Gender Orientation, Biological vs. Behavioral

[zionminded]

This should make for an interesting discussion.

History has largely cast homosexuality as a deviant behavior. In the not too recent past, homosexuals were shunned from society publicly, and sought companionship recklessly through the dark network of gay bars and secret encounters. Changes in social equality (largely driven by women's rights, then the civil rights movement) changed the way sexual orientation was viewed, except for the biological or behavioral determinants to what was classified as a mental disorder (Drescher, 2010).

Today, science has provided a great deal of insight into what causes homosexuality. Many even feel that the way we approach Gender Identity Disorder (GID) lacks the latest understanding from modern day science (Ross, 2015). Recently (as in the past 10 years), biologists and geneticists have discovered that while the biology for human sexuality is complex, biology is at the very root of sexual orientation (Balthazart, 2011; Shively, 2014). While a single "gay gene" hasn't been identified, researchers have concluded rather solidly that homosexuality is biologically, not behavioral (Haider-Markel & Joslyn, 2008; Balthazart 2011). In addition, we now know that sexual orientation is on a spectrum. One is not fully gay or straight but many people (many) are somewhere between in what is called sexual fluidity, measured by the Kinsey scale (Diamond, 2008) [Curious about you? Visit http://vistriai.com/kinseyscaletest/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;].

The LDS church's positions on homosexuality has evolved (but lagged American trends). The rhetoric against homosexuality was strongly in opposition to the behavior, especially during the 90s when social changes were changing, and evolved recently to accept that it was biological, but still sinful (Cragun, 2015). Today the church runs a website called http://mormonsandgays.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that ilistrates many of the current positions. However, many strong cultural positions still exist, especially evolving around the topic of celestial marriage and homosexuality, the family proclamation and socially conservative supported issues such as gay marriage.

So why do we have gay people? Are they genetic mistakes? Are they behavioral disorders? The result of childhood abuses? These are still being debated, even after such strong scientific evidences. I could write a lot about this, but Id recommend that you listen to this pod cast. Its long, but goes into a LOT of detail not worth retyping. http://mormonmatters.org/2015/11/23/308 ... l-factors/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; click the Play button, or find it on iTunes here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mor ... 64952?mt=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Episode 308 and 309 ALSO See episdees 310, 311 that are parts 3 and 4). Its nearly 4 hours of audio.

Some interesting theories exist why we do have homosexuality in our society. After all, Darwinian evolution would suggest survival pressures would eliminate it. There are a few strong theories. My favorite biological one for men, is that women build up antibodies toward male embryos, and literally attack their gene expression. There is statistical evidence to show this, that the more male babies a women has, the increase in the propensity to be gay (Blanchard, 2001; Jones, 2013).

A popular anthropological theory suggests that having a gay man in a family was an asset. In the bible we read about eunuchs. Many believe that these were actually homosexual men, and that they were an advantage to added security and prosperity for a family, because there was no risk to the patriarch of the family, but the man's women were secured, but not at risk from another heterosexual domestic predator (Blackwood, 2013). So because it was beneficial, it was genetically passed on.

Anyway. I HIGHLY-HIGHLY recommend the podcast links above. Why did I post this? Because I want to help open your mind to the possibility that homosexuality isn't a genetic mistake of God. That our traditional views of homosexuality are deeply cultural, and lack divine objectivity and love. Step one, is to understand the truth behind the biological determinants of homosexuality and the misguided cultural belief that gayness exists because of behavioral antecedents such as abuse or gay, gay porn, or grooming by gay parents.

Please keep an open mind, and reply respectfully. As you get older, you could have a gay child, and will have gay grandchildren, if you already don't.

I tried to grab some good citations for the facts I've layed out. I type all this out in about 30 min, so the references may not be the best ones available, but should be enough so you don't think I'm making this stuff up.

Oh lastly, as a therapist, we study this stuff., so I look at this professionally, not just subjectively as a self proclaimed socially-liberal minded Mormon.

ZM



Balthazart, J. (2011). The biology of homosexuality. Oxford University Press.

Blackwood, E. (2013). The many faces of homosexuality: Anthropological approaches to homosexual behavior. Routledge.

Blanchard, R. (2001). Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality. Hormones and Behavior, 40(2), 105-114.

Cragun, R. T., Williams, E., & Sumerau, J. E. (2015). From Sodomy to Sympathy: LDS Elites’ Discursive Construction of Homosexuality Over Time. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 54(2), 291-310.

Diamond, L. M. (2008). Sexual fluidity. John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Drescher, J. (2010). Queer diagnoses: Parallels and contrasts in the history of homosexuality, gender variance, and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Archives of sexual behavior, 39(2), 427-460.

Haider-Markel, D. P., & Joslyn, M. R. (2008). Beliefs About the Origins of Homosexuality and Support For Gay Rights An Empirical Test of Attribution Theory. Public Opinion Quarterly, 72(2), 291-310.

Jones, M. B., & Blanchard, R. (2013). Birth Order and Male Homosexuality: Extension of Slater’s Index. Human Biology, 70(4), 9.

Ross, C. A. (2015). Commentary: Problems with the sexual disorders sections of DSM-5. Journal of child sexual abuse, 24(2), 195-201.

Shively, M. (2014). Origins of sexuality and homosexuality. Routledge.

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

I believe that there are many causes for someone to be gay, and aren't the same for everyone. Some may have a biological component that is "activated" due to some trigger. I know a gay woman who was interested in men all her life, but had an abusive father. She now lives as a gay woman. I know a gay male who has switched back and forth between hetro and homo all his life, but showed signs of being gay at a very young age.

Even from a purely secular standpoint, someone who believes in the current theory of evolution would have to see homosexuality as a genetic mistake. One of the most basic biological impulses after self preservation is procreation. If we are indeed programmed to propagate the species, a biologically produced impulse to act in a way that can't do that is a genetic anomaly.

[zionminded]

I believe that there are many causes for someone to be gay, and aren't the same for everyone. Some may have a biological component that is "activated" due to some trigger. I know a gay woman who was interested in men all her life, but had an abusive father. She now lives as a gay woman. I know a gay male who has switched back and forth between hetro and homo all his life, but showed signs of being gay at a very young age.

Even from a purely secular standpoint, someone who believes in the current theory of evolution would have to see homosexuality as a genetic mistake. One of the most basic biological impulses after self preservation is procreation. If we are indeed programmed to propagate the species, a biologically produced impulse to act in a way that can't do that is a genetic anomaly.

As I suggested, yes, its a spectrum, some people can "switch". Please listen to the pod cast then see what that information does to you're current belief system.

I should have noted, and will do so now, that conversion therapy or reparative therapy never works, and is extremely harmful (Beckstead, 2012). [there are many studies that show this]

Beckstead, A. L. (2012). Can we change sexual orientation?. Archives of sexual behavior, 41(1), 121-134.

[Ezra]

Nature I think provided the best answer. the only animals that have any gay tendencys are animals that are closely associated to humans. Which suggests that as humans become more perverse and stray from God and nature that insanity spreads also to the animals closest to humans.

Animals out of the reach of humans insanity do as nature or God intended.

Gay is natures way of ending its insanity by ending that blood line.

As we continue to stray from God and his ways. We will continue to see an increase of insanity and gay people.

[Ezra]

Sin is not from God. And God has defined gay as sin.

To see if we will sin is part of
The test.

To see if we judge and persecute sinners is also part of the test.

[zionminded]

Nature I think provided the best answer. the only animals that have any gay tendencys are animals that are closely associated to humans. Which suggests that as humans become more perverse and stray from God and nature that insanity spreads also to the animals closest to humans.

Animals out of the reach of humans insanity do as nature or God intended.

Gay is natures way of ending its insanity by ending that blood line.

As we continue to stray from God and his ways. We will continue to see an increase of insanity and gay people.

Yeah, these are also common misbeliefs that attempt to support old schools of thinking. Here are two books I found in 1 minute. Both peer reviewed, written by PhDs, that would disagree with you, providing a vast amount of evidence in many species with homosexual behavior. Listen to the podcast link above, then please reply with some evidence to support your bias.

Bagemihl, B. (1999). Biological exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity. Macmillan.

Poiani, A. (2010). Animal homosexuality: a biosocial perspective. Cambridge University Press.

[Ezra]

The learnings and precepts of men don't interests me. And is why there are only a few humble followers of Christ.

2 nephi 28:14

Show me in scriptures your belief. Use the words of God to support your belief. I can give you pages of quotes denouncing the precept of men edu found in public schools and collages.

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

Nature I think provided the best answer. the only animals that have any gay tendencys are animals that are closely associated to humans. Which suggests that as humans become more perverse and stray from God and nature that insanity spreads also to the animals closest to humans.

Animals out of the reach of humans insanity do as nature or God intended.

Gay is natures way of ending its insanity by ending that blood line.

As we continue to stray from God and his ways. We will continue to see an increase of insanity and gay people.

Yeah, these are also common misbeliefs that attempt to support old schools of thinking. Here are two books I found in 1 minute. Both peer reviewed, written by PhDs, that would disagree with you, providing a vast amount of evidence in many species with homosexual behavior. Listen to the podcast link above, then please reply with some evidence to support your bias.

Bagemihl, B. (1999). Biological exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity. Macmillan.

Poiani, A. (2010). Animal homosexuality: a biosocial perspective. Cambridge University Press.

What a million PhDs say holds no comparison to what the prophets of God say.

[zionminded]

Sin is not from God. And God has defined gay as sin.

To see if we will sin is part of
The test.

To see if we judge and persecute sinners is also part of the test.

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All, the above reply by Ezra represents a good example of 2nd Stage of James Fowler's Stages of Faith, and is representative of Dr David Hawkins Level of Consciences at "Fear" https://firedragonwisdom.files.wordpres ... rforce.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

[Ezra]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

But Christ even said that to have lustfull thoughts about your neighbor was sin.

[Ezra]

Sin is not from God. And God has defined gay as sin.

To see if we will sin is part of
The test.

To see if we judge and persecute sinners is also part of the test.

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All, the above reply by Ezra represents a good example of 2nd Stage of James Fowler's Stages of Faith, and is representative of Dr David Hawkins Level of Consciences at "Fear" https://firedragonwisdom.files.wordpres ... rforce.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I work with gay people quite often and love and help them all the same as I do anyone. I'm a councilor at a wilderness youth program. Thinking is the key to behaviors. Change the thinking change the behaviors. It's easy to teach how to change thinking. But hard for most people to implement that into their own lifes. Because it take dedication to garner your thoughts. Most people are too lazy to have the desire to.

[zionminded]

Nature I think provided the best answer. the only animals that have any gay tendencys are animals that are closely associated to humans. Which suggests that as humans become more perverse and stray from God and nature that insanity spreads also to the animals closest to humans.

Animals out of the reach of humans insanity do as nature or God intended.

Gay is natures way of ending its insanity by ending that blood line.

As we continue to stray from God and his ways. We will continue to see an increase of insanity and gay people.

Yeah, these are also common misbeliefs that attempt to support old schools of thinking. Here are two books I found in 1 minute. Both peer reviewed, written by PhDs, that would disagree with you, providing a vast amount of evidence in many species with homosexual behavior. Listen to the podcast link above, then please reply with some evidence to support your bias.

Bagemihl, B. (1999). Biological exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity. Macmillan.

Poiani, A. (2010). Animal homosexuality: a biosocial perspective. Cambridge University Press.

What a million PhDs say holds no comparison to what the prophets of God say.

Really?

The problem with this line of thinking, is that unless God tells YOU, you're going to get that information from another man who's bias is subjectively strong. Religious has done many, many things in the name of God contrary to many scientific principles, now known to be false from those religions. I'm not suggesting science knows everything at all. However, ignorance is no excuse. It is VERY commonly known that there are many expressions of homosexual behaviors in many animal species.

Here is a video for you to watch, that may be easier than a book to read, as clearly you have a aversive reaction to learning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFeXwKnCUNI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[zionminded]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

Can you explain how same gender sex in a committed relationship with fidelity is a sin? If you say because God said so, you don't have an answer.

[light-one]

Is this part of Satan's plan to get people to accept homosexuality?

Why did I post this? Because I want to help open your mind to the possibility that homosexuality isn't a genetic mistake of God. That our traditional views of homosexuality are deeply cultural, and lack divine objectivity and love. Step one, is to understand the truth behind the biological determinants of homosexuality and the misguided cultural belief that gayness exists because of behavioral antecedents such as abuse or gay, gay porn, or grooming by gay parents.

The trouble with quoting from books written by Darwin or other psycho anti-creationists is that while they all agree that we should disregard God and be tolerant and accepting of the queer ways of Satanism, none of them are Prophets, Seers, or Revelators.

This is how humanity is destroyed. By evil people getting followers of God to accept sin and be tolerant by placing a guilt trip on them about how Jesus may have handled something. God gave us the Sodom and Gomorrah story for a reason. Not to be tolerant or accepting, but to avoid it at all costs and never look back.

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

But Christ even said that to have lustfull thoughts about your neighbor was sin.

I should have said same sex attraction, not desires. I differentiate between attraction and lust.

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

Can you explain how same gender sex in a committed relationship with fidelity is a sin? If you say because God said so, you don't have an answer.

Do you believe in sin, and if so what would you define as constituting a sin?

[Ezra]

Nature I think provided the best answer. the only animals that have any gay tendencys are animals that are closely associated to humans. Which suggests that as humans become more perverse and stray from God and nature that insanity spreads also to the animals closest to humans.

Animals out of the reach of humans insanity do as nature or God intended.

Gay is natures way of ending its insanity by ending that blood line.

As we continue to stray from God and his ways. We will continue to see an increase of insanity and gay people.

Yeah, these are also common misbeliefs that attempt to support old schools of thinking. Here are two books I found in 1 minute. Both peer reviewed, written by PhDs, that would disagree with you, providing a vast amount of evidence in many species with homosexual behavior. Listen to the podcast link above, then please reply with some evidence to support your bias.

Bagemihl, B. (1999). Biological exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity. Macmillan.

Poiani, A. (2010). Animal homosexuality: a biosocial perspective. Cambridge University Press.

What a million PhDs say holds no comparison to what the prophets of God say.

Really?

The problem with this line of thinking, is that unless God tells YOU, you're going to get that information from another man who's bias is subjectively strong. Religious has done many, many things in the name of God contrary to many scientific principles, now known to be false from those religions. I'm not suggesting science knows everything at all. However, ignorance is no excuse. It is VERY commonly known that there are many expressions of homosexual behaviors in many animal species.

Here is a video for you to watch, that may be easier than a book to read, as clearly you have a aversive reaction to learning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFeXwKnCUNI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why is it that many are called few chosen?

What place of education do you know of that fits the description in 2 nephi 26:20?

Why is it that we are told time and time again not to trust in the arm of flesh?

What is forced priestcraft warned about in scripture in our day?


Important questions. And all point to the same thing. People most people have placed their trust in the wisdom of men and the things of the world over God.

[zionminded]

Sin is not from God. And God has defined gay as sin.

To see if we will sin is part of
The test.

To see if we judge and persecute sinners is also part of the test.

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All, the above reply by Ezra represents a good example of 2nd Stage of James Fowler's Stages of Faith, and is representative of Dr David Hawkins Level of Consciences at "Fear" https://firedragonwisdom.files.wordpres ... rforce.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I work with gay people quite often and love and help them all the same as I do anyone. I'm a councilor at a wilderness youth program. Thinking is the key to behaviors. Change the thinking change the behaviors. It's easy to teach how to change thinking. But hard for most people to implement that into their own lifes. Because it take dedication to garner your thoughts. Most people are too lazy to have the desire to.

Please read the statistics on the effectiveness of reparative therapy.

http://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-a ... ve-therapy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://psc.dss.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML ... nging.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/si ... n-therapy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know you won't read it them.. but if you're a councilor working with youth, you deserve to learn about this.

[Ezra]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

But Christ even said that to have lustfull thoughts about your neighbor was sin.

I should have said same sex attraction, not desires. I differentiate between attraction and lust.

I don't really see how they are any diffrent??

[zionminded]

Is this part of Satan's plan to get people to accept homosexuality?

Why did I post this? Because I want to help open your mind to the possibility that homosexuality isn't a genetic mistake of God. That our traditional views of homosexuality are deeply cultural, and lack divine objectivity and love. Step one, is to understand the truth behind the biological determinants of homosexuality and the misguided cultural belief that gayness exists because of behavioral antecedents such as abuse or gay, gay porn, or grooming by gay parents.

The trouble with quoting from books written by Darwin or other psycho anti-creationists is that while they all agree that we should disregard God and be tolerant and accepting of the queer ways of Satanism, none of them are Prophets, Seers, or Revelators.

This is how humanity is destroyed. By evil people getting followers of God to accept sin and be tolerant by placing a guilt trip on them about how Jesus may have handled something. God gave us the Sodom and Gomorrah story for a reason. Not to be tolerant or accepting, but to avoid it at all costs and never look back.

All, this is very much Stage 2 of Folwer's stages of faith.

[zionminded]

Yeah, these are also common misbeliefs that attempt to support old schools of thinking. Here are two books I found in 1 minute. Both peer reviewed, written by PhDs, that would disagree with you, providing a vast amount of evidence in many species with homosexual behavior. Listen to the podcast link above, then please reply with some evidence to support your bias.

Bagemihl, B. (1999). Biological exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity. Macmillan.

Poiani, A. (2010). Animal homosexuality: a biosocial perspective. Cambridge University Press.

What a million PhDs say holds no comparison to what the prophets of God say.

Really?

The problem with this line of thinking, is that unless God tells YOU, you're going to get that information from another man who's bias is subjectively strong. Religious has done many, many things in the name of God contrary to many scientific principles, now known to be false from those religions. I'm not suggesting science knows everything at all. However, ignorance is no excuse. It is VERY commonly known that there are many expressions of homosexual behaviors in many animal species.

Here is a video for you to watch, that may be easier than a book to read, as clearly you have a aversive reaction to learning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFeXwKnCUNI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why is it that many are called few chosen?

What place of education do you know of that fits the description in 2 nephi 26:20?

Why is it that we are told time and time again not to trust in the arm of flesh?

What is forced priestcraft warned about in scripture in our day?


Important questions. And all point to the same thing. People most people have placed their trust in the wisdom of men and the things of the world over God.

https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-stren ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ezra, the Lord wants you to get an education, learning is a good thing. PLEASE listen to the pod cast by a BYU professor.

[zionminded]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

Can you explain how same gender sex in a committed relationship with fidelity is a sin? If you say because God said so, you don't have an answer.

Do you believe in sin, and if so what would you define as constituting a sin?

Yes I do! Sin is something that results in the separation between you and God or you and others, and stops or slows your progression.

Can you explain how same gender sex in a committed relationship with fidelity is a sin?

[Ezra]

Reparative therapy is not what I'm talking about or do. I teach them how to think. Not what to think. I teach them their own personal God given power to control their own thoughts feelings and emotions. I teach them the power of choice And how to create their own environment of their own choosing by that choice. And test those choices to find their path.

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

It seems that LDS advocates for the gay community believe that if science can prove a biological component to homosexuality, then this somehow justifies someone's homosexual activity. We know this isn't the case as we've been told many times having same sex desires IS NOT a sin, but acting on them is.

But Christ even said that to have lustfull thoughts about your neighbor was sin.

I should have said same sex attraction, not desires. I differentiate between attraction and lust.

I don't really see how they are any diffrent??

I can find someone attractive without lusting after them