BKP: "Have I seen HIM?"

[DesertWonderer]

I just ran across the following from BKP. It's great stuff that squarely addresses some false notions that have infiltrated The Church--or is he wrong?

Boyd K. Packer: ”…as students there are some questions that
we could not in propriety ask. One question of this type I am asked occasionally, usually by someone
who is curious, is, ‘Have you seen Him?’ That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have
not asked that question of my Brethren in the Council of the Twelve, thinking that it would be so sacred
and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration—indeed, some authorization—
even to ask it. Though I have not asked that question of others, I have heard them answer it—but not
when they were asked. I have heard one of my Brethren declare, ‘I know, from experiences too sacred to
relate, that Jesus is the Christ.’ I have heard another testify, ‘I know that God lives, I know that the Lord
lives, and more than that, I know the Lord.’ I repeat: they have answered this question not when they
were asked, but under the prompting of the Spirit, on sacred occasions, when ‘the Spirit beareth record.’
(D&C 1:39.) There are some things just too sacred to discuss: not secret, but sacred; not to be discussed,
but to be harbored and protected and regarded with the deepest of reverence. There are many difficult
questions, including some that we will not be able to answer, and many things are to be taken on faith.
As a teacher, therefore, do not let difficult questions create difficult problems for you or for those you
teach.” (Teach Ye Diligently, pp. 86-7) Some truths and experiences are not lawful for man to utter in
the sense that it is not permitted or appropriate to speak of them, except as led and directed by the Holy
Spirit. DCBM, 3:84.

Boyd K. Packer: have come to believe also that it is not wise to continually talk of
unusual spiritual experiences. They are to be guarded with care and shared only when the Spirit itself
prompts us to use them to the blessing of others. I am ever mindful of Alma's words: It is given unto
many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall
not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men,
according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. (Alma 12:9.) I heard President Romney
once counsel mission presidents and their wives in Geneva. "I do not tell all I know. I have never told
my wife all I know, for I found out that if I talked too lightly of sacred things, thereafter the Lord would
not trust me." Ensign, Jan 1983, 53)

[rewcox]

Of recent times, we have seen someone who wrote a book about his experience (not a leader). It started a following. Over time the person wrote a book that suggested a different church history. His following really bought into it, and the defections started.

Cmon, if someone has seen Christ, surely they know things!

Well, I don't know how many casualties because of this, but it has been sad. I agree with sacred things being sacred, not for public display.

[Serragon]

When we read scriptural accounts of people who have seen Christ or other Divine messengers, their instructions are almost never to go out and tell people that they have seen Him. It seems that their instructions are usually to cry repentance or something similar. The visitation was for their personal benefit but is not really part of the message they are supposed to deliver.

I agree that in almost every occasion it should be kept sacred and not shared. I have had a few very choice experiences with the Spirit. I have only shared the details of those experiences a few times in very private circumstances. Those experiences were my gift for my edification. There are no words that can express the feelings, thoughts, and experiences I had. Unless the circumstance are right and all of the audience have the Spirit with them, any retelling is a diminished version that cannot have the same effect on the listener as it did on me.

[marc]

I respect BKP's decision to reveal/not reveal as he chooses. Likewise for all our other leaders. Consider however, other experiences, of which we do not have entire accounts for they are not lawful to utter unless the Lord expressly has given consent as with the Brother of Jared.

Nephi:

2 Nephi 11: 2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.

4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.

Almost forgot. Their father also saw Him and thus was also redeemed from the fall.

1 Nephi 1:6 And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly.

7 And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.

8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

We don't have all the sacred details of Lehi's vision(s), but consider all that Lehi and Nephi shared, which was lawful to share with the world. Mormon and Moroni also had face time with our Savior as did the brother of Jared. We don't have ALL that he experienced because it is sealed up until the Gentiles repent (if they repent). Even heathens of the Book of Mormon parted the veil.

King Lamoni saw Jesus Christ:

Alma 19:12 And it came to pass that he arose, according to the words of Ammon; and as he arose, he stretched forth his hand unto the woman, and said: Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou.

13 For as sure as thou livest, behold, I have seen my Redeemer; and he shall come forth, and be born of a woman, and he shall redeem all mankind who believe on his name. Now, when he had said these words, his heart was swollen within him, and he sunk again with joy; and the queen also sunk down, being overpowered by the Spirit.

Then we have King Lamoni's wife's witness thereafter:

29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!

30 And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; and when she had done this, she took the king, Lamoni, by the hand, and behold he arose and stood upon his feet.

Oh, and angels had also ministered to them.

Let's fast forward through history.

Joseph Smith:

Joseph Smith,"God does not teach truths on which our salvation or damnation hang through half-remembered second-hand utterances. When saving truth is taught, it is taught by true witnesses who simply report what they have seen and heard.""Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith), p.160

Joseph Smith:

I may believe that Enoch walked with God. I may believe that Abraham communed with God and conversed with angels. I may believe that Isaac obtained a renewal of the covenant made to Abraham by the direct voice of the Lord. I may believe that Jacob conversed with holy angels and heard the word of his Maker, that he wrestled with the angel until he prevailed and obtained a blessing. I may believe that Elijah was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire with fiery horses. I may believe that the saints saw the Lord and conversed with him face to face after his resurrection. I may believe that the Hebrew church came to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. I may believe that they looked into eternity and saw the Judge of all, and Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant. 

But will all this purchase an assurance for me, or waft me to the regions of eternal day with my garments spotless, pure, and white? Or, must I not rather obtain for myself, by my own faith and diligence in keeping the commandments of the Lord, an assurance of salvation for myself? And have I not an equal privilege with the ancient saints? And will not the Lord hear my prayers and listen to my cries as soon as he ever did to theirs if I come to him in the manner they did? (Chapter 10: Prayer and Personal Revelation,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007), 125–34)

Zebedee Coltrin, Recounting of his meeting at the School of the Prophets."There were members as follows: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, William Smith, Frederick G. Williams, Orson Hyde (who had the charge of the school), Zebedee Coltrin, Sylvester Smith, Joseph Smith, Sr., Levi Hancock, Martin Harris, Sidney Rigdon, Newel K. Whitney, Samuel H. Smith, John Murdock, Lyman Johnson and Ezra Thayer....The salutation as written in the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 88:136-141] was carried out at that time, and at every meeting, and the washing of feet was attended to, the sacrament was also administered at times when Joseph appointed, after the ancient order; that is, warm bread to break easy was provided and broken into pieces as large as my fist and each person had a glass of wine and sat and ate the bread and drank the wine; and Joseph said that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine.

And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness. Every time we were called together to attend to any business, we came together in the morning about sunrise, fasting and partook of the sacrament each time, and before going to school we washed ourselves and put on clean linen.At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized_ on the 23rd of January, 1833, when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother.

Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. He (Brother Coltrin) experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.When asked about the kind of clothing the Father had on, Brother Coltrin said: I did not discover his clothing for he was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but his person. I saw his hands, his legs, his feet, his eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. He sat in a chair as a man would sit in a chair, but this appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in his presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones. 

The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that they exist and that they are two separate personages. This appearance occurred about two or three weeks after the opening of the school. After the Father had passed through, Joseph told us to again take our positions in prayer. We did so, and in a very short time he drew our attention and said to us that Brother Reynolds Cahoon was about to leave us, and told us to look at him. He (Brother Cahoon) was on his knees and his arms were extended, his hands and wrists, head, face and neck down to his shoulders were as a piece of amber, clear and transparent, his blood having apparently left his veins. Upon the attention of the brethren being thus called to Brother Cahoon, the change seemed to pass away and Joseph said that in a few minutes more, Brother Cahoon would have left us, but he came to himself again." 

There are many more quotes by Joseph Smith and others, including scriptures in our standard works, who admonish every "least saint" to seek the same and that God is no respecter of persons. I respect those who choose to do so and also those who choose not to. We are free to choose and be given (or not) according to our belief (or unbelief), according to our desires. I believe those who testify they have seen Him and I respect those who prefer not to share their witness or prefer not to seek Christ's face while in the flesh (mortal probation).

[marc]

More from Joseph Smith:

God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him … from the least to the greatest. -- Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 3:380

7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

There are more.

[Matthew.B]

BKP's reasoning never made sense to me when he applied it to the apostles. It's part of the job of the apostles testify of the reality of Christ's resurrection. That is done most efficaciously when someone testified they have seen Him. I don't understand why an apostle would choose not to declare such a powerful witnesses to the world...

[DesertWonderer]

BKP's answer makes perfect sense to me. It is an extremely sacred experience and should be treated with the utmost of care. As an apostle he and his quorum do testify of Him in unmistakable ways IF the hearer is willing / able to hear. If it were spoken of as some wish it to be, no doubt it would be cheapened, ridiculed and referred to in less-than-reverent terms such as "face time with our Savior"--pearls before swine.

[briznian]

Am I one of the swine? Are you one of the swine? Who gets to determine who the swine are?

[marc]

If it were spoken of as some wish it to be, no doubt it would be cheapened, ridiculed and referred to in less-than-reverent terms such as "face time with our Savior"--pearls before swine.

I agree I could have used more sensitive wording, but I disagree with your judgment and I respect your opinion.

More quotes:

A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. TPJS, p. 137

Oliver Cowdery General Charge to the Twelve Apostles during a conference, You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days? . . .  The time is coming when you will be perfectly familiar with the things of God. . . . You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore call upon him in faith in mighty prayer till you prevail, for it is your duty and your privilege to bear such a testimony for yourselves. -Oliver Cowdery, (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... y-1835?p=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through theknowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us allthings that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faithvirtue; and to virtue knowledge;
 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperancepatience; and to patience godliness;
 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

-Peter exhorts us to make our calling and election sure. This is the sealing power spoken of by Paul in other places. – Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 149

-When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. – Joseph Smith TPJS, p. 150

Doctrine and Covenants 130:3

3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God, yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son?

Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their calling and election was made sure, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promised sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. – Joseph Smith, TPJS p. 298

1st key: Knowledge is the power of salvation. 2Nd key: Make your calling and election sure. 3Rd key: It is one thing to be on the mount and hear the excellent voice, etc., and another to hear the voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that kingdom. – Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 306

"We are members of the family of the Eternal Father. He is a glorified and exalted and eternal Being, having a resurrected body of flesh and bones. His name is God, and the kind of life he lives is God's life. His name is also Eternal, and the name of the kind of life he lives is eternal life. Eternal life is God's life, and God's life is eternal life. We are commanded to be perfect as he is perfect and to advance and progress until we become like him, or in other words, until we gain eternal life. Thus Joseph Smith said, "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (Teachings, pp. 346-47.) Christ our Lord has so obtained, thus enabling him to say to the faithful: "Ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father." (3 Ne. 28:10.)" (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.1, p.23 - p.24

There are more.

[rewcox]

I know someone who is concerned they will lose out on exaltation if they don't see Christ. If people get too anxious, they can push too hard and then get deceived.

Should you resign from the church, should you take your garments off, should you push hard against leaders, is it ok to have a beer?

Should you treat something sacred, sacred, like Alma 12? I think so.

Should you come to Christ, yes!

[marc]

When we understand the character of God, and know how to come to Him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us. -- Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:308.

I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness. -- Joseph Smith, TPJS p.364

[DesertWonderer]

Am I one of the swine? I have no idea; I know nothing about you. Are you one of the swine? Probably. Who gets to determine who the swine are? The Spirit.

Great questions. Who do you think Jesus was calling swine and dogs in the scripture below?

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

[diligently seeking]

Let me be bold. Until our knowledge of Christ shifts from head knowledge to heart understanding / becoming-- then Christ "knew/ knows us not." Meaning: where he is, there he desires for us to be also--but we can not be/go..!

Much resistance occurs with our spiritual maturation as LDS members and general body of non LDS Christians because rather than applying the unending clear message in the BofM, D&C, and N.T of *becoming* a new creature in Christ/ born of God/ mighty change of heart etc" we Instead are content with what we believe we know (head knowledge). Also, our sense of entitlement with our given religious memberships can cause apathy / all is well in Zion attitude. This very much results in wresting the word of God and stymies a most important & necessary "seeking" approach of being "anxiously engaged / hungering and thirsting after righteousness..." modern day prophets and ancient men of the same caliber have made it abundantly clear that eternal life is obtained through what occurs as a result of the re-birth. When this change occurs, one of the natural out growths of such change is a willingness to seek deeper into the mysteries of Godliness and to seek and obtain increased understanding and blessings by Jesus from where ever the spirit confirming source may spring from!

Love grows within the heart. Which when alowed to grow / through the "mighty change of heart" such growing pure love casts away fear and anxiously and rejoicingly has us pointed towards ALL truths of our Gracious Master. When we are left with head knowledge, entitlement feeling, tradition following (not aligned in the doctrine of Christ), the emotion of fear very much can and does direct us towards narrow spiritually limiting confines. Conversion conversion this Mighty change is what we're after. Be reminded of what it looks like through reading about the King Benjamins people's Mighty change / baptism of fire / receiving the Holy Ghost and being converted even transcending membership status and becoming actual saints through the atonement of Christ. Once we are simmerly converted, we then are In a more willing position to springboard forward seeking and obtaining deeper truths and blessings etc.

[Mark]

"Some truths and experiences are not lawful for man to utter in
the sense that it is not permitted or appropriate to speak of them, except as led and directed by the Holy
Spirit." DCBM, 3:84.

Sacred experiences given to Elder Packer or any other person for that matter are not given by the Lord to satisfy the idle curiosity of somebody else who hasn't done their own due diligence. It is frankly nobody's business (sign seekers included) what the Lord chooses to reveal to someone except for that very person who has paid the price to receive those revelatory experiences. They don't owe anybody anything when it comes to personal disclosure of their sacred experiences. I think it's rude to even ask others about their very personal sacred experiences. Get your own! No cheat sheets allowed.

[marc]

"Some truths and experiences are not lawful for man to utter in
the sense that it is not permitted or appropriate to speak of them, except as led and directed by the Holy
Spirit." DCBM, 3:84.

For anyone interested, the above quote is from a Book of Mormon commentary written by two BYU professors, Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet.

[Mark]

"Some truths and experiences are not lawful for man to utter in
the sense that it is not permitted or appropriate to speak of them, except as led and directed by the Holy
Spirit." DCBM, 3:84.

For anyone interested, the above quote is from a Book of Mormon commentary written by two BYU professors, Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet.

30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.

31 And it came to pass that he went again a little way off and prayed unto the Father;

32 And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed.

33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.

34 Nevertheless, so great and marvelous were the words which he prayed that they cannot be written, neither can they be uttered by man.

[marc]

Good scripture, Mark! There's also Paul's experience:

2 Corinthians 12: 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

These and other similar experience do not, however, negate what Joseph Smith explicitly declared and taught, which I quoted above. They do not negate what Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, the brother of Jared and many others declared as witnesses. Again, I respect those who heed the Lord in not revealing what is not lawful to utter. And it is clear what indeed is lawful to utter and has been uttered over and over again throughout the dispensations and will be uttered until the great coming of our Savior at the last day.

[rewcox]

"Some truths and experiences are not lawful for man to utter in
the sense that it is not permitted or appropriate to speak of them, except as led and directed by the Holy
Spirit." DCBM, 3:84.

For anyone interested, the above quote is from a Book of Mormon commentary written by two BYU professors, Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet.

marc you missed Emer, Ether 9:
22 And after he had anointed Coriantum to reign in his stead he lived four years, and he saw peace in the land; yea, and he even saw the Son of Righteousness, and did rejoice and glory in his day; and he died in peace.

Also from last conference:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

[marc]

"Some truths and experiences are not lawful for man to utter in
the sense that it is not permitted or appropriate to speak of them, except as led and directed by the Holy
Spirit." DCBM, 3:84.

For anyone interested, the above quote is from a Book of Mormon commentary written by two BYU professors, Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet.

marc you missed Emer, Ether 9:
22 And after he had anointed Coriantum to reign in his stead he lived four years, and he saw peace in the land; yea, and he even saw the Son of Righteousness, and did rejoice and glory in his day; and he died in peace.

Also from last conference:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

Thank you, rewcox. I know about Emer. Enos also alluded to the same and more ("seen and heard").

[Mark]

Good scripture, Mark! There's also Paul's experience:

2 Corinthians 12: 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

These and other similar experience do not, however, negate what Joseph Smith explicitly declared and taught, which I quoted above. They do not negate what Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, the brother of Jared and many others declared as witnesses. Again, I respect those who heed the Lord in not revealing what is not lawful to utter. And it is clear what indeed is lawful to utter and has been uttered over and over again throughout the dispensations and will be uttered until the great coming of our Savior at the last day.

Marc we are talking about 2 different issues here with all due respect. No one disputes the call given to all Saints to seek ones standing before the Lord. That is not the issue in question here. The appropriateness of public disclosure of those sacred revelatory experiences is the issue at hand. Unless the Spirit expressly okays it those sacred experiences should be held sacred and not thrown out there indiscriminately to be trampled upon by swine like people. Joseph as the Dispensational Prophet had a Priesthood stewardship responsibility to disclose spiritual experiences for the good of the body. We as members of that body are not under that same stewardship responsibility in most cases and need to protect our spiritual jewels from tarnish and abuse as the spirit directs. Of course there are times when it is appropriate to discuss these wonderful experiences openly but always under direction from the Holy Ghost who gives the stamp of approval to either do so or keep quiet.

[marc]

Marc we are talking about 2 different issues here with all due respect. No one disputes the call given to all Saints to seek ones standing before the Lord. That is not the issue in question here. The appropriateness of public disclosure of those sacred revelatory experiences is the issue at hand. Unless the Spirit expressly okays it those sacred experiences should be held sacred and not thrown out there indiscriminately to be trampled upon by swine like people. Joseph as the Dispensational Prophet had a Priesthood stewardship responsibility to disclose spiritual experiences for the good of the body. We as members of that body are not under that same stewardship responsibility in most cases and need to protect our spiritual jewels from tarnish and abuse as the spirit directs. Of course there are times when it is appropriate to discuss these wonderful experiences openly but always under direction from the Holy Ghost who gives the stamp of approval to either do so or keep quiet.

I agree. I would also add as directed by the Lord personally. Thank you, Mark.

[creator]

For me, this is the answer/solution to this topic/discussion (as quoted previously):

Oliver Cowdery General Charge to the Twelve Apostles during a conference, You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days? . . .  The time is coming when you will be perfectly familiar with the things of God. . . . You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore call upon him in faith in mighty prayer till you prevail, for it is your duty and your privilege to bear such a testimony for yourselves. -Oliver Cowdery, (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... y-1835?p=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

[marc]

Agreed, but to clarify further, the two issues go hand in hand. Those who ask, seek and knock, to whom it is opened, typically are charged to then bare witness and to warn. And that is where dividing lines have been drawn throughout scriptural history. Then there are the Sherems and Korihors who complicate things even further. It is why the Lord said that strait and narrow is the way and few be there that find it. Thank you to those who replied to me. This is a good, non contentious thread.

[rewcox]

Is this not one of the greatest chapters in the Book of Mormon?

1 And it came to pass that the days of Ether were in the days of Coriantumr; and Coriantumr was king over all the land.

2 And Ether was a prophet of the Lord; wherefore Ether came forth in the days of Coriantumr, and began to prophesy unto the people, for he could not be restrained because of the Spirit of the Lord which was in him.

3 For he did cry from the morning, even until the going down of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance lest they should be destroyed, saying unto them that by faith all things are fulfilled--

4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

5 And it came to pass that Ether did prophesy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

7 For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.

9 Wherefore, ye may also have hope, and be partakers of the gift, if ye will but have faith.

10 Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the holy order of God.

11 Wherefore, by faith was the law of Moses given. But in the gift of his Son hath God prepared a more excellent way; and it is by faith that it hath been fulfilled.

12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.

13 Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the prison to tumble to the earth.

14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

15 Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.

16 Yea, and even all they who wrought miracles wrought them by faith, even those who were before Christ and also those who were after.

17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should not taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.

19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad.

20 And behold, we have seen in this record that one of these was the brother of Jared; for so great was his faith in God, that when God put forth his finger he could not hide it from the sight of the brother of Jared, because of his word which he had spoken unto him, which word he had obtained by faith.

21 And after the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the promise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the veil.

22 And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the promise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ.

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me--the fountain of all righteousness.

29 And I, Moroni, having heard these words, was comforted, and said: O Lord, thy righteous will be done, for I know that thou workest unto the children of men according to their faith;

30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove--and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

31 For thus didst thou manifest thyself unto thy disciples; for after they had faith, and did speak in thy name, thou didst show thyself unto them in great power.

32 And I also remember that thou hast said that thou hast prepared a house for man, yea, even among the mansions of thy Father, in which man might have a more excellent hope; wherefore man must hope, or he cannot receive an inheritance in the place which thou hast prepared.

33 And again, I remember that thou hast said that thou hast loved the world, even unto the laying down of thy life for the world, that thou mightest take it again to prepare a place for the children of men.

34 And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father.

35 Wherefore, I know by this thing which thou hast said, that if the Gentiles have not charity, because of our weakness, that thou wilt prove them, and take away their talent, yea, even that which they have received, and give unto them who shall have more abundantly.

36 And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity.

37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

40 And only a few have I written, because of my weakness in writing.

41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

Agreed, but to clarify further, the two issues go hand in hand. Those who ask, seek and knock, to whom it is opened, typically are charged to then bare witness and to warn. And that is where dividing lines have been drawn throughout scriptural history. Then there are the Sherems and Korihors who complicate things even further. It is why the Lord said that strait and narrow is the way and few be there that find it. Thank you to those who replied to me. This is a good, non contentious thread.

[marc]

There are so many wonderful chapters in the Book of Mormon. That one is for sure, rewcox!