visiting western Europe, so you tell me to stay here!
Whatever "crap" is infecting you George, your muddled reasoning suggests to me it's already too late!

You are now doing the same thing to me as you do to David13. I lay out a step by step case using your own words to show that you are either deceptive or confused about Socialism, Libertarianism, and how wonderful the NHS is (That you have convinced yourself is some free market entity ... largely based upon the fact that people Rich enough, even after vast amounts of taxes have been extorted from them, still choose to bail out and pay for private services....instead of the free NHS).

Then what is your response? You address no real points. You seize upon an inelegant phrase that is not even important to the points being made, and pound that with insulting adjectives, and ignore either actually rebutting my points, or making a clear case for yours.

I will accept your snarky seizing upon inelegant phrases and ignoring cogent points as proof that below your snarky comments resides ... well nothing.


Regards,

George Clay

[True]

Not to interrupt your fight or anything but I have visited Western Europe three times in the last 8 years or so. Twice we drove over 2,000 miles around Robin Hood’s nice island. Maybe next time I can stop by and say hi. We also went to Paris, Switzerland, Austria and parts of Germany. You go to Western Europe because of the love of history, at least that is why I did it.

You go because the Scottish highlands are calling your name and because in your eyes, through the misty green landscape you can see men in kilts battling it out in a cattle raid. You go because in Scotland, you ancestor John Allen from Kirkentilloch, found the gospel of Jesus Christ and crossed an ocean for the sake of the Lord, dying a good death in a small town in Utah where he scratched out a living in the desert.
You go because you can see the kings and queens of the greatest empire and of your ancestors, lying in state and their tombs can be touched with your hands and really, the Black Prince must have been shorter than I imagined to fit in that box. You go because you can feel the spirit in St. Paul’s cathedral where many of the worlds greatest men greet you with their grand statues. There they are! The Duke of Wellington, Horatio Nelson and the British generals that we know from our Revolutionary War.

You go because Austria (through the Habsburgs) was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire for hundreds of years, up until Napoleon Bonaparte forced a dissolution. There are endless historical and actual treasures there. In one museum there were many, many artifacts from Ephesus and I wondered if Paul had layed eyes on any of those statues. I got to see the car that the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie were assasinated in, along with his bloody uniform that he was wearing. Also, much shorter than I thought. I don’t know how you beat that.

I got to go to ancient abbeys and horrid concentration camps and fantastical castles and the bird’s nest and I rowed a boat on lake Geneva with friends from home who lived in Switzerland on that placid lake. We ate chocolate and ascended the highest heights to see the Matterhorn where Jesus in twisted agony hangs on his metal cross overlooking the alps, forever cold.

You go to attend the temples in foreign lands and rub shoulders with the saints. In Bern, Switzerland we had a sealing session where the sealer performed the ordinance in English, French, Italian and German - according to the language of the patrons present. There was such a feeling of unity that all present embraced each other warmly and shed tears though we could not communicate with each other. In that very sealing session, a couple from a town 5 miles away from us in Arizona were sealed for time and all eternity. We did not know where they were from just that they spoke English. When we saw them at the exit of the temple they told us where they were from and we could not believe it! We spent the rest of the day together and now are friends with them and get together to attend the temple here. It was like it was meant to be, and though they are 20 years older than us, we are kindred spirits.

Don’t get me wrong, the United States is great and has a divine history, but as my son would put it....Western Europe is fricken awesome!

[True]

I forgot about Norte-Dame cathedral where a group of blessed American teenagers were performing strings on a little raised stage behind the church. I could tell because they were dressed like Americans, normal. The city is beautiful and as a bonus, so is the food. Some of the people could have been nicer but....the Mona Lisa! Really, it is mind blowing how ordinary it is!!
Also, Shakespeare!! London plays and the opera in Vienna. There is NOT enough sugar in ANY of the deserts in continental Europe. A major downside.
Oh, the Isle of Skye where we literally felt like Adam and Eve in the lone and dreary world and where there was a traffic jam of highland cows, with their long, orange, whispy hair covering their eyes. We had to wait until an amorous couple of bovine finished their Scottish romance right there in the road for all the world to see! Well, at least we saw it.

[David13]

I forgot about Norte-Dame cathedral where a group of blessed American teenagers were performing strings on a little raised stage behind the church. I could tell because they were dressed like Americans, normal. The city is beautiful and as a bonus, so is the food. Some of the people could have been nicer but....the Mona Lisa! Really, it is mind blowing how ordinary it is!!
Also, Shakespeare!! London plays and the opera in Vienna. There is NOT enough sugar in ANY of the deserts in continental Europe. A major downside.

It was not a fight. It is a debate.

You are quite right about both your posts.

But what our debate is about is that all that you say is being destroyed, taken away, overrun by heathen hordes under the banner of a "religion" that is actually an evil political system. A dangerous and violent one.

We are lamenting the loss, the inevitable and already started loss of exactly what you went to see.
dc

[True]

I know what you are doing. It seems more like a fight to me and so I am distracting, deflecting, trying to go off topic in a wonderful way:). It was fun to remember all of those good times.
Also, it is okay for someone to be a product of their culture. Most of us are. At least all of you seem to have thick skin and are similar types of ??...not nice.