Outer darkness forever?

[butterfly]

STCMC...

What does this mean in English? #-o

Can of worms, butterfly. Don't open!

Oh, c'mon. It can't be that bad.
Rachel has very insightful comments when I can keep up with them.

[Rose Garden]

STCMC...

What does this mean in English? #-o

Can of worms, butterfly. Don't open!

Oh, c'mon. It can't be that bad.
Rachel has very insightful comments when I can keep up with them.

Well, it isn't as bad as CCM, that's for sure.

[Rose Garden]

Okay, I'll quit teasing. Rachel added a letter. It stands for Strengthening the Members Committee.

[Rachael]

Strengthening the Church Members Committee. Kinda like a Mormon-NSA. They scour the "bloggeracle", social media, publications, etc, and are speculated to be the catalyst behind many of the ex-ing of unorthodox Mormon bloggers, authors, etc., by info mining and turning people in for apostasy. Rock Waterman may be one example.

[Rose Garden]

Oops. I guess you didn't add a letter. I should learn to keep quiet until I know what I'm talking about.

[Rachael]

What does this mean in English? #-o

Can of worms, butterfly. Don't open!

Oh, c'mon. It can't be that bad.
Rachel has very insightful comments when I can keep up with them.

Well, it isn't as bad as CCM, that's for sure.

Contemporary Christian Music?

[Rose Garden]

Can of worms, butterfly. Don't open!

Oh, c'mon. It can't be that bad.
Rachel has very insightful comments when I can keep up with them.

Well, it isn't as bad as CCM, that's for sure.

Contemporary Christian Music?

Err,.... yes, sure. :-s

[Rachael]

Oops. I guess you didn't add a letter. I should learn to keep quiet until I know what I'm talking about.

Please don't. I've heard the abc's of this committee's name both ways. So who knows, it's kinda clandestine.

[Rachael]

:ymapplause:

Oh, c'mon. It can't be that bad.
Rachel has very insightful comments when I can keep up with them.

Well, it isn't as bad as CCM, that's for sure.

Contemporary Christian Music?

Err,.... yes, sure. :-s

This?

"CCM mode (Counter with CBC-MAC) is a mode of operation for cryptographic block ciphers. It is an authenticated encryption algorithm designed to provide both authentication and confidentiality. CCM mode is only defined for block ciphers with a block length of 128 bits. In RFC 3610, it is defined for use with AES.

The Initialization Vector (IV) of CCM must be carefully chosen to never be used more than once for a given key. This is because CCM is a derivation of CTR mode and the latter is effectively a stream cipher.[1]...'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCM_mode" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are in " CTR" so it must be OK...

[Rose Garden]

:ymapplause:

Well, it isn't as bad as CCM, that's for sure.

Contemporary Christian Music?

Err,.... yes, sure. :-s

This?

"CCM mode (Counter with CBC-MAC) is a mode of operation for cryptographic block ciphers. It is an authenticated encryption algorithm designed to provide both authentication and confidentiality. CCM mode is only defined for block ciphers with a block length of 128 bits. In RFC 3610, it is defined for use with AES.

The Initialization Vector (IV) of CCM must be carefully chosen to never be used more than once for a given key. This is because CCM is a derivation of CTR mode and the latter is effectively a stream cipher.[1]...'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCM_mode" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are in " CTR" so it must be OK...

Yeah. That's totally what I was talking about....

:-\

[skmo]

:ymapplause:

Contemporary Christian Music?

Err,.... yes, sure. :-s

This?

"CCM mode (Counter with CBC-MAC) is a mode of operation for cryptographic block ciphers. It is an authenticated encryption algorithm designed to provide both authentication and confidentiality. CCM mode is only defined for block ciphers with a block length of 128 bits. In RFC 3610, it is defined for use with AES.

The Initialization Vector (IV) of CCM must be carefully chosen to never be used more than once for a given key. This is because CCM is a derivation of CTR mode and the latter is effectively a stream cipher.[1]...'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCM_mode" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are in " CTR" so it must be OK...

Yeah. That's totally what I was talking about....

:-\

Don't worry. Go have lunch at the Cheesecake Factory and forget about it.

[Rose Garden]

:ymapplause:

Err,.... yes, sure. :-s

This?

"CCM mode (Counter with CBC-MAC) is a mode of operation for cryptographic block ciphers. It is an authenticated encryption algorithm designed to provide both authentication and confidentiality. CCM mode is only defined for block ciphers with a block length of 128 bits. In RFC 3610, it is defined for use with AES.

The Initialization Vector (IV) of CCM must be carefully chosen to never be used more than once for a given key. This is because CCM is a derivation of CTR mode and the latter is effectively a stream cipher.[1]...'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCM_mode" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are in " CTR" so it must be OK...

Yeah. That's totally what I was talking about....

:-\

Don't worry. Go have lunch at the Cheesecake Factory and forget about it.

Mmmmmm.....

[Mark]

:ymapplause:

Err,.... yes, sure. :-s

This?

"CCM mode (Counter with CBC-MAC) is a mode of operation for cryptographic block ciphers. It is an authenticated encryption algorithm designed to provide both authentication and confidentiality. CCM mode is only defined for block ciphers with a block length of 128 bits. In RFC 3610, it is defined for use with AES.

The Initialization Vector (IV) of CCM must be carefully chosen to never be used more than once for a given key. This is because CCM is a derivation of CTR mode and the latter is effectively a stream cipher.[1]...'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCM_mode" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are in " CTR" so it must be OK...

Yeah. That's totally what I was talking about....

:-\

Don't worry. Go have lunch at the Cheesecake Factory and forget about it.

Just don't take Col. stick up his capture the Flagg with you. He will spread some seriously bad karma all over the experience. :ymsmug:

[janderich]

Will the Creator (of the forum) keep those banished to Outer Darkness there forever, it will he show mercy and forgiveness to those poor souls, once they have paid the price for their various forum transgressions?

Having been banished before makes me sensitive to these people's plight. They need a voice on the general discussion area to advocate for their release from forum prison.

Just as it is with the Lord, it is not about paying a price but about changing. When a person has changed they are freed from their own prison. Now, since we don't know a persons heart like the Lord does, I would advocate some limited probationary period which would allow them to return, but if they break form rules they would again be banished.

Check out DC 19 and tell me that hell is not about paying a price.
Please return and report.

Well lets see what it tells us, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent" (D&C 19:16). Clearly if we repent, if we change, then our suffering has an end. We suffer only if we do not repent. Go and do likewise my friend.

[Obrien]

Negative, janderich.
You AVOID (as opposed to decreasing the duration of) the just punishment for your sins by relying on the merits of your Advocate.

[janderich]

Well, this is probably not the post for discussing the consequences of sin and the atonement in depth. Suffice it to say that you and I see this important point quite differently.

[Obrien]

Well, this is probably not the post for discussing the consequences of sin and the atonement in depth. Suffice it to say that you and I see this important point quite differently.

This is a great post for discussing sin and atonement.

Please expand on your views. I'm always open to learn more truth about sin, repentance and the atonement. I'd be grateful for any light you can impart on these topics.

[butterfly]

Negative, janderich.
You AVOID (as opposed to decreasing the duration of) the just punishment for your sins by relying on the merits of your Advocate.

I'm not sure I understand you here, O'Brien.
How does one avoid the punishment of their sins? You can't- you reap what you sow. In a school analogy:
if you fail a class, then the atonement allows you to retake the course, but it doesn't let you skip ahead to the next class. You still suffer the consequences of failing- you have to repeat the class.
The Savior repeating the class for you doesn't help you learn the material.
(I apologize if I'm misreading your point.)

[Matchmaker]

I hope everyone who visits this forum and is consigned to posting in outer darkness will soon be able to post anywhere they want. I think we all have something important to share, and I enjoy reading opposing and controversial views. As long as the posts are not vulgar or mocking others, I'm all for free speech.

[Obrien]

Negative, janderich.
You AVOID (as opposed to decreasing the duration of) the just punishment for your sins by relying on the merits of your Advocate.

I'm not sure I understand you here, O'Brien.
How does one avoid the punishment of their sins? You can't- you reap what you sow. In a school analogy:
if you fail a class, then the atonement allows you to retake the course, but it doesn't let you skip ahead to the next class. You still suffer the consequences of failing- you have to repeat the class.
The Savior repeating the class for you doesn't help you learn the material.
(I apologize if I'm misreading your point.)

DC 19:16 is clear to me: repent OR suffer. I know Jesus can fulfill this word. I am far from perfect. I have many sins of omission and commission that routinely plague my soul. My life, however, is on an upward trajectory in terms of HFC, despite the weaknesses of the flesh. I rely on the promise noted above.

I'm not sure the school analogy holds up in relation to the atonement - the atonement is the ultimate outlier in terms of cause and effect, and that affects the validity of the analogy, imo.

[butterfly]

Negative, janderich.
You AVOID (as opposed to decreasing the duration of) the just punishment for your sins by relying on the merits of your Advocate.

I'm not sure I understand you here, O'Brien.
How does one avoid the punishment of their sins? You can't- you reap what you sow. In a school analogy:
if you fail a class, then the atonement allows you to retake the course, but it doesn't let you skip ahead to the next class. You still suffer the consequences of failing- you have to repeat the class.
The Savior repeating the class for you doesn't help you learn the material.
(I apologize if I'm misreading your point.)

DC 19:16 is clear to me: repent OR suffer. I know Jesus can fulfill this word. I am far from perfect. I have many sins of omission and commission that routinely plague my soul. My life, however, is on an upward trajectory in terms of HFC, despite the weaknesses of the flesh. I rely on the promise noted above.

I believe we are talking about 2 different things. When we sin, there are 2 consequences that follow: the natural consequence and the eternal consequence. The atonement does not take away the natural consequence.
If you have sex, you can get pregnant and no amount of repenting can send that baby back to heaven. This is the natural consequence.
However, if you repent, then you can have your heart changed and would therefore not be living forever in your sin - this is how the atonement takes care of the eternal consequence.
If you do not allow the atonement to change your heart, then you would be in a hell. When you repent, the sorrow that you feel is a form of suffering for your sin, which allows you to come out of hell.

[Obrien]

Negative, janderich.
You AVOID (as opposed to decreasing the duration of) the just punishment for your sins by relying on the merits of your Advocate.

I'm not sure I understand you here, O'Brien.
How does one avoid the punishment of their sins? You can't- you reap what you sow. In a school analogy:
if you fail a class, then the atonement allows you to retake the course, but it doesn't let you skip ahead to the next class. You still suffer the consequences of failing- you have to repeat the class.
The Savior repeating the class for you doesn't help you learn the material.
(I apologize if I'm misreading your point.)

DC 19:16 is clear to me: repent OR suffer. I know Jesus can fulfill this word. I am far from perfect. I have many sins of omission and commission that routinely plague my soul. My life, however, is on an upward trajectory in terms of HFC, despite the weaknesses of the flesh. I rely on the promise noted above.

I believe we are talking about 2 different things. When we sin, there are 2 consequences that follow: the natural consequence and the eternal consequence. The atonement does not take away the natural consequence.
If you have sex, you can get pregnant and no amount of repenting can send that baby back to heaven. This is the natural consequence.
However, if you repent, then you can have your heart changed and would therefore not be living forever in your sin - this is how the atonement takes care of the eternal consequence.
If you do not allow the atonement to change your heart, then you would be in a hell. When you repent, the sorrow that you feel is a form of suffering for your sin, which allows you to come out of hell.

I am specifically thinking about punishment for unrepentant persons, in hell, for their sins. The scriptures state that we can be relieved from this punishment by repenting and relying on Jesus. Janderich (above) said repenting lessens the time a person is tormented for their sins, and I disagreed with that premise. You also state that repenting brings on sorrow, which is a sort of suffering for sin here on earth (I presume), and that after the sorrow is felt, you come out of hell and cease to sorrow. Again, I am thinking about actual HELL, the place of torment after this life, not a "hell in your own mind" because you feel guilty for sinning.

I agree with your distinction between natural and eternal consequences for actions. Love the baby example.

[butterfly]

I am specifically thinking about punishment for unrepentant persons, in hell, for their sins. The scriptures state that we can be relieved from this punishment by repenting and relying on Jesus. Janderich (above) said repenting lessens the time a person is tormented for their sins, and I disagreed with that premise. You also state that repenting brings on sorrow, which is a sort of suffering for sin here on earth (I presume), and that after the sorrow is felt, you come out of hell and cease to sorrow. Again, I am thinking about actual HELL, the place of torment after this life, not a "hell in your own mind" because you feel guilty for sinning.

I agree with your distinction between natural and eternal consequences for actions. Love the baby analogy.

Gotcha. So after judgment day, is a person who is consigned to Hell able to repent and get out early on good behavior? I'm thinking no. That's what you have to do before judgment day.
Some people believe this verse refers to hell:
26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

So I agree with your point

[A Random Phrase]

Okay, I'll quit teasing. Rachel added a letter. It stands for Strengthening the Members Committee.

I see that it is officially called the other, but it is also unofficially called what you called it, also. At some point in time, it was also referred to as Strengthening the Saints Committee iirc.
STSMC (new one for me)
STMC
STSC

[janderich]

I am specifically thinking about punishment for unrepentant persons, in hell, for their sins. The scriptures state that we can be relieved from this punishment by repenting and relying on Jesus. Janderich (above) said repenting lessens the time a person is tormented for their sins, and I disagreed with that premise. You also state that repenting brings on sorrow, which is a sort of suffering for sin here on earth (I presume), and that after the sorrow is felt, you come out of hell and cease to sorrow. Again, I am thinking about actual HELL, the place of torment after this life, not a "hell in your own mind" because you feel guilty for sinning.

I agree with your distinction between natural and eternal consequences for actions. Love the baby example.

Sorry for the late reply, I was with the YM at a High Adventure Campout last week.

Suffering for sin starts in this life and continues into the next. Of course, after this life many will more fully realize the error of their ways and this will cause suffering they had not previously known, but this idea of a suffering in Hell, which is independent of the mind is false. There is no torment in Hell separate from the suffering in a persons mind. They are one and the same. Joseph Smith described it a number of times, here is one statement from him on the matter:

There has been much said about the word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it, describing it to be a burning lake of fire and brimstone. But what is hell? it is another modern term, and is taken from hades. I'll hunt after hades as Pat did for the woodchuck.

Hades, the Greek, or Sheol, the Hebrew, these two significations mean a world of spirits. Hades, Sheol, paradise, spirits in prison are all one, it is a world of spirits.

The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection. "I do not think so," says one. If you will go to my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.

The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers. (TPJS 310-311)

Joseph Smith, over and over taught on this point. He spoke of the man hanging on the cross with Jesus who was to be with him in the Spirit World not in paradise. At another time he said:

A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. (TPJS p 357)

What then of the separation of spirits and those who suffered since the days of Noah? The separation from the days of Noah was due to the fact that the righteous did not preach to those who would not hear them. Thus the wicked continued in their mental anguish.

Having this idea firmly in the mind, we can see that repentance is the only way we are freed from suffering. If we repent while in this life, we are thus free in this life. If we repent in the spirit world than we are freed in that world. Therefore, the Lord says, "And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless." (D&C 19:4). In other words we will suffer until we repent. And every person will repent except the Sons of Perdition. Somehow a false notion crept into the mind of the saints that we can end punishment by suffering, such is not the case.

Let me come at it another way. There is not a given amount of suffering for every sin. It does not cost us 10 pain points if we steal and 20 pain points if we commit adultery. We cannot suffer it out. For the Lord elsewhere says, "And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation - that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; and they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not." (D&C 29:43-44). I feel to shout like they of old, "Therefore repent all ye ends of the earth and be saved!"